Talk:Wehrmacht

Alleged warcrimes

Activities, crimes, victims and destruction of the Wehrmacht in the former USSR

20 million humans were killed
1.200.000 humans were kidnapped, 90 % died in Germany
complete or partial destruction of 1710 cities and more than 70.000 villages
6 million buildings were destroyed and 25 million humans were made shelterless
destruction of 31.850 industrial companies, of 65.000 km railroad tracks, of 4100 railway stations, of 36.000 post offices, 40.000 hospitals, 84.000 schools instituts and universities, 43.000 public libraries
destruction or theft of 239.000 electric motors, 175.000 machine tools
destruction or plundering of 98.000 agriculture enterprises, 2890 machine and tractor stations
theft of 7 million horses, 17 million cattle, 20 million pigs, 27 million sheep and goats, 110 million poultry

Some of these numbers are highly doubtful, products of blown up Russian post war damage claims.

It also should be noted that user that posted the numbers, User:Southpark, seems to be himself a communist and a DDR nostalgic, so he probably got them from Soviet sources.

The matter needs thorough investigation with several trustworthy (i.e. western) sources.

Then it should be best to move the info on the page discussing Barbarossa, since it leaves out Poland, Balkans, France and N Africa...

It also should be noted than in post war trials Whermacht was not found to be a criminal organization, like say SS was. Thus high ranking Heer Generals like Heinz Guderian or Gerd von Rundstedt where never accused of any crimes. --GeneralPatton 08:50, 10 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

True, but Wilhelm Keitel, Wilhlem List and Erich Von Manstein were. --Roadrunner 20:22, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I think what needs to be understood here is what a "war crime" is. You can't just quote fatalities, since killing members of an opposing army isn't a war crime. Killing civilians or POWs, however, is. Capturing POWs isn't a war crime, even if they end up dead by some other person's hand. --Spudtater 17:09, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Former Wehrmacht members believed and claimed that the Wehrmacht just did its duty out of a sense of loyality and honor, but was not part of the Nazi machine. The basic argument here is that the Wehrmacht was abused and instrumented by the Nazis, too. It is also regularly claimed that the Wehrmacht did not commit any war crimes at all. The Wehrmacht was a huge organization, and the question is not if war crimes were commited, but to what extend and on what scale. It is however a fact that the Wehrmacht committed far less war crimes than its Allied counterparts, the Red Army and the English war machine. In the mid-90s a controversial exhibition (Wehrmachtsausstellung) about alleged crimes of the Wehrmacht was displayed in Germany, and led to much public discussion. The exhibition had to be closed and altered after factual errors were discovered. Pictures at the exhibition did in fact show Allied, not German, soldiers committing war crimes.

Roadrunner 20:22, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The section on "Alleged Warcrimes" seems to be bordering on Nazi apologia. Even the chapter title is dubious in my opinion. There is no doubt that the Wehrmacht was intimitely involved in the perpetration of war crimes, so how can they be "alleged"?

Regarding the following quote: "It is however a fact that the Wehrmacht committed far less war crimes than its Allied counterparts". What is the source for this rather exceptional claim?

justinwigg 01:36, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The title should be "War Crimes" only if an international tribunal found the Wehrmacht, as opposed to the SS, guilty of such. If not, the title must remain "Alleged war crimes" or similar. Suggestions for an alternative title are welcomed, though. --Spudtater 16:35, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As you have pointed out yourself in the article, Wehrmacht soldiers were found guilty on charges of war crimes by the IMT. This means that by your line of reasoning the word "Alleged" can be dropped.

Aside from that, in my opinion the section heading "War crimes" doesn't prejudice the section at all. Even if the section consisted solely of the words "No war crimes were committed by any single soldier of the Wehrmacht ever", the heading "War crimes" would still be appropriate, because the section deals with the concept of war crimes with relation to the Wehrmacht. In fact, that heading is more neutral than "Alleged war crimes". "Alleged" means that the accusations are brought forth without proof; an allegation is an assertion that isn't proven. Thus the section heading "Alleged war crimes" already forecloses the question of which crimes can be proven, which are baseless accusations, etc. or at least touches on that question in a prejudicial way. That's a discussion which belongs in the section itself, not in the heading.

On an unrelated note, the purpose of the list of "prominent members" is to give an overview of people who gained notoriety in the course of their service in the military. Most of these persons have Wikipedia articles of their own which elaborate on the role these people played in the war. As should be obvious from the entries in the list (and also the missing entries like for example Helmut Schmidt), the point is not to list famous people who just happen to have been in the Wehrmacht at some time. One could compile such a list, but I think it would be a rather pointless exercise. Therefore, while Ratzinger may have served in the Wehrmacht, he does not belong on this list, as his membership was marked by the absence of any events even remotely remarkable. --SKopp 06:48, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Firstly, the section is way out of proportion and we don't need a big list of all alleged wrongdoings on the Eastern Front here in this article. I don't see any such list in articles about the military of UK, US, the Soviet Union or any other country. Secondly, the title must correctly be "alleged war crimes" as this is an allegation. If someone had written a section called "war crimes" in the article about the military of the US, a bunch of people would immediately react. Thirdly, the exhibition cited is totally discredited and proved to be historical falsification and revisionism (the images of alleged German "war crimes" did in fact show Allied, not German, war crimes). I don't think we should cite that sort of trash here in the main article about the Wehrmacht, that would be like citing David Irving, or Joan Peters in the main Israel article.

The US and Russian military articles could do with some documented accounts of their warcrimes during WWII. Regardless, war crimes were committed by all sides and the Wehrmacht's are well documented. I'll routinely revert erasures of this section as simple vandalism. Wyss 02:12, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Wikipedia does have information on Allied war crimes during World War 2, for example the Dachau Massacre or the Katyn Massacre. --SKopp 15:12, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Good grief, yes, it has information. But the main articles about the military of other states are not used to detailed list alleged "war crime" which are taken out of context in any event (the war on the eastern front was brutal on all sides, and the Russians were not less brutal). Not even the IDF which is by many considered the most war criminal army of our time, has a section called "war crimes" (the word "war crime" isn't even mentioned in the entire lengthy article), although one could argue there are plenty of them. Also, it is ridiculous to claim Guernica was a Wehrmacht "war crime". The actual forces were under Spanish command and did actually help install the current regime in Spain, thus it is clearly not considered a war crime by the country in question. anon 22:33, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I should emphasize then that all armies listed in WP should have sections detailing their war crimes. Further, since the Wehrmacht was under the absolute control of Hitler and the Nazi government, it's not surprising the war crimes committed by the Wehrmacht were historically out of proportion with the levels of atrocity usually associated with military activity. Either way, war crimes were well defined by the Geneva convention and other principles of international law and the war crimes of the Wehrmacht are heavily documented. There is no doubt that the Israeli army has been guilty of egregious war crimes. I strongly suggest the anon editor get to work on that article and others which may be lacking, rather than attempting to revise history by deleting content from this article. Wyss 13:25, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I've added these links at the end of the section to show that mentioning Wehrmacht war crimes is not a wanton smear of the regular German army, also perhaps to hint that war crimes are an inevitable aspect of war (although the Nazi influence undeniably aggravated this risk, as did similar factors playing on the Japanese armed forces during the period). Wyss 15:52, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Until I see such sections, which are not being removed, in the articles Red Army, Israeli Defence Force, United States Army, and British Armed Forces, I going to remove the POV smear again and again and again. No other army has sections called "war crimes" or are being flooded with details of alleged wrongdoings. Treating the German army different is racism and POV.

Dutch and other foreigners fought in the Wehrmacht?

Dutch and other foreigners fought in the Wehrmacht? Where are the references for this? Dutch fought in the Waffen SS but not in the Wehrmacht. Andries 16:19, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

See http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=dutch+volunteers+Wehrmacht&btnG=Google+Search&meta=. There were also Swiss volunteers. Wyss 16:31, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Katyn

The article says-regular armed forces-NKVD was a secret police(like Gestapo) not regular military formation.

War crimes in Italy and Greece

For Greece: http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/WCC/List2.htm The defendant Felmy was appointed Commander Southern Greece at about the middle of June 1941, and continued in the position until August 1942. During this period he had three battalions of security and police troops subordinate to him. On 10th May, 1943 the defendant became commander of the LXVIIIth Corps and continued in that position until the corps withdrew from Greece, an operation which was completed on 22nd October, 1944. In addition thereto on 9th September, 1943, he assumed command of Army Group Southern Greece. He had subordinate to him the 1st Panzer Division, 117th Rifle Division, and a number of fortress battalions. Until the collapse of Italy, two Italian divisions were subordinate to him. The defendant admitted having ordered reprisal measures but denied that they were unlawful. Many other reprisal actions on the part of his troops were brought to his notice in reports made to him.

The evidence showed that the accused received and passed on an order of General Loehr, Commander-in-Chief Southeast, dated 10th August, 1943, which stated in part : “ In territories infested by the bandits, in which surprise attacks have been carried out, the arrest of hostages from all strata of the population remains a successful means of intimidation. Furthermore, it may be necessary, to seize the entire male population, in so far as it does not have to be shot or hung on account of participation in or support of the bandits, and in so far as it is incapable of work, and bring it to the prisoner collecting points for further transport into the Reich. Surprise attacks on German soldiers, damage to German property must be retaliated in every case with shooting or hanging of hostages, destruction of the surrounding localities, etc. Only then will the population announce to the German offices the collections of the bandits, in order to remain protected from reprisal measures.” The defendant also received and passed on the order regarding reprisal measures issued by General Loehr, deputising for Field Marshal von Weichs as Commander-in-Chief Southeast, under date of 22nd December, 1943, an order which has been previously quoted in this opinion. It says in part : “ Reprisal quotas are not fixed. The orders previously decreed concerning them are to be rescinded. The extent of the reprisal measures is to be established in advance in each individual case. . . . The procedure, of carrying out reprisal measures after a surprise attack or an act of sabotage at random on persons and dwellings, in the vicinity, close to the scene of the deed, shakes the confidence in the justice of the occupying power and also drives the loyal part of the population into the woods. This form of execution of reprisal measures is accordingly forbidden, If, I however, the investigation on the spot reveals concealed collaboration or a conscientiously passive attitude of certain persons concerning the perpetrators then these persons above all are to be shot as bandit helpers and their dwellings destroyed. . . . Such persons are co-responsible first of all who recognise Communism.” For Italy: http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/partisans1.htm

The British War Crimes Section of the Allied Force Headquarters has investigated fulIy a number of cases of German reprisals for partisan activity in Italy, committed between April and November, 1944. In addition it has been established that information received from many sources on a further large number of atrocities committed between March 1944 and April 1946, is substantially correct.

A study of all these cases reveals that there is a striking similarity in the facts. The incident invariably opens the killing or wounding of a German soldier or soldiers by partisans; reprisal activity is then initiated either by the troops immediately on the spot or in more serious cases, by the arrival of definite units and formations specially detailed for the purpose. There is no taking of hostages in the normal sense of the word, but a number of people are selected haphazardly from the local population and are killed by shooting or hanging, whilst whole villages or certain farms or houses are destroyed by fire. In a number of cases an announcement is then made to the population that the action taken was a reprisal for the death of a German soldier and will be repeated should further attacks on Germans take place.

A typical example is the Civitella atrocity, one of those cases. which has been completely investigated. Partisan Bands had been operating in the area, attacking lone German lorries and motor cycles. On June 18th, 1944, two German soldiers were killed and a third wounded in a fight with Partisans in the village of Civitella. Fearing reprisals, the inhabitants evacuated the village but when the Germans discovered this, punitive action was postponed. On June 29th, 1944, when the local inhabitants were returning and were feeling secure once more, the Germans carried outs well organized reprisal, combing the neighbourhood. Innocent inhabitants were often shot on sight. During that day 212 men, women and children in the immediate district were killed. Some of the dead women were found completely naked. In the course of investigation, a nominal roll of the dead has been compiled, and 'is complete with the exception of a few names where bodies could not be identified. Ages of the dead ranged from 1 year to 84 years. Approximately 100 houses were destroyed by fire; some of the victims were burned alive in their homes.

On December 16th, 1942, Keitel issued an order relating to the combatting of Partisans. This order was captured in Crete.( A copy, with English translation, is annexed hereto and marked 'A').

On June 17th and July lst, 1944, Kesselring issued orders on this subject. (Copies, with English translations, are annexed hereto and marked 'B' and 'C'). Document 'B' was found at Kesselring's H. Q., after the surrender of the German Forces, whilst Document 'C' was found amongst the records of the Ortskommandatur, Castiglione dei Popli, Nr. Bologna. Other evidence of the issue of this second order to German formations has been found.

A comparison of Documents 'A', 'B', and 'C' makes it clear that Kesselring's orders were in accordance with a policy laid down by the Supreme Command. Documents are held proving that this general policy was dictated to lower commands in the German Army in Italy.

Evidence has been found to show that a large number of the atrocities in Italy was committed by the Hermann Goering Parachute Panzer Division. Notable offenders also were l Parachute Division, 16 SS Panzer Grenadier Division and 114 Light Division.

The orders of the German Command were, made known to the local population in a series of notices which were exhibited in towns and villages throughout German-occupied Italy and were published in newspapers. (A specimen copy o f a typical Notice to the inhabitants of Covolo is annexed hereto and marked 'D'.)

In the cases on which reliable information is held, it is considered that a conservative estimate of the number of persons who met their deaths at the hands of the German soldiery, is more than 7,500 men, women and children ranging in years from infancy to extreme old age. In the Ardeatine Caves case in Rome, alone, 335 men were shot. Many other reports have not yet been substantiated, but it is certain that the total of innocent Italian civilians who were killed in such reprisals is very much greater than the number given above. --Molobo 20:00, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Comparative Ranks

There should be a page "Comparative ranks of Nazi Germany" or similar, mabe including paramilitary (SS, SA) ranks as well.

Wehrmacht Oath of Loyalty

"I swear by God this scared oath: I will render unconditional obedience to Adolf Hitler, the Führer of the German nation and people, Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces, and will be ready as a brave solider to risk my life at my time for this oath." 169.163.99.1 01:19, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The oath is also covered at Hitler oath. — JonRoma 04:07, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted the edit where you removed your IP address from the attribution I added earlier; all comments posted to a Wikipedia talk page should be signed. You can do this easily by typing four tildes (~~~~). Thank you! — JonRoma 07:58, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Proportion of the article / POV

It's very POV if you dedicate about 50 % of an article about an army to the crimes this army has or may have done. I hope some can bring more balance in to this article.

129.13.186.1 15:43, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's would also be POV for an encyclopedia to ignore the documented crimes of this army. I doubt that any army was ever wholly crime-free, but since the Wehrmacht was led by a criminal dictator, they have a disproportionate share of crimes on their record. Anyway, there are several ways to address the issue you cite:

Move the bulk of the content to a separate War crimes of the Wehrmacht article with a short summary paragraph remaining.
Add additional content about the Wehrmacht's non-criminal history, making the crime portion a smaller percentage of the total.

My personal leaning would be the second approach, as I find the overall detail about this army to be rather sparse. This may be so due to the Wehrmacht's history in armed conflict being described in the articles on its battles rather than here.

— JonRoma 17:10, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'll start a separate article for this topic, when I have time for it. But one thing I want to say: More than 18 million men served in the Wehrmacht and WWII was with no doubt the bloodiest war ever fought, a lot of crimes were committed by all sides, so it would be VERY surprising if there hadn't been crimes done by Wehrmacht personnel, too. But if you look at the articles about the US Army and more importantly when it comes to war crimes the Red Army you don't find much information about their war crimes, and no that does neither mean that they didn't commit any nor that the editors of those articles "just forgot" to mention them.

129.13.186.1 19:12, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Schutzundtrutz already created the article War crimes of the Wehrmacht and moved the content; I moved the references to the new page since they pertain more directly there. Further, I've reworded the remaining section here (and the lead paragraph in the new article) to be a little less mushy. Yes, I agree that other armies (including those of my home country) have committed war crimes, but to compare the crimes committed in the course of any war with some the most egregious crimes the Wehrmacht committed strikes me as historically inaccurate. At any rate, any nation's war crimes ought to be documented whenever and wherever they are of significant enough scale to deserve inclusion, but to say that "the other guys did things too" is just a bit much. — JonRoma 22:39, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Schutzundtrutz is me, since I had to create an account and log in to create a new article. What crimes of the Wehrmacht do you consider to be so egregious that they cannot be compared with the crimes of other armies during WWII? Furthermore I want to add that many things still stated in the new article are very inprecise and "mushy", too. Especially there is no indication that all these things were done by the Wehrmacht. But we should discuss this on the talk page of the new article. 129.13.186.1 23:38, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This seems an attempt to whitewash German history and hide Wehrmacht massive war crimes and war of extermination.Furthermore the explanation isn't credible as seen in this analysis:

http://www.ihtp.cnrs.fr/cih2gm/boehler_sydney.html The Dawn of “War of Extermination” – The Wehrmacht in Poland 1939

In the occupied East the German Wehrmacht since 1941 is said to have waged a “War of Extermination” against the civilian population – thus also participating in the Holocaust – and the mass murder of Soviet prisoners-of-war. Two German exhibitions and an avalanche of publications in the past were dedicated to this topic and presented the public with well known facts as well as with new results.

In Poland, these facts were known since the 1950ies. But Polish historians in the past have been puzzled by the fact that the “War of Extermination” allegedly only started in 1941: In Poland in autumn 1939, the Wehrmacht executed thousands of civilians which were suspected to participate in the fighting against the German troops, and German soldiers murdered a huge number of Polish prisoners-of-war and Jews.

Why did German soldiers committed atrocities against non-combatants from the first day of WW II on? Recent studies state, that the influence of Nazi ideology was crucial, since slaves and Jews were not seen as human beings, but as enemies of the Third Reich which must be treated harsh if necessary. Although the evidence of anti-Slavic and anti-Semitic prejudices in the war diaries, reports and letters of German soldiers during the “Polish Campaign” is glaringly, this explanation does not suffice: Beneath indoctrination before the attack and centuries-old prejudices, the nervousness and lack of experience of young soldiers during their first combat played an important role. The Polish population as a whole was suspected to participate in the fighting, and ruthless measures were taken to stop this alleged “partisan warfare” which was founded only in the imagination of the soldiers and didn’t have any correlation with reality. This phenomenon – the “franc-tireur fear” (“Freischärlerpsychose”) – could already be observed amongst German troops in Belgium in 1914. In the meantime, the Wehrmacht cooperated with the notorious Einsatzgruppen and helped to “clean” the new occupied territories removing all “undesirable Elements”.

The murder of thousand civilians under the pretext of having fought against the Wehrmacht was an integral part of the “War of Extermination.” Thus, on the battlefields of Poland in September 1939, WW I met WW II. The “Polish Campaign” was the missing link between common warfare and the “War of Extermination.”

--Molobo 01:45, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

User Molobo, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a Polish propaganda platform. -- Freiheitskämpfer 16:28, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This new publication is to be looked forward to

http://www.dhi.waw.pl/en/instytut/pracownicy/bohler/

Institute project "Auftakt zum Vernichtungskrieg. Die Wehrmacht in Polen 1939" (direction: Prof. Dr. Klaus Ziemer) --Molobo 01:43, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

POV

1.War Crimes of Wehrmacht are integral part of its history. 2.Removal of war crimes obscures the atrocious nature of Wehrmachts role in WW2. 3.The explanation is absurd and borders on whitewashing: Because the Nazi German political leadership cast World War II as a struggle for German survival and, in particular, described the struggle against the Soviet Union in the East to be a clash of ideologies Was survival the motiviation of murdering 1year old children by German soldiers in non-communist Poland in 1939 ? It never described the clash as only ideological-the clash was between Aryans and subhumans as seen in this quote: http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/ssnur1.htm The Reichsführer, with his penchant for medieval lore, envisioned a united aryan 'crusade', fighting to save old Europe from the 'Godless bolshevik hordes' and subhumans

I suggest merging back the section on war crimes and deleting the whitewashing quote that gives manipulated statements about the reasons. --Molobo 01:50, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Molobo, I think you are nit-picking because the words used by other contributors don't happen to coincide with your view.

You first state that the war crimes of the Wehrmacht are an integral part of its history and that "removal of [the war crimes section] obscures the atrocious nature of Wehrmacht's role in WW2". While one can indeed not write an honest appraisal of the Wehrmacht without discussing the most serious crimes, the "integral" point (in my view) is that the Wehrmacht fought at the behest of a criminal regime and under an evil supreme commander. While I think it's imperative that these acts be documented, I don't think it reasonable that the article be dominated by the war crimes to the exclusion of the other history of this armed force during its ten years of existence.

Your comment about "removal" of this section presumes some sort of conspiracy to obscure that crimes did exist. This conveniently ignores the fact that the Wehrmacht article had a section on War crimes that consisted of two paragraphs (now three — see below) giving an overview of these crimes and a link to the new page devoted entirely to those crimes. This separate page, in time, could be shaped by some volunteer to provide more detail. The exhibit Crimes of the Wehrmacht has additional material and documentation. At any rate, I believe a separate page is the best way to give the crimes the attention they deserve without the Wehrmacht page becoming 75 percent about its crimes and 25 percent about its structure, politics, and its record in battle. There's more to this armed force's history than the evil it committed.

I was the person who added the quote which you now claim is "whitewashing" the crimes of Nazi Germany. I am not an apologist for this detestable criminal regime. I am in fact one of the persons who contributed to the Wehrmacht's war crimes list before it became its own page. I took some of the material you posted to the Talk page, did some independent verification and then added that material to the War crimes section. I cleaned up some grammar, added additional data on the incidents you and other people have cited as well as additional material on other war crimes from other sources, and finally provided a series references that provide further documentation of the crimes committed by the Wehrmacht in the course of World War II.

These are hardly the act of a "whitewasher", and I think you would do well not to throw out that sort of accusation carelessly.

The word ideological referred not only to political ideology (capitalism vs. communism), but the whole racial ideology of the Nazis ("master race" vs. "subhumans"). Yes, this includes crimes in non-communist Poland from the very start on September 1, 1939 in addition to the battle against the Soviet Union that started two years later. It is sometimes not necessary to restate every historical fact explicitly in every article, but I have looked at the section and thought it beneficial to add a bit of background on the ideology that led to a distinguishable difference in the conduct of the war in the East vs. other theaters of battle.

I did not think the {{totallydisputed}} tag was justified, but it is even less justified with my recent edit. This edit should make clear that the Nazi ideology not only discriminated on a political basis but on an racial basis. Accordingly I am removing that tag. Though I disagree with your proposal to re-merge the War crimes of the Wehrmacht page, I will leave it there until a consensus has formed and will comment on that proposal below. Regards. — JonRoma 08:32, 3 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merge

The article should be merged with Wehrmacht. Reasons: 1.War Crimes of Wehrmacht are integral part of its history. 2.Removal of war crimes obscures the atrocious nature of Wehrmachts role in WW2. 3.The massive war crimes of Wehrmacht overshadow every other possible activity of the organisation. --Molobo 02:23, 2 February 2006 (UTC) Ĉ[reply]

Oppose.

As I have indicated in POV above, the documented crimes of this armed forces are dealt with adequately in a section giving an overview of these crimes along with a link to a separate page devoted entirely to these crimes giving more detail. If the crimes could be described in a few paragraphs, they would be more appropriate inline, but they were unfortunately significant enough to require more in-depth treatment. Given that this article is rather short on detail about its history, personnel and rank structure — to say nothing of the Wehrmacht's stature as one of the most significant armed forces in the history of world conflict.

An article composed 75 percent of war crime citations and 25 percent of skimpy material on the rest of the organization's history is not balanced. To impose balance in the absence of newly-provided material added to the skimpy sections would require pruning of the war crimes section to be smaller, and I would view that as equally unacceptable in terms of both neutrality and historical honesty. Having the articles separate does not in any way obscure these crimes, it simply allows some degree of balance in the Wehrmacht article.

The crimes can be and are exposed with the rest of the Wehrmacht's history in the main article, and the crimes can be given the attention they deserve in the War crimes of the Wehrmacht article. — JonRoma 08:53, 3 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

--Molobo 09:18, 3 February 2006 (UTC) An article composed 75 percent of war crime citations and 25 percent of skimpy material on the rest of the organization's history is not balanced. As I have indicated in POV above, the documented crimes of this armed forces are dealt with adequately in a section giving an overview of these crimes along with a link to a separate page devoted entirely to these crimes giving more detail. Wehrmacht, unlike other Armed forces was the one of the direct tools of the most atrocious genocides in human history, and as such its war crimes should be a direct part of its description.I would agree with seperate article if it was in-depth-right now the article on war crimes has only few incidents, and doesn't describe them even in depth. What exists in the article about Wehrmacht's war crimes should be just a note on article on Wehrmacht, with more in depth analysis made in seperate article. Also post war views are absent from the main article and they are essential-the refusal to accept Wehrmacht as organisation comitting atrocities is remarkable and as such we should put information about the reasons why the Wehrmacht was whitewashed from its history in Germany in the main article.If you feel the other sections are too short, feel to expand them, rather then removing the content that is more detailed. --Molobo 09:18, 3 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As long as the main article has a comprehensive summary of the crimes (I am sure Molobo is capable of preparing one), I see no problem with having a dedicated subarticle. The topic is definetly notable and sooner or later such a split would be necessary, even if it is not today.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 16:44, 3 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If we would make a short summary with links to Wehrmacht's war crimes with short description of the nature of the war crime, while the larger description in the other article I could agree to that. However I would insist on adding information about Postwar views on Wehrmacht as it is a serious issue in relation to the subject. --Molobo 16:54, 3 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose.

It's not sensible to merge everything that has to do with the Wehrmacht into one article. Otherwise we would have to merge the articles of all the campaigns the Wehrmacht participated in (although of course they should be mentioned in this article) and all the other articles related to the Wehrmacht into this article, too and that would make the article very very long. -- Freiheitskämpfer 16:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose.

To merge the main article on the Wehrmacht with the "War Crimes of the Wehrmacht" article would implicitly argue that the German army of 1935-45 is significant ONLY because of the crimes it committed during WWII. This, of course, is contrafactual. Regardless of methods, excesses, and Fuehrerbefels executed by the Wehrmacht (such as the "Commissar Order" and the "Bullet Decree"), the Wehrmacht as a fighting force in WWII is highly significant -- just ask Poland, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Greece, Russia, etc. I am NOT diminishing the importance of the Wehrmacht's crimes -- which were both numerous and sickening -- but they deserve separate treatment, in articles concerning the Holocaust, the Nazi regime, WWII, etc. The military history of WWII must be afforded separate treatment and, therefore, one of the major players in that history, the Wehrmacht, must also be afforded separate treatment. That said, I agree that the history (origins) and WWII campaigns of the Wehrmacht should be expanded. Ayed 19:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose.

The reason for merger is stated that the War Cimes of the Wehrmacht outshadow everything else. To me this is nonsense, the courts established in the 40's the Wehrmacht wasn't a criminal organization and if that's not recognized than you might as well say the SS and Nazi's aren't illegal as the courts said they were, you can't have your cake and eat it too. The Wehrmacht did carry out war crimes but not on mass and the average soldier wouldn't have seen any and if they did it was usually a SS act. A few months ago there was a front page article in the paper here about how the Canadian soldiers commited mass war crimes in France during WW2, it happens in way but with an army of millions and only a few war crimes happening as a resault of it (not it's allies like the Waffen-SS) this does not "out shaddow" it's history. I've talked to a couple of Holocaust survivors and they have nothing bad to say about the Wehrmacht and they lived through the worst of WW2.

Oppose, as per everyone else except Molobo. Having two articles is perfectly in line with usual practice on Wikipedia. Especially in the 1950s and 1960s, conservative circles in Germany tried to whitewash the Wehrmacht's image by putting the blame for any war crimes squarely on the SS and other non-Wehrmacht units. This whitewashed image has long been revised, it is generally accepted knowledge that the Wehrmacht committed war crimes, both in interaction with the SS and on its own. However, saying that "Wehrmacht" and "war crimes" are not mutually exclusive does not justify saying that these were identical concepts. Molobo's proposal is another attempt to prove his usual point ("Wehrmacht = criminals", or even "Germans = criminals"), and thus in clear violation of a basic editing rule. --Thorsten1 10:24, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Molobo's edits

Molobo: I would appreciate it if you could shed some lights on the motivation behind these edits of yours: [1] and [2]. Apart from one sentence ("Such views were reinforced by traditional feelings and negative stereotypes against Jews and Slavic people that existed in German society before Nazi Reich came to being[3]."), they just seem to rephrase things that were already in the article before, in less than correct English. That sentence raises a lot of questions instead of clarifying things. It makes a statement that is ultimately neither verifyable nor falsifyable. Most importantly, it forms a digression in this article, which is about Wehrmacht, not German society at large.

Further, your statements in the edit summaries ("avoid making impression Germany was made out of Hitler" and "Avoided a bit of whitewashing that tried to avoid mentioning German state in favour of blaming a single person") don't make much sense. It is a commonly known fact that Hitler's views and those of the Nazi Party (which totally dominated the state apparatus) were quite identical. Therefore, to say that something was "Hitler's view" does not imply that it was "Hitler's and nobody else's view"; rather, it means that it was the view of everyone in any relevant political position. Your edit is understandable only to those who know that in Poland, it is currently fashionable to believe that "the Germans" wish to "whitewash" themselves by putting all the blame on Hitler. To anyone who is not aware of this domestic Polish media fashion, your edits must remain mysterious. Oh, and quite apart from that, it is sociologically incorrect to attribute an opinion to the "state". States do not have opinions; political actors have them. --Thorsten1 23:32, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Molobo: 48 hours have passed and in spite of several edits elsewhere you have not replied to the above objections. Is it beneath your dignity to reply, is there a special rule that exempts you from having to explain the rationale behind your edits? Again, I encourage you to support your edits with arguments. If you decide to do so, please do so in your own words - no bulk pasting of vaguely related text from other websites, please. --Thorsten1 22:55, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You didn't post any questions Thorsten, just your views of Polish media and me.

--Molobo 23:01, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I posted very specific objections to very specific edits and edit summaries made by you. Do not try to distract. You have the chance to relate to what I said and look for a compromise. If you do not use this chance, you'll have no moral right to object to changes of your wordings. --Thorsten1 23:17, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Could you give a pointed list of your objections so I would know what do you consider inaccurate in the article ?

--Molobo 23:19, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I certainly could, but what for, when the issues are addressed in the first paragraph of this section? --Thorsten1 23:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any specific issues, since you say you could, then please I welcome you to do so for better understanting of terms you dispute.

--Molobo 01:17, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I, too, would like it if you gave a more extensive elaboration of your edits. If you really can't read a block of text, I'll bullet it out for you.

No one is arguing that Hitler alone of all Germans held these beliefs. He was elected and retained a great deal of support until his death, including control of the 'german state,' which seems to be your concern.

Then it is no problem to write German state then.It will also avoid any misinterpertation. --Molobo 12:29, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your edit summaries for these edits are somewhat cryptic. Perhaps if you explained at greater length, it would be easier to understand your point of view in making these edits.

The context of your contributions is difficult to understand for the majority of Wikipedians, that is, those who do not know the current common view of Germany in WWII held in Poland. Perhaps another article is needed in which this can be discussed.

I am not writing about anything related to perception of German actions in Poland. If you wish to write such article be my guest. --Molobo 12:29, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

States cannot hold opinions, though they do have policy. Hitler set most policy for the German Reich, so it is equivalent to say "Hitler thought" and "The German state thought" unless you really mean Goering or Himmler or whoever thought (and if Hitler didn't agree, they'd probably be pretty quiet about that). We cannot assume that everyone who was nominally a part of that state agreed with its official policy. That is not true of states today and it is unlikely to have been true then.

Good I will write that the German state had official policy. --Molobo 12:29, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your statement about traditional beliefs is POV. Personally, I've read 'Hitler's Willing Executioners,' and I find Goldhagen's thesis compelling in places, but as you will see from Daniel Goldhagen this is not a universal view. As such it's a debate that doesn't properly belong on this page. Perhaps War Crimes of the Wehrmacht might be a better place, though I'd rather see it as part of s discussion on the Holocaust in general with a link from WCotW, since as Thorsten points out it's not a statement about the Wehrmacht, or of special relevance to the Wehrmacht, but one about German society generally.

Antipolish and antisemitic sentiment and prejudices in pre-Nazi Germany are well documented. I am not using Godlhangen but Boehler. --Molobo 12:29, 14 February 2006 (UTC) As an aside, Thorsten, the issue isn't that isn't not verifyable or falsifiable. Neither are many other statements found on the great 'pedia. But it's just dropped in as fact rather than presented as a competing theory among others, which is NPOV, and it doesn't belong on this page. Zabieru 06:49, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Zabieru: Thanks for "bulleting out" my remarks and adding more of your own opinion, which almost entirely coincides with my own. I agree with your paragraph on Goldhagen. Let's see if Molobo understands your version better than mine... Just to clarify, the hypothesis that has come to be identified with Goldhagen (although it is really much older and more widespread) is indeed neither verifiable nor falsifiable. One can only list arguments pro and con. This, of course, is true of most things outside the exact sciences. However, there are some interpretations which have gained almost universal acceptance. My concern is that Molobo presents as a "fact" something that is really a interpretation of facts, which is far from being universally accepted; secondly, that this interpretation, universally accepted or not, is out of place here per the reasons you elucidated. --Thorsten1 16:45, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A comment for the record: In spite of dozens of edits elsewhere, Molobo sees it fit to ignore my and Zabieru's objections. --Thorsten1 10:05, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]