Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles

See also the old discussion of the name order in the article title.

Long vowels

Long vowels: I think the preferred practice at least according to people who teach Japanese to English-speaking students is to mark long vowels with a macron, or, if that is typographically impossible, with a circumflex. The practice I use when I am lazy is just type two vowels, like in kana. Maybe two vowels is the way to go, it makes searching easier. We already have such titles as shoujo. - user:tappel

I think the convention used on Everything2 has been found very workable in practice: no long vowels ever in article titles, and macrons used in the content itself. Kana spelling is very confusing for the uninitiated, and two vowels make searching more difficult (is the average tourist really going to Toukyou instead of Tokyo?) Jpatokal 03:19, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Since there have been no objections I've now added the above as policy. This is pretty much the Wikipedia de facto standard anyway, except a few oddballs like shoujo (cursed otaku). Jpatokal 06:31, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hiragana and katakana

Where are the hiragana (ひらがな) characters? These are used more than katakana (カタカナ), which are the only demonstrated set. Katakana is used to write foreign words, onomatopoeic words, or biological names, but for most else it's supposed to be hiragana. I have a chart of kana that I've placed somewhere. When I can dig it up, I'll put up a link to it, for anyone interested. - coldacid 20:00 -0500 2004-03-24

The characters themselves are in the charts for Hiragana and Katakana, and the romanization is given in the Hepburn charts. — Gdr 09:06 2004-04-01

Multiple romanizations?

This discussion was moved here from Wikipedia talk: naming conventions (Japanese) and elsewhere

For the page, I added that the Kunrei and Nippon-shiki of a word should be in parenthenses after the Hepburn word in the opening paragraph. WhisperToMe 05:13, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I think it is rather cluttering. Is it really imporant to show every possible spellings for each Japan-related article? I expect readers are more interested in the content than names. Besides, most people don't know well (including me) about a difference in romanization methods. I would say,

Anglicized name (kanji; romaji) is enough. Those ones like Hagi. -- Taku 05:19, Mar 29, 2004 (UTC)

I completely agree, it's cluttering. WhisperToMe, it looks like you're on a minor rampage in this area (for example, Chuo-ku), and while we appreciate your enthusiasm, it really isn't necessary. - - Paul Richter 04:53, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. It's best to stick to Hepburn because it gives the best indication of pronunciation to English speakers. People who care about the other kinds of rōmaji know enough to work it out for themselves. I removed some of the more annoying examples of multiple rōmaji and heavily edited Wikipedia:Manual of Style for Japan-related articles — Gdr 18:59, 2004-03-30

If you look at articles on Chinese names, E.G. Beijing, multiple romanizations exist, so they are all listed.

Although alternate Japanese romanizations are not as common, they are still there. Therefore, I changed the policy regarding Japanese naming conventions. WhisperToMe 23:26, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Chinese is a very different matter from Japanese. Wade-Giles romanizations were in use for a long time in English, for example Mao Tse-Tung. The change to pinyin was a newsworthy event; I still remember when the BBC switched over from Peking to Beijing. So it does make sense in Chinese articles to give multiple romanizations when both have been in common use in English.

But Japanese words have almost all been adopted into English with a single spelling (not usually based on any system). When there have been multiple spellings in common use then it makes sense to list them, for example Nippon, Nihon and Japan all deserve a mention, as do Tokio and Tokyo. But you never see Tookyoo, Toukyou, Tôkyô in English except in the context of Japanese textbooks. Gdr, 09:43 2004-04-01

I don't see what the problem is by including alternate romanizations in Japanese articles. WhisperToMe 23:56, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

What's the added value? Kunrei is almost never used by non-Japanese, and Nipponshiki is almost never used by anybody. 99.9% of the time Hepburn is sufficient to figure out the kana. IMHO it just adds clutter to the article. Jpatokal 00:42, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Just a reminder - its common practice to include alternate spellings of names, e.g. Kabul. Even if they are seldom used, they still should be used. It is not about figuring out the kana - It is about informing people on other ways names can be spelled. I would never have known that Huzi in Nippon-shiki is also Fuji in Hepburn.

Even then, Wikipedia would still sticking to Hepburn, as Hepburn names are ALWAYS used as title names, and throughout the body. However, the articles should still have information on what the names are under different romanization systems when they are different from the Hepburn. WhisperToMe 00:50, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

WTM, it's common practice to include common alternate spellings in English, and I think your example Kabul's "Käbool" is pretty borderline...

However, I note that according to your user bio you don't actually speak Japanese, and you've made several edits (notably the "Ousaka" case) that seem to back this up. How many people are there on this planet who recognize "Huzi" but not "Fuji"? Did you know that Nipponsiki has been obsolete since the 1800s? Jpatokal 01:27, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I concur with everyone else on this issue. Stop cramming articles with useless information. Anyone who calls Mount Fuji "Huzisan" is smoking some very potent ganja. Hepburn is more or less standard nowadays: we don't need to be including alternate romanizations unless they're very common. ("Oosaka" might be such a case. "Tookyoo" is definitely not.) -- Sekicho 01:36, Apr 1, 2004 (UTC)

Jpatokal, Nipponshiki was invented in the late 1800's, after Hepburn did. Instead of it being "outdated", it just didn't catch on.

For some reason, "Hukuoka" is used commonly on the internet. Hukuoka is JSL, Nippon-shiki, and Kunrei, as is "Huzi".

Fukuoka - 1,480,000 Hukuoka - 15,000

But as they aren't common, they should not be in the lead paragraph, and shouldn't be in every single article.

WhisperToMe 08:12, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Google counts:

fujisan 100,000+ huzisan 173

Osaka 440,000 Oosaka 30,000 Ousaka 4,500 Ôsaka 3,900 &#332saka 494

Tokyo 15,600,000 Tôkyô 15,800 Toukyou 13,300 Tōkyō 1,970 Tookyoo 786.

Who is the readership and how is are multiple romanizations useful to them? The readership of en.wikipedia.org is primarily English speakers who neither know nor care about the different systems of Japanese romanization. The point of giving rōmaji is to indicate the Japanese pronunciation when it isn't obvious from the English spelling. — Gdr 09:17 2004-04-01

I supposedly know Japanese, having a degree in it (don't ask me to translate anything, I'm out of practice), and I would agree that we don't need every single possible transliteration. Only the most common ones should be included. Fujisan, yes. Huzisan, no. I have never, ever seen this, not in any textbook I used, nor ever spoken in class. I don't even see why "Tookyoo" should be included; yes, it is an accurate transliteration, but it's simply not used much. However, I CAN see a better case for Tookyoo than for Huzisan. Same deal for "Hirosima" - Unnecessary. Yes, I know some romanizations use "si" instead of "shi" and I hate them. ;) Interesting, most of the google results I see for Hirosima are foreign language, and thus, not relevant for the English language wikipedia. --Golbez 08:21, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Golbez, Kunrei is used in Japanese textbooks. But since you never saw it in a textbook, you must not be from Japan. WhisperToMe 08:31, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I have an entire stack of Japanese high school textbooks on my bookshelf. I have never seen a single Kunrei romanization in any of them. In fact, during the entire time I lived in Japan, I only recall seeing Kunrei once or twice. 99 percent of romanized Japanese is Hepburn, and most of the remainder is used in a non-English context. I'm sure that anyone else who has actually lived in Japan can corroborate this claim. WhisperToMe, stop acting like an expert in this field. You aren't and it's beginning to show. -- Sekicho 14:23, Apr 3, 2004 (UTC)

The article Kunrei-shiki says... "It is the system officially sanctioned by the Japanese ministry of education, although it is much less widespread in use than Hepburn romanization, and is mostly used within Japanese schools."

So... what happened? WhisperToMe 05:10, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

No, I'm not. Are you? And is that relevant? Now, I don't mind you wasting your time making countless redirects, apart from it cluttering up "recent changes", or even wasting your time adding alternate romanizations to every single Japanese page. Your time, not mine. I'm just offering my two cents in saying that I think a good portion of these changes are, in fact, a waste of time. But, again, your time, and it's not like the namespace will ever be needed for "Tyuuoo-ku, Tookyoo" will be used for anything but this redirect. However, I must challenge the wisdom of one minor page needing... eleven redirects, most of them not major spellings. --Golbez 08:36, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm an American. Believe me, Golbez, I redirect uncommon/various spellings all the time. Just look at Umm al-Qaiwain and Qin Shi Huangdi. WhisperToMe 08:39, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm American too. That's a lot of redirects. Your time, not mine, and perhaps the redirects are necessary. But, when you start putting the stuff into the actual articles, then it gets a little iffy. Why don't you list all the possible transliterations of Umm al-Qaiwain on its page, like you do for Osaka? --Golbez 08:44, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I might get to that sometime. It was done for Muammar al-Qaddafi. WhisperToMe 08:47, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I think putting multiple romanizations on articles is needless. And I don't see why WhisperToMe do. As a native Japanese speaker, I don't know what kind of info English speakers want. I care a bit the fact that romanized forms don't distinguish おお from おう so that one cannot technically reconstruct original Japanese spellings from them. But apparently, WhisperToMe doesn't care about it.

Kunreishiki and Nihonshiki are rarely used. And I think they are the systems to romanize Japanese as Japanese whereas Hepburn romanizes Japanese words as part of English. They are needless for English Wikipedia, and I think putting Hiragana or Katakana would be better than putting them although I don't support eigher. --Nanshu 04:05, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I've seen both used occasionally on Wikipedia. See: Sin-Itiro_Tomonaga, Shin Takahashi and http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Chiba_prefecture&diff=766352&oldid=766351 - There is "kisaradu" (Kisarazu in Hepburn) in there, which may have been a mistake. - As for the previous two, if you want proof that I did not originally add the Kunrei, check the edit histories.
There was even a guest who wanted Hepburn completely thrown out (Talk:Romaji) - But I don't agree with that. :) WhisperToMe 05:07, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Sin-Itiro's a weird case, but that's how he spells his own name so we can't really argue with that. Shin Takahashi, on the other hand, looks like Hepburn to me? At any rate, your redirects are pointless, but they at least they don't get in the way of the content. Messes like this, on the other hand, do:

Shintaro Abe (Hepburn) (Or Abe Shintarō, as per Japanese naming order, Japanese: 安部 晋太郎, April 29, 1924 - May 15, 1991) was a Japanese politician. His name is sometimes romanized as Abe Sintarô (Nippon-shiki/Kunrei) or as Abe Sintaroo (JSL).

This is ridiculous! Two words of content ("Japanese politician") and twenty-five about naming! I've reverted this back to:

Shintaro Abe (安部 晋太郎 Abe Shintarō), April 29, 1924 - May 15, 1991) was a Japanese politician.

And, since WhisperToMe is obviously unwilling to listen to the majority opinion, I encourage all others to follow me in reverting leading paragraphs back into readability. Jpatokal 06:31, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm going to have to agree with this. A balance between content and description of the term must be made in these cases. The extra information should only be supplied as needed. It was not needed here.

I also have a related question: Yes, we have Chicago, Illinois and Los Angeles, California -- but do we really need Osaka, Osaka and Kyoto, Kyoto? London's main page does not say London, England, and for a non-capitol city, Munich does not say Munich, Bavaria. Osaka and Kyoto don't need disambiguation beyond city vs prefecture, and this is handled in the opening paragraphs. So why not make Osaka and Kyoto the main pages for these cities? --Golbez 06:50, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I've thought about this for awhile, and I've decided that perhaps I should only have the Hepburn and Kunrei listed.

Woohoo! Progress! Thank you for listening -- seriously. Jpatokal 12:54, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

But the whole "If you list them all in the title, it gets in the way of the content" concept is ridiculous. Look at the Chinese articles... Examples: Taipei, Hu Jintao, Mao Zedong WhisperToMe 12:31, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Chinese is a lot tougher than Japanese, because eg. in the case of Taipei, you have not only the "standard" pinyin/simplified characters, but also the Wade-Giles system and traditional charaters actually used on Taiwan, and the local Taiwanese dialect which is radically different from Mandarin -- and they manage to squeeze all this into 6 words anyway. Whereas in Japan you have one official type of kanji (Joyo), one popular romanization (Hepburn) and one official dialect (hyojungo) -- and you need 25 words! And while I was at it, I cleaned up Hu Jintao a little. =) Jpatokal 12:54, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Also, WhisperToMe, those are major pages, with many paragraphs of content. Also, there are only two naming systems mentioned, and both are "official". It's not an issue for a 2:25 ratio of content:naming information. Mao has to have multiple historical names because naming systems have changed since he became notable. Also, I'm not going to count words, but I'm pretty sure there's still a better ratio than 2:25. --Golbez 13:33, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Another wierd thing is that the Pinyin way to say Taipei (Taibei) is only used by the Communist party of China - Almost everyone everyone else uses the Wade-Giles way to say it. As for why I placed the alternates in a separate sentence instead of, say, in the 1st sentence, many here felt it was cluttering that way too.

I've thought of a little compromise. How about that I post the Kunrei-shiki/Monbusho/ISO 3602, but not the Nippon-shiki nor the JSL? WhisperToMe 13:02, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Can you give an example of a page using only this compromise? --Golbez 13:33, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Shin Takahashi. Or perhaps like this http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Shin_Takahashi&oldid=3117435. WhisperToMe 13:43, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

This is still pointless; do you realize that Google pulls up a grand total of five (5) cites for "syôzyo", out of which 2 are your own Wikipedia edit, 1 teaches Kunrei, and 1 is in Italian! But if you must, then at least call it Kunrei, not "ISO 3602". Some Japanese might actually recognize the word "Kunrei", while only the most hardcore pasty-faced geeks know ISO numbers by heart. (And me, I prefer 8859-15.) Jpatokal 16:14, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

And oh, WTM, you've actually been inputting wrong information in your articles: eg. "shōjo" is "syôzyo" in Nippon-siki, not "syôdyo" (しょうぢょ) as you claimed. But of course you can't tell the difference between じょ (jo/zyo/zyo) and ぢょ (jo/zyo/dyo)... Why, oh why, do you persist in this crusade when you don't even know the language in question? Jpatokal 16:28, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

If you are wondering, I got it from this: http://antares7.prettyodango.net/articles/romanization/

WhisperToMe 16:32, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Oh, and btw, most people don't bother typing circumflexes or macrons, so its a bit more fair to search for "Syozyo", which returns 115 google hits. This romanization is probably incorrect, but "Syouzyo" returns 262 hits. WhisperToMe 17:02, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Another egregious example:

Junichiro Koizumi (Hepburn) (Japanese: 小泉 純一郎, Kunrei-shiki: Zyun-itiro Koizumi) (born January 8, 1942) is a Japanese politician and the current Prime Minister. The alternative Hepburn spellings include Zyunichiro Koizumi, Jun'ichiro Koizumi, and other notations with reversed order.

The only Google hits for "Zyun-itiro Koizumi" or "Zyunichiro Koizumi" were copies of this page. Gdr 09:13, 2004 Apr 13 (UTC)

I just want to voice my opinion. I think in general any romanization information about the title of the article is irrelevant except some exceptions such as two romanized names are equaly used or traditional names are common but is not in line with the modern system. An example is Taoism and Daoism. The article needs to address both names in this case.

But aside from those particular cases, I don't see how relevant mentioning different romanized names. I believe if you see one name like Jyunichiro Koizumi, then you can figure out a different romanized name. It seems few Japanese have enough knowledge about the different across romanization schemes and they don't care which system they are using, except legal stuff like passports. This is like initiating an article in the way: internationalization (internationalisation) is bahabah. Everyone knows two spells are the same.

-- Taku 15:17, Apr 13, 2004 (UTC)

Sometimes, people can get confused by alternate spellings. Some of my classmates didn't know that "Akhilleus" was an alt. spelling of Achilles. Therefore, they got confused when they read the Robert Fitzgerald version of "The Odyssey".

Anyways, yes, Junichiro Koizumi seems to be almost exclusively spelled in his Hepburn form on the net. Yet Kunrei is used somewhat for other stuff:

• Hanafuda: 8140
• Hanahuda: 238

• Inuyasha: 1,020,000
• Inuyasya: 5,160
• "Inu Yasha": 320,000
• "Inu Yasya": 101

• Fukuoka: 1,520,000
• Hukuoka: 15,100

WhisperToMe - too lazy to sign in... 19:21, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, so this is why I said there are some exceptions. But obviously this doesn't mean every article needs to mention different romanized names. There is actually no issue. If people use different spellings, then it is necessary to list them all. Also, I think Fukuoka and Hukuoka are the same thing as -zation and -sation, not need to list both two. Can we agree now? -- Taku 19:53, Apr 13, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with you. WhisperToMe 22:17, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Maybe I should have clarified my opinion. I think that tons of redirects are enough and that tiresome info on each article is needless. And I think that romanization variants mainly come from Japanese ignorance on romanization. For Japanese, romanized names are "ad hoc" ones. They are not "right" names because the Latin alphabet is not the official writting system for Japanese. --Nanshu 02:49, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

By the way, look at the Esperanto article of Junichiro Koizumi. WhisperToMe 04:09, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

And this is relevant to the English Wikipedia how? Also, "I know my edits make articles butt-ugly and confusing, but lookie lookie, this paragraph written by somebody else is butt-ugly and confusing too" really isn't the best tactic to convince us why you need to stick Kunrei in every single article. Especially when in this case the para in question is a word-for-word translation of your own edits! Jpatokal 05:52, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Again, sometimes Kunrei-shiki is used in the English language. And sometimes, those alternate spellings can confuse the hell out of people. However low sometimes is, sometimes can be enough. Can't we go by what Taku said above? WhisperToMe 23:21, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I have no idea which romanization is popular or not. I doubt there is even one which is considered a standard. Perhaps Nanshu is right; Japanese is not completely aware of rigid romanization systems after all. A particularly problem is commerce. Some companies use non-standard romanized product names for the sake of sounds or whatever reasons. Again, actually this is not an issue unique to Japanese articles. As always the case is in wikipedia, if there are alternative spellings, then the article needs to mention them somehow. I believe some old text book of Japanese history has a mention of a name Ota Nobunaga. Obviously, it is referring to Oda Nobunaga. But the simple fact some people use that spelling so the article should mention it somehow. The article title must be one that is popular or official, but it doesn't necessarily mean less popular names need to be neglected.

To clarify my opinion, on the other hand, there is no need to list spellings that are very similar and can be deducded from one another, just as it is unnecessary every time you say internationalization is spelling also as internationalisation.

I am still confused what is an issue really?

-- Taku 00:19, Apr 15, 2004 (UTC)

Links to Hepburn and Japanese

Is it really necessary to have a link to Hepburn from every page that uses this style of romanization? It is necessary to have a link to Japanese next to every word written in Japanese? For example, is this:

In Japanese, rōmaji (Hepburn) (Japanese: ローマ字 "Roman characters") broadly refers to the Roman alphabet.

really better than this?

In Japanese, rōmaji (ローマ字 "Roman characters") broadly refers to the Roman alphabet.

The former seems to have a lot of unnecessary duplication. It would be nice if we could agree a consensus here. Gdr 15:35, 2004 Apr 3 (UTC)

It's been driving me mad that some user keeps placing a link to Japanese language in front of every word given in Japanese in articles on Japanese things. It's so unnecessary! It's obvious, for example, in the article on Osaka, a Japanese city, that 大阪 is Japanese for Osaka! Exploding Boy 08:13, May 11, 2004 (UTC)

"Some user" is WhisperToMe (see discussion above). It doesn't look as though he has any support, so I think you can safely take out his redundant "Japanese:" whenever it annoys you. Gdr 10:39, 2004 May 11 (UTC)

Yosh. Exploding Boy 11:14, May 11, 2004 (UTC)

Syllabic n

I have a problem with point 3 in the Romanization section:

"Syllabic n ン followed by b, m; or p is written m."

This is not only not standard practice, it's also confusing and misleading. The syllable "n" exists in Japanese; there's no reason to transcribe it as "m". Exploding Boy 01:59, Apr 1, 2004 (UTC)

Also, what has happened to "Naming conventions Japanese"? The link just redirects to this page and there's nothing on it here. As far as I recall no consensus was ever reached on the issue either. Exploding Boy 02:01, Apr 1, 2004 (UTC)

I rescued the material about given name/family name ordering and put it on this page. The only other material was about names of Emperors, about which I know nothing, so that's still waiting for a knowledgeable person to add it. Gdr 15:35, 2004 Apr 3 (UTC)

It's still there if you look at the page history. I added a link at the top of this page. -- Taku 02:08, Apr 1, 2004 (UTC)

The 'm' romanization is not standard, but it's in widespread use.

Here's what Google returns:

Edogawa Ranpo:748 vs. Edogawa Rampo: 1630

Shinbashi: 17000 vs. Shimbashi 14600

Jinbocho 2420 vs. Jimbocho 3170

... and most importantly,

Monbusho 21,600 vs. Mombusho 1900

And JR uses it: Shimbashi, Nihombashi, etc. - - Paul Richter 02:31, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Actually using "m" is a part of standard Hepburn romanization, and the reason for using it is simply that 新聞 is pronounced "shimbun". However, revised Hepburn (adopted by the Library of Congress among others) uses "n" in all cases.

Personally, I lean towards the revised style, but there are some words where "m" is pretty well entrenched or used in the official romanization, eg. Asahi Shimbun, Namba Station. Jpatokal 03:53, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm neutral about this; m gives the best indication of pronunciation but n isn't so bad.— Gdr 09:21 2004-04-01

Maybe the right thing to do is to leave this open, with a recommendation to use whatever is most common in use. Gdr 15:50, 2004 Apr 2 (UTC)

Howzabout we agree on n for new/obscure/equally popular words, but allow m for entrenched usage? Jpatokal 15:17, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

There were no loud objections, so now it's policy. Jpatokal 04:20, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The new policy seems good to me. I shall undo my Monbushō → Mombushō change. Gdr 09:13, 2004 Apr 13 (UTC)

Particles

Revth, you edited Japanese grammar changing e to he and o to wo. But Wikipedia:Manual of Style for Japan-related articles says to use e and o. Can we come to an agreement? Gdr 15:50, 2004 Apr 2 (UTC)

There was no answer, so I reverted the changes. Gdr 08:49, 2004 Apr 13 (UTC)

Double n

Although rule 4 indirectly addresses this, what's the standard for a doubled n? Should "emperor" be tennō or ten'nō? We seem to be using the former, and I prefer that because there's not really an ambiguity that would require an apostrophe, but computer dictionaries seem to only like the apostrophe version and I do see it in stuff by Viz, so it should probably be mentioned. DopefishJustin 15:46, May 10, 2004 (UTC)

Definitely tennō, writing "ten'nō" is hypercorrect and pointless. I'm also not sure what computer dictionary you're using, as all Linux IMEs that I know of are quite happy without the spurious apostrophe... Jpatokal 16:32, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

I haven't tried entering Japanese on Linux. If you enter tennou in Microsoft's IME, you get *てんおう (it considers the double n to be the single character ん), so to get てんのう you need to enter ten'nou or tennnou. In the JquickTrans dictionary (which I usually use), entering tennou gets you *てっのう, the apostrophe again being necessary. I guess you can explain these away as dumb programming, but why Viz renders 亀仙人 as Kamesen'nin is beyond me. DopefishJustin 19:20, May 13, 2004 (UTC)

How IME's handle input is not really relevant. What matters is the published form and, as you said, it isn't ambiguous in this case. The basic rule is to use n' when it is ambiguous (i.e. when the n is followed by a vowel or y). Say we have a name like "Sanin". We can't tell if it is Sa-n-i-n (San'in') or Sa-ni-n (Sanin) unless we have some way to distinguish n from ni. Or kani vs kan'i etc. Viz is just unnecessarily applying this rule. Mdchachi|Talk 16:19, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

Image captions

It doesn't seem to be possible to use Unicode characters in captions for images, so should long vowels just be unmarked? DopefishJustin 15:46, May 10, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, it's the lesser of two evils. Jpatokal 16:32, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

Speaking of Whisper to me

(see also above) This user is going around modifiying all sorts of Japan(ese) pages with a bunch of frankly useless information and horrid looking links. S/He's also created a mass of redirect pages using every possible romanization and misspelling for even things that have long-agreed-upon spellings in English. What's the deal and how can we stop it? Exploding Boy 02:52, May 19, 2004 (UTC)

See above. There has already been some dicussion about it. And frankly, the redirects are okay. WhisperToMe 03:08, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

I think it's time for us to settle on some standard regarding the very first sentence of the article. Personally, I really don't care if the article has things like jp links or kanji linked to kanji article. But appararently, we have conflicts so why don't we have some time to have consensus. Because this issue is about a style not the content of the article, the agreement, once we reached, is absolute and all we need.

Since I believe a sytle is something of personal preference, I listed some possiblities below. Please state which one you prefer or say your thoughts. I don't think the voting is needed right now. Also, please don't be too picky about details like whether to capitalize English phrases of literal meaning.

(I am very tired today so if my English is broken or my thoughs don't make sense or whatever, I'm sorry.)

-- Taku 09:09, May 19, 2004 (UTC)

If you don't see one you like, just add it

Regarding the content of the parenthesis

• Ōsaka (大阪市 -shi; lit. big slope)
• Ōsaka (大阪市 Osaka-shi; lit. big slope)

Regarding links to Japanese language

• Ōsaka (大阪市 -shi; lit. big slope)

Regarding romanization information

• Ōsaka (大阪市 Oosaka in Nippon-shiki)

We already have a style; see sections 2, 3, and 4 of the Wikipedia:Manual of Style for Japan-related articles. That makes it clear that when the Japanese pronunciation is significantly different from the English, then the article should start:

English (kanji rōmaji) …

so in this case I think it would start

Osaka (大阪市 Ōsaka-shi) …

I don't see anything wrong with adding the literal meaning. Gdr 09:26, 2004 May 19 (UTC)