Talk:Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II

Shots in slightly different angle.

X35

X35

X35

File:X35STOVL4.JPG

X35

X35

awesome. Looks like the new Udvar-Hazy (damn the spelling) addition. I'm dying to spend a few days there sometime. mnemonic 08:28, 2004 Jul 5 (UTC)

WikiProject Aircraft

shouldn't this article conform to Wikipedia:WikiProject Aircraft? mnemonic 08:25, 2004 Jul 5 (UTC)

Yak-41

I removed this section until it can be substantiated:

The JSF (F-35) design is based on the soviet Yakovlev-41 supersonic, VTOL naval fighter-bomber plane. The blueprints were sold by the cash-strapped Yakovlev bureau in the early 90's. The USA refined the plans previously made by Yakovlev for a land-based STOL variant dubbed Yak-141 into the F-35. The soviet's two small vertical lift jet engines were thrown out, while Rolls-Royce developed a new powerplant, based on the soviet swiveling-tailpipe design, which could also spin a large, horizontal central fan for cold lift thrust. Other than that, the Yak-141 shape changed relatively little, mostly to boost stealth capabilities and incorporate hidden weapons bays. Internally a lot has been changed, but structurally and with regards to electronics, the plane was essentially redesigned. -Joseph (Talk) 19:53, 2004 Sep 27 (UTC)

The above indeed is inaccurate. It should say that Yak-141 inspired the F-35, since they are two completely different aircrafts. I found something on the JSF official website:

The exhaust from the engine flows through the 3 Bearing Swivel Nozzle (3BSN). The 3BSN nozzle, developed by Rolls-Royce, was patterned along the lines of the exhaust system on the Yakovlev Yak-141 STOVL prototype that flew at the 1992 Farnborough air show. A US Navy program also developed swivel nozzles in the late 1960's and was proposed for a supersonic STOVL design by Convair (one of the Lockheed Martin heritage companies) in the early 1970's. (JSF Concept) Jigen III

Thanks for removing that fanboy tripe about the F-35 being based on the Yak-141. Lockheed purchased Yakovlev's lift fan performance data and nothing more.

Australian JSF vs. F/A-22

I reverted the commentary on American unwillingness to sell the F/A-22 to Australia because it doesn't fit with reports on the issue. In Houston's speech justifying the JSF purchase, nowhere does he say that the US wouldn't sell Raptors to us if we were prepared to fork out the cash. Greg Sheridan has also said in The Australian (can't stand the bloke, but he seems to be reasonably well-briefed on such things) that the US Government has said we can have Raptors if we are prepared to fork out for them. Historically, the Americans have been perfectly willing to sell their hot hardware to us.

So why would they not be prepared to sell us the Raptor but not the full-whack JSF? The argument is somewhat more subtle than what appeared in the previous edit. The JSF is going to be fairly widely exported, to countries that are less trusted than Australia to not pass the technology on to competitors with their own aircraft industry. However, it will be rather politically difficult for the US to allow some partners in the project better aircraft than others (to pick a not-so-random example, Turkey might not be happy if Australia was getting the fully-fledged JSF but they weren't). With the Raptor, nobody else is asking for them (amongst other reasons, nobody else can afford the damn things) so the US wouldn't be offending anybody by selling them to Australia. --Robert Merkel 04:53, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

The official F-22 site (www.f22-raptor.com) once stated that the aircraft would not be available for international export. Also, many have placed Israel at the top of the list of potential foreign customers (considering its past purchases of F-15s, F-16s and its high GDP percentage spent on defense).

the "analysis" section

is POV and original research. It does not belong in any encyclopedia. It's good, but not encyclopedic information.

--Yes, especially the ALIS section needs editing. It has ridiculously POV and incoherent information.

I rode in the F-35, it was fun.

history

The History in this article... isn't. There is no mention of the JAST program that lead to the JSF.

sugarfish 00:15, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

You seem well informed. I suggest you edit the article -- Cabalamat 01:26, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Done. sugarfish 04:13, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

SEAD

Will it be capable of SEAD missions? Jigen III 08:56, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

It had better be; most of the foriegn partners won't have anything else to do the job (nor will the UK when they're operating off their carriers... --Robert Merkel 09:11, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

International partners

Nowhere in any official documentation is the United States referred to as a "Level I" participant and the other countries as levels II through IV. Always they are referred to as international partners with the UK as the sole level I partner and the others at levels II and III. While it's not strictly inacurate to place the US at the top and renumber the rest down one, this is not the way it is referred to by international governments or even in US government documents. I have therefore changed this section to reflect the official nomenclature.

F/A-35

Shouldn't they designate it F/A rather than just F? It'll do ground attacks like the F/A-22 and F/A-18. And the USMC version will be in the close air support role, so an A will make sense.

Reply: Most fighter jets also handle attack missions. The F-16 is more commonly used in an attack role than in air-to-air combat. The F117 and F111 are both exclusively for attack and bombing missions. The 'A' designation is more used as a promo gimmick than as a real differentiation between roles. All jets are multirole now - that's just assumed.

They should make designations more consistant. Marketing has too much precedence over practicality.

Not all jets are multirole now, an example is the F-15C, in the U.S. it is not capable of ground attack, however, the IAF has used it to drop dumb bombs. And the F-117 is not capable of A2A combat. So it is still a designation that is used, they recently changed the F-22 to the F/A-22 for this reason. The F-16 was originally designed as a short-range dogfighter without A2G capabilites, that was later in its life that it was used for that, which is why it is only the F-16 and not the F/A-16.

In a military situation, uprated attack aircraft are as a general rule far more useful than better A2A fighters, as military use of A2A combat is usually restricted to those countries who have an air force good enough to shoot down a purely attack squad without suffering huge losses of efficiency (for example, chasing a supercruising plane with a subsonic model is not going to be strategically sound.) On another note, if I recall correctly from the F117A Stealth Fighter article, the F- designation on that model has never been explained, although some theroies have been proposed to deal with this quandary. As this plane can only carry a total armament of 2 missiles, it is not suited to A2A combat as this greatly increases radar signature, and additionally defeats its original purpose, which is effective air to ground attack.

Does anyone know how the A-10 will be replaced?

--The1exile 01:52, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

The Royal Navy and the Carrier Variant

Is the Royal Navy still considering ordering the C variant as is stated in the introduction? It was my belief that the Royal Navy had definitely chosen the STOVL (B variant) JSF for the CVF carriers since they did not require expensive catapults to be added to the ships. Nick Worth 23:01, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Variant Conversion?

With 80% commonality, would it be possible to, say, convert an A-variant to a B- or C-variant? Jigen III 13:43, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Featured Article Candidate

I have suggested that this article become a featured article, and some people have suggested changes to improve quality. I am implementing these changes; if you can help out or lend your support to the proposition to make it a featured article then please do so: I can use all the help I can get. --The1exile 12:34, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Non-vehicle differentiator?

This section contains a lot of techno-babble. I am not an engineer, but it makes absolutely no sense. I presume it was copied from a press-release. Before even considering this as a featured article, can an expert in this field clear up what is meant by that in plain english? It seems to have something to do with keeping maintenance down by using mass-produced components..

Error in engine thrust figures

The article refers to two engine types, a standard and a "High Performance", but the lbf given for the high-spec engine is less than standard, but the SI units show a higher thrust.

1. Primary: 1x Pratt & Whitney F135 afterburning turbofan 43,000 lbf (165 kN) thrust
2. Secondary (High Performance): 1x General Electric/Rolls-Royce F136 afterburning turbofan 40,000 lbf (178 kN) thrust

Fixed the lbf; they are obsolete and inaccurate, I did some rough calculations and found the High Performance to come to over 700,000 lbf. It is quite possible my calculations are inaccurate, but the lbf measurements are gone now. I also fixed some text layout, but I could still use some help. --The1exile 20:16, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I think where the lbf measurements came from were different sources. From the Pratt & Whitney F135 article I can already see that the stats come to 178 kN for the engine, while the High Performance engine, the General Electric/Rolls-Royce F136 is also 178 kN for the entire system. There is a minor change in lbf, but I am not sure these are accurate; I dont know why the secondary engine is labelled High Performance anyway, if I can't find credible sources then I will remove this. --The1exile 13:42, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

FAC failure, any ideas to improve it?

The FAC has failed, in spite of everything that was pointed out as a problem being fixed. I will still attempt to improve this article, any ideas on how to? --The1exile 16:14, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

You could include inline ciations, I suppose. Also, some of the pictures do not have sources, which is a breeding ground for objections. I wish I had seen this on the FAC page, I would have voted for it. Sorry. TomStar81 23:15, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I thought the writing was very good, enjoyable to read. Some ideas:

• The format/layout/arrangement was a little confusing to me at first, I see some of it came from Wikipedia:WikiProject Aircraft/page content. Maybe could use a little polishing, especially near the end, and tweaked to fit the subject. I'll try to work on the reference section.
• Statements like this need references: Reportedly, export versions for some countries other than the UK may be subject to some restrictions and carry different mission systems. What equipment would be changed, and the difference in capabilities is not known.
• There were a bunch of spelling errors (according to SpellBound) and a mixture of American and British English (I fixed some of this).
• OK, the end formatting could look more like Convair B-36 which is a featured article.
• Could use a media section, there is probably some good PD video from the mil sites. Sullevon 00:00, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I will see if I can fix these problems then. Citation, sourcing and references can be done, and spelling can probably be fixed (when both British and American editors contribute this is a common problem). However, videos I cannot help with, I can't get this PC to access them. --The1exile 12:07, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

• I think the spelling needs to be standardized on American English, since its mostly an American topic. Not sure about this though.
• I've found some video but need to convert it to the Ogg format. Anyone know how to do this? --Sullevon 23:12, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
• Suggestion: rewrite the Design section and move up to after program history. Currently has good info on different manufacturers. Should be some writing on the planes unique design in the design section, along with some more images. --Sullevon 00:09, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Sullevon, thanks for the suggestions, and I can't help you with video conversions. But moving the design section is a problem, as then it is not in accordance with WP:AIR, and that was a problem when I voted this article for FA status (see the subpage). And if you want to change the spelling to merican English, then do so, but I use and contribute in British English and have dictionaries for British English, not American English. --The1exile 16:18, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that, I've moved the design section back to where it started. --Sullevon 17:02, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I've added a media section with video, if anyone else has video they want converted, let me know. Sullevon 17:48, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

GA Status

This article is by far Good Article status. I think that the format may need a few tweaks (see above), and some more citations. Deckiller 23:50, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

International participation POV

This entire section paints a gloomy picture of dissatisfied partners with the US. For example,

The CEO of BAE Systems, the British contractor on the plane, has complained that the US has not given the UK (and his company) access to the crucial source code of the plane's software, thus making it impossible for the UK to maintain and modify the JSF independently.

This statement needs context. Did the UK and BAE secure access for the source code prior to entering the project? Or are they just whining after the fact and trying to change the terms they already agreed to? Full picture needed.

Likewise, other partners complaining that they aren't getting enough manufacturing work from the project; what was their agreed share? Does their (lack of) technically capability have anything to do with bid awards?--Sullevon 18:17, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, I added a reference and a paragraph. Apparently the UK wants the US congress to grant a waiver for technology transfer to the UK, yet the UK won't tighten up their own laws on transferring that technology to third countries, among other concerns.

Also, The last paragraph regarding various countries unhappy with the bid awards; should include statements by countries, like Turkey, that have indicated their happiness with the awards so far. (I'll try to find a reference for this)--Sullevon 19:12, 31 January 2006 (UTC)