Talk:Soubrette

"Limitation myth"

I've moved the text of this section to this talk page because I think it needs a bit of discussion.

First, I'm not sure if this topic is of sufficient import to discuss in the article. I've been around professional vocalists, both popular and classical, and musicologists who focus on vocal music and I've never known any of them to have the opinion below. Among people who don't follow the technical points of vocal music, most I've met have never even heard the word "soubrette," so they certainly don't have an opinion about it.

It's true that whoever worked on this page before I showed up was apparently under the impression that soubrettes had limited ptich ranges, but I think I've made it quite explicit that that's not true. Finally, the whole section is rather overly defensive for an encyclopedia. It sounds rather personal.

Now, if consensus holds that this section should be put back in the article, it still needs to be cleaned up. It has some grammar problems, some possible factual problems (to me it implies that a soubrette can be an alto, which just isn't so), and of course there's the defensive thing. --George 23:21, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Some, particularly popular music enthusiasts are under the mistaken impression that there is a limitation or a badge of shame to be worn when classified as a soubrette. The classification soubrette is aligned with vocal weight, not fach. Like the countertenor, a soubrette is a voice type (lyric vs. dramatic or spinto), not a particular vocal class (soprano vs. alto). Since music as of late has been written in a higher tessitura, sopranos and tenors have been more reverred than the more common baritone and mezzo. However, not having to reach extreme altitude does not recluse a singer from good vocal form. In ''Carmen'', a nezzo-soprano is required to execute trills, runs and other vocal theatrics. And a soubrette may be required to sing coloratura, or heavily ornamate (pop: ad lib) the music instead of merely executing it one for one. A singer may sing one piece of literature in a soubrette voice and reach extreme coloratura (vocal altitude) in another, thus classifying a singer as a soubrette does not guarantee a lack of ability in vocal altitude. Kathleen Battle and Ashanti can vocalize well in the octave above Soprano C; both can be classified as a soubrette.

Sorry, I wrote this in a rath. In the pop world, it seems the soubrette is thought of to be range challenged, on Britney's page for example, is she a lyric soprano or only a soubrette. The implication that a soubrette is not on full par as a lyric soprano. Incredulous, I tire of it, even though I support her as a strong example of a pop soubrette ALL THE WAY (mainly because I can think of songs were she sings soubrette-esque). However, most of the other pop examples just there because they sound like little girls. J.Lo? Hilary Duff? Lumidee? The last can't carry a tune with the Lake Michigan. Curious, Paula Abdul, and Ashanti aren't on the list? People won't put her on the list because she's a lyric coloratura, but Kathleen Battle and Elisabeth Schwarzkopf are (in the true, classical proper sense) Off my soapbox, I go :-) Antares33712 03:50, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This needs an overhaul

This page is a minor mess. To begin with, the history of "soubrette" is absent. "Soubrette" originated from the name of a sort of stock character in the plays of people like Moliere and his contemporaries. This character type was used in opera, too, and thus the role of the soubrette - but it had little to do with voice type or range originally. None of this is mentioned in the article at all.

As for the voice type of that name, the article is just wrong. It in no way implies a limited range; in opera, at least, most soubrettes are simply lyric sopranos. Rather, it implies a certain girlish quality to the voice, appropriate for "soubrette" roles. (Louise-Rosalie Dugazon - for whom Wikipedia has no entry - is the classic example.) It can also imply roles appropriate for that voice, e.g., Papagena - a classic soubrette role which, note, ascends to A5, above the ostensible top listed in this article.

Finally, deciding on which popular singer is or isn't a soubrette is, in my opinion, just impossible. There is a great gulf between the vocal tradition in which the term "soubrette" arose and singers like Britney Spears. To my mind, it makes no sense to make suc comparisons. It seems, however, that some editors of this article are insistent on doing such. Fine, but this should be based on a correct understanding of the word "soubrette," which the article currently lacks.

Point: I'm posting this here to elicit comments. If I don't hear anything, I'm going to reconfigure the article to make it more in keeping with other, authoritative sources on this topic. George

Found her. She's in Wikipedia as Louise-Rosalie Lefebvre. Wallie 05:29, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a real soubrette?

Now they've changed Hilary Duff's profile to be something other than "soubrette", as they did earlier for Britney Spears. Is there any singer who's legitimately a soubrette, or are all of them subject to interpretation that results in them being classified as not a "real" soubrette after all? *Dan* 19:11, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

Yes. Kathleen Battle is a soubrette as are many other singers. Wallie 20:52, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Tone, maybe not soubrette

Brittney Spears exhibits a vocal technique I have not heard discussed, but appears to be much since copied. That is, the "groan" a kind of throat vibrato that expesses passion. It was there in her first single. Is there a name for it?

Soubrette in Pop Music

I have done a bit of research on this. Most dictionaries suggest this is a role rather than a type of singing voice, eg,

sou·brette (s-brt) n. 1. a. A saucy, coquettish, intriguing maidservant in comedies or comic opera. b. An actress or a singer taking such a part. 2. A young woman regarded as flirtatious or frivolous.

To say that a pop singer fits into any of these definitions is really stretching the definition. Wallie 14:47, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]