Talk:Motherfucker
Rather than a "see also", probably should just be a redirect. Also, isn't it usually a compound word (motherfucker)? Hmm, that appears to be a redirect to incest which doesn't match the common use of the word at all. --Brion 21:43 Jan 10, 2003 (UTC)
Just redirect it to fuck and mention that this is often used in the same context. -- Modemac
Merriam-Webster dates this term to 1952. This is significantly past the period of time implied by the article's notion that the term came about as a result of slave owners raping slave women. Is there any actual source for this information? --Michael 05:37 8 Jun 2003 (UTC)
- I don't know anything about the supposed origin of the term in slavery, but it certainly predates 1952 (although perhaps not in print). One anecdotal example was found by a friend who was researching old New Orleans police records concerning bars where music was played. Something along the line of in the late 1910s a man brought to court for stabbing someone told the judge that he had to stab the other guy, because of what the other guy had called him. The judge asked "what did he call you?" "He called me a motherf-----". --Infrogmation 16:06 8 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Moved:
- Although often thought to relate to the widely condemned biological and cultural incest taboo, its origins are to be found in North American slavery. Here the sexual abuse of enslaved women often led to pregnancy. However the offspring were often enslaved like their mothers. Rather than refer to the man who impregnated their mother as father, the term motherfucker was often prefered. Similar grammatical forms are found in other african-english expressions such as babymother and babyfather.
I agree with Michael here. It's not the age of the term that's the problem, (as has been said, "Oedipus was the first motherfucker" <g>)it's this supposed derivation of it that's highly unlikely when you think about it. I'd like to see a source before it's put back. - Hephaestos
The song you quote from the Bloodhound Gang is actually a parody of a Prodigy song. wouldnt it be mroe apropriate to use the line from the original song? Vroman 23:41 16 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Great article, the grammer sings. --ShaunMacPherson 05:11, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The quote from the Bloodhound Gang seems a bit out of place. Scores of people have used the word to refer to just about anything under the sun, long before the members of that band were born. A more legitimate cultural reference would be better.
Could someone edit in how the term "Mofo" came into being? I don't see how theres an 'O' after the 'F', when F!@#ers second letter is 'U'.
Since the term is indisputedly African-American in origin, did Wikipedia consult any of us?
It's too bad many "scholarly" folk have a tendency to pontificate on a subject, presuming a certain level of knowledge on the matter, without having once bothered to consult the source. My experience has been that white folks are especially good at this when the subject of discussion is black folks and black culture.
They know it all.
Wikipedia: "In spite of overuse, the term is widely considered highly insulting when used in earnest. In recent years, 'motherfucker' is increasingly being used to describe inanimate objects, dating back to early hip hop culture."
Amusing. Any black person would have told Wikipedia’s etymological experts the use of “motherfucker” in this fashion predates hip-hop by several decades.
Giving credit where credit is due, however, Wikipedia's tracing of the term back to slavery appears entirely plausible/probable. It is clear "motherfucker" is African-American in origin. It is merely another fine example of blacks crafting, bending the language to make it our own. Highly conscious of the fact that the commission of physical violence against a white man or his property (other black folks) could result in the most draconian punishment, bondsmen often used language as a weapon of choice. Verbal aggression, "woofin'," "signifyin'," playing "the dozens" (a reference to the fact that slaves past their prime, who were aged or plain worn out from back-breaking labor, were sold by the dozen) became a means of survival, of safely venting hostility, as well as a sometimes raucous pastime.
"Motherfucker" -- a word accusatory of, perhaps, the most heinous of universal taboos -- is elegant in its simplicity, exquisitely cutting, powerfully destructive. Wikipedia’s explanation grounded in the sexual abuse and exploitation of African bondswomen seems plausible, but is far too facile. The venom of it, its viciousness and obvious contempt tells me the target of such vitriol was even closer to home. White folks were white folks. They were godless and brutal and regarded us as subhuman. We EXPECTED them to behave as they did. Did we despise them? Certainly.
But the worst of black fury was directed inward, at “race traitors” and those who disgraced members of the group – people of whom we expected better. One must understand the communal consciousness of African bondsmen and women. This awareness was in some respects a product of their shared oppression. But it was also an element central to the traditions from whence they came. In traditional African societies, the dignity and honor of the family, tribe/nation was essential to the health, survival and spiritual well-being of the individual as well as the collective.
Because the institution of slavery so muddled bloodlines and tore apart family groupings, filial bonds often were in question or completely unpresumed/unknown. While likely relatively infrequent, closely related blacks unknowingly engaging in incestuous relationships would not have been unheard of. Family members often were sold to neighboring plantations and, depending on the age of the slave, kinship knowledge easily could be lost within even a generation.
"Motherfucker" was most certainly NOT used (contrary to the silly assertion of the Wikipedia listing) by the offspring of white rapists as a "preferred" term for "father." Such casual vulgarity would not have been practiced or tolerated in slave society. Like most expletives, "motherfucker" likely was then (as it is, still) used in a pejorative, figural sense, rather than in a literally descriptive one.
Nor is there any linguistic connection structurally between "motherfucker" and such current African-American expressions as "babyfather" or "babymama." Such a presumption demonstrates a lack of even a rudimentary understanding of the evolution of what is in some circles called "Black English" or "Ebonics," and does not hold up to even casual scrutiny. Linguistically, "motherfucker" is no different in structure from "cocksucker" or, for that matter, "bricklayer" or "sharecropper." Instead, it is far more plausible "motherfucker" referred to those unfortunate black men who, unaware of their lineage, had slept with their mothers or other close relations.
Further, "motherfucker" may not be contemporaneous with slavery at all, even though it seems clear its origins are rooted in that despicable institution. The term could have originated after slavery, when, in the chaos and confusion following Emancipation, millions of black folks struck out on the open road, forming new communities and, with "play" relations, kinship bonds of choice beyond known or presumed bloodlines.
"Motherfucker" -- its ubiquitousness in today's society has desensitized many of us to its power. But back in the day, it was a fightin`, cuttin`, shootin`, bleedin` word.
In a world where fathers knew not their daughters, nor sons their mothers, it was the ultimate nightmare, the ultimate shame, the ultimate insult -- the Oedipal curse as curse word.
-- deeceevoice, April 30, 2004
I hope you arnt one of those reparation people.
How the hell did reparations get into this? Frank-speak on the history of African-Americans in this nation in an APPROPRIATE context needn't be construed as an open invitation for guilt-ridden, defensive or well-meaning white folks to engage in Joycean, stream-of-consciousness comments or questions on matters of race and racism, generally -- or to confess their personal life philosophies. Focus, people! The subject under discussion here is "motherfucker." And lighten up, dammit! -- deeceevoice, June 8, 2004
You're curious about the change in a single letter?
"Could someone edit in how the term 'Mofo' came into being? I don't see how theres an 'O' after the 'F', when F!@#ers second letter is 'U'."
The changing of a single letter over time is simply that and is a trivial thing. In some local dialects, "street" has become "skreet" or "skree'."
Word play is part of the culture. It's all just not that serious. Considering jazz, scat and Snoop Dogg's ghetto esperanto, you're wondering about the bending of a single vowel? Call it spontaneous mutation. Call it subversion. Call it improvisation.
Or, better yet, don't.
Loosen up. You'll live longer. :-p
-- deeceevoice, April 30, 2004
First off, ghetto esperanto?! Thats just weird man
Secondly, the main reason i posted this is because i had that word stuck in my head
Thirdly, the words you just mentioned were all due to there similarities to other sounds. 'O' is such a different sound then 'U', that i think a logical train of developement is necessary (then again, maybe im just a suburban white boy)
- Fix the article then. It's open for edit. What you've written makes intuitive sense, but a book reference would help. - Hephaestos|§ 04:19, 31 May 2004 (UTC)
Day-um. No offense intended, "just a suburban white boy" -- just a little levity. It really ISN'T that serious. Just a little vowel bending. IMO, relatively trivial. deeceevoice - June 8, 2004