Talk:Charismatic authority

Early talk

Is this confined to politics only? Why not to e.g. religion? Andries 19:47, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Good point. The origin of this idea in sociology is largely via Max Weber, who generalised the idea of charismatic authority in religion to other domains such as politics. I should put in a brief statement to this effect. BrendanH 09:09, Apr 30, 2004 (UTC)

I have removed Stalin who came to power via tricks in the Communist party, not because he was so popular, and was more a bureaucrat and reigned by fear and was obeyed. Later he created a personality cult but that doesn't make him a charismatic leader. Lenin would be a better example. Andries 18:39, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I guess it can be argued this way. I will leave it to others to decide if this is so, I am concerned more with Weber then Stalin. I can expand the entry on Weber's def of charismatic authority - and please not that ATM there are no entries at all on the traditional authority nor legal authority.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:48, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Charismatic authority in religion

If we have Charismatic authority in politics section, why not have religious? Lots of prophets fit into charismatic authority type (if not all), right? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 23:22, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Nice job with religious leader selection Andries. I have now started Traditional authority and Rational-legal authority to expand on Max Weber theme. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 21:56, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Charasmatic leaders are only charismatic because of their context

I read somewhere that charismatic leasers only happen to be charismatic because of special social and historical circumstances. Not always in the first place because of their personal traits. I do not have an English referenced source for this but if somebody can find a reference then I would appreciate it if this included in the article because I believe it to be true. E.g. Hitler was charismatic only because of very special circumstances i.e. humiliating, unexpected defeat in WWI, period of hyperinflation that ruined people's savings, Versailles treaty etc. Not only because he was eloquent. Andries 22:35, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Edits by Zappaz

Including such persons such as Jim Jones and the saint Sai Baba nicely illustrates the diversity of the charismatic leaders. Andries 10:02, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Jim Jones is notable, at least notorious. I mean how can you seriously deny that? Andries 10:02, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Sai Baba is notable too. Ask user:Lordsuryaofhrophire. I find 51,000 google hits for this guy. See also Sai_Baba#An_overview Andries 10:02, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I think you are right that what I originally wrote about Barker may have been too strong worded but now you make it too weak, I think. She was strong worded about it, if I remember it well. Do you have the original quote? Thanks Andries 10:02, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You can add these, but not under the same category with of Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad. I mean, that is obvious isnt' it? And for your information, charisma is not a vituperative. --Zappaz 14:59, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hmm, why obvious? I am far from experts on them, but they are all charismatic religous leaders, right? Sure, some are world famous and some are not, but that does not disqualify them from our section, I think. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 15:32, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This article needs serious NPOV work

The charismatic religious leaders section is not pretty. What is the criteria used to judge those in that list?

Random Wiki editing chaos I'd say. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 14:38, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The political charismatic leaders section, includes text such as "the beautiful wife of" and "revolutionary turned dictator" and "enigmatic philosopher". etc. Hardy encyclopedic.

Hmm. Maybe. Feel free to fix it. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 14:38, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Including Sai Baba and Jim Jones as "less famous leaders" is indeed strange. I have removed it.

Basically, I object to this arbitrary taxonomy. These lists need to either go away or be seriously cleaned up. --Zappaz 05:00, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I object to removing them, I think they are fairly good. Of course, feel free to clean them up as you see this should be done. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 14:38, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

We could rename it as examples. I think it is important to show the diversity of the phenomenon so that is why I think it is important that people like Jim Jones are included. I oppose the inclusion of Vivekananda because his authority was partially based on his lineage with Ramakrishna i.e. not a pure form of charismatic authority. I do not see a good reason for your removals of Sai Baba and Jesus ~~Jim Jones~~ who had both pure forms of charismatic authority. Andries 06:06, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

As I don't feel I am competent in those examples, I'd abstain from voicing any opinion on who should be and who shouldn't be here. I did create the 'less famous' list to solve similar problem earlier, hopefully you can tweak it so it works for you. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 14:38, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This taxonomy, as I said, is totaly arbitray. As I said, tis article needs serious work. I am pretty busy now with other articles, but I will visit this one soon to NPOV it and clean up if nobody else does ist. I will add the cleanup tag in the meantime, --Zappaz 15:25, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I can not say that I often agree with Zappaz but when giving examples one should state to what extent they have the other two authorities e.g. Hitler first had only charismatic auth. but became chancellor and then also had rational-legal auth. This should be stated. There are some pure charismatic types such as Sai Baba, Jim Jones, and Sathya Sai Baba. Andries 17:41, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Weber noted in his research that it is nearly impossible to find a historical example on any pure dominance/authority, as they always exist in some mixed combinations. The charismatic type is just a theoretical ideal type. A theory - as are the traditional and rational-legal types. So any examples we give are obviously given under assumption that they are only partialy charismatic and partialy sth else. I guess we can imagine lists like 'mostly charismatic/minor charismatic' here or create a separate article with examples, linked from all three authority articles? I think we have to ask ourselves if we want just a simple list with few non-controversial charismatic examples, or a complicated list dicussing how charismatic, traditional and r-l any of our examples are? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:41, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Piotr, personally I would prefer a complicated list. Please note that the founders of religions and NRMs are often the ideal type. With regards to the religious figuresm, Vivekananda, Jim Jones, and Hendrik the eighth, Martin Luther and Calvin were not ideal types. The rest is, I think, please correct me if I am wrong. I know all of them quite well except for Hendrik the eigth. Andries 19:11, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

May be a short, complicated list in this article would be the best idea. Not a separate article for example. Andries 19:15, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'd be happy to see the results of your work then. Just a word of advice: my wiki experience shows that when a list gets long (half of the article or more) it is generally a good idea to move it to an entirely new article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:31, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Cleanup

This was referred to my Desk, and so I've started to edit it. I felt that the text was sufficiently disorganized enough to warrant a major re-write, but I would love opinions. I just finished the first version, and I'm going to go over the examples list and tune that up as well, next. Cheers! Khamsin 01:09, 1 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

(Note: I read the earlier discussion on the example lists, and I've opted to remove extraneous text from the list; my feeling is that the article provides a way to evaluate how the cited example leader is charismatic, and if we have to spend so much time explaining why they're charismatic in the list, then something is wrong in the article itself.) Khamsin 01:13, 1 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think I'm pretty much done now; it's not perfect, but I think it's good enough. Cheers! Khamsin 05:48, 3 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Pythagoras and plato

Are pythagoras and plato really charismatic religious leaders? I have my doubts. Andries 18:46, 2 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category:charismatic religious leaders

I created a category category:charismatic religious leaders for two reasons. First there is no category religious founders because there is always controversy who created the religion: the messiah or one of his prominent followers, as the case of Jesus and Paul illustrates. For this reason the category religious founder had been deleted. The second reason was because the category:new religious movements was becoming too large and messy. Andries 18:46, 2 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That category , for obvious reasons is up for deletion. Vote here. ≈ jossi ≈ 16:11, 3 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Weber and new religions?

Weber died in 1920, how come the article reads as if speaks of "cults' and new religions? ≈ jossi ≈ 16:17, 3 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Max Weber is a founding father of sociology and introduced the concept that is now used by many others. He could never have spoke of cults because there is no equivalent of that word in German language. He spoke of Mormonism that was new at that time. Andries 17:19, 3 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I am then deleting the text on that section. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ 20:32, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I do not exactly what you want to delete, but as I said, keep in mind that the concept is not unique for Weber and is extensively used in the study of cults and new religious movements e.g. by Eileen Barker and this article should reflect that. Andries 20:44, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The text I have deleted makes an unwarranted statement aboyt cults in connection to Weber. That is not right. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ 20:49, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Also removed "charismatic religious leaders" section. The fact that one single person (Schnabel) makes that assessment (e.g. person X is a "charismatoc religious leader") is not a basis for inclusion. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ 20:39, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I do not agree with your removal of notable attributed sources (Schnabel's Phd dissertation about new religious movements). I will revert. Andries 20:44, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Jossi, you have the right to ask for references and remove contents if they can't be provided, but you have no right to remove contents that is referenced from notable, scholarly sources. It becomes a different matter, of course, when you find a scholar who contradicts Schnabel. Andries 20:52, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You and I know the reasons for you inclusion of Prem Rawat in this article. Let's leave it at that. Nevertheless, check the good work you are doing for Schnabel [1]. As for notability, Schabel was not notable, until you started prompting hs dissertation in WP that is. :) You can try the same search on Haan and van der Lans. ;-)≈ jossi fresco ≈ 21:05, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The reason why I included Rawat in this article was because I did not agree with your deletions of the whole list and these two (Rajneesh and Rawat) were the only ones for which I had good references so I could insert them, without having to fear that they would be deleted. I admit that I was angry about what I consider your excessive scepticism of other people's edits. Note that I had done the same for Hitler, providing references. And to say that Schnabel is not notable is simply untrue. He is one of the highest ranking civil servants who do social research in the Netherlands. Andries 21:18, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Being angry does not solve anything and is also bad for your health. Cheer up. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ 21:22, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Unreferenced material

There is a lot of material in this article that is unreferrenced. If it is from Weber's writings, it needs to be stated. If it is by someone else, it needs to be stated. I have added a cleanup tag. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ 21:21, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I do not oppose to this clean up tag, but this article is better referenced than most Wikipedia articles and clearly the clean up tag has everything to do with the fact that this subject is related to cults and new religious movements. Just an observation that I think is funny, without any sarcasm or implicit criticism. Andries 21:51, 15 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Can we now remove the clean up tag? This article is now very well referenced for Wikipedia's standards. Andries 19:48, 12 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

A quote to help the cleanup

Weber defined charisma as "an exceptional quality in an individual who, through appearing to possess supernatural, providential, or extraordinary powers succeeds in gathering disciples about him" Weber The sociology of religion Boston Beacon Press 1963, cited in Charisma: A psychoanalytic look at mass society Irvine Schiffer (New York Free Press 1973), 3 and in Madelein Landau Tobia and Janja Lalich Captive Hears captive minds:freedom and recovery from cults and abusive relationships. Publishers group West 1993 Andries 21:41, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed mergers

For discussion of the proposed merge with Max Weber, please see Talk:Max Weber#Mergers by User:Jossifresco.

Prem Rawat and Schabel

Please note that Schnabel was not making an assertion about Elan Vital or the current situation. He was only writing about Rawat's leadership of the DLM at that time. I had some e-mail correspondence with him about his dissertation and he emphasized that his dissertation should be seen in the context of 1982. Andries 10:15, 14 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Translation of Schnabel as per the new guidelines at Wikipedia:verifiability

Dutch original "De meest zuivere voorbeelden van charismatisch leiderschap zijn op dit moment wel Bhagwan en Maharaj Ji. Daaruit blijkt meteen al hoe persoonlijke kwaliteiten alleen onvoldoende zijn voor de erkenning van het charismatisch leiderschap. De intelligente, steeds wisselende en dagelijks optredende Bhagwan is niet meer een charismatisch leider dan de verwende materialistische en intellectueel weinig opmerkelijke Maharaj Ji. Als charismatisch leider hebben beiden overigens wel een eigen publiek en een eigen functie." page 101-102 "Tegelijkertijd betekent dit echter charismatisch leiderschap als zodanig tot op zekere hoogte ensceneerbaar is. Maharaj Ji is daar een voorbeeld van. In zekere zin gaat het hier om geroutinizeerd charisma (erfopvolging), maar voor de volgelingen in Amerika en Europa geldt dat toch nauwelijk: zij waren bereid juist in hem te geloven en er was rond Maharaj Ji een hele organisatie die dat geloof voedde en versterkte."

English translation by Babelfish and corrected by user:andries "The purest examples of charismatic leadership are at this moment, still, Bhagwan and Maharaj Ji. This shows directly that personal qualities alone are insufficient for the recognition of the charismatic leadership. The intelligent, ever-changing Bhagwan who gives daily performances is not more a charismatic leader than the spoiled materialistic and intellectually unremarkable Maharaj Ji. As charismatic leaders, they, by the way, both have their own public and their own function." page 101-102 "At the same time, this means however that charismatic leadership, as such, can be staged to a certain degree. Maharaj Ji is an example of this. From one perspective, it concerns here routinized charisma (succession), but to the followers in America and Europe this applies that nevertheless hardly: they were prepared to have faith exactly in him and around Maharaj Ji a complete organisation existed which fed and reinforced that faith."

Andries 21:27, 15 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Another quote to help the clean-up

Help with the translation of this German quote is appreciated

"Die charismatisch Autorität ruht auf den "Glauben" an den Propheten, der Anerkennung, die der charismatische ... Held ... persönlich, und fällt mit ihm dahin. Gleichwohl leitet sie ihre Autorität nicht etwa aus dieser Anerkennung durch die Beherrschten ab. Sondern umgekehrt: Glaube und Anerkennung gelten als Pflicht, deren Erfüllung der charismatisch Legitimierte für sich forder." (Weber 1973 (1922), 483) Die drei reine Typen der legitimen Herrschaft(Three pure types of legitimate rule) in: Gesammelte Aufsätze zur Wirtschaftslehre Andries 22:24, 15 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Sory, Andries but the grammar on this translation does not make sense: The purest examples of charismatic leadership are at this moment, still, Bhagwan and Maharaj Ji." page 101-102 "At the same time, this means however that charismatic leadership, as such, can be staged to a certain degree. Maharaj Ji is an example of this. From one perspective, it concerns here routinized charisma (succession), but to the followers in America and Europe this applies nevertheless hardly: they were prepared to have faith exactly in him and around Maharaj Ji a complete organisation existed which fed and reinforced that faith.. Can you please post the Dutch version and let someone translate properly? It does not make sense as is. Thanks. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 22:35, 15 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think one sentence may be incomprensible. (I find writing in English directly easier than translating)I did write the Dutch version here. Here is the improved sentence "From a certain point of view, Maharaj Ji's leadership can be seen as routinized charisma (succession), but to the followers in America and Europe this hardly applies: they were prepared to have faith exactly in him. A whole organisation existed that fed and reinforced that faith. " Better now? Andries

There is no need to have the text twice (one on the aticle and once on the ref). Just provide the reference. If you wish, you can add the original Dutch to the ref as per the verifiability guidelines. Thanks ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 02:44, 17 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Weber cite fm 1978?

Weber died in 1920. The cite added is labeled "Weber, 1978, p.241". If you use the notation (year) on the body of an article, you need to provide the date in which Weber first published that specific assertion. It would also be useful to have the name and published of the book you are citing from. Thank you. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 22:35, 24 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Citations from Weber are often from the date of English language translations. I have observed this often and I first wondered about this. Andries 22:37, 24 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No worries. I found the cite on the 1978 edition of Weber's "Economy and Society". Added ref. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 22:47, 24 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Steve Jobs

What about him and other CEO's who use charisma. Cite iCon and other books.

"People assiocated with religion"

"People associate with religion" is very vague and unnecessarily so. what dictionary says that figurehead is a pejorative word? Andries 20:18, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I consider the word figurehead important because there is no way of knowing whether a religious leader who is presented as a leader is the de facto leader. For example, the religious scholar Reender Kranenborg wrote that the mother of Prem Rawat was the real leader of the DLM before the family split. Another example, there are rumors that Sathya Sai Baba has lost all power to the Sathya Sai Central Trust. Another reason is, that I do not know a synonym for the word figurehead. Andries 14:35, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

people associated with religion and new religious movements is not vague
figurehead is a pejorative when you do not differentiate to whom you apply that charcterization

≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:12, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The word "associated" is as vague as can be. I am associated with religion and NRMs too. The word "linked" meaning the same as "associated" is evena word to avoid. 99% of the people is linked to NRMs and religion. Again, find a good synonym or find a dictionary that says that figurehead is pejorative. Andries 10:56, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is absolutely nothing problematic with the term "associated". But when you say "figureheads" as a generic attribution for a list of people which some are obviously not, you are bypassing WP:NPOV and WP:V. If some people in the list are figureheads as decribed by a reputable source, please add that to the list member and not to the heading for all list members. Otherwise, what you are really saying that Mohammad, Jesus, Buddha, etc. may have been figureheads. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:14, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is very much wrong with the word "associated" because it is very vague and in this encyclopedia we try to be as specific as possible. Please stop violating the Wikipedia style guideline Wikipedia:words to avoid that mentions the word "associated". I will try to avoid "figurehead". Andries 17:36, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Read the guideline. It is related to dubious application of the term: These words can imply a connection without stating the nature of the connection or discussing the evidence for and against it. This does not apply here as people in the list as well as the section title imply exactly that: people associated with religions or new religious movements. We could use "related", if you wish. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:08, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oakes

Why does Oakes book a reference to "phsychology of charismatic leaders". Oakes book Prophetic Charisma: The Psychology of Revolutionary Religious Personalities is abook in which he explores the psychology of charisma and proposes his own theory on the development ofeligious prophets: the messianic and charismatic. This selective citation is, IMO unsuitable and misleading. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:30, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I do not understand your objection. What is wrong with citing Oakes? I am aware that he proposes a contestable theory about the difference between messianic and charismatic prophets, but he writes about many, many things in that book, not just that contestable theory of his. Andries 00:32, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How can a citation from a book here be anything but selective? We cannot break copyrights and have limited space here. Andries 00:34, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oakes is not the only person who wrote that charismatic persons are narcistic. The psychiatry professor Anthony Storr wrote more or less the same in his book Feet of clay: a study of gurus. Andries 00:37, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You know exactly what I am talking about. Have you even read the book? Following your logic I can quote this from Oakes' book: charimsmatic leaders display an extraordinary amount of energy, accompanied by an inner clarity unhindered by the anxieties and guilt that afflict more ordinary people. But that is not the point I am making. You have placed that cite as a generic cite for "phsychology of charismatic leaders". ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:18, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You also refer to Heinz Kohut. Have you ever read him? I tried reading some of his articles and found them incomprehensible. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:41, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I have read Oakes' book. No, I have not read Kohut and Oakes called Kohut's work breathtakingly difficult to read. Andries 10:52, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I will make a note in the article about Kohut because I do not want other peole to waste their time reading incomprehensible literature. Andries 11:12, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]