Talk:Bushido

I corrected the characters for "loyalty", they clearly must be "忠義" and not "尽忠", which cannot be pronounced as "chugi".

Thanks, bye''

Factual accuracy

Why the heck would you quote "serious historians" like Karl Friday? I'd rather hear from someone who actually lived there and translated the books themselves, seeking the advice of experts. Karl Friday didn't even bother to crack open a Japanese dictionary which would have explained to him that it is very old. He is obviously just another westerner trying to rewrite history.

This does Dr.Karl Friday a major diservice. He most certainly did live in Japan, is a trained historian, and much more besides. I expand on this below. His contrary (to the article) arguments are not unique to him or Western historians. I wont add the link to one of his articles just to keep the peace but dissing people who don't particularily agree with you is bad form.Peter Rehse 12:15, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

proof that Bushido is very old:

IDEALS OF THE SAMURAI, WRITINGS OF JAPANESE WARRIORS BY WILLIAM SCOTT WILSON	 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0897500814/002-6529010-3956843?v=glance (EXCERPT) Having been born into the house of a warrior, one's intentions should be to grasp the long and the short swords and to die.

If a man does not investigate into the matter of Bushido daily, it will be difficult for him to die a brave and manly death. Thus it is essential to engrave This business of the warrior into one's mind well. -KATO KIYOMASA

read it and weep, folks: JAPANESE DICTIONARY DEFINITION OF BUSHIDO - - According to the Shogakkan kokugo daijiten: - Bushido is defined as a unique philosophy (ronri) that spread through the warrior class from the Muromachi (chusei) period.

A Japanese dictionary definition proves nothing. Dictionaries can be wrong.

Bathrobe 07:32, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

An Expert Speaks http://www.kodansha-intl.com/books/html/en/477002942X.html AN INTERVIEW WITH WILLIAM SCOTT WILSON ABOUT BUSHIDO

Q.: What is Bushido?

A.: Bushido might be explained in part by the etymology of the Chinese characters used for the word. Bu comes from two radicals meanings "stop" and "spear." So even though the word now means "martial" or "military affair," it has the sense of stopping aggression. Shi can mean "samurai," but also means "gentleman" or "scholar." Looking at the character, you can see a man with broad shoulders but with his feet squarely on the ground. Do, with the radicals of head and motion, originally depicted a thoughtful way of action. It now means a path, street or way. With this in mind, we can understand Bushido as a Way of life, both ethical and martial, with self-discipline as a fundamental tenet. Self-discipline requires the warrior at once to consider his place in society and the ethics involved, and to forge himself in the martial arts. Both should eventually lead him to understand that his fundamental opponents are his own ignorance and passions.

Q.: How did the code develop and how did it influence Japanese society?

A.: The warrior class began to develop as a recognizable entity around the 11th and 12th centuries. The leaders of this class were often descended from the nobility, and so were men of education and breeding. I would say that the code developed when the leaders of the warrior class began to reflect on their position in society and what it meant to be a warrior. They first began to write these thoughts down as yuigon, last words to their descendents, or as kabegaki, literally "wall writings," maxims posted to all their samurai. Samurai itself is an interesting word, coming from the classical saburau, "to serve." So when we understand that a samurai is "one who serves," we see that the implications go much farther than simply being a soldier or fighter.

Also, it is important to understand that Confucian scholars had always reflected on what it meant to be true gentleman, and they concluded that such a man would be capable of both the martial and literary. The Japanese inherited this system of thought early on, so certain ideals were already implicitly accepted.

The warrior class ruled the country for about 650 years, and their influence–political, philosophical and even artistic–had a long time to percolate throughout Japanese society.

Q.: The Samurai were very much renaissance men – they were interested in the arts, tea ceremony, religion, as well as the martial arts. What role did these interests play in the development of Bushido? How did the martial arts fit in?

A.: This question goes back to the Confucian ideal of balance that Japanese inherited, probably from the 7th century or so. The word used by both to express this concept, for the "gentleman" by the Chinese and the warrior by Japanese, is (hin), pronounced uruwashii in Japanese, meaning both "balanced" and "beautiful." The character itself is a combination of "literature" (bun) and "martial" (bu). The study of arts like Tea ceremony, calligraphy, the study of poetry or literature, and of course the martial arts of swordsmanship or archery, broadened a man's perspective and understanding of the world and, as mentioned above, provided him with a vehicle for self-discipline. The martial arts naturally were included in the duties of a samurai, but this did not make them any less instructive in becoming a full human being.

Q.: What was sword fighting like? Was the swordplay different for different samurai?

A.: There were literally hundreds of schools of samurai swordsmanship by the 1800's and, as previously mentioned, each school emphasized differing styles and approaches. Some would have the student to jump and leap, others to keep his feel solidly on the ground; some would emphasize different ways of holding the sword, others one method only. One school stated that technical swordsmanship took second place to sitting meditation. Historically speaking, there were periods when much of the swordfighting was done on horseback, and others when it was done mostly on foot. Also, as the shape and length of the sword varied through different epochs, so did styles of fighting. Then I suppose that a fight between men who were resolved to die would be quite different from a fight between men who were not interested in getting hurt.

Q.: How is the code reflected in Japanese society today?

A.: When I first came to live in Japan in the 60's, I was impressed how totally dedicated and loyal people were to the companies where they were employed. When I eventually understood the words samurai and saburau, it started to make sense. While these men (women would usually not stay long with a company, giving up work for marriage) did not carry swords of course, they seemed to embody that old samurai sense of service, duty, loyalty and even pride. This may sound strange in our own "me first" culture, but it impressed me that the company had sort of taken the place of a feudal lord, and that the stipend of the samurai had become the salary of the white-collar worker.M

That is on the societal level. On an individual level, I have often felt that Japanese have a strong resolution, perhaps from this cultural background of Bushido, to go through problems rather than around them. Persistence and patience developed from self-discipline?

I don't know who WILLIAM SCOTT WILSON is, but there are problems with the quote:

"Bushido might be explained in part by the etymology of the Chinese characters used for the word. Bu comes from two radicals meanings "stop" and "spear." So even though the word now means "martial" or "military affair," it has the sense of stopping aggression."

• The etymology of the character has nothing to do with the meaning of the word. Using character etymologies is a common fallacy.

"Shi can mean "samurai," but also means "gentleman" or "scholar." Looking at the character, you can see a man with broad shoulders but with his feet squarely on the ground."

• The same fallacy.

"How is the code reflected in Japanese society today?" Answer: "When I first came to live in Japan in the 60's, I was impressed how totally dedicated and loyal people were to the companies where they were employed. When I eventually understood the words samurai and saburau, it started to make sense."

• This is purely a personal feeling on the part of the speaker. Filling in the gaps between ancient codes developed in relation to the samurai class and modern-day Japanese values is a detailed job for the historian. An impressionistic statement, no matter how expert the man may be, is not enough.

Bathrobe 07:29, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

It looks like some people have different beliefs regarding the bushido, and this is reflecting on the previous edits of this article. Something must be done about this, and until that happens, the {{disputed}} tag should remain there. Me, I don't know enough about the subject, so I can't really stick my finger on this. I hoped I could find something more reliable here. As for my opinion, I've always thought their code of honor was indeed real in that past. Something that was common sense, followed by a large part of the samurai. Now I don't know anymore, though.

The discussion pertaining this can be carried here.--Kaonashi 04:26, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Recent edits by anon user 203.62.217.146 sound dismissive and POV: "Bushido was the supposed warrior code of the samurai." "In reality, however, bushido was an invention of frustrated samurai", "Today it is dismissed by serious historians" "Bushido re-emerged during World War 2 as Japanese propaganda" etc... Maybe a line could be written on such alternative views (with "serious historian"'s reference please), but isn't organizing the whole article around this theme quite excessive? PHG 10:33, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I agree this page needs to stay disputed for awhile, and that anon should have worded their entry a little more elegantly, though the actual content of the entry is essentially correct. The mistake people make with the whole samurai/bushido thing is that they are mixing up the eras, and reading the wrong books. The Sengoku Jidai period samurai is the samurai that most people are familiar with. Most of the Akira Kurosawa samurai films are taken from this period (mid 15th century up until the beginning of the 17th century), and this is where the image of the warrior samurai that everyone is familiar with comes from. These samurai were as unloyal as you could imagine, retainers often changed masters, and daimyo were continuingly forming and breaking alliances as soon as an advantage was to be had. Then Tokugawa Ieyasu won the battle of Sekigahara and established the Tokugawa Bakufu, ushering in the "Edo period", and with it several centuries of peace. In this period the samurai quite rapidly became aristocrats. They still wore their swords and some of them even practiced the martial arts, but there were no battles to fight and most samurai spent their lives on guard duty, collecting taxes or enjoying poetry and theatre (along with booze and the odd trip to the brothel!). This is where the image of the elegant & learned samurai comes from, though even that has been exaggerated somewhat over the years. Now, the topic of bushido. I was going to write up my opinions on the matter, but the article listed on the current Bushido page, http://www.koryubooks.com/library/kfriday2.html, does a pretty good job of it (and it's written by historian Karl Friday, to boot). A quick summary would be - during the Edo period, the period of peace, the Tokugawa Bakufu had to find a way to satisfy and reward their samurai, who no longer had much of a chance of moving through the ranks without the opportunity of proving himself in battle, which had been the main cause of promotion in the Sengoku Jidai period. To do this the Bakufu tried to change the concept of "honour" from a personal one to that of the clan and your master. The intent of this was that even if you were likely stuck at your social level for your whole life, you should still work hard to make your clan and your daimyo look better, which in turn will make you look better. To anyone who has read "Hagakure" this should sound familiar, giving and not getting anything back but the knowledge that you've improved your clan's status. As you may imagine, this didn't quite work in practice as samurai are, after all, human beings, and are just as ambitious as everyone else. It also led to some problems, like with Lord Asano and the 47 ronin, who revenged their lord as any good samurai was supposed to, yet were still condemned to death because they acted contrary to the Bakufu's ruling on the matter. But the actions of these 47 men were pretty unique, and could not be considered the standard. The real problem is that during the Edo period there was a certain consensus of what defines a samurai, however it differed from clan to clan and was not a written code in any sense of the word, nor was it followed by each and every man who wore the two swords. It's also important not to think of this as "bushido", as this term was simply not used back in those times. I think a great book that should help disillusion people about samurai of this period is the dairy of Katsu Kokichi, titled "Musui's Story: The Autobiography of a Tokugawa Samurai". This is a great example of exactly what a good percentage of the samurai had become during the period of peace following Sekigahara. "The Taming of the Samurai" by Eiko Ikegami is also a great look at the changing role of samurai during the Edo Period, from a sociological perspective. It touches on the Hagakure as well. Personally, I think the Bushido article hosted here needs a couple of things to be complete - a quick description of the transition of the samurai from warriors to administrators, a description on what it meant to be a samurai in the Edo period, the appearance of Bushido as Japanese propaganda after the Meiji restoration and a final blurb about the modern view of the bushido code, comparing the fiction to fact.--AngusH 04:25, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

What I find wrong here is the way the anon user filled the article with his "the bushido was nothing but a farse" pseudo-arguments. Things were not so simple. There was a strong feeling of keeping an honorable status among the samurai of certain eras in the feudal Japan. What you say about the samurai changing their concepts through the ages, Angus, sounds more than plausible, but still, there was no farse. Sure, our minds are filled with fantasy nowadays, and that surely clouds our judgement regarding certain things (specially things like this), but I still think this article is filled with endless bias. I will give an example that might sound good for some, and might sound like BS to others, but there it goes anyway.

I think one of the biggest demonstrations of honor to one's owns beliefs, at that time, was the seppuku. The reasons varied greatly. Tainted reputation, overwhelming disappointment, protest, etc. Cases of seppuku, however, weren't isolated among the samurai community. They were very common. It was part of their culture, and still is, in certain ways. It comes from the concept that it's better to have an honorable death than live a life in shame. It was a fast way of getting rid of every single dishonor on their lives. It was an act considered to be so full of honor, that after it's done, the person would be forgiven of everything. A decent ending. Now, anyone paid attention to the recent cases of mass suicides in Japan, set up via the Internet? Young people commiting suicide together inside cars? Would that be just a coincidence? I wouldn't say so. There's more there than meets the eye.

I'm not just pulling that off my head, though. I've read a lot about it, so nah, I'm not wrong. You might think this is completely unrelated, but to everybody that read a thing or two about suicide in Japan, you know that these aren't the only cases. Why do certain subway stations in Japan have acrylic barriers in the platforms to prevent people from jumping down the rails? Keep thinking.

Alright, this is just an example. Now, to my point. Would a culture that preserved such traditions based purely on honor (which "evolved" through the ages, certainly), so strongly, have nothing to do with that same honor? It's true I'm talking about something more complex than bushido right now, but see if you can trace the connections. As it's said in the seppuku article, "Seppuku was a key part of bushido". I'm still talking about the same thing, besides the appearances. "Invention of frustrated samurai"? I wouldn't say so. --Kaonashi 01:07, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I agree with AngusH. But this article is titled Bushido which is a term that did not even exist before the late Edo period and in fact probably the Meiji era (mid 1800s). Niitobe's book Bushido, written in English, is the most widely read text on this topic and it is largely fictious, although Japanese themselves have adopted much of it. Niitobe turned his back on Japan. The book Shogun is another bad influence.

Just as well I didn't write this article, it would have been far more pointed. Maybe I can re-write it.

As for Seppuku, it was far more rare than reported. Mostly it was a forced suicide. Originally the individual stabbed himself and the assitant decapitated him after sufficient agony had been endured. By the Edo period people were commiting seppuku with (folded) fans, they reached for the fan as a purely symbolic act and were decapitated by the "assistant".

Kaonashi, there are no subway stations in Tokyo with acrylic barriers to prevent suicides.

Yes, there are. It's glass by the way, if that makes any difference. This time I'll even show you exactly where I read about it. That's a famous Brazilian magazine that talks exclusively about the Japanese culture. What you're referring to is right at the editorial. Too bad you won't be able to see it. And yes, you guessed it. It's Tokyo. Congrats.

As for seppuku, I'm afraid you don't completely understand it. The "assistant" you talk about was usually a close friend of the person in question. He was there to finish his pain as soon as possible, by yes, chopping the head. They had no reasons to make the seppuku committer endure more pain than necessary. Now, about the "forced seppukus" you also referred to, that's not that different either. When captured prisoners were sometimes given the choice of commiting seppuku or by dying by the sword of someone there. To be given such a choice was a great regally. It was better to commit seppuku and die a honorable death than dying by the hands of the enemy, once again. In that case, the "assistant" would be there to end the person's pain just as fast. No changes on that. Otherwise, why would the enemy suggest the seppuku anyway? It's a chance of being "forgiven" by many. Not a chance of getting through even more pain.--Kaonashi 15:43, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• Factual accuracy: sliding walls in the recently built subways throughout Japan are not designed specifically to avoid suicides, but more generally as a security feature against people falling on the tracks. It's been especially implemented when there the trains are fully automated and don't have drivers (such as the Yurikamome line going to Odaiba), but not exclusively. It is also a usefull security feature when you have a Shinkansen rushing through a station without stopping (in that case these are not "walls", but sliding barriers about 1 meter high, which cannot prevent someone jumping over anyway). By the way, the latest line in the Paris Subway also has sliding transparent wall: Paris Metro Line 14, which is also fully automomated. Of course, there are also some suicides in France too...PHG 21:59, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Kaonashi (literally) Mr No Face, I have lived in Japan for 8 years, Tokyo for 3. I catch the subway daily and have never seen a barrier of any type. Perhaps you could tell me the name of the line and station that have these barriers. As PHG mentioned the Yurikamome does, but if I remember correctly that is a monorail (certainly not a subway) and of course the Shinkansen (bullet train) has them at some stations.

Yes I do understand Seppuku; problem is there was no enemy after Tokugawa united Japan. I used quotes on the term assistant as during this era seppuku was used as a form of execution and the assitant was most usually not a close associate and the subject did not stab himself.

The biggest problem with Japan's history is that most of the English (or non-Japanese) texts are wrong.

I say those who disagree with what 203.62.217.146 has to say change this article back at least for the moment. elvenscout742 16:54, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. In my opinion leave it as it is now until someone comes up with something better. Better a sharp, pointed entry than a fictional and misleading one. --AngusH 05:11, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

What you say would make sense, if the "sharp" and "pointed" content in question had any theoric basis. Never saw those claims anywhere else. What I did see, funnily enough, is exactly the "fictional and misleading" claims. I'll refrain from this discussion from now one, though. Better that way.--Kaonashi 00:03, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough, not sure what more I can do to convince you otherwise outside of the link I posted right here as well as my first post above, and the other information I added in my original post, all of which has been taken from a great variety of textbooks on the subject. Please feel free to check out this page, too: The Top 11 Misconceptions About the Samurai. If I still can't sway your opinion, *shrug* what more can I do? --AngusH 03:17, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Either way, it seems to have been fixed now by this PHG figure. I've never seen the claims made by 203.62.217.146 anywhere else, and chances are they were just supporting a wild conspiracy theory or something with little basis in reality. It is good the way it is, and if someone can back up up those unfamiliar claims with fact I will accept it. Until then, the whole "Bushidō didn't exist" argument stands alongside those infernal "Hirohito was evil" and "Japanese people are lazy" rants in my mind. elvenscout742 13:41, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

What's here now is fair enough I guess. Let me clear one thing up though: Bushido did "exist" and I don't mean to imply it didn't, it just wasn't a "code". Bushido simply means "way of the warrior", and there was obviously a "way of the warrior" (i.e.. a way that a warrior could be expected to behave), and it did go by this name. This was more cultural than anything else though, and was the result of centuries of families specialising in the martial arts, and varied in many ways from house to house. Out of interest I picked up my copy of the Cambridge History of Japan volumes 3 & 4 (arguably the best and most complete books you can get on the topic of Japanese history, which explains their price...), which cover the samurai/bushi periods, and checked the index for mentionings of "bushido". There are precious few, I believe only two, neither being longer than a single sentence. I feel this should help people gauge exactly how important bushido was in the grand scheme of things.--AngusH 04:22, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I realise this has all been going on some while ago, and that it's probably all sorted by now, but while I can sit and listen to any argument about the reality or otherwise of Bushido (not being a historian myself and generally unfamiliar with Japanese history), this idea about 'modern seppuku' needs addressing. First, the matter that previous posters here seem to have got hung up on is whether or not Tokyo has barriers on subway stations to prevent suicides. That's not the point. The point is that suicides happen all over the world, and where there are trains there will be people who select that particular method. Similarly, where there are cars that emit carbon monoxide, there will be people who choose that. People throw themselves in front of tube (subway) trains in London almost daily. Is there any reason to believe they are committing a ritual seppuku to reclaim their honour? There are many motivations for suicide, and I think it's an unsafe assertion to claim that people kill themselves for a specific reason based purely on where they are. Japanese-style swords are freely available from the Internet in Britain - I can only assume they're similarly available in Japan. If someone wanted to commit a ritual suicide in this particular style, then I cannot imagine any reason why they would not obtain a sword to do it with - that way at least the method would suggest the reasoning for investigators.--Adaru 11:31, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

I am starting a Samurai / Bushido website

I am giving wikipediots a preview of what will be on it. See the wikipedia SEPPUKU and SAMURAI pages also. Enjoy the links and remember "It is man that makes The Way Great"-- MASARU 5/3/2005

The word "Bushido" did exist as a word before the Tokugawa era

The writings of Imagawa Ryoshun, author of "Michiyukiburi" and "Nan taiheki" mentions "The Way of The Warrior" (Bu Shi Do) in his "regulations" (AD1412). The regulations were respected by traditional Japanese as a guide to correct moral and ethical behavior until world war II.

Afraid not, at least in the Imagawa Letter (or his regulations, as they are more commonly known). The term he uses is budo, which has a very different meaning than the bushido that is being discussed here.--AngusH 04:12, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

-Okay i stand corrected on this point, though i have never read an actual copy of the letter in Kanbun. Imagawa does however, espouse the same Bushido Values that the other warriors did in their codes....in 1412. This is still proof of how early the codes developed.

Samurai fiction

what is it about samurai that so fascinates people that they feel the need to Make up things about them? Bushido has a set of three kanji representing the word. The kanji for "creed" has never, to my knowledge been used in the word for Bu ("military") it is a very distinct symbol. I challenge you to find one mention of the symbol for creed in japanese literature to represent "bushi". That would change the meaning of the word. Japanese people define the meaning of a word by the underlying character, not the romanized pronunciation. Source books in Chinese literature during the warring states period were the source of the adopted "bu shi" characters in Japanese. These books are more than 2000 years old. By the way, "secrets of the samurai" is one book I reluctantly admit to reading...in 1991. It is lame and actually compares budo, bushido and bujutsu which are distant relations.

The Sad Truth About Thomas Conlan-- why would you want to use him as a source?

Historian Wrong About Samurai--http://hnn.us/comments/32133.html

Volume 56 Number 1, January/February 2003 RELICS OF THE KAMIKAZE Excavations off Japan's coast are uncovering Kublai Khan's ill-fated invasion fleet. BY JAMES P. DELGADO http://www.archaeology.org/0301/etc/kamikaze.html

(excerpt)

"In his recent book In Little Need of Divine Intervention, which analyzes two Japanese scrolls that depict the Mongol invasion, Bowdoin College historian Thomas Conlan suggests that a scene showing a samurai falling from his horse as a bomb explodes over him was a later addition. Conlan's research masterfully refutes many of the traditional myths and commonly held perceptions of the invasion, downplaying the number of ships and troops involved and arguing that it was not the storms but the Japanese defenders ashore, as well as confusion and a lack of coordination, that thwarted the khan's two invasions. But his suggestion that the exploding bomb is an anachronism has now been demolished by solid archaeological evidence. Moreover, when the Japanese x-rayed two intact bombs, they found that one was filled just with gunpowder while the other was packed with gunpowder and more than a dozen square pieces of iron shrapnel intended to cut down the enemy. "

Uh, OK. So he is proven wrong thanks to new information, and so should not be used again as a source? I don't think so. There are numerous bits of outdated information in Sansom's three volumes of history on Japan, should we throw those in the garbage too?--AngusH 01:42, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

-Angus, he really went out on a limb and called the artwork faked and made broad assumptions. Thats different from minor (and unintentional) factual errors in Sansom's books. This guy is a publicity seeker. by making outrageous statements he gets attention and sells books

What the article says is that the "exploding bomb is an anachronism has now been demolished by solid archaeological evidence". It does not say his interpretation of the artwork is wrong and even if it were - this is the realm of historical research and opinion. New finds, new information change old ideas. Artwork and manuscripts were altered in both China and Japan quite commonly (in the West also). Figures added, poetry overlayed. Think of a medival wiki. Its not a question of fake but when something was added. As I understand it he made his supposition on style and composition rather than an assumption that bombs were not used. The article goes out of its way to describe most of his premis as masterful. His expressed ideas about samurai (which is what this is about) are not unique to him or other Western historians.Peter Rehse 10:38, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

---Peter. what do the words "suggestion demolished...by solid evidence" mean to you? I take that to mean "incorrect". If you examine what this guy says over his career, he makes bold statements, gets publicity from them and then sells books. Take a look at articles where he comments on "The Last Samurai" movie.

Character Definition Accuracy

Shouldn't 誠 (makoto) be defined as 'sincerity' more than 'truth', to distinguish it from 'shin'?

Biographical Information

I moved the biographical information on Kato to his own, already existing, biography page. That's what links are for. The article is already quite long.Peter Rehse 04:36, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Moved back after discussion.Peter Rehse 05:59, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Please allow intro for Kato Kiyomasa

Hey guys, i dont mean to start a p*ssing contest here, but each lord has a small intro after each quote to describe who he is and a little bit about his persona. This is very important information. If it is okay with you, Lord Kato, probably one of the most impressive Samurai, had his intro stripped off with no discussion. I would like to add that back. I am the person who wrote pretty much this entire page in its current form. If we dont have this intro, it leaves out A LOT of very important details about how Japan ended up in history.

I'm the guy that moved your description to Kato Kiyomasa's own page (please read the discussion point above). I liked what was written but I really do think it belongs there rather than the Bushido section. As I said above that is what links are all about. If we had a similar length addition for everyone mentioned in that article it would be problematic. As it stands now your text is repeated in two places and should be removed from one of them. I'll leave it to you but perhaps you could modify the sentence which first mentions Kato and leave the expansion in the Kato Kiyomasa biography page. Right now the description of the man is longer than what he says about Bushido - more than the usual small intro.Peter Rehse 05:04, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I also didn't realize how much you did contribute to the article. I didn't mean to step on toes.Peter Rehse 05:14, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

-Oh, dont worry, I know I tend to get long winded. I probably have to cut it down some. Kato was the only Lord with no explanatory paragraph afterwards. Kato is significant because he was born the son of a commoner--a blacksmith, and rose up during the short period of social mobility allowed by Toyotomi Hideyoshi. His passage shows that he had lesser appreciation for education and poetry--probably because of his commoner background. It could also be that the Sengoku Daimyo had little time for the luxuries and flowery aspects in life that the Edo Period Samurai appreciated.

Torii Mototada is definitely important because his last statement demonstrates that his adherance to Bushido (his beliefs) caused him to stubornly resist a massive invasion. His belief in Loyalty and Duty changed the course of Japanese history. He clearly says so in his final letter. He also tells his son not to aspire for lordship or desire money.

There are plenty of people out there who say that the Samurai didn't emphasize Bushido or the aspects of loyalty during the Sengoku (Pre-Tokugawa) era, yet here are examples and one of them shifted power away from the Toyotomi to the Tokugawa.

No problem. I'll remove the paragraph from the biography page to sooth my hatred of redundancy so we will be back where we were before. I don't think people are disputing the existance of codes on honor (by whatever name) but there is a bit of reactionism against over romantization. For every example of the higher ideal there is another of the more base. Nitobe tried showing the west how alike Bushido and Chivilry were in the good sense, but one does have to ask how the average knight or samurai behaved. I don't know who it was that critisized Karl Friday above (the advantages of registration) but he lived and studied in Japan, studied one of the older Koryu (has a menkyo kaiden), and has probably read the same texts in Japanese. He certainly doesn't make the case that codes of conduct didn't exist - just that they weren't universily followed.Peter Rehse 05:51, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

-I am not impressed by Karl Friday. I have seen some Bushido articles where he obviously didnt bother to look anything up and tries to say that Bushido is Bull or something in that order. These articles i do not agree with. http://www.koryubooks.com/library/kfriday2.html http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_friday_0301.htm

The article is "Bushidó or Bull? A Medieval Historian’s Perspective on the Imperial Army and the Japanese Warrior Tradition". Not Bushido is Bull. It is complete with references to both English and Japanese articles and makes an interesting and pretty convincing case. The main thrust is a comparison between what the Imperial Army defined and glorified as Bushido and what the medieval samurai knew as such. If anything his case is that the behaviour of the Japanese imperial army during WWII was a propagandistic corruption of the Japanese Warrior Tradition. I would certainly like to think so. I personally think Dr. Karl Friday does a very good job and would recommend his books. "Hired Swords: The Rise of Private Warrior Power in Japan." is a bit academic, while Legacies of the Sword: The Kashima-Shinryu and Samurai Martial Culture is mainly about the Koryu he trained in while studying history in Japan. I never got the impression that he was not intimately familiar with his area of expertise which extends far beyond English language sources. I'm pretty sure he has read the same stuff you have and far more (ie Japanese sources). Not trying to put Karl Friday up or your perspective down but I really don't see him disagreeing with your overall thesis. I will say that accusing him of not cracking a book or looking things up is a bit off.Peter Rehse 08:39, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

• • Peter, My Great Grandfather and several of my great uncles served in the Japanese Imperial Army in Manchuria and in other areas before and during World War II. At least one uncle was a Kamikaze pilot at the age of 17. Some of them were descendants of high ranked warrior families. I can tell you with some certainty that the articles above over simplify and are simply not true in some parts. My uncle who was a Kamikaze pilot is still alive and he tells me how the government trained and indoctrinated them. We have long discussions at the dinner table about this. I found out that he was a pilot after knowing him for my entire life. Last year he showed me pictures of his Aviation squadron with him dressed in white formal uniform. We had to ask him directly if he was a Kamikaze and he answered "yes", went to his closet and produced a real katana. He was feeling nostalgic that day and showed us pictures of the reunion of the surviving pilots in Japan he attended recently. We probably would have gone the rest of our lives not knowing, if we didnt ask about it. He is a close relative and we see him often, but they never speak of such things because of manners.

My great uncle died within the last few years and he told stories of being captured, sent to Siberia and escaping to return to Japan, years after the war was over. My mother said that he had been declared dead by the government and funerals held. They all told the stories of experiences in the Imperial Army. Another uncle returned home emaciated, having survived by eating insects in the pacific islands. He also returned years later after the war. We have written and verbal accounts of my great grandfathers experiences in Manchuria. My grandmothers family were the highest ranked members of the Date Clan for hundreds of years and they served until the Meiji restoration. My grandfathers side of the family served as Buddhist ministers and are currently 19th generation descendants in the same building! They live in a temple in Kumamoto-ken founded the by the feudal lord Kato Kiyomasa. The temple celebrated its 400th anniversary a few years ago. It has been passed down from father to oldest son for 400 years. There was a direct passing down of values from the old feudal families to the generations who fought in the pacific. The values were passed on and didnt change until after the war.

There are several websites containing the writings of Kamikaze. Many of them are final letters before they went on the last mission. You can see that they were well aware that the government asked them to do things that they did not agree with and cite the treachery or tricks of politcians, but they agreed to go anyways. They cited the beauty and values of their mother land as the reason. I could easily refute these articles point by point. I will have to take the time to reread them.

11/19/2005

By the by William Scott Wilson is trained in political science (BA) and literature (BA), not history. I think he does a great job in translating (I have all but his last book) but a historians, approach is much more critical. That is something that must be understood when comparing Mr.s Friday and Wilson. I know I mentioned it above but Karl Friday's immersion in one of the oldest extant koryu also gives him a very unique view point of what Bushido is and isn't. A Menkyo Kaiden is far beyond Saturday morning sword swinging. By comparison William Scott Wilson is an outsider looking in.Peter Rehse 09:11, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

• Wilson consulted with and listed in his book the names of all of the experts he used. The book I quoted "Ideals of the Samurai was exhaustively reseached. Wilson's skills are obviously very good since he was selected by the Japanese Embassy to work as an advisor. Like I said, I have first hand knowledge of the experiences of the Kamikaze, the Imperial Army and how these people were indoctrinated. I also have a little first hand knowledge of Samurai, because oral and written history has been passed down in the family. This is easily corroborated by historical record. The so-called "experts" are in deep trouble because just a small fraction of existing writings have been translated into English. The Samurai House codes are relatively unexplored and they provide the greatest insight into what the warriors were really about. Wilson was on the right track and he opened the door into a interesting area of research. That is why I am a fan of his books.

He recently received an award ffrom the Consulate General of Japan: http://www.miami.us.emb-japan.go.jp/PRAWARD4.HTML

__This Wikipedia was a mess when I first saw it. People were saying Bushido started in the Tokugawa era and anyone who has ever used a Japanese dictionary knows this isnt true. Look at the silly debates above. The Samurai House Codes are strikingly similar over time and geographic location spanning hundreds of years. My point is that you can read what Imagawa wrote in 1412 and what Kato and Torii wrote circa 1600 and they are nearly the same- emphasizing loyalty and respect for elders, etc. People dont even realize that if it wasnt for Bushido and the aspect of loyalty, Tokugawa could have been captured at his headquarters at Fushimi.... and killed. (Tokugawa actually considered devoting his troops to the defense of Fushimi and making a stand there)

It took a lot of political manuvering and a small miracle (the defection of a major lord during the battle) for Tokugawa to win Sekigahara which was THE battle of all battles in Japan. It decided the fate of the entire country for hundreds of years

-if you do a google search for the word "Bushido" this entry comes up almost at number one....and it was terrible. It is really important that it be accurate because so many people read it. The wikipedia entry for "Seppuku" said that it was a "shameful act, rare and caused the person to lose their estate" which is absolutely wrong. (I have since provided the links and material heavily used in SEPPUKU, SAMURAI and RONIN definitions) The entry for "Ronin" said that it was a person "who had foresaken honor and failed to commit seppuku" again totally wrong. For some odd reason Japanese history and Samurai attracts a large number of people who make up "facts". This is the first step in setting the record straight. I have about a dozen more translations and some from Wilson's book that demonstrate the uniformity of Samurai codes over time and geography.

Personally I am not that hung up on the word. If a different term was used to describe essentially the same thing during different periods that is fine. Just as point of discussion, the defections to Tokugawa were not only decisive but a clear example of a failure to follow the ideals of Bushido (ie loyalty). Historically intances of ideals being set aside for convenience abound. This is, in my opinion, an important consideration when describing the who and what the samurai were. Of course this article is about Bushido not all aspects of the samurai.Peter Rehse 07:08, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

-Bushido or the House codes from which Bushido developed were suprisingly static over the years given the fact that they developed from Buddhism and the Chinese classics such as the Analects of Confucious. As far as loyalty goes, here is my undertanding of it: The Samurai usually pledged loyalty to their immediate lord, whom they probably served for many years. In many cases, their ancestors served the ancestors of their immediate leader for several generations. These regional lords pledged loyalty to higher level lords such as the Toyotomi and Tokugawa. These alliances DID shift according to convenience and compensation. If you look at the Samurai ideal, what they wrote, you will see that they did admire loyalty to their immediate superior. The study of the chinese classics which were already very ancient, reinforces filial piety, etc...

-another important point is that a lot of people say that the "way of the warrior is death" (emphasis on death) began in the Edo period. These entries clearly show the Sengoku Daimyo stating "a samurai's only duty is to grasp the sword and die" and Torii states " i will stand off the forces of the entire country and die a resplendant death". Another Myth dispelled.

Post your sources

I vote to remove the Chamberlain and Karl Friday sections. These people are not doing their reading.

Chamberlain:

"Shinto, the notion of loyalty to the Emperor, and bushido, which he notes does not appear in any dictionary before 1900. In critiquing bushido Chamberlain declared, “Chivalrous individuals of course existed in Japan, as in all countries at every period; but Bushido, as an institution or a code of rules, has never existed. "

REAL SAMURAI WARLORD: In his writings, Shiba Yoshimasa dictated that a warrior should not hesitate to lay down his life for an important cause such as the defense of the emperor:

First, a man whose profession is the use of arms should think and then act upon not only his own fame, but also that of his descendants. He should not scandalize his name forever by holding his one and only life too dear. On the other hand, in the light of this, to consider this life that is given to us only once as nothing more than dust and ashes, and lose it at a time when one should not, would be to gain a reputation that is not worth mentioning. One's main purpose in throwing away his life is to do so either for the sake of the Emperor or in some great undertaking of a military general.

REAL SAMURAI Warlord:

Several famous sengoku daimyo mention Bushido in their writings. Lord Kato Kiyomasa (1562-1611) orders his men to follow it:

If a man does not investigate into the matter of Bushido daily, it will be difficult for him to die a brave and manly death. Thus it is essential to engrave this business of the warrior into one's mind well.....One should put forth great effort in matters of learning. One should read books concerning military matters, and direct his attention exclusively to the virtues of loyalty and filial piety.....Having been born into the house of a warrior, one's intentions should be to grasp the long and the short swords and to die.

KARL FRIDAY:

"Bushido" is a very tricky term, one of those we're probably all best off just forgetting about. It was scarcely used at all until the modern period (in fact, Nitobe, whose Bushido: the Soul of Japan did more than any other work to publicize the term, thought he had invented it!).

Tell that to Kato Kiyomasa.

Even as a kind of historiographic term--i.e. a modern label for warrior ideology--"bushido" is a problematic construct. There was very little discussion in written form of proper "warrior-ness," except for legal codes developed by daimyo, until the Tokugawa period.

• This is absolutely false

The concept of a code of conduct for the samurai was a product of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, when Japan was at peace, not the medieval "Age of the Country at War."

*What he means is that there is very little translated into ENGLISH which Americans can read. Just because it is not translated doesnt mean it doesnt exist. (see above examples) There are hundreds of additional house codes and writings which are untranslated and they clearly spell out the qualities of Bushido.

The Japanese Dictionary definition of Bushido:

According to the Japanese dictionary Shogakukan Kokugo Daijiten: "Bushido is defined as a unique philosophy (ronri) that spread through the warrior class from the Muromachi (chusei) period."

---

I'm not sure who you are as you have not signed your name.

• What does posting my name have to do with the fact that you are posting false material?

I added a quotation from Chamberlain for balance. A quote from a respected Japanologist

• If you call a person a "respected Japanologist" who didnt bother to read the Samurai writings or the dictionary, you are not doing enough research.

is not "false information" (as was stated by the person who removed it). If you feel that Chamberlain's view is incorrect, add a paragraph proving him wrong.

• I'd like to see you post a holocaust denial on a Jewish website. I already DID post the material proving him wrong. You are suffering from the same problem as Chamberlin: Denial and failure to read Japanese literature.

Is this your response to my challenge to add a refutation to Chamberlain? Sorry, I can't see how doubts about "Bushido" rank up there with "holocaust denial". In addition to which, the refutation needs to be posted in the article itself.

Censoring -- deleting -- views that you don't agree with is not the way to go. In fact, these views are quite widely held and some mention should be made of them, otherwise the article can only be described as biased.

• You are intentionally posting false material it will be deleted by admistrator if necessary. Read the actual 750+ year old writings and learn. Chamberlin didnt even bother to read the dictionary.

Which dictionary? Shogakukan Kokugo Daijiten? So anything that disagrees with you will be deleted? On whose say-so? You haven't even identified yourself.

Bathrobe 06:44, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

• What part are you not understanding? Chamberlain claims that loyalty to the emperor didnt exist. I posted writings of a warlord who stated that you should die for the emporer. Entire families existed to serve the emporer. These "Japanologists" as you call them are the same thing as the Holocaust denial people.

"the notion of loyalty to the Emperor, and bushido, which he notes does not appear in any dictionary before 1900." DUHHHHHHH come on.

There are significant point-of-view differences over this issue. If you are so confident you are right, you shouldn't be afraid to put a note concerning this in the article itself. It would help your credibility a great deal. People coming to this article are going to conclude it's written by a fanatic. You can't simply ignore the doubts that have been raised about the authenticity of Bushido (the doubts being that Meiji-period bushido was a very different animal from the actual warrior codes of the feudal era). The only way to deal with these doubts is to post a short paragraph refuting them. To do otherwise is to do users of Wikipedia a disservice.

Bathrobe 07:43, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

• I posted a relevant quote from several translations of writings which are ancient (375 to 750 years old). These disprove the idiots who try to claim that Bushido is a Edo Period invention and that loyalty was never emphasized etc. The largest Japanese dictionaries state that it developed in the Muromachi Period. The only "doubts" come from people who had limited exposure to Japanese literature. Chamberlin probably based his views on the Hagakure and Edo period works.

The doubts and the refutations have to go in the article. Can it be so painful? Something along the lines of: "Some modern Western observers have claimed that both the word 'Bushido' and Bushido as an institution or a code of rules was fabricated in the Edo period, and that its application to the Emperor was an innovation of the Meiji Period. However, the word Bushido has been attested in.... The concept of samurai loyalty to the Emperor is also found in (source and date).”

Bathrobe 08:11, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

• I wouldnt be caught dead posting material from those sources. They are blatantly false and should be ommitted at all cost. Why give idiots free press? I would rather read the translations of what the men actually said.

But if other people post information from these sources, you are not within your rights to delete it. This is not your personal encyclopaedia and not your personal article. You would have a hard time getting the administrator to side with you.

Bathrobe 08:27, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

• I wrote pretty much this entire page myself. I left some material out of respect to others that I do not agree with. When i first got here, Bushido was defined as" a code developed during the Edo Period" or something similar to that, which is totally false. I posted my sources, where all of the quotes came from and they date back more than 700 years. I am familiar with these two sources which are blatantly false. These men did not bother to read beyond Hagakure.

Link to "Samurai Creed" should be reconsidered

I cant find any mention of Samurai Creed in Japanese Literature. I think this is a modern invention and should be omitted

People posting here seem to have the bad habit of not identifying themselves.

Bathrobe 07:48, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

• Not identifying yourself is not the problem. I cannot find the "Samurai Creed" in any historical document. It is more than likely a modern construction. I challenge the poster of this material to post the source LIKE I DID for my quotes.