Template talk:Sovereign states of Europe

Republic of Macedonia

As »pesky Slovene« (this goes to Shallot :--) (see MediaWiki_talk:SFRY)) I would like to change current designation of Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia in this footer to (at least) Republic of Macedonia - since the article itself has such a name and it is also shorter. Any objections? --XJamRastafire 11:04, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Geographic definition and stuff

If we include Turkey and Georgia because of those bits of their territory that's in Europe, should we also include Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan? All these corner cases are a bit unwieldy... --Shallot 20:25, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'd say we should follow the country list at Europe, so yes to Turkey, no to Georgia etc. Matthewmayer 00:13, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Europe mentions three additional countries after the main list, so we might as well add them here. -- User:Docu

User:Wik has been removing the following countries from the list: Azerbaijan, Georgia and Kazakhstan. Portions of these countries lie in Europe, in the same way that a portion of Turkey lies in Europe, but Wik is not removing Turkey, so his removal of these other countries is not consequential to his own criteria. Perhaps he should explain his reverts in the summary, instead of using the vacuous 'rv' or the childish 'rv moron'. --Cantus 00:35, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Kazakhstan, at least, is pretty ridiculous. The part of Kazakhstan that is in Europe is only in Europe in an utterly marginal way. I'm pretty dubious about Azerbaijan, too. Not sure about Georgia. How about Cyprus, which joins the EU on Saturday? john 01:23, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I don't think that Georgia and Kazakhstan should be put in this MediaWiki. WhisperToMe 05:07, 3 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

CIA - The World Factbook lists as partially located in Europe: Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Russia, and Turkey, but not Cyprus nor Georgia. List all four or none? Pædia | talk 16:02, 2004 May 3 (UTC)

Russia clearly should be listed as part of Europe. Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan should not. So far as I can tell, only insignificant corners of them can be considered to be in Europe. Georgia probably should not, either. Turkey has a small but significant part that is clearly in Europe (unlike Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan, which have parts in Europe based around vaguely defined borders in the east), and likes to consider itself a European country. Cyprus is clearly not geographically in Europe, but it is a member of the EU. john 17:18, 3 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Columbia Encyclopedia states of Europe 'By convention, it is separated from Asia by the Urals and the Ural River in the east; by the Caspian Sea and the Caucasus in the southeast; and by the Black Sea, the Bosporus, the Sea of Marmara, and the Dardanelles in the south.' The majorities of Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Russia, and Turkey are in Asia. What makes parts of one more significant than others? In Azerbaijan the 'insignificant corner...considered to be in Europe' contains the capital Baku. Why 'Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan should not', but 'Georgia probably should not'? Georgia is south of the Caucasus, hence the highest point in Europe (Gora El'brus, 5633 m) is located in Russia. Pædia | talk 20:02, 2004 May 3 (UTC)

Georgia is fine to not be. On the other hand, Europe is frequently considered a cultural entity. As largely Christian countries, Georgia and Armenia (and Cyprus) would probably be considered to be more European than Azerbaijan or Kazakhstan, even though they're geographically in Asia. At any rate, The border of Europe at the Dardanelles was the original defining feature of Europe. There's water, it's easy to determine. The borders of Europe along the Caucasus and the Urals are rather more difficult to figure out. The eastern Caucasus kind of peter out, and it's pretty arguable that Baku is on the southern side. And saying that part of Kazakhstan is in Europe is completely arbitrary - the Ural mountains peter out north of the Kazakh border. On the other hand, Istanbul is a European city by any definition, and Russia has been a major European power since the 18th century. john 00:28, 5 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Flag?

Why does this article include the European Union flag? --Gutza 13:55, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

It's the European flag, not exclusively the European Union flag. -- User:Docu

See Logo & Flag page of the Council of Europe (not an EU body) here –Hajor

See earlier discussion at Talk:Europe. After EU taking over the flag, it is a POV that it stil is a European flag, but certainly not a NPOV. Therefore it should not be reinserted. --Arnejohs 10:15, 1 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

*sighs*

Look, it is the flag of the Council of Europe, and hence of Europe the continent - this is a statement of fact, not a POV. Whether or not it is the flag of the EU as well is irrelevent to whether or not this is a fact.

Similarly, we have the flag of Chad on the pages about Romania (or vice versa) - just because two entities use the same flag, doesn't mean that we have to chose which one we prefer to claim has proper ownership (which really is a POV).

You yourself said that we, as an encyclopædia, should attempt to be correct in all things, not just the ones that are so in the popular consiousness. This is one of those points.

I suppose we could have a footnote pointing out that the flag is also used by the EU, but that they are wholly distinct entities and uses...

James F. (talk) 10:42, 1 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

The EU flag (even the image file is named Eunion.png) was removed from the Europe article April 3. No one has argued that it should be inserted. I take that as an agreement.
A flag is a symbol and in the MediaWiki it is used as such. That is: It should give the wanted associations. This is not the case here since it is being used in different contexts causing confusion.
As long as this is causing a discussion it is a POV to include the flag. Not including the flag is not an action; it is simply avoiding an action that is causing discussion. Not to include the EU flag in the European context certainly is consistent with the NPOV policy of Wikipedia.
Even though the European Council proposed the flag used for all the European countries, they use a different logo today (with an e in the middle of the stars) in order to avoid confusion with the EU flag.
I do not believe Albania, Andorra, Belarus, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia , Iceland, Liechtenstein, Macedonia, Moldova, Monaco, Norway, Romania, Russia, San Marino, Serbia and Montenegro, Switzerland, Turkey, Ukraine and Vatican City find it naturally being labelled in an serious encyclopædia by the most pronounced symbol of the European Union, their flag. Do you?

Arnejohs 11:16, 1 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, never mind. I can see that we're not going to agree (though I would disagree about the removal of something not being an action). I give up (but not in).

I suppose there's a first time for everything. ;-)

James F. (talk) 19:32, 2 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Jdforrester, I hate being the stubborn one, but I think you have a nice way of stating the disagreement in a way by which we both can be open to reconsider the case in the future. Certainly there is a time for everything, may be even a time of giving a flag to a continent. Because in this context Europe is not EU and not even the European Council, but simply the continent Europe (which (by the way) is hard enough to define...). Have a nice day. ---Arnejohs 20:46, 2 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Dependencies

Comparing the List of dependent territories one might wonder which principle guides if a territory is listed as a dependency or not.

/Tuomas 01:12, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I add Åland – tentatively. /Tuomas 16:53, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

CIA - The World Factbook lists Jan Mayen and Svalbard as equivalents to Gibraltar. Pædia | talk 16:02, 2004 May 3 (UTC)

Paedia: I have also been wondering if not Jan Mayen and Svalbard should be included. I guess the Factbook is right in this case. --Arnejohs 16:14, 3 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Jan Mayen and Svalbard are integral parts of Norway, just like Åland is an integral part of Finland. --Wik 18:41, May 4, 2004 (UTC)

Jan Mayen may be considered an integral part of Norway, but not Svalbard, which has a special arrangement through the Svalbard Treaty. --Arnejohs 18:46, 4 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

By the treaty it became an integral part of Norway; the other provisions of the treaty don't detract from that. --Wik 19:00, May 4, 2004 (UTC)

The key phrase (the opening decission, actually) of the LoN's arbitration on Åland actually is

"The sovereignty of the Åland Islands is recognised to belong to Finland

...which is not the same as "The Åland Islands are recognised to belong to Finland". The islands's autonomy is guaranteed by international treaties, which Finland has followed rather minutiously, like their de-militarized status, which has not been exactly as minutiously respected. Which is the criterion used for inclusion/exclusion? By the way; Nice to see you've found the talk page, Wik! /Tuomas 13:54, 5 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Åland is one of six provinces (laanit, singular - laani)—Aland, Etela-Suomen Laani, Ita-Suomen Laani, Lansi-Suomen Laani, Lappi, Oulun Laani—and therefore currently not a territory.

CIA - The World Factbook -- Field Listing - Dependent areas lists Bouvet Island, Gibraltar, Jan Mayen, and Svalbard as territories of their respective sovereign nations. Stating that they are 'integral parts of Norway' would be like Navassa Island, Puerto Rico, U.S. Virgin Islands, and a few Pacific Islands as 'integral parts of' the US. Pædia | talk 17:30, 2004 May 5 (UTC)

I guess that means that Wikipedia's "litmus test" is the listing in the CIA World Factbook. ...well, as a Finn I'm of course pleased, but I'm not quite sure if Ålanders are. ;-) /Tuomas 18:34, 5 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

I would not call it the only 'litmus test', but at least as recognised by the US government. Åland Islands on Encyclopedia.com states 'Under pressure from the Soviet Union, Finland's parliament renounced the League guarantee of autonomy in 1951 but at the same time accorded the islanders additional rights of self-government.' Is this similar to the UK allowing Scotland certain self-governing? Pædia | talk 19:02, 2004 May 5 (UTC)

There you have one of the controversies. /Tuomas 19:44, 5 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Svalbard

I have added Svalbard again. There seems to be consensus it should be included. Its article states that it is a dependency, and that it lies "north of mainland Europe". By convention, it is included as part of Europe. If there are any objections, please put them here. Warofdreams 15:17, 5 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Cantus

Why is Cantus constantly reverting all these pages, without making a single comment here? Even Wik has participated in the talk page discussions. john 19:47, 5 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

You need to take a better look at this page, because I have made comments. -Cantus 19:51, 5 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]