Controversial subject improvement

Controversial subject improvement This subject as well as others that are so laden with emotional opinion ought to be subject to a different standard for editing, one that slowed down the process and subjected it to more community review. --Unsigned edit by 4.131.222.208 10:09, 27 December 2005

Immigration by Region

U.S. Immigration Law

Source on 9/11 perpetrators

What's the source on the 9/11 perpetrators? Two of them were granted visa extensions after their deaths, so they couldn't have been illegal when they committed their act. All were legally admitted as far as I know, but what's the source that all their visas expired? Bruxism 03:22, 22 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That may be partly my fault as my re-write may have introduced an inaccuracy. Atta was on an expired visa, but I am not certain of the others. Ah, I think this sums it up: "Two hijackers could have been denied admission at the port on entry based on violations of immigration rules governing terms of admission. Three hijackers violated the immigration laws after entry, one by failing to enroll in school as declared, and two by overstays of their terms of admission." Prepared Statement of Vice Chair Lee Hamilton and Commissioner Slade Gorton of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States I'll correct it. Thanks for catching it. Cheers, -Willmcw 05:32, 22 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

USA misinformation corrected

I cleaned up the US section and dropped POV and incorrect information (such as the false statement there ever was a quota for Jews), and added an explanation for restrictionism. Rjensen 09:27, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Good work. That's a nice little summary of U.S. immigration history. I only quibble with the tone of this text:

(supposedly for a future court date, but none ever show up that day.)

because it sounds like hyperbole. -Willmcw 10:43, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! The debate is underway right now (late 2005) about the capture and release policy, and all the news stories report that the people who get released do not return to court. So it may sound exaggerated but I think it's exactly correct. Rjensen 18:49, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it's not "exactly correct," and neither is it sourced. Prisons around the country are filled with hundreds, if not thousands of people, who have been detained at airports and seaports for entering without legal documents. This has been the case since detention was mandated by federal law in 1996. Ditto the passage about undocumented parents of U.S. citizens not being deported. It happens all the time. In fact the law as it now stands requires deportation unless the parent can prove serious harm to a U.S. citizen caused by the deportation, and the burden of proof is on the claimant, not the government. Bruxism 20:52, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

umm I am going to remove "Restricting immigration in the United States has been driven foremost by the fear the immigrants will bring alien political values that will disrupt or dilute American values, second by nativism or general fear of strangers", as It does not have any fact to back it up, it applies that americans feel that immigrants are degrading our values and implies that we are afraid of immigrants. Umm this cant possibly be true in a country were are political views and values were brought here by immigrants! Mac Domhnaill 02:49, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Oh I think it better go back in. The questions is WHY there is opposition to immigration. The points are that there is a fear of strangers and that the immigrants will bring in false values. Historians have pointed this out over an over again, especially John Higham. Wiki does not take sides: it does not say whether these 4 arguments are true or not. It says these 4 arguments have in fact motivated opposition, as it true in 2005, in 1920, in 1854, Rjensen 09:36, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree with Rjensen here. The 1920s historical example is particularly relevant. The red scare led to the execution of Sacco and Vanzetti, anti-immigrant sentiment (particularly against Italians, Russians, and others peceived of supporting anarchism and the Bolsheviks), and to the deportation of Emma Goldman and others. Twenty years earlier, there were also round-ups of immigrants, including Goldman, after the assassination of William McKinley by an anarchist. Bruxism 19:31, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

U.S. Immigration Law

What Is Considered An Illegal Activity Under Immigration Law?

Here are some examples of the most common violations of United States Immigration laws:

Examples:

(This is not a complete list of violations.)

filing false statements on applications or petitions
making a false claim that you are a United States citizen
making, altering or using counterfeit immigration documents
making, altering or using counterfeit documents to support immigration applications or petitions
failing to report the arrival of illegal aliens
assisting or encouraging aliens to come to the United States in violation of the law
harboring an illegal alien
knowingly employing aliens who do not have permission to work in the United States
recruiting or referring for a fee aliens who do not have permission to work in the United States
failing to complete and maintain immigration Form I-9 for all new employees, whether citizens or aliens
failing to depart the United States when ordered removed (deported)
entering or attempting to enter the United States at a time or place which is not authorized
attempting to enter the United States by misrepresenting (lying about) material facts
entering into a marriage to circumvent the immigration laws
entering or attempting to enter the United States without permission after having been removed (deported)
assisting an alien to enter the United States for prostitution or other immoral purposes

Where Can I Find the Law?

Where Can I Find the Law?

The Immigration and Nationality Act is a law that governs the admission of all people to the United States. For the parts of the law concerning illegal immigration activities, please see INA § 212, INA § 235, INA § 271, INA § 272, INA § 273, INA § 274, INA § 274A, INA § 274C, INA § 275, INA § 277, and INA § 278.

Report Suspected Illegal Alien Activity

How Can I Report Suspected Illegal Alien Activity or a Suspected Illegal Alien?

Each immigration field office has a specific process for reporting suspected illegal alien activity. You should first decide where the suspected illegal alien activity or illegal alien is located. Our offices have areas of jurisdiction that are generally determined by state boundaries. The three immigration related agencies -- U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, and U.S. Customs and Border Protection -- have web sites where you can find immigration information. They are: uscis.gov, ice.gov, and cbp.gov. All three are accessible from the Department of Homeland Security web site -- dhs.gov. --Unsigned edit by 71.116.176.231 14:34, 28 December 2005

Illegal immigration in Europe

There really should be a section on illegal immigration in Europe, where it is probably a more heated political issue than it is in the United States (where both main parties generally seem content with the status quo). Funnyhat 19:03, 20 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Immigration and India

India has the largest number of illegal immigrants in the world. More than 20 million Bangladeshis. deeptrivia (talk) 02:23, 29 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

- Do you have a link we can use to develop that? We need more info in this article about illegal immigration around the world. Thanks, -Will Beback 02:51, 29 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

- - Here are some links:

http://india.indymedia.org/en/2003/01/2730.shtml

http://www.eldis.org/static/DOC15800.htm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,25689-1961065,00.html

http://www.saag.org/%5Cpapers14%5Cpaper1330.html

http://www.saag.org/papers7/paper632.html

http://www.whatisindia.com/issues/povillim

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0304/p07s01-wosc.html

Basically I just googled "bangladesh immigrants india" and posted some links. Will post better ones when I find them. deeptrivia (talk) 04:27, 29 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Editorial Comments

Explanation needed

A third category is composed by those who, even though they are born in the country of residence, become "illegal immigrants" at majority (18 years old or more). The status of "illegal immigrant" can also be imposed because of bureaucratic reasons - someone being neither "expulsable", law protecting it from any sort of expulsion, nor "regularizable", his situation can't be regularized and he can't be nationalized either (this can happen to refugees, or sick people who, under specific laws, may be allowed to stay in a country without being given official documents)

How does one become an immigrant (illegal or otherwise) in one's country of birth? -Will Beback 00:44, 19 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's fairly easy actually. Many countries do not award citizenship based on location of birth but rather add other restrictions like citizenship of one or both parents. In other words, an individual born in a country to two foreign parents (e.g. foreigners on work visa) does not necessarily receive the citizenship of the country in which the individual is born.sebmol 02:52, 19 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know about other countries, but I know that in France this is fairly common - it was supposedly one of the causes of the French riots of 2005. I recall that in some French cities, the proportion of the population who are not legal citizens approaches or exceeds 50% - but don't put that in the article, as it hasn't been verified. I just wanted to give some idea of context. - Terraxos, 23:54, 23 January 2006

OK, this is partly semantic. Being an "illegal immigrant" means that one immigated illegally. Non-citizen or undocumented residents are a different matter. But we can't call someone who has never moved an "immigrant." -Will Beback 00:16, 24 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on Xenophobia

mexican mantra All of the laws should be enforced equally, regardless of race, religion, and/or national origin. That is with the exception of mexicans, and they should be above the law and exempt from the law. And the only purpose that a tonto gringo serves is to pay taxes to support the superior and noble mexican.

Anyone who disagrees with this philosophy is a Xenophobic Racist.

Pancho --Unsigned edit by 71.116.148.75 23:29, 26 December 2005

Removal

I have removed the following chunks of text

"Crossing the border without papers is not a felony but only a misdemeanor (that is, a crime punishable by a term of imprisonment not to exceed one year). Mexicans who are caught illegally crossing the border are fingerprinted and immediately returned, unless they are a repeat offender, in which case they may be criminally prosecuted. The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 (IRCA) made the hiring of an illegal alien an offense for the first time. American businesses have hired well over 10 million illegal aliens per year. (There is always heavy turnover in low-skilled jobs.) Enforcement has been very lax due to the efforts of powerful lobbyists such as the Chamber of Commerce, which argues the labor is needed by the American economy. Some major companies have occasionally been found to use undocumented workers. Tyson Foods was accused of actively importing illegal labor for its chicken packing plants, but a jury in Chattanooga, Tennessee resoundingly acquitted the company after evidence was presented that it went beyond mandated government requirements in demanding documentation for its employees. And Wal-Mart was accused of using illegal janitorial workers, though it claimed they were hired by a subcontractor without company knowledge. Philippe Kahn, who wanted to stay in the United States, created the successful computer software company Borland International without proper legal status. During his 2003 campaign for California governor, it was alleged that Arnold Schwarzenegger had violated his visa by working without a permit in the 1970s; he vehemently denied the charge and produced his documents. The employment by prominent individuals of persons without work permits has been an occasional issue in politics. Linda Chavez, Zoe Baird, and Tom Tancredo are among those accused of hiring illegal aliens, the resulting scandals sometimes being dubbed "Nannygate". Many or most illegals, of course, commit other federal offenses by accepting wages without withholding on "day laborer jobs" with millions of such transactions occuring annually, or by purchasing fake documents such as Social Security cards, birth certificates and driver's licenses, and many use fake social security numbers (knowing they will never see the money that they extra-legally pay into Social Security.) In addition to supplying cheap labor to American businesses, and day laborer services to individuals and families, illegal aliens also supply a significant quantity of cocaine, heroin, methamphetamine and, of course, marijuana, to the illegal American drug trade. Many experts estimate that over 25% of all major narcotics traffickers in the United States are illegal aliens." 18:40, 1 January 2006 67.124.195.107

"Irridentism, the operative "poly-sci" word, related to U.S. - Mexico Border Issues, is almost unknown by press,& public

Most nations located on a border between one cultural region and another quite different cultural region, tend to see illegal immigrants from that culturally different country to be among the least welcome, should they come in very large numbers. If they come illegally, and outnumber all other immigrants 2 to 1, this threatens by their very presence, the cultural identity of the counrty entered. This is usually seen as a "non-combat" form of invasion. Mexico's revolutionary hero, Pancho Villa, did in fact, invade the State of New Mexico in 1916, and killed a number of Americans. American Immigrant U.S. families from all other parts of the world must wait 5 to 10 years to allow a son or daughter to join their U.S. citizen parents. With world wide immigration, the U.S, will remain a "melting pot" english speaking culture. With mostly Mexican immigration, U.S. will become a cultural mixture of the two nations in all possible ways over the next 100 years. So goes the arguement of the out-spoken anti-illegal community on Mexico-U.S. Irridentism. In balance, it should be noted that Mexico sees the massive illegal entry from Central America in "irridentist" terms from their own perspective. "Illegals" are treated with little compassion, and are promply ejected by authorities." 2 January 2006 Nativeborncal

This information is pejorative and misleading, not to mention unsourced. In future please discuss major changes on the talk page prior to making them. Natgoo 12:40, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

illegal immigration in the US

I removed the statement at the end of the paragraph about illegal immigration in the US, ", as well as covering those who are left undeported due to the citizenship of their children.". It is blatantly wrong and unsupported either by examples or legal cites. I am a clerk at a California Immigration Court of the Executive Office of Immigration Review and, although it is definitely not to my liking, my office orders the removal (deportation) of illegal aliens with US Citizen children almost every day. Very often the children are removed with their parents. There are cases even where a single alien parent does not have a sole custody over the child(ren) and since the US Citizen parent is nowhere to be found to take care of or to allow the departure of his/her minor children, the children are placed in foster care for an indefinite period of time.

--Emcho 10:11, 28 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merger

I propose that Illegal immigrant is merged with this article. They both contain similar information and one should redirect to the other. I suggest 'immigration' as the base article as it is the name of the subject rather than terminology such as 'immigrant'. --195.92.67.208 23:54, 23 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

agreed, but dont that you suggest Illegal immigration as the base? --Herzog 02:11, 6 December 2005

It's a tough one. Immigration might be the less POV term, because it describes the act as illegal rather than the person. And whether or not a person is illegal, or has committed an illegal act, depends on where you stand. (Just ask the Native Americans, or Australian Aborigines.) In fact, "extra"-legal would be a more neutral, accurate term, since it describes something happening outside the law, and not necessarily in violation of it (and the latter part is at the crux of much of the legal conflict arising from such situations - this is not splitting hairs, as under the Geneva Conventions, a political refugee who crosses a border without inspection to escape persecution, as from, say, Nazi Germany, is not considered to have done so illegally). Anthropologists and sociologists are increasingly using the term irregular migration, which is also less value-laden. The problem is, unless we do lots of re-directs, the term people are going to use as their search term will often be "illegal," which has become the dominant term in the popular media, at least in the U.S. Bruxism 07:35, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I see nothing wrong with merging the two, as they are inseparable is some sense: you can't have illegal immigrants if there is no such thing as illegal immigration. The former is derivative of the later. But while legal precision can always insert a level of complication, avoiding the term altogether is fundamentally dishonest. Countries have laws limiting how and who may immigrate and regardless of how you feel about those laws, they do exist. This is true even if widely ignored both by those charged with enforcing them and therefore, unsurprisingly, by those who desire to do other than the law permits. That would then constitute a violation of the law.

And while the escaping persecution example could set up a conflict between international law and national law, it remains possible to violate one without the other. Most countries including the United State have provisions for claiming asylum in which case there is no inherent conflict as long as the country’s law interprets the situation in a way that international law would.

As for the terms used by anthropologists and sociologists being less value laden, it is just as plausible to argue that they are selected because of their own value system and hence laden with that worldview.

--Unsigned edit by 4.131.219.6622:32, 26 December 2005

Definition of Words

"Those 'undocumented' are actually highly documented with fraudulent documents our government readily accepts."

"Calling an illegal alien an undocumented immigrant is like calling a burglar an uninvited house guest." ( Illegal Aliens.US)

What part of "illegal immigrant" is derogatory? It is fairly accurate and unbiased term to describe somebody who has crossed any national border illegally. Honestly, the term "illegal alien" makes them sound as though they are from another species, and should be considered derogatory! The term "undocumented immigrant" can be used to describe an immigrant who has forgotten to renew their legal documentation, and as previously stated, is indirect and broad.

Of course, the term of "illegal immigration" is simply an opinion, as is the monicker "undocumented immigrant", just as racial issues come in opinions (it might not appeal to all audiences).

Also, to more directly refute the term "illegal alien", if you look up the word "alien", you'll find a description such as "a person from another nation, territory, or governized landscape". Well, it's evident that they're not from here, so in a sense, it's redundant, while the expression "undocumented immigrant" and "illegal immigrant" are oxymorons, because an immigrant particularly describes one who has come from another country to legally reside in another, and is synonymous with terms such as "renewed citizen" (whatever that means). So again, it's all about definition of words.

the word "illegal" strongly suggests the person is a criminal-- However in America you are presumed innocent and not "illegal" until a court finds you guilty--which is rarely the case for these folks. They have been found guilt by a judge and jury on talk radio. Rjensen 01:52, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

let's remember that this article is international in scope. I'm going to remove the stray mentions of the U.S. As for the other points, I'm not aware of where the definition of immigrant necessarily implies "legal". -Will Beback 04:50, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A little off context there, Will. Let's take selling heroin for example. Of course the person selling heroin is innocent until proven guilty, however, the act of selling heroin is illegal, as is the fashion in which many of these "folks" are coming into our country is illegal. We're debating over the term "illegal immigration", not "illegal immigrant". Yet you're correct about the international in scope.
- Seeding 80 miles an hour is exactly as illegal (both misdemeanors) Let us know if you are yourself innocent. Using heroin (felony) versus speeding proves a nativism as well as ignorance of the law, I used to live near the state line and I can testify that LOTS of people entered the state while speeding illegally. The Mexicans of course were legal before 1965. It was a loophole (or noose?) in the law that no one noticed at the time that changed it. Rjensen 06:40, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - OK, so we have illegal speeding and illegal immigration. What could be a more straight-forward application of the term 'illegal' than that? How could applying the term 'illegal' to either of these activities be considered anything but a simple and concisely descriptive statement of fact? – Doug Bell ^{talk•contrib} 07:13, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

my point is that when we say "illegal" people think of heroin not speeding--just look at the above discussion! that means it's a heavily loaded POV term used in very HOT political debates. It's not a Wiki-neutral term Rjensen 07:55, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My point is that there is nothing POV about the term illegal in this context—it is completely neutral. Immigration is not heroin and it is not speeding, so thinking of either of these is of little use, and I doubt a serious concern. The terms "illegal immigrant" and "illegal alien" are less concise as it is the act not the person that is illegal. The euphemisms "undocumented immigrant" and "undocumented worker" are neither concise nor accurately descriptive. If you have to pick one of these terms as NPOV, illegal immigration is the clear choice. – Doug Bell ^{talk•contrib} 08:19, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

But it is indeed a serious concern in the US and other countries and the choice of "illegal" is deliberately designed to inflame the debate. The term is red-hot POV and has to be flagged as such. Rjensen 08:23, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I respectfully disagree. The term "illegal immigration" was a simple statement of fact used for a long time—the terminology did not become an issue until people with a clear POV attempted to replace the simple descriptive term with undescriptive euphemisms such as "undocumented" intended to obscure the fact that the activity was against the law and thereby legitimize it. Only at that point did the term become "red hot", but it is the euphemistic terms that carry the POV. Illegal immigration is the most neutral and accurate term, and only "red hot" if viewed through a non-neutral POV. – Doug Bell ^{talk•contrib} 08:40, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What are we discussing here? The title of the article? If so I think "Illegal immigration" is the best title possible, and it's been discused at length previously. As for the content, we discuss each of the commonly-used terms, which is the NPOV thing to do. But we're not a dictionary. As for what term we use throughout the article, it may depend on what aspect of the subject is being discussed. For example, much of the issue with employment concerns documentation, so "undocumented aliens" might be appropriate there. So might "migrant workers". OTOH, "illegal immigrant" clearly applies to someone who breaks the law while crossing the border with the intent to migrate permanently. "Visa overstayers" is what we can use when talking about the 40% (in the U.S.) whom we rarely talk about. And so on. There are many terms because none fits all uses. -Will Beback 08:36, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]