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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by The Infidel (talk | contribs) at 20:42, 2 February 2006 (→More on move to "infidel"). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Noble Quran and transgressors

I would like to clarify something and like to quote the Noble Quran about war and stuff.

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2:190)"

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (The Noble Quran, 8:61)"

"God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (The Noble Quran, 60:8)"

"Say: 'Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (The Noble Quran, 24:54)"

I see a lot of anti-islamic sites and it says that islam is a religion to disrespect the disbeleivers. look at this site by the way http://www.themodernreligion.com/ugly/kafr.html, article on be careful of who you call a kafir.

al-salam alaikom (peace upon you),this is what islam is all about "peace". i want to explain a few things about the expression "kafir", at first kafir doesn't have any relation with afrikans and it was not used by arabs to describe other people on ethnic bases. in islam the word - kafir - refers to those who believe in gods other than one creative GOD and didn't believe in GOD (ALLAH, in arabic) as the only creator of every creatures.

well, that's just what we say in the article (the afrikaans is just a link to another word, for people who are looking for the kaffir article.) dab (ᛏ) 11:08, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)


Added section Kafir hatred

As per user Heraclius request, I included a source but that is not all I would like to point out to him that the neologism kaafirphobia gets 21 hits in a search using Google. Colin chee 18:48, 16 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is just a note that SOMEONE has been asking people from mychristiannetwork.com to keep the kafirphobia information. This is complete B.S., and whomever decided to lobby thir biased friends to do this needs to reflect on their behavior.--Dr.Worm 20:05, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted. Spurious details with spurious source. Source written by you on a geocities site doesn't count as a credible source. __earth 09:40, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks Earth. The section was a separate article before and it was deleted, but then it was reproduced here. I tried to delete it but a team of wikistalkers made sure I didn't get my "way". If you could please keep an eye on this article, it would be much appreciated.Heraclius 15:13, 21 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. Glad to know I'm not the only one who thinks the idea is specious. And I will keep an eye on this page if and only if you keep an eye too =p. __earth 18:37, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
How can you call it spurious when there are numerous results on Kaafirphobia when using Google search facility? This can be considered vandalism, so I have reverted back your changes to the last version by Heraclius. Please do not remove the information on Kaafirphobia as it is not spurious and in fact accurately describes hatred towards Kaafirs (or non-Muslims) by Muslims. Thank you. Garywbush 05:45, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
4 or 5 results from Google are hardly numerous. As of posting, there are 31 results from Google but most of them quote wikipedia and the others come from blogs' comment section of which, posted by Colin Chee like at http://rajanr.com/2005/08/11/invade-sumatra/#comment-1783.
Moreover, you claim to be a political analyst. Surely you can see that the source is not credible. Just take a look at the source and take a look at its root directory. Anyway real academician would publish their thesis properly instead of some obscure site on the internet.
Moreover, the two "sociologists" doesn't seem to be real because USM doesn't offer a doctorate in "Anthropology and Sociology" as claimed by user User:Colin_chee, which incidently is being quoted as reference. And, it has been voted upon for deletion at Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Kaafirphobia. Please adhere to the process. __earth 08:34, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
You are generalising again, __earth as Colin and Danian are two distinct persons. I cannot speak for Colin or Danian but AFAIK, Danian obtained his doctorate in sociology from a Russian university, while Colin from a Canadian university. At his User Page, Colin himself says he was an ex-lecturer at USM who resigned months ago. BTW, what has the Vfd got to do with this? In fact the Vfd was for the seperate article called Kaafirphobia and not this article, Kaafir. Also, Dbachmann himself pointed out that including something in Wikipedia is about notability and not OR. Since, it does generate hits in Google why can't we list it but I suggest we remove the reference to the two sociologists? Alibadawi 02:00, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Alibadawi, before Colin Chee changed his user page (checked the history), he said he received his PhD from USM. After somebody actually took the initiative to verify his claim, he switches it to Canada. Why would he changed it? __earth 12:12, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

ok, I agree that this is a borderline case of notability. Note, however, that we are talking of notability, not OR. Wikipedia covers a lot of obscure internet phenomena, and while I would be opposed to an entire "Kaafirophobia" article, on grounds on notability, a brief mention here, imho, does not hurt, as long as the term is put in proper perspectice. I am an "inclusionist qua redirection" I suppose. Not that I'd edit-war over something like this, but I really don't see why the term needs to be suppressed, seeing that this article is still very short and badly in need of more material. That's just my opinion, of course, and I'll gracefully yield to community consensus :) dab (ᛏ) 09:16, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it is borderline case of notability no doubt but as you say, Dbachmann, Wikipedia also covers a lot of obscure internet phenomena, for instance Mark Rosenfelder's Language Construction Kit. In this case, we should include "Kaafirphobia" section in the Kaafir article but remove the reference to the two sociologists. Alibadawi 02:00, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Alright then, but could we just remove the reference to the two sociologists? I'm convinced they are fake since the university's dean itself, according to a blog, doesn't recognize them. __earth 09:20, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
I support including the Kaafirphobia section as it has some notability. However, we should remove the reference to the two sociologists like you say due to lack of information about them. On whether those two sociologists are fake, I cannot tell, as the web site you quote is not operated by the Dean or USM but by some third party. Alibadawi 02:00, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I see, sorry, I didn't realize we have Colin chee (talk · contribs) adding his own neologism, and playing games on geocities and blogs; I suppose he'll have to provide better references then, like mention of the term on the "Social Centre on Racism and Xenophobia" website, which have adopted the term according to his claim. dab (ᛏ) 09:26, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The whole term doesn't make sense to me. If the term is used to describe the feelings of Islamists toward non-Muslims, then "phobia" is not the correct suffix. I really don't think killing people and blowing yourself up means you're "afraid" of them. If the term is used to describe general Muslim feelings toward non-Muslims, then it's false, as Kafir only means one who is not of the "people of the book". Either way, the term is covered by anti-semitism and Christophobia.Heraclius 16:50, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
the term as such is okay; after all, Islamophobes dream of nuking Mecca; why shouldn't Kafirophobes dream of nuking Kafirs. The point is that the term is spurious, and WP is not to help in its coining. Also, Salibophobe may be the better term, since "Kafirophobes" mostly concentrate on Christians (who are, per definition, not actual Kafirs). dab (ᛏ) 20:45, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
That could be said even of the term Islamophobia for eventhough it has the suffix "phobia". However, Islamophobia does not only mean fear of Muslims but includes hatred of Muslims so the term Kaafirphobia is appropriate. The only problem is the references to the two sociologists as __earth says, which I too feel should be removed. Otherwise, the article is alright. I shall begin editing it. Alibadawi 02:00, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Alibadawi, you are quoting nationmaster (which is a mirror of Wikipedia) and Colin Chee's company page as sources. And to mention it again, even Google search doesn't give anything credible academic source. __earth 04:46, August 24, 2005 (UTC)

But even, Mark Rosenfelder's Language Construction Kit is not a credible academic source and it is in Wikipedia. See, Dbachmann's post to you and you yourself agreed the term could be included if the two "sociologists" are removed. I am willing to comply with your demands, Earth for the sake of consensus to retain this article. Alibadawi
note that User:Colin chee was the one that added this. And note the source reference is related to User:Colin chee. And observe Wikipedia:NOR. And the sources, you are essentially committing circular reasoning because you are quoting a mirror of Wikipedia to justify that source. See why it's not credible? __earth 05:04, August 24, 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps you misunderstand :) Yes, I do observe Wikipedia:NOR that forbids original research. However, Colin Chee did not use Wikipedia for his original research and used Geocities, and moreover, Google gives various results for a search on kaafirphobia. This includes nationmaster, which continues to retain the article kaafirphobia. Also, I am surprised you are desperate on insisting it be removed? Why? Alibadawi 05:25, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Because the term violates Wikipedia's policy. And nationmaster is a MIRROR of Wikipedia. Quoting nationmaster to justify its inclusion in Wikipedia is a logical fallacy (circular reasoning). And yes, he used geocities but do the two sociologists are really sociologist despite the fact the one of the sociologist claim to earn a Phd from a school that doesn't offer such PhD? And don't you find it spurious that geocities page has just put up just to justify this wikipedia's subsection? Plus, previously there was danian cheong here. It was Dr Colin Chee AND Danian Cheong. Now, its just Dr Colin Chee. Don't you find that odd? And is there is a such thing as part-time sociologist? Any college graduate can recognize this is a prank at best, lies at its worst.__earth 05:39, August 24, 2005 (UTC)
Earth is correct. Wikipedia mirrors are not valid sources, nor are Geocities sites generally reliable sources. Shem(talk) 05:42, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Shem Daimwood, if you look at Nationmaster entry on Kaafirphobia it is totally different from wikipedia entry, Kaafir so I would say it is not a mirror. Therefore, it can be considered a valid source. I respect your POV but it is still POV. What we need is NPOV and nationmaster and geocities and minishort.net illustrate this term. Alibadawi 05:55, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
That version was deleted by consensus at Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Kaafirphobia. Nationmaster will delete their version when they update their database. After all, nationmasters is a mirror. And please, why are you using minishort.net, which is a casual blog, to support your POV? Even at minishort, the term came out AT THE COMMENT SECTION. __earth 06:05, August 24, 2005 (UTC)

it's very simple: a geocities page is not a reference. their definition is simpl parroting the Runnymede Trust definition of Islamophobia. If the term gains some currency in the media, we can point to the geocities page as an early source. As long as Colin Chee is the only one touting the term, it has no place on Wikipedia. dab (ᛏ) 10:03, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What you say is true since the Geocities web site is written specifically by Colin. Now, if it is written by another person then it can be used as a reference. But I do not see what is wrong in parrotting the Runnymede Trust definition of Islamophobia however, according to you what remains now is that we need more usage of this term for it to have a place on Wikipedia. Garywbush 09:34, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

btw, I found this quite funny :) dab (ᛏ) 10:41, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Now that is what I call an independent article! Thanks, Dbachmann for pointing this out :) as the reference of kafirphobia that you found is by a totally different author, Hamzah Moin. This article can lend credibility to the term coined by Colin Chee since it is not by Colin Chee. I found another web site in the Malay language, [1] hosted at muhandis.net that used the word kaafirphobia independently of Colin Chee. So, I will right away restore back the kaafirphobia (or kafirphobia) to the article Kafir or Kaafir. I will include all these three authors. Garywbush 09:34, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Quoting your edit: According to one of the reasons given by Mr. Hamzah Moin, Kafirphobia is caused by massive stomach irritation when eating at a restaurant owned by kafirs. That Hamzah Moin was writing a satire. And are you sure about your translation? In your translation, you missed "enggak", which means "no". The meaning is quite different if you include enggak in your translation. __earth 11:44, August 25, 2005 (UTC)
Actually, what Hamzah meant is that Muslims are forbidden by Syariah to eat in Kafir restaurants as the food prepared by a Kafir is not Halal. So, it is quite true and hardly satire but the way he worded it is to make reading his article pleasurable. If you think my translation is wrong, why don't you give your own translation of that phrase? Garywbush 04:04, 26 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
one geocities site by unconfirmed Malaysian social scientists plus one online parody piece by someone self-identifying as "Maniac Muslim" does not make for sufficient notability even for Wikipedia. Come back once you spot the term on BBC or the NYT. dab (ᛏ) 13:06, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
But it would be very unfair to say kafirphobia must exist on BBC or NYT when there are so many other terms whose notablity come from web sites, for instance Mark Rosenfelder's Language Construction Kit. So, I think kafirphobia deserves mention in the Kafir article as Robdurbar has said below. Garywbush 04:04, 26 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Kafirphobia is deserved of perhaps one or two sentences within this article, but no more and certainly not a long section. e.g. 'The word'kafir' has also been developed into the neologism 'kafirphobia' to describe an irrational fear or hatered of non-Muslims. This is yet to prove a common use, however.' Robdurbar 16:25, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it is deserved as there are three sources, which can be used as reference. So, do you agree then that we describe it within one or two sentences, i.e. kafirphobia describes an irrational fear or hatred of non-Muslims? Do you have anything else to add to this sentence? Garywbush 04:04, 26 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
So, we currently have three Wikipedians (Robdurbar, Alibadawi, and myself) who want the term to be included in the Kafir entry. Dbachmann originally agreed but he is now trying to find excuses but most of his excuses are not valid because as I pointed out Wikipedia has many other articles than have been entered some on borderline notability and some on notability based on Google. There is no rule that it must appear on two leftist media, NYT and BBC. In that case, compare three of us to Dbachmann, and Earth and so we logically win. Garywbush 04:35, 26 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
If the majority says 1 + 1 = 3, that does not make the answer 3. For that reason, Wikipedia is not a democracy. Moreover, if we were to take a vote, Shem, Heraclius, Dbachmann and me would be on one side and Robdurbar, Alibadawi and you be on the other. That would be 4 against 3. Discounting user less than 100 edits, it wouold be 4 vs 1. I'm not sure where Dab stands but if he's pro-inclusion, then that would make it 3 against 4. Discouting users less than 100 edits, that would be 3 vs 2. So, taking a vote is not your best interest if you want to include kafirphobia. __earth 04:49, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
kafirophobia is an ad hoc coinage. The geocities site is a single page; I can put up a similar page in ten minutes about any phobia you care to mention. At first glance I agreed to list the term because I took the geocities page seriously, but then I realized that it is nothing more than an attempt to coin a term (for whatever reason), and was probably even created with the express purpose as a reference so the term can make it on Wikipedia. Sorry, that's not good enough. Kaafirophobia was deleted per Vfd. You can Vfd Language Construction Kit, if you like, but that has no relation to our topic here. If the term becomes really popular on blogs, we can insert it as part of 'internet culture'. Our purpose here must be to improve this article, on the term 'Kafir'. At the moment, there is hardly more than a definition. So, really, you should focus on bringing up information relevant to the term itself, and not some spurious neologism. dab (ᛏ) 06:15, 26 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I should make a modification to my earlier edit; I really ought to have said that I meant kafirphobia required one or two sentences AT MOST, but agree with earth and dab in that the article does not miss much without it and that its status is questionable. However, for the sake of ending this dispute, I think that a small mention of it would be a good compromise Robdurbar 15:55, 28 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
fine. How about laconic "Kafir(o)phobia has been [humorously] coined as a term mirroring Islamophobia"? dab (ᛏ) 18:01, 28 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As already argued, "Kaafirophobia" and "Kafirophobia" are definitely neologisms. I went ahead and looked through fourteen English dictionaries, two Deutsch, one Arabic, and a few etymological texts just for fun . The words do not exist outside of a few people using them as part of their personal idiolects.

The OED is considered *the* authority for words in the English language. The closest match is Kaffir. Thus:

From the Oxford English Dictionary, second edition (1989) - online version (and therefore the one most frequently updated with new words that have something resembling common usage) P.MacUidhir 18:40, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Length OED quote moved to Talk:kaffir (disambiguation). Jorge Stolfi 22:06, 21 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sock puppets

I suspect alibadawi and Garywbush are indeed the same person. Please check user:alibadawi's talk history

This is a slander against me by Earth who is a Muslim. The Islamic religion teaches to circumvent the non-Muslims and slander is one real life examples we can see between the clash between Islam and non-Muslims used by Muslims to win a debate. I am not Alibadawi nor will I ever be nor do I know who is he nor have I ever met him. Earth must have hacked my account as I suspect he my password was my username and added that so as to discredit me. He does not like the term Kafirphobia added to Kafir and is trying to find fault with me. Earth, my recommendation is for you to apologise. Garywbush 01:24, 12 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Why would Garywbush say sorry for the thing that he didn't do? It was alibadawi that violated 3R rule and he should say sorry instead. But no, it was Gary. And Garywbush's action to undo his edit there makes the case against him stronger. __earth 10:16, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

I did not say sorry as I have no reason to apologise for a thing I did not do. You, Earth knew my password was my username and hacked into my account and did it. I have since changed my password, so you cannot repeat this lame act. I think you dislike the term Kafirphobia included in this article, so you have to find some fault with me, which is why you did what you did. It is strange you bring up this issue and you being a Muslim too. Garywbush 01:24, 12 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I've brought this alleged sockpuppetry to RfC and wikiquette. __earth 04:35, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
So, what if a person like you brings it up? Wikipedia is not a democracy so, it does not matter what you and your fellow Muslims like or do not like. If it is truth, you must show evidence. No matter if majority say I am a sockpuppet it will not make it true. I have existed on Wikipedia for a very long time. You need to prove I am a socketpuppet or you are committed slander, which is a violation of the Wikipedia policy. Garywbush 01:24, 12 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Proof? I've given it. It's here. In fact, when presented the proof, you accused me of hacking into your account. __earth 04:57, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

Slander by __earth against User:Garywbush

Slander as we know it as against Wikipedia policy and Earth did not even email me when my email address is clearly on my User Page. He just began slandering me that I was related to User:Alibadawi, who he claimed was my socketpuppet. I am sure slander is against Wikipedia policy and I want to know the process to bring this up to the appropriate Wikipedia authorities. Garywbush 01:31, 12 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I did inform you on your userpage. I even informed alibadawi but he deleted that msg for some reason. About slander allegation, this is a possible proof that makes me suspicious of you. Not to mention, the existence of possible socketpuppets in the VfD page. All we need now is an sysop to do a checkup. __earth 04:52, September 12, 2005 (UTC)
_earth has been cautious and shown a wish to follow wikipedia policy on this issue; see Wikipedia talk:Sock puppet#Suspected sockpuppets Robdurbar 10:04, 12 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

why is this talkpage used as a forum for sockpuppet allegations and related accusations? go to WP:RFC, WIkipedia:Dispute resolution. dab (ᛏ) 10:16, 12 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

as far as i'm aware, it is on RFC somewhere but that's such an unorganised mess that its impossible to find the relevant comments Robdurbar 10:23, 12 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Kafir != People of the Book?

Kafirs include the People of the Book. The word "kafir" literally means "one who conceals the Truth." Muslims believe that the Jews and Christians concealed the Truth by "corrupting" (altering) their holy books. The incorrectly article claims that the People of the Book are not kafirs and fails to give a citation. --Zeno of Elea 10:55, 2 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There are definitely different views on this. The USC MSA site gives the definition of "Kafir: a person who refuses to submit himself to Allah (God), a disbeliever in God", to which the people of the book would not fit. Now take your more extreme groups and they surely would not agree. The key is not what does it mean, but what does it mean to whom. gren グレン 15:25, 2 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It really depends on the Muslims you ask. Personally, I was taught that all non-Muslims are among the Kafiroon. And, I was also taught that it's a sin to call believers non-believers and non-believers believers. There's a surah in the Quran about this....
"Chapter 109. al-Kafirun: The Unbelievers:
In the name of the merciful and compassionate God. Say, 'O ye misbelievers! I do not serve what ye serve; nor will ye serve what I serve; nor will I serve what ye serve; nor will ye serve what I serve;-ye have your religion, and I have my religion!'" --JuanMuslim 05:01, 3 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Yusif Ali's commentary in his translation; "The Holy Qur'an", (p. 18, 1989) has a oppinion of this matter. As his english translation is more widespread that the Pikthal version, I would anticipate that many people share this view, athough divergent opinions also exist. --Dr.Worm 20:26, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Kafara, kufr, kafir, and derivative forms of the word, imply a deliberate rejection of Faith as opposed to a mistaken idea of Allah or faith, which is not inconsistent with an earnest desire to see the truth. Where there is such desire, the Grace and Mercy of Allah gives guidance. But that guidance is not efficacious when it is deliberately rejected, and the possibility of rejection follows from the grant of free will. The consequence of the rejection is that the spiritual faculties become dead or impervious to better influences. . . We now come to a third class of people, the hypocrites. They are untrue to themselves, and therefore their hearts are diseased (2:10.) The disease tends to spread, like all evil. They are curable but if they harden their hearts, they soon pass into the category of those who deliberately reject light."

"One who rejects the true faith"

WP:NOT a place for advocacy, and we are not a location which should be calling any religion the "true faith." Therefore, this wording is POV. The word is a derogatory term for non-muslims, and that is how it should be described. Queeran

derogatory term

The term kafir is not necessarily a derogatory term. It's usage is similar to the term Jew used by very conservative Muslims. Its equivalent English term, the non-believer, is similar is nature. It depends on how it's used. In other word, it depends on its context. __earth 02:00, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Every usage of the term I have seen indicates it is derogatory, just as the term "goyim" is derogatory when used by Jews to refer to non-Jews or "heathen" from christians to non-christians. Please cite a source saying otherwise. Queeran
Every usage of the term I have seen indicates it is derogatory. Well, I've seen some but not all. How about you cite your source first? It's you that are contending its Wikipedia status quo meaning. The onus is on you actually. However, the citation is already in place before you've asked it. It's that [1] thing. Trying clicking on it. __earth 02:49, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
A Christian (or, obviously, ex-Christian) friend of mine used it of herself, anyway... Palmiro | Talk 16:15, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Definition

The definition in the article currently strikes me as a bit, em, weird. The word kafir is almost always used in Arabic to refer to a non-believer, not to "someone who hides the truth". That may be its original meaning, or its etymological origin, but neither of those are what we should give as its actual current meaning. Also, the next paragraph reads very like a cut-and-paste from some website (islamonline.net) which I can't access (presumably because they're nasty loonies).

I propose changing the definition to reflect the real meaning, and I woudl suggest that a good, NPOV and sourced way of doing this would be to use the translations given by Arabic-English dictionaries. We could try Hans Wehr and al-Mawrid. Palmiro | Talk 23:21, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. The current definition is misleading as an introduction, because kafir is a label, classification, and idea apart from a simple word. Literal meaning is strongly related to the etymology and that has its own section. Citing a dictionary sounds good. Both Mawrid and Wehr dictionaries should be very acceptable. --Vector4F 23:46, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'll do that then, checked Wehr last night in fact but forgot to note it down (meanings given included infidel, unbeliever and atheist, much as I expected). Palmiro | Talk 16:13, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Translations

Elias' pocket dictionary translates kafr as to cover, hide. The al-majani pocket dictionary translates the root 'kfr' as to deny God To be or become an unbeliever, and none of the derived words listed have the meaning of cover or hide. It looks like there is a good deal of ambiguity. The Infidel 19:05, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

It ocurred to me: since this move would change the meaning of the link kafir, not of kafir (Islam), shouldn't the vote be done on the current Talk:kafir page (i.e. Talk:Kaffir (disambiguation))? Doing the vote here will limit the vote to readers/editors of kafir (Islam), who naturally would prefer the shorter name. Jorge Stolfi 09:11, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Put a notice there. There's no need to move the whole discussion from here to there. __earth (Talk) 11:08, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Approval voting is encouraged for page moves requested on WP:RM. In approval voting only votes cast in support of a name are valid. One can vote for multiple options and people are encouraged to add alternative proposals in chronological order if it helps to reach a consensus — Preceding unsigned comment added by Philip Baird Shearer (talk • contribs)

Name should remain at Kafir (Islam)

  • Support better than Kafir. --Philip Baird Shearer 16:37, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm sorry but isn't this redundant? I mean, "remain at here" vote vs "move there" vote. Isn't a support vote here equal to an oppose vote in the other? __earth (Talk) 16:49, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    No, under approval voting one can vote for as many proposals as one wishes too, but it is an approval vote so there no opposing votes. Opposing is done by not voting for a proposal. The idea is that tactical voting can be used by participants to encourage a consensus to emerge. As more than one possible move has been suggested, and no one has yet written up other rules to deal with such a straw poll, it is the least contentious solution and the one prescribed by WP:RM. One has to have the original page name as an option because it is no longer a binary choice. --Philip Baird Shearer 17:42, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed move to Kafir

  • Support Although kafir and kaffir may be confused with at times, kaffir is an uncommon transliteration of kafir; they are two distinct words. It didn't make sense to make this move in the first place, especially because the original article does not redirect directly to this one. joturner 23:20, 29 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The article is about the word kafir in arabic language in general as well as its special meaning in the context of islam and its use in the qur'an. The article should be renamed back to kafir, or at least kafir should redirect here and not to the disambiguity page. The Infidel 19:21, 30 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The original move was unilateral and without proper discussion. For disambiguity page, it would be easy to say this is kafir related to Islam. For other usage, see here kind of stuff. __earth (Talk) 05:50, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, or move to Kufr (which currently redirects here). Palmiro | Talk 23:19, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support , IMO it would be better to move to kafir(Arabic term), since the word is used in Quran in many different meanings , other then a non-muslim , as evident from the article . F.a.y.تبادله خيال /c 19:54, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support move back to Kafir or Kafir (Arabic term). This whole article is about the Qur'anic Arabic term; infidel is a separate English word with its own special connotations. QuartierLatin1968 El bien mas preciado es la libertad 19:23, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

proposed move to Infidel

Kafir (Islam) → infidel – As discussed above, the article's title "kafir", with this sense, is an Arabic word that has not been assimilated into English, and which has a standard translation, "infidel". Namely, when translating an Arabic text that uses the word "kafir" into English, that word is noramlly translated as "infidel", not left as "kafir". The word "infidel" is not used for any other purpose (except for some archaic uses that are too old to be relevant to article naming issues). Per Wikipedia rules, the article should be renamed to the English word.
On the other hand, the word "kafir" is used in English but with other senses: (1) as an alternate spelling (not misspelling) of "Kaffir", used e.g. in "Kafir Wars", "kafir corn", etc; (2) as "Kafir", the name of the "Nuri" peoples of Nuristan before their forced Islamization at the end of the 19th century (see Hindukush Kafir people and Kafiristan). These other senses of "kafir" in English are additional reasons to use another name for "kafir (Islam)". Jorge Stolfi 09:44, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

proposed move to kafir (Arabic term)

Discussion

This is bullshit. We need to vote to return the page to its original address but we didn't have to when it was moved here. __earth (Talk) 03:13, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Earth, note Wikipedia:Civility. But yes, I do agree that it doesn't make sense that we need a vote to move the page back to its original location. joturner 03:17, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Original explanation of the move to "kafir (Islam)"

I have renamed this page to "Kafir (Islam)" as part of a cleanup of the many articles relating to "Kafir"/"Kaffir", which were a big mess. The idea is that this page will be limited to the Arabic word commonly (mis?)translated as "infidel", and to its religious sense only. Other senses (including the S.African "Kaffir" epithet for Blacks and the Kafir of Nuristan) belong to other pages. I am not sure whether this is the best name for this page, though.
All the best, Jorge Stolfi 05:32, 21 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm unconvinced, since both "Kaffir" and "Kafirstan" are not unrelated random homonyms, but rather derived from this meaning, and could validly be regarded sub-articles of this one. In general, in situations as involved as this one, it would be a good idea to ask for input before exacting the move and changing all redirects. dab (ᛏ) 15:49, 21 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
According to the old Kafirstan article (now in Hindukush Kafir people, which should probably be merged with Nuristani or Nuri people), the Arabic etymology of "Kafir" is disputed. Some people claim that the correct self-name of those people sounded somewhat like Arabic "kafir"=infidel, so Arabs called them by that word due to a transcription error, wordplay, folk-etymology, or something of the sort. (After all, they were infidels, right?). Now, while I am not qualified to take sides, it seems quite strange to me that a non-Muslim, non-Arabic-speaking people in a remote corner of Afghanistan would choose to call themselves by an Arabic word that meant "the non-believers"...
All the best, Jorge Stolfi 18:38, 21 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
PS. Anyway, shared etymology is not a sufficient excuse for merging articles. Otherwise we should merge, say, Flores, Florence, and Florinda Bolkan. Jorge Stolfi 18:43, 21 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think this move was necessary. Kafir now redirects to the Kaffir disambiguation page, which enumerates articles that use the word "kaffir" and not "kafir". That would be like moving the Desert article to Desert (landscape form) and redirecting Desert to a disambiguation page entitled Dessert. Yes, they are commonly confused but they have two distinct spellings. Instead I think we should have this as the kafir page and then put a note on the top directing those that may be looking for "kaffir" instead to that disambiguation page. In fact, I am going to do that in accordance with Dbachmann's opposition to your move earlier and because you made this large move w/o saying something on the talk page. joturner 22:56, 29 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The split was absolutely essential. For one thing, the articles now are much cleaner than the old merged article, and each interest group can edit their own article without having to fight with the other groups.
The various senses of the word are indeed very different senses; "Kaffir" as "African Blacks" has *nothing* to do with the Islamic "kafir" term except the (distant, and now irrelevant) etymology. Ditto for *all* the other 20 or so senses listed in the disamb page, some of which have not even the same etymology; and some of those senses are fairly important. (It is quite likely that the "kaffir lime" page, for example, has many more readers than "kafir (Islam)").
For that reason, "Kaffir" must defintely point to the disamb page.
So it boils down to the question of whether "Kafir" (with one "f") should point directly to "kafir (Islam)". That is more debatable, but there are good reasons to leave it pointing to the disamb page, too. Note that the "Kafir people" (Nuri) sense, almost always written with one "f", appear to be unrelated even etymologically (the popular etimology seems to have been induced by a coincidence of sounds). More importantly, "kaffir" in many of the other senses is often spelled "kafir". This is not a spelling error (as in the dessert/desert example), but variant spellings that people are likely to use, since the word has been transliterated from several foreign languages, several times independently. For example, "kafir corn" has ~500 hits in Google, and "kaffir corn" has ~800; "kafir language" has ~250 hits, "kaffir language" has ~370. I think that it makes sense to keep "kafir" pointing to the disamb page.
All the best, Jorge Stolfi 13:03, 30 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I would have to go for redirecting the Kafir article to Kafir (Islam). But then that does not make any sense. There are no other articles entitled "kafir" with one f. Why would we redirect the Kafir article here when we can just keep the article at Kafir and avoid the unnecessary redirect? And on top of that, the article was at Kafir in the first place. We should not be discussing whether we should move the article back to its original state. Instead, we should move the article back to its original state and then be dicussing whether the large move you made without discussion should be made. joturner 05:23, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There are articles on the Kafir people of the Hindukush. They had to get a longer title precisely because Kafir was already arbitrarily taken by the Islamic sense. Jorge Stolfi 05:28, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What is the name of the article you are referring to? joturner 05:33, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hindukush Kafir people Jorge Stolfi 05:39, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
PS. The move from kafir to kafir (Islam) was necessary precisely to allow kafir to point to the disamb page. Jorge Stolfi 05:39, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
One more reason not to redirect: The word "kafir" with the non-Islamic meanings is an English word (E.g. "Kafir Wars", 157 hits in Google, "Kaffir Wars", 861; ditto for "kafir corn", "kafir language", etc.). Whereas the "kafir" or kafir (Islam) is an Arabic word, not assimilated into English.
So, if anything, the article should be retitled "infidel" or "infidel (Islam)", which seems to be the common English equivalent of the term. All the best, Jorge Stolfi 05:28, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comparing the number of Google hits is not relevant in this case because you are Googling "kafir wars" which can mean many things. I don't even see how that relates to the Islamic use of the word. joturner 05:36, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed it doesn't; that is exactly the point. Jorge Stolfi 05:44, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

More on move to "infidel"

Do you also advocate deleting the Allah article? Or the Cinco de Mayo article? Allah, Cinco de Mayo, and kafir and all common words/phrases by at least one group in the English-speaking population and thus do not need to be reworked because of language. joturner 05:31, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"Allah" is the standard English spelling of the *name*, just as "Cinco de Mayo" is a *name*. The article about Brazil, for instance, is appropriately called "Brazil" not "Brasil". The word "kafir" in the Islamic sense is not a name. Jorge Stolfi 05:44, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

On the name Infidel: Should kamikaze be moved to suicide attack? No. __earth (Talk) 11:06, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not the same thing. The word "kamikaze" is often left untranslated when translating Japanese text to English, because English readers are used to it. "Suicide bomber" is not the English equivalent of "kamikaze", it is much more general. Neither holds for "kafir (Islam)"/"infidel". Jorge Stolfi 22:04, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

On the name Infidel: Kafir is used by a reasonable number of English-speakers to have its own article. We don't redirect Allah to God or Cinco de Mayo to May 5. joturner 11:15, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not the same thing. "Allah" is an English word, and "God" is not equivalent to it. "Cinco de Mayo" is well-known in English and means the Mexican holiday; "May 5" is not equivalent, it is just a date. Jorge Stolfi 22:04, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
In Arab, Allah means god. Even non-Muslims uses Allah to describe the same thing but refer Allah to their god instead. The only thing is that its has been traditionally understood Muslim's god. The same with Kafir. It has a specific Islamic meaning. __earth (Talk) 03:06, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

On the name Infidel: WHO IS TRYING TO COVER THE TRUTH? or: where has my Oppose gone? Is this a kind of Florida election or what? The Infidel 22:39, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

RTRM. What is a Florida election? --Philip Baird Shearer 00:46, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I believe he's referring to the 2000 US presidential election. joturner 01:07, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, user Joturner is right. But what's an RTRM?
By the way, I discovered where my opinion had gone: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Kafir_%28Islam%29&diff=prev&oldid=37738408
The Infidel 20:42, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Left dangling in the reshuffling

The word "kafir" seems to be a common variant (not misspelling!) of "kaffir", which has many important senses not related to kafir (Islam). It is not clear that the latter sense is so much more important that it deserves to be made the default sense.Jorge Stolfi 05:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC) PS. Besides, it is an unassimilated Arabic word that has an English translation, so the title is inappropriate anyway. Jorge Stolfi 08:00, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Different idea

Not only is this "vote" horribly mangled and difficult to follow (although, thankfully, it isn't full of ----s... but the proposal itself is a really bad idea... While everyone has one conception of what "infidel" means when used to translate kafir, the word "infidel" has a very different meaning in English in contexts free from the taint of Islamoengineered discussion. If the article is moved it should be moved to Infidel (Islam), not to Infidel. Tomertalk 01:18, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The problem here is that infidel is a totally different concept than Kafir . Infidel includes more or less all non-christians , while in the case of Kafir , Ahl-e-kitab ( that includes zorasterans & sometimes hindus ) & ahl al fatrah arnt included in this term . So calling it Infidel (Islam) would be a serious mistake . F.a.y.تبادله خيال /c 19:42, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia and Geocities

It seems that the problem here is the "Geocities syndrome", something that I have seen happening in many other places through Wikipedia. Namely, one or more people who are interested in something start writing an article on it, directed only to those readers who are concerned with the subject. That is, an article that reads like a typical thematic site on the internet — as if Wikipedia was the latest reincarnation of Geocities. Please, folks, let's not forget that every Wikipedia article should be written for the random wikipedia reader who, has a rule, knows very little of the subject and has no long-term interest on it.

Not just the old name, but also the contents of the "kafir (Islam)" article seem to suffer from that problem. The article reads as if it was directed to a relatively small subset of the readers (even among Muslim readers) who are already familiar with the term. It focuses on fine "insider" disputes, with plenty of "proof by citation of authority" arguments (which are not appropriate for a Wikipedia article), while omitting even the most basic facts that a non-Muslim reader from Greenland or Tahiti would want to know. (By the way, this was the most common problem of the many articles I cleaned up over the past month, including a dozen articles about various senses of kafir/kaffir, articles on a dozen creole/kriol/kreyol/kriolu languages, on Portuguese-related topics, and a handful more.)

As I see it, this controversy about the move "kafir" -> "kafir (Islam)" is just another facet of that same problem. In the comments above, there does not seen to be much concern about the convenience of benefit for the general readers, especially those who are not interested in "kafir (Islam)" but in other senses of kafir. Rather, it seems that those editors who have this page on their watchlist (perhaps less than a dozen?) oppose the move because it would be (slightly) inconvenient to them.

Although English is not my native language, for the last 30 years (including the 13 years I lived in the US) I have been reading more English than all other languages combined. And I have read a lot of stuff, including a fair amount of material about Islam, with many translated quotes from Muslims of all epochs and stations. I have seen many foreign words like kamikaze and Cinco de Mayo used in ordinary Enlish texts, thousands of times. I have seen uncountably many times Allah, Caliph, Imam, Ramadan, sharia, fatwa, jihad, sura, bismillah, and somehow I even got to memorize alf laila wa-laila. Now, I may have been extraordinarily unlucky, but I do not recall ever seeing the word "kafir" used in English for the sense of "infidel" — which, on the other hand, must be almost as frequent as "Allah".

If I recall correctly, I got to the "kafir"/"kaffir" pages, a couple of weeks ago, through an article which originally said something like "baila is popular among the Kaffir, descendant of the Kaffir slaves who were brought ro Sri Lanka by the Portuguese. These kaffrinha ...". Namely, a typical "Geocities-style" article. It took me several hours of searching and reading to make some sense out of the several articles on the various senses of kafir. The few pointers between those pages were often misleading, e.g. by assuming that the Kafir of Kafiristan was a sub-sense of kafir=infidel. In fact, it took me some time to realize that the "kafir" article was actually about "infidel", since the head paragraph said that "infidel" was an incorrect translation of the term (which it is not).

The move kafir -> kafir (Islam) was only a small part of the cleanup that I did of all those kafir/kaffir articles. It was several days of collecting the information, moving it to the proper pages, removing duplication, sorting, fixing layout, prose, markup, links, disambiguation, and of course writing the "kaffir (disambiguation)" page. Of course I got no "thanks" for all that work, only complaints about an innocuous (actually, quite helpful and appropriate, I would say) name change, by a small set of editors who apparently believe their "kafir" to be so much more important than other people's "kafir"s that it should be the default sense. But I am used to wikipedia, and that doesn't hurt any more. Not too much, I mean.

Well, I think that I have already wasted far too much time, mine and especially other people's, on this nit. As the Elders say, there are a million other articles out there where I could waste time in more positive and agreeable ways.
So long, and all the best. Jorge Stolfi 14:45, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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