Talk:Ramapough Mountain Indians
I thought this was a Wikipedianism for the locally familiar Ramapo Mountain. See Talk:Ephrem the Syrian. --Wetman 14:06, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This artcile is an exact copy of [1]. Copyright violation?? 6 Mar 2005
Document was rewritten...
ramapough mountain indians
document rewritten on temp page. pls update. this is from home page and permission was granted. The info posted previously was from state site and here is their copyright policy.
"The State of New Jersey has made the content of these pages available to the public and anyone may view, copy or distribute State information found here without obligation to the State, unless otherwise state on particular material or information to which a restriction on free use may apply."
no copyright laws were broken.
Copyvio result
The article has been returned to its pre-copyvio state. The discussion from Wikipedia:Copyright problems was:
- copyright statement-- The State of New Jersey has made the content of these pages available to the public and anyone may view, copy or distribute State information found here without obligation to the State, unless otherwise state on particular material or information to which a restriction on free use may apply. However, the State makes no warranty that materials contained herein are free of Copyright or Trademark claims or other restrictions or limitations on free use or display. Making a copy of such material may be subject to the copyright of trademark laws.
- Also, an earlier version of the article existed that was deleted to make way for the copy/paste.--Duk 16:53, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Information from the New Jersey Web site can be incorporated into the article, but should avoid plagiarism. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:37, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
Information from the Ramapough Lenape Nation
Steve posted this on my talk page;
The info posted to the temp page is from my website. I am the web admin for the tribal website. If possible, I would like to explain why the info posted is offensive. the info listed is wrong. We do not, nor have we ever spoke Jersey Dutch. Our ancestors spoke Munsee and i'm sure they had to learn English and Dutch to communicate with the European invaders. The part that is really upsetting is many site derive their info from yours and it spreads the lies. In the temp folder is the correct info which is on our website written by our chief. Please, either post the correct info or delete us out of your site altogether. Thank you. Steven (User:Ramapoughnative1)
Steve has put some material at Ramapough Mountain Indians/Temp which appears to be from ramapoughlenapenation.org --Duk 16:00, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
- I've just added my endorsement of your comments on his Web page. I must admit that I don't like the reference to "lies", or the claim that errors are offensive (if I took offense at all the mistakes that, for example, many Americans make about the U.K, I'd be in a permanent state of fury...). Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:20, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Removed comments..
I won't complain about the removal of those previous comments, they were racist and pejorative. However, the poster did indicate some things that should be discussed, if this article refers to the same people (which it appears to). A mention of the common (considered pejorative?) term "Jackson Whites" and its relation here should be discussed in a NPOV way. I had heard of people referred to by that term, but I did not realize that this article was talking about the same group of people until reading those recent comments. The article at [3] gives a reasonable background and commentary, and many references to other publications. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 06:32, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I agree. This article has a sad history of racist vandalism, sometimes thinly veiled with a few valid facts. Some of the reverts removed information that would be acceptable if presented in a balanced way. --Duk 19:56, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think there is a great difference between something being said about a nation as a whole and something said about your family. The information posted saying we were descendents of runaway Hessian soldiers, prostitutes, etc is just wrong. Period. There is no documentation to support this but it gets printed as truth because that's how people want to think of us. Even as hard as Cohen tried to prove the mixed blood thing, he couldn't but I still see it posted on websites. Some sites having nothing to do with Native Americans or geneology have it listed there. Why? It's all politically motivated propaganda to make us look like we're less than human and it had to be corrected.
I do appreciate all of the webmasters who have corrected or removed the misinformation.
steven
- After reading the comments by ChrisRuvolo, I added some information about the Jackson White name trying to be as careful as possible to be respectful of the opinion of the tribe regarding the name. I've lived in Suffern, NY and have hiked in the Ramapo mountains, and the name and the legends around it are an important part of the region's history. I hope this helps, if not, feel free to rv. Sysin
Sysin I don't mind the additions so much but can we kill the Cohen part? His book is neither supported nor appreciated by the tribe. If you must mention something with authority, how about the book "Indians in the Ramapos" by Edward J. Lenik? He is a well known anthropologist and has done unbiased research to find the truth. Please understand, just because we're introverted doesn't mean we're ignorant. It's really nobody's business what or who our descendents were. How would you feel to have your history and lineage under a microscope? I understand you have lived in Suffern (The town was founded by my gr gr gr gr grandfather) but are you a Ramapough? Don't we have a say in what's told about us? I guess nothing has changed in the past 250 years. Do you realize the impact your website has? The misinformation posted here before had proliferated to hundreds of sites around the world, and it's still listed on some sites. The Jackson White theory needs to die already.. Let it go... Before 1940's.. African Americans were called the 'N' word by most of society. No one prints that now because that would be ignorant and pejorative. I feel just as strongly about the name "Jackson White". It's not true so why print it?
Steven
- I'm not familiar with Cohen, but his opinion (if based on scientific research) should not be deleted just because some disagree with it. The proper procedure is to add a paragraph stating that "In his book Indians in the Ramapos, Edward J. Lenik states that ...". This covers both opinions, and provides the reader with a clearer picture of the issue than simply deleting the 'offending theory'. In fact, if you want the "Jackson White" myths to die, the best approach is to state them and rebut them, not to pretend they don't exist. As for the comparison to the N word, in fact wikipedia has a long and informative article on it as well...Sysin
I'm not pretending it doesn't exist. The point is it's a myth made up by some racist many years ago and because no one stepped up to the plate and said he was wrong, it's stuck for all these years. Cohen couldn't prove it, Lenik showed otherwise. (and yes it has be rebutted.) So what do we do? Rebut it on every website that prints it, (I don't have the time nor resources for it) or just ask not to have it printed? All I can say is I hope no one else ever has to go thru this for their family. I'm done. You have already decided what you're going to print whether it's true or false.
- To answer your question what should we do. You need to rebutt the Cohen reference with Lenik's information. You can also add details about the NY and NJ officially recognizing the Ramapough Lenape Nation. Also, you can add cultural, historical and current information on the tribe. You might be one of the few persons in a position to do this. I've become interested in this topic, and have reverted obvious vandalism in the past. But am otherwise ignorant on the topic, and my library doesn't have a copy of INDIANS IN THE RAMAPOS: SURVIVAL, PERSISTENCE AND PRESENCE, by Edward J. Lenik, North Jersey Highlands Historical Sociey, 1999. I'll see if I can get it on intra-library loan. --Duk 01:25, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
- All of that info is already posted on the tribal website. I will work on the Cohen/Lenik part though. thanks!
Ramapough Mountain People
Once again I come back to find more derogitory info on us. Why do you keep adding more negative info? Do you have something AGAINST us? I have updated your page to include the information from Ed Lenik from the N.J. Highlands Historical Society. Last point i'd like to make is Cohen did not work or even consult with the tribe to write his books. Ed Lenik did. Therefore, Cohens only reference was the one sided stories and myths written about us from the people who wanted nothing more than to steal our land. Their writings of us were less than perfect because they didn't care. ( think of Abramhoff who was hired to lobby FOR the tribes but did the opposite and called them names behind their backs) At this time, it is documented that the white colonials beat, raped, and stole from the indians. When the indians tried to get justice, there was none. This is why the tribes sold their land and moved north and west. They were invited by other tribes to live with them and they feared for their existence if they stayed here.
pokey5945: Thanks for editing the input. I want to bring to your attention that the BIA hasn't recognized any of the 3 state recognized tribe here in New Jersey. As a matter of fact, they have removed a few who were. The BIA is loaded with flaws and will add or remove a tribe based on who's paying. PERIOD. We never wanted recognition for a casino and filed our petition in 1978, years before the casino law was inacted but a powerful person here who owns the casino business assumed we wanted to get in on his business and guess what? He petitioned against us and we didn't get recognized. What ever happened to examining the facts? This event is well documented can be found on the web. We don't need anyone to decide if we are or are not Indian. We know who we are and don't care what anyone else thinks. You adding the part about the BIA decision, a branch of the federal government (who has done nothing to preserve or keep it's treaties with any tribe), doesn't recognize us as Native American adds no merit to the facts. This is the same branch that has members who have been caught lying, stealing tribal funds, and conspiring against all Native Americans. I thought this was suppose to be a factual site. Seems you want to push propaganda. Do you work for the government too?
Steven
- The federal government's relationship to the group is relevant to this article, regardless of whether one agrees with the govts' decisions or not. If you can document some corruption in the BIA acknowledgment process, that would relevant too, but it would need to be verifiable.Pokey5945 06:47, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
The proof will be when the Shinnecocks claim about Blumenthau contacting the BIA and tampering with the decision making comes to light. Why is it that legend about the Ramapoughs being descendent of deserter soldiers and slave women (which has NO proof even existed and is considered slander) has to be mentioned here but the fact that there are hundreds of documents and some noted anthropologist such as Roger Josilyn saying we are whom we say but that's not good enough? We didn't get recognition because it wasn't in the governments best interest. If you read the document by the BIA, we failed because we weren't documented before 1870 or after 1950. How does a whole village of people appear out of nowhere overnight? Since I was born in 1958, Why doesn't birth and death records suffice to the existence of the same tribe? Doesn't geneology records have any part in the decision? It's all B.S.
The Assistant Secretary found that Petitioner satisfied the criteria in § 83.7(b) and (c) for the period 1870-c.1950. However, she stated: "Meeting a criterion for a limited period is not sufficient to meet the criterion overall because of the requirement of continuous existence. No adequate evidence has been submitted to show the continuous existence of a community from first sustained contact with non-Indians until 1870, or from 1950 to the present.
http://www.ibiadecisions.com/Ibiadecisions/31ibia/31ibia061.PDF(31 IBIA 67)
POKEY5945: The part you added about COHEN "who conducted extensive genealogical research among the group." is removed because it is a lie. He never did any geological research. His information is based on documents written by John C. Storms in 1936. Roger Josyln who IS a geneologist disputes Cohen and had stated otherwise. Here is Joslyn's credentials.
Roger D. Joslyn, CG, FASG, is a Fellow of the American Society of Genealogists (and its immediate past president), The New York Genealogical and Biographical Society, and the Utah Genealogical Association.A full-time genealogist since 1978, he became a Certified Genealogist in 1981. He is a former trustee of the Board for Certification of Genealogists, a founding member and past vice president of the Genealogical Speakers Guild, and a member of the New York Archival Services Advisory Committee (State Archives). Roger is a past president, former trustee, and former Editorial Advisory Board member of the Association of Professional Genealogists, and in 1994 he received that organization’s Grahame Thomas Smallwood, Jr. Award of Merit. He is a frequent speaker and has had many articles published in leading genealogical journals. He was the editor/compiler of the two-volume Vital Records of Charlestown, Massachusetts, and is the author of the Mid-Atlantic state chapters in Ancestry's Red Book.
We are not going to publish our geneology on your website to prove it. I also want to bring to your attention in Cohens book "The Ramapough Mountain People", page 7. He himself states "there is no evidence that this information is related to the origin of the Ramapo mountain People." So he himself disputes the Jackson White theory. So please stop printing misinformation.
P.S. Cohen is a historian NOT an archeologist. They are not the same. David Steven Cohen holds a B.A. in History from Rutgers University, an M.A. in American History from Claremont Graduate School, and an M.A. and Ph.D. in American Civilization from the University of Pennsylvania. He taught History and American Studies at Rutgers University in Newark for nine years, prior to coming to the New Jersey Historical Commission, where he is a Senior Research Associate and Director of the Ethnic History Program.
Steven
This is my email address. Ramapoughnative1@hotmail.com