Talk:Confucius

His philosophy, which drew from Taoism...

Um, not that I'm an expert with Confucianism, but as far as I know, Confucian literature and Daoist literature are full of invectives against each other. Confucius even openly ridicules the Daoist concept of "wu wei" ("non-acting" - OK, OK, dubious translation). I was under the strong impression that Confucianism and Daoism were indeed the two opposite poles of Chinese philosophy - or am I wrong here?

(comment by Xiemaisi originally on talk:Confucianism)

No, this is correct, much Confucian thought is dependant on the precursory Tao Te Ching, and in fact puts great stress on wu wei. Confucius admittedly thought that governmental action would keep people's actions in check, but also held that government by example de and correct etiquette and manners li was more socially efficient. sjc

Just wanted to add my support. I've read the novel about Confucius, by Yang Shu'an, and even though Confucius actually meets Lao Tze (Lao Zi) and think him an original charactar with lots of depth, Taoism is not the fundament of Confucianistic philosophy. That is, however, the rules of propriety. Sigg3.net

I know this is beginning to sound finicky, but how can you be sure that the Dao De Jing is precursory to Confucianism? AFAIK there are very different opinions about its date of origin. Some say it was actually written by Laozi in the 6th century BCE, others claim Laozi is a fiction and the Dao De Jing was written by some disciples of an unknown master in the 4th century BCE ... so isn't it a bit dubious to outrightly claim Confucius was influenced by it? I mean, wouldn't it be more appropriate to say that Confucianism and Daoism drew from common sources?

Besides, I still think that the differences between Confucianism and Daoism outweigh their similiarities. As I've said before I don't know that much about it, but what about their respective attitudes towards knowledge and learning? I think learning is quite important for Confucius (see first sentence of the Analects), whereas the Dao De Jing is very skeptical of it (see Dao De Jing, 81: "The extensively learned do not really know." - translation taken from http://www.human.toyogakuen-u.ac.jp/~acmuller/contao/laotzu.htm). Or is this just an unimportant facet?

-- Xiemaisi

No, you don't sound finicky, you're making a number of very valid and also vexed points. The whole area is very, very, grey, and is in fact seriously into the realm of archaeological conjecture. The Ma-Wang-Tui manuscripts of the Tao te Ching have been dated to around the first part of the 3rd century BCE, with much earlier silk manuscripts referring to the Tao, Confucius is thought to have lived around 551-479 BCE. Some people think that Confucius was contemporaneous with Lao-Tzu; others that the compilation of the Tao was a group act and which predates Confucius by a very long way. My reading of it is that the Analects have critical dependencies upon the Tao te Ching which the Tao does not upon the Analects, therefore the supposition has to be that the Tao is older than the Analects.

I think also you have to see the text of the Tao as being something other than prima-facie; it is, to my mind, a highly ironic text, and phrases such as "The extensively learned do not really know" more than adequately make this point... It's self-referential to the nth degree, whereas the Analects are altogether more earnest. They are very different texts in this respect, and substantially different in their underlying philosophies, but Confucianism, to my way of thinking, is a reaction against something which it is secretly hankering to be but can't quite attain. We'll have to disagree on this one, I suspect! sjc

On Confucius, the Chinese roots are typed in square brackets but link to non-Wikipedia pages. What's the correct format here?

Added some old lecture notes of mine to what was little more than a stub when i got to it (what were all these people debating about?) Could we ask a native Chinese speaker to pinyinise the names and terms? Thanks --- clasqm Later Oops sorry, didn't see the redirect to Confucius/Talk, I was referrring to <Confucianism/Talk>>

I heared that confucius had 300 wifes and 400 concubines (or the other way round). Is that true? -- Michael

This a part of its legend, I guess. -- Anon

Do you really believe that such a thing has validty?........ --Menchi (Talk)â 10:38, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Suggestions

IMHO few things are missing is this page (or Confucianism):

Xunzi (not Sunzi) is considered as the other great follower of Kongzi and should be mentioned
Zhu Xi is a important Song renovator of Confucianism
Kongzi's problem with women is in fact a problem with Confucianism and only very few Analects are talking about women's
So, IMHO, it should be said somewhere that, even if Confucianism is a bit of "oppressive", this is not directly related to the man himself, but to the fact that its philosophy has been used as main "state" philosophy during 2 millenaries
Kongzi is said to have edited Shijing (Book of Odes) and maybe other classical books
A stress should be done on music (and harmony), as Kongzi nearly always balances "rites" (li) with music or harmony, and, moreover, he liked to play music and to hear it. Music is, i think, related to the fact that it has the power to "unify the hearts of the men" (when rites divide them hierarchically)
The Way of (thinking of) Kongzi is "tautological" (the son be a son,...) and "indicial" (show one corner of a problem), not "polemic" or "dialectic" or "rational", and that is a key difference with Ancient Greek philosophers

Gbog 06:16, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Some of the stuff, like women, Zhu Xi and tautological, sounds more suitable in Confucianism. And I believe women is mentioned there already.

Ok -Gbog

But otherwise, be bold! --Menchi 06:35, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Yes but as I'm not a native english speaker, I'm afraid to give hudge work to readers :) Gbog

Replied on your talk page. --Menchi 07:22, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)

---

Removed this

Women

Confucius outlined a society based strongly upon hierarchy. To him, women were firmly at the bottom of that hierarchy. He intended virtually all of his philosophy and rigid ethical code to apply only to men.

His desire to civilize politics may explain this: In the time he lived, China was going through a chaotic period where the focus was often on war and other male-run concerns. This may partially explain his desire to focus on getting men to recognize strong obligations to each other - and to keep women out of politics. Such sentiments were also a part of the discourse taking place regarding democracy well into the 20th century - see suffragette.

because I think that what Confucius thought about women's place in society is only a side discussion about Confucius, as it's isn't stated directly anywhere. This could have a place in Confucianism. What could be stated here is the "five human relations" (King-Subject, Father-Son, Husband-Wife, Elder-Younger brother, Friends). gbog 16:50, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)