User talk:Chris Brennan

Reply

Hi ,

Sorry , I am not a professional astrologer . But I have been interested in every thing occult/esoteric , so I have read a lot about astrology ( mainly vedic & western , & a little bit of chinese & native american). If UR interested in predictive astrology , IMO vedic is the best way to go . I had downloaded some books from this site once. [1] . It has almost all the classical texts on which Vedic astrology is based . Most important ones are BPHS ( brihat parashara horashastra ) & Kalyana Varma's Sāravalī . They also explain different concepts like varga ( divisional charts ) , Nakshatra ( Lunar mansions ) , Dasha ( Planetery periods ) , Yogas ( Planetery combinations ) that arnt available in western astrology .

A question from my side , have U ever heard of vedic non-luminous planets , what do modern astrologers think of them ?

Thanx for your time . Hopefully we will keep in touch . Peace . Farhansher 20:04, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Tropical Astrology

Thanks for your comments on my changes to Astrology posted on my user talk page.

The sentence in question starts, "The majority of Western astrologers base their work on the tropical zodiac, which correlates with the seasons…" . This is a true statement and I have no problem with it.

The phrase I objected to is "….and uses the same reference point (First Point of Aries) as modern astronomy." . I objected because it is misleading to the reader. In one swoop it tries to hide the fact that western astrology has divorced itself from the actual positions of stars in the sky and at the same time give it the respectability of astronomy. I believe this is a weak position and that it is Sidereal astrology which bears the closest relationship to astronomy. The Wikipedia article should not try to further the argument between sidereal and western astrologers but to explain the two systems in as jargon free way as possible.

Also astronomers do not define the vernal point as the first degree of Aries. They use it as the zero point in a 360 degree reference system. The constellation of Aries is now between 1h 40m and 3h 30m Right ascension from this point, that is about 25 to 45 degrees. This discrepency between actual constellation and tropical zodiac gets bigger every year that passes and yet tropical astrologers continue to tell the public that their work relates to the stars. If as you say tropical astrology relates to the seasons then why are the signs not revered in the southern hemisphere. Many Australean neopagans observe the vernal equinox in September , logically tropical astrology should do the same for those born south of the equator. Lumos3 22:12, 9 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

On ASTROLOGY PAGE

Chris, I'd like you to "define" lack of NPOV regarding the Astrology page. You are still a student I see. Are you a professional, experienced astrologer? I am a judicial astrologer, am in my early 40s and have practiced and taught professionally for 24 years. See my Talk Page for more.Theo 01:57, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I see that you are interested in integrating Vedic, western and classical astrology into one system.Theo 05:26, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Re: a difficult person

If I can give some un-asked-for advice, don't respond to him in kind. If he keeps on as he has, he's going to end up involved in dispute resolution. Try to ignore his personnal attacks. He's digging himself a hole; there's no need to join him in it. Best case, as he gets more experience here he'll mend his ways. Best regards, Tom Harrison ^(talk) 02:10, 20 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest a More Positive Attitude from you

Dear Chris, I would suggest a more positive attitude from you. You last note continues to sound accusatory, and this is not helpful when engaging in discussion. I would appreciate it very much if you would stop referring to anyone's edits as "messing around" which is surely not what I am doing. I suggest we discuss with respect, and class, and not immaturity. Also suggest you refer to transit squares and oppositions to natal Pluto, Saturn, and your lunar nodes. Perhaps a re-check of these and coming transits by natal & progressed positions may shed some light and help you neutralize them;Theo 03:31, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Theo- I have attempted to engage in rational discussions with you already several times, but these have all failed and you usually resort to condescending remarks and thinly veiled personal attacks whenever you are proven wrong, as you appear to do in all of your interactions with others on Wikipedia. Here are a few of the highlights of the things that you have said to me so far:

"Suggest you gain more years of practical astrological practice under your belt before writing on the subject seriously."
"This statement by you indicates a serious lack of knowledge of the subject. Suggest you study extensively because of the copious materials out there. Try taking a visit to Europe where you can spend time actually reading some of the original materials on astrology - because then you will have more knowledge to add to your studies."
"At your age, how can you even be qualified to state that there is a "misreading of Ptolemy?" You are not an astrologer yet - but a student of astrology."
"Really? Then you truly have much more to learn."
"I suggest you do that rather first before making changes on this subject. You are too young yet to make such absolute statements - particularly on astrology."
"I suggest you re-read Ptolemy and stop wasting my valuable time with your long statements based on your lack of knowledge."
"You express a lack of serious astrological knowledge and should know better."
"But, if I catch you reading one chart as as "professional" Chris, when you clearly are not yet a professional astorloger - I will report you. This is a SERIOUS science and clients come to a professional with serious issues and you are not yet qualified - considering your statements here that show your lack of astrological knowledge - to be able to practice professionally. Put your time FIRST. Studying astrology is NOT the same as practicing in the real world. Understand? You are still a student. Don't go out there pretending to be a professional astrologer when you are not one yet."
"And, just who do you think you are to make such conclusionary statements on Astrology? You are a STUDENT Chris, and NOT a professional, experienced astrologer, or a teacher. You have a long way to go depending on the honesty and hard work you are willing to put into the subject."
"Suggest you do more reading and study."

And you have balls to try and tell me that you "suggest a more positive attitude" from me and that my "last note continues to sound accusatory, and this is not helpful when engaging in discussion."??? Yeah right! If you continue to try and post spurious information in the astrology articles and pass it off as a minor edit, even when I have clearly proven with several sources that your assertions are faulty in the talk page of the article, then I will continue to revert them just like everyone else is doing. --Chris Brennan 04:48, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and I meant my words. You are too young to practice astrology professionally. Wait until after your first Saturn Return. Keep studying, yes, but gain more worldly experience. You may take exception to what I said earlier, but I mean it. There are too many inexperienced "astrologers" out there who use that term so loosely that it damages the profession. I practice it. And so do other professionals. You are still a student; yet say on your Talk Page that you are an astrologer. At 21?

Re/ words: I agree to treat you with kid gloves, you will agree to back off from the language and the wild assumptions you make about me. Which, by the way, are in error. Again, in your language in the last message: "you have the balls to ..." is aggressive. Also, you appear to be using all manner of guises to apparently hide some lack of astrological knowledge & experience. I suggest if you are to make these weak threats concering "sourcing" that you do your homework and check them first before writing such childish statements. I am a grown man, a professional, with a family and consider your tone, language, and statements disrespectful: especially from a 21-year-old who has much more experience and knowledge to gain. You still have not responded to the source information. Your tone remains hostile, and you appear to show no respect; though you say you are an "astrologer." At the age of 21 I'd like to see you prove this with knowledge, citing quality sources and getting back on point rather than the use of accusatory language, false statements (back them up if true) and urging of revert wars. Again, suggest you check your own transits, as your Saturn/Pluto/Lunar Nodes are aspected now, and will continue to be in the near future.Theo 04:53, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Sources? Oh, right. You mean like that time just yesterday when you mistakenly thought that you were quoting Ptolemy, but instead you were quoting a 10th century Arab astrologer. And then when I pointed it out and cited three reputable sources you ignored it and tried to post the article again anyways? --Chris Brennan 05:05, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Chris, let me ask you this: how is it possible for Claudius Ptolemy to rise from the grave; transport himself to the 10th century, and "steal" aphorisms that had his own name on them in the first place? Just how is this possible?Theo 05:09, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Theo, I think that I was very clear about this in my post when I said that

The Centiloquy is attributed to Ptolemy. That doesn't mean that he actually was the author. In fact, modern scholars agree that he was not the author of that work. In the ancient world it wasn't looked down upon to attribute some other famous author's name to your own work, but rather, sometimes that was how you drew attention to and gave prestige to what would otherwise be an obscure work. The highly respected historian of sciences and head of the department of the history of mathematics at Brown University, David Pingree, writes in his work From Astral Omens To Astrology, From Babylon To Bikaner that "Ahmad ibn Yusuf's Kitab al-thamara or Καρπός, known in its Latin version as the Centiloquium, and attributed falsely, already by Ahmad, to Ptolemy..." Another historian, James Holden, agrees and writes in his book A History of Horoscopic Astrology that "A collection of 100 astrological aphorisms called Karpos 'fruit' in Greek and Centiloquium 'Hundred Sayings' in Latin was attributed to Claudius Ptolemy in the Middle Ages. It is certainly not his..." Even in my edition of the Centiloquium, which was published recently by contemporary traditional astrologers at RenaissanceAstrology.com, the pubisher Christopher Warnock writes in the preface: "The first complete Latin translation from Arabic was done in 1136 and as many as 10 different versions existing in manuscript form. It was traditionally accepted as the work of Ptolemy, though modern scholarship has established that the probable author was the 10th century Arabic astrologer Abu Jafar Ahmad ibn Yusuf."

In other words, Ptolemy didn't write the Centiloquy. It was written by an Arab astrologer named Abu Jafar Ahmad ibn Yusuf in the 10th century, and he attributed it to Ptolemy so that people would read it and so that his work would gain notoriety. This was common practice, and there are many other examples of other authors doing this with astrological works in the Middle Ages. This isn't some personal opinion of mine or something. This is something that is agreed by text editors and historians that have examined the texts and the original manuscripts, and I quoted those people directly. --Chris Brennan 05:23, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, as far as internal textual evidence goes, there are certain things which clearly show that this could not be the work of Ptolemy. For example, several of the aphorisms make explicit references to Horary astrology, which is not something that Ptolemy addressed at all in the Tetrabiblos. One of the reasons for this, among others, is that interrogational astrology (ie. horary) was not developed until the 2nd and 3rd centuries and this development occurred in India within the Hindu tradition. (See Pingree, 1996, pg. 21) Horary was not a part of the mainstream tradition of Hellenistic astrology from which Ptolemy and his contemporaries were drawing on, and it did not become integrated into the western tradition of horoscopic astrology until the Middle Ages when the various Arab and Persian astrologers undertook a synthesis of the Indian, Persian and Hellenistic traditions. So you see, even the internal evidence in the text itself with the references to horary show that this could not have been the work of Claudius Ptolemy. --Chris Brennan 06:23, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

See my response on the Astrology Page to this. It is often repeated, but not with proof. The Centiloquy is the "fruit of his four books" - the Tetrabiblos. However, I would not go as far to say that horary was not practiced until the Second & Third Centuries. There are practices that go back before the time of Christ.Theo 06:27, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Stay collected

Anybody who takes the time to read your conversations (you know which ones) can easily discern who does their research, who backs up assertions with research, and who is in the right. Now, just stay calm, and you should come out on top. Don't give him the satisfaction of seeing your anger expressed. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 18:34, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

A Request

Dear Chris, I would like to request that when I make an addition, or an edit on the astrology page, or any other page that you do not immediately make an "accusation" that I am trying to do "something" negative. I am a Wikipedian, a professional astrologer, and a writer and resent your edit summaries that associate my fixing of a typo, or addition as a accusation. I suggest professional, and respectful comments from you, rather than the personal attacks on edit summaries. This runs counter to good Wikipedia behavior. Please refrain from posting attack lines on me or anyone personally. If you have a question for me regarding any article addition, then I suggest you ask me first before posting accusations as if you are correct in assuming that I have some kind of malefic intent. I have no such intent. If you ask me, I will kindly answer. If you have issues, then ask as well and I will do my best to provide you with an answer as to why I wrote anything. If you have ideas on improvement; I am open to thoughts and ideas as well. But, making accusations, and writing rude comments on Edit Summaries does not lead to improvement anywhere. I have the same right you do to write, and edit as a Wikipedian, and request you respect that without resorting to personal attacks on Talk Pages or Edit Summaries. You do not know me Chris, and assume many things which are in error concerning any intent of mine. I welcome positive discussion and working together - but not when attacks are made. Please refrain from doing so. Thanks.Theo 04:00, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Theo, intially I was on your side and I attempted to work with you and be civil with you concerning all of the massive edits that you were attempting to push through on the various astrology articles by repeatidly reposting them until you got banned several times. You responded with numerous personal attacks and flat out refused to compromise even the slightest bit with any of the articles that you keep trying to post, even though it has been shown by both astrologers and skeptics alike that your articles have major flaws and are far too biased for an encyclopedia. But still you refuse to change them and you just keep trying to post the same exact article that you have been trying to push through for over a month now. I'm also really just tired of your dishonesty. I can't believe that you could write a sentence just now saying that you resent my edit summaries and then turn around and completely rewrite the Astrology article and mark it as a minor edit and write in the edit summary "(corrected typo)". That is called lying Theo. Look it up. I don't work well with liars. If you really want to work with me then I'm totally be up for it and we could really improve the whole astrology section of wikipedia. All you gotta do is stop with the bullshit man. --Chris Brennan 04:51, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is what I mean. Rather than asking, Chris, you accuse. So, I suggest that you either find a way to repair this, or refrain from addressing me at all. I don't resent your edits: in fact, I think you have a lot to offer. Moreover, nothing of the like has been shown. I added to the astrology article. I am an experienced, professional astrologer. I have more to offer and will do so. I don't care for your assumptions, accusations, and unprofessional manner and snobbishness. Moreover, Chris, I don't like being called a "liar" or "dishonest" or being "biased" - and then have you write this on Talk Pages, and on edit summaries. I kindly asked you once to please stop, and I am now asking you again. I also don't like you using profane words with me (bullsh__) and leaving me rude messages. If you stop with the false accusations, and assumptions, then ok, if not, I will report you. I've already saved and printed this page as one example of your personal attacks and rude comments and bad language. I suggest you find a better, honest, and professional manner appropriate to a student of astrology and leave your resentments, anger, and bad manners, and profanity at home. It has no place in the Wikipedia community.Theo 06:18, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Go ahead Theo, report me. C'mon, I dare you. You have pissed off dozens of good, honest people here on wikipedia already with your behavior and I would like to see what the officials would say when you attempt to bring spurious reports against me. So please, by all means. --Chris Brennan 06:34, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Citing Sources on the Wiki-Astrology Article

Dear Chris, if you are to revert my edits on the Astrology article stated "POV-pushing" suggest you remember that the article is sourced. Your version is not. I ask you to use the TalkPage before reverting and get off taking things personally. Thanks.Theo 04:37, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

All of the "sources" that you cited are out of date, not to mention the fact that none of them back up your assertions. Also, everyone on the astrology talk page has agreed that your version is not accurate and it should not be allowed to replace the previous article. In light of that, I think that you should be using the talk page before you try and revert the entire article back to the essay that you wrote a month ago. --Chris Brennan 04:44, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Chris, suggest you follow Wikipedia standards, and source materials. Your version has no sources, and this is critical since it avoids claims of POV-pushing that you constantly make. I suggest you please halt with personal issues and get back to work here. I would love to work with you. Please cite sources and halt your instant reverts. That would help greatly. Thanks.Theo 04:55, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sources aren't just random books that you pulled out of your library Theo. They are supposed to support the arguments that you are trying to make. Unfortunately none of the "sources" that you cited do that, so basically you just have a few random book references added to your essay with no quotations. In your essay you are still trying to attribute sayings to Ptolemy that he did not say. I have already proven this, yet you sill keep trying to post it anyways. What about that, huh? --Chris Brennan 05:00, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest you not make asumptions Chris. Cite sources for the astrology article. This avoids POV-pushing, and helps the reader as well - leading to astrological books of note referenced in the Wikipedia page. My writing is not an "essay" but adds encyclopedic information. I would like to improve the article, and my relationship with you as a fellow Wikipedian. I would also suggest that on your Talk Page that you not refer to yourself as an "astrologer" since your studies are only five years ongoing since the age of 16 years old. I am a professional astrologer, and writer in his mid-40s - more than twice your age. I have the knowledge and experience to add to the encyclopedic topic of astrology. You are not equal in knowledge, nor experience to me, or any other astrologer with over 25 years experience. I suggest you remember this, and apply yourself accordingly. This would be best, and would work for you if you are honest about you having only five years of study. Thanks.Theo 05:06, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Feeling a little insecure Theodore? Of course you are. Thats why you resort statements like this when you know your wrong. Its very unbecoming of an astrologer with as much wisdom and years of experience as you. Thats too bad... --Chris Brennan 05:12, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why exactly are you doing all of this Theo? I don't understand it. What is the point? All of these arguments with people here? What do you get out of it? --Chris Brennan 05:33, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The point of citing sources is, again, that it avoids POV-pushing, as you claim. Feeling insecure? You make assumptions again. Not at all. Arguements with people? Most people on Wikipedia have these arguements, and it is not new. I agree with as many people as I disagree with and the same is true with others. I don't get anything out of it. I am experienced, and as a journalist, and astrologer have long experience dealing with people who agree, and disagree with one another. Nothing is new in that. I do not expect others to agree 100-percent with me, nor do I assume that I will agree completely with them either. That's life. Lastly Chris, one of the reasons why I am not open fully to you here is because you state you are an astrologer. You know full well that you are not an astrologer - yet you continue claim that you are. If you return to being a student, and assume that role, as I had to do when I was your age, then you will leave behind the many assumptions you make - and you do presume much too much. I suggest you re-phrase it as a "student of astrology". Do you think Chris, that at age 21, that you are equal in knowledge to a professional astrologer with more years of experience than you've been alive? So, you can perhaps put yourself in my shoes regarding this before making assumptions about me. I have taught, and teach students of astrology, and am not kind to ones that presume - it is very bad for astrological practice, and worse for the profession. We have enough "pseudo-astrologers" around who damage astrology with weak arguements and presumptions. I do not take a weak stance on this, as you suggest. Why? Because I am experienced. If you had enough astrological practice & experience, you'd know that professional astrologers are tough as nails. They need to be. One more thing Chris. I actually know quite a bit about Hellenistic astrology, and culture, and would love to share discussions on this with you because, despite what you may assume, I think you are a serious student of astrology. Don't confuse my writing, edits, etc., with a bad attitude. You would be wrong. There are many POV battles in Wikipedia going on. Look for yourself. I would prefer not to be involved with them, but you cannot control what another person presumes, or "sees" according to ignotance of transits, or their POV. However, remember, that respect to an elder astrologer is paramount to success. I had to give respect to my elder astrologers, and did so Chris. I learned much more because of this. There is a lesson to be learned, and when you reach your 30s and 40s Chris, believe me, you will expect it too from astrology students. Also, please do not take what I say to you personally, because, it is not meant that way. However, to reach out to you, I will apologize here to you if you feel that I have attacked you, because it was not intended. I am this way with all students of astrology. Some, who first resented my strict approach, now consider me a good friend, and teacher, and return to me with kind words for helping them to become qualified judicial astrologers. So, nothing I write to you is personal, because it is not. I think you are gathering a lot of good knowledge, but you have a long way to go Chris, before becoming a professional astrologer. I knew of Kepler before it started up. If you stick with your studies, and avoid stating you are an astrologer before your time (Saturn Return) then you will go on to success, and avoid the pitfalls that will come you way if you proceed prematurely. So, let's get a fresh start, and see if we can get this right, and move on, ok?Theo 06:05, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV work

Just thought I'd drop by and say that - as a skeptic - I'm impressed by your efforts to keep the Astrology etc articles on the level. Very heartening, particularly in light of many other recent edits. Adrian.baker 08:37, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I appreciate it. --Chris Brennan 16:20, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well the point of Wikipedia edits is to "be bold" and the Astrology page is a part of this Wikipedia philosophy for editors. As an experienced, veteran professional astrologer, I intend to do just exactly that - be bold.Theo 03:24, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Complaint

OK, Chris, I have added my comment to your impressive complaint! Hope it helps! Best --PL 10:37, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Chris, I reworded a few things (hope you don't mind), and added my info and signed the RfC. Take care. Jim62sch 11:23, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Chris, I've added my own 2 cents to the complaint, although I wasn't strictly `invited' as such. I hope it helps out. My concerns with Theo were over his edits to Science, although he never broke the 3RR on that one. Should I add those examples to the complaint? --huwr 12:52, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Yes, you might as well add those examples to the complaint. I'm aware that there are a lot of examples that I didn't add in initially, but I was hoping that people would make additions based upon their interactions and issues with Theo. --Chris Brennan 15:26, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Chris; I've signed as endorsing the summary. Tom Harrison ^Talk 14:16, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]