Jump to content

Wikipedia:Deletion review/Userbox debates/Archived

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< Wikipedia:Deletion review | Userbox debates

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Cyde (talk | contribs) at 17:24, 18 February 2006 (→Political Parties UserBoxes: Delete). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

As userboxes are a particular hot-button issue at the moment, and the constant appearance of them at Deletion review is beginning to swamp all other discussions, they for now are being moved here. New userbox nominations should be added to the top of this page, and linked from the DRV mainpage.

Global notice

All contributions from Dussst (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) may be ignored, since that account was created to circumvent the ban on Bourbons3 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Both accounts have been blocked indefinitely.[1] [2]

The George W. Bush templates are gone. They will not be recreated. Please see WP:NOT. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 18:06, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

An archive of the discussion is linked from #Archived discussions. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 20:10, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The willingness of certain administrators to allow the expression of biases which might lead to a more neutral encyclopedia is gone. Good luck on recreating that. --James S. 08:52, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Active dicussions

Wikipedia:WikiProject Userboxes/Alerts

I wasn't sure if this belong on here since it's not a userbox, but it is relevant to the project. In any case, I can barely contain my anger over this speedy deletion in particular. This was used to alert Wikipedians to userbox debates that were in progress. This was brought up for deletion, and the consensus was KEEP.[3] Mark Sweep speedied this yesterday, leaving a comment of "enough." No reason was given for this speedy deletion. This has gone too far. Even users who oppose userboxes said that they used this page to keep track of debates, so this was not a pro-userbox tool by any means. If I could, I would post my real feelings about this, but they would be in violation of WP:CIVIL, so I will just end this rant by asking my fellow Wikipedians to make a wise, thought-out choice on this. --D-Day Somebody talk to me. Please somebody! Anybody! 16:42, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not necessarily. Not every Tfd userbox is posted on here. --D-Day Somebody talk to me. Please somebody! Anybody! 17:21, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User no meat

Deleted because? no mention of this on TfD. I would appreciate an explanation. This tendancy of some admins to delete first and squash debate is patronizing and damaging to the credibility of Wikipedia. I can no longer assume good faith.Mike McGregor (Can) 13:19, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The deleted version of the template says:

This user is a strict vegetarian

but a past version of the template used to say:

This user believes that meat is murder and is a strict vegetarian

Template:User U.S. Republic

That the United States is a republic is a fact, not an opinion, and not inflammatory in the least. This template does not meet criteria T1 or any other. Undelete. Rogue 9 13:24, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • That's part of the problem with having all these templates deleted. I was going to say "undelete" because of your comment, but being an admin, I can see what was deleted, and wild accusations that the United States is not democratic is definitely inflammatory, even for my somewhat more restricted interpretation of CSD T1. Keep deleted. enochlau (talk) 14:46, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • The United States isn't a democracy. It's a republic. That's the point. There's no wild accusation there; that was Template:User wishful. Rogue 9 15:07, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Keep deleted, you aare technically right, the US is not a full democracy in the strict legal and philosophical sense. But if you think that's what this userbox was trying to say, especially when it made a comparision to democracy in wikipedia - you are being terrible naïve - this is obviously polemical and thus certainly meets WP:CSD T1. Why is it being reviewed? Oh, yes, it is a userbox, so deletion must be wrong ....--Doc ask? 15:27, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete The rationale I've been seeing is "it is a userbox, so it must be deleted." MiraLuka 17:08, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete. If you don't like it - fix it. Spilling the kid out with the bath is not the best tactics. Halibutt 17:16, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all userboxes. My stance is clear on this issue. --Cyde Weys 17:22, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User Chavez

I originally called for the deletion of this template. Wikipedians voted 5v1 for a keep. However, it was deleted anyway by MarkSweep. Did I miss something? How is this possible? Dosn't make any sense if you ask me. I've noticed other wikipedians have expressed the same concern regarding the deletion of other templates. If this is a common occurrence, why do we even bother with the voting process? alarm bells should be ringing.--James Bond 10:00, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(irrelevant thread moved to talk page)

Political Parties UserBoxes

These templates should be undeleted. Isnt it ones right to express themselves as to which political party they may belong to or support? Most were NOT using any copyrighted images.

  • Speedy Undelete Hossens27 09:14, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Undelete Fkmd 04:16, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wikipedia is not a democracy. Keep deleted. Every last one of them. Also, for reference, the article namespace is a neat place. Mackensen (talk) 04:36, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete as per nom MiraLuka 05:03, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Undelete - Nothing polemic about them. They do not in and of themselves incite or exacerbate political disputes, nor do they in any way suggest that the user is willing to engage in political disputes. —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 05:43, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Undelete, I was tempted to remove the speedy tags myself when I saw they were being mass-tagged. It would behoove Kelly Martin to stop dropping herself in the middle of the userbox drama, especially after her RFC. —Locke Cole • t • c 05:59, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. This is not the place. Divisive and not helpful. --Improv 06:10, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Undelete. Wikipedia isn't a sysop dictatorship either. We are supposed to reach consensus on issues, which does not include speedy deleting userboxes that express a political or social opinion. Undelete these and all other userboxes, unless they are clearly out of line or have gone through a vote for deletion. And most of the userboxes that have been deleting the last 24 hours are not incredibly divisive or inflammatory. What is divisive and inflamatory is this rampant deletion of peoples opinions. The Ungovernable Force 06:17, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Undelete. Most private interests can be contentious, including political ideologies, sexuality, views on gun laws etc etc. Political Parties is one aspect. The difference is that these userboxes are just that: userboxes. They are used by the users(!) to indicate what views they hold. To that end, in reference to Wikipedia, one can see fields of interest of particular users, and possibly collaborate with those users to help improve the encylopedia itself. The boxes are used only on peoples' user pages - that is their intended use.
I'm re-adding these comments I had made. MarkSweep deleted them from this page, citing WP:BEANS as the reason. I suggest that it is the sysop responsible for having deleted the user boxes that is actually in 'violation' of WP:BEANS. These were my original comments .. HOWEVER, I have not re-added a certain suggestion which *may* be considered violation of WP:BEANS -
The page Wikipedia:Userboxes/Political Parties still exists. Why?
If you are going to delete a whole section of Userboxes, then delete them all and have done with it. Was this category of userboxes deleted because the sysop took a personal dislike to them? Either delete the facility entirely, or leave it alone and let users decide on what is or is not appropriate or useful by concensus. --Mal 07:53, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
The page Wikipedia:Userboxes/Political Parties is still useful for further cleanup work, but I'm assuming it will be deleted soon. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 10:19, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
By whom, and why? You know, I don't really care that much, but I am curious. I had added a box for a particularly moderate political party, in case anyone saw it and wanted to use it. I hadn't actually intended on using any of these specific boxes myself however. --Mal 10:54, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete. Most of these were harmless and were unilaterally deleted in violation of the rules of WP:TFD in the first place. Halibutt 08:12, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted They were deleted as 'divisive', which they clearly are. AS Jimbo has put it 'Here we are Wikipedians, out there we are advocates'. Wikipedia is about neutrality, where a POV or party affiliation is irrelevant. Templates are for building an encyclopedia, not for use for soapboxes or partisan strutting. You want to express your individuality - create you own website. Folk keep saying 'what about TfD' well, 1) TfD clearly says POV is a deletion criteria for templates. 2) In iny case TfD is irrelevant, because these were speedied - speedy deletions do not require debate or consensus. --Doc ask? 10:51, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • but accusation of POV is not enough for speedy deletion, is it. Otherwise we'd have barely any articles in wikipedia. Halibutt
Stop wikilawyering. How is a democratic party userbox not representing a POV? You can't have it both ways - claim they are not like articles so NPOV doen't apply, and then claim they are entitled to the same protection from deletion that articles enjoy. Clearly no-one should speedy an article as POV. --Doc ask? 11:51, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

*Endorse deletion. Divisive. Go use livejournal if you want this kind of thing. T1. --Improv 15:35, 18 February 2006 (UTC) You already voted. JDoorjam Talk[reply]

  • Speedy Undelete I dream of an online encyclopedia where its users aren't constantly berated for expressing themselves in userspace. I am a afraid we may have to start a NEW WIKI ENCYCLOPEDIA to have such freedom.  IS Guðsþegn – UTCE – 15:42, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm sorry, but the talk of starting a new encyclopedia over the userbox debate is a little silly. JDoorjam Talk
Yeah it's a bit extreme, and I don't really want to start a new one. It was just used to stress the point. Userbox debates aren't just about goofy little userboxes. In this environment userboxes have surfaced as an expression of the right of individuals in any community to freedom of association. Communities cannot exist without it. One might say the whole community is our association. On one level true, but this is the excuse to actually deny freedom of association. As an example, used for clarity not to inflame, Communist governments used to claim that they represented ALL the people, so no non-dependent associations were allowed to form. It killed the community. Point, there is no universal community without particular communities. Another example, there is no universal church without particular churches, and particular churches have differences. If particulars are not allowed to flourish, then the universal dies.  IS Guðsþegn – UTCE – 16:31, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The vote is TWENTY THREE to THREE in favor of keeping them, someone bring them back already! Weatherman90 17:07, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Super Strong Speedy Keep. Like Glue. Wikipedia is NOT Communism. --D-Day Somebody talk to me. Please somebody! Anybody! 17:14, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep deleted - The mere fact that userboxes in general are causing so much divisive and counterproductive behavior makes me think they should all be done away with. The template namespace should be restricted to article templates ONLY. --Cyde Weys 17:24, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

User No Marxism

Template was speedily deleted, apparently against community consensus. There is no reason not to allow statements of personal belief on user pages. Undelete. - Mike Rosoft 22:50, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep deleted. Divisive and polemical, valid speedy. David | Talk 23:13, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete. A simple statement of opposition to a point of view is neither polemical ("controversial; disputatious"), nor inflammatory ("Arousing passion or strong emotion"), insofar as its actual statement goes. The issue of userboxes containing a POV is inflammatory and polemical, and an actual set out one-sided arguement against marxism would be inflammatory and polemical, but a simple statement of opposition to Marxist thinking is not. Reveilled 23:23, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete. Wikipedia is not a Borg mothership and some individuality should be allowed. --StuffOfInterest 23:32, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. No, wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a debating society and this is obviously polemical. Stop knee-jerk listing thse things please. --Doc ask? 23:37, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • How is it polemical? Not agreeing with Marxist philosophy is by no means controversial, and without providing an argument is cannot be considered dispuatious. Thus, it is not polemical. Reveilled 23:45, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • I am a libertarian commie, and though I don't support Marx, people may well consider my ideas marxist. I don't find this polemical, and even though I know most people with this userbox would disagree with my ideas as well, I think this userbox should remain, as should all political userboxes until a real policy is developed. undelete The Ungovernable Force 06:23, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted - delete all userboxes and obviously keep deleted the ones that have already been deleted. --Cyde Weys 23:57, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Deleted.. This is not the place, see CSD. --Improv 00:03, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete. Stop the nonsense, this is not divisive. --Dragon695 01:42, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • undelete per Reveilled et al. Mike McGregor (Can) 01:53, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Deleted. Idiotic, divisive.--Colle|File:Locatecolle.gif|Talk-- 03:34, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete as above, especially StuffOfInterest, who made me laugh. MiraLuka 05:05, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete. I don't think CSD T1 is being interpreted right here - this isn't divisive, it is simply asserting a statement of belief. Divisive user boxes are those created by trolls and other undesirables in order to intentionally inflame others, like the pedophilia stuff. This isn't one of them. enochlau (talk) 11:04, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete per enochlau. Rogue 9 12:59, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete"" per above. admins abusing power is not cool. Mike McGregor (Can) 13:03, 18 February 2006 (UTC) oops, already voted Mike McGregor (Can) 13:05, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. You don't need a template clogging the serves in order to assert your political beliefs. You also don't need to assert your political beliefs in order to write an encyclopeda. This division is harmful. Mackensen (talk) 13:08, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete All political userboxes may be regarded as 'divisive' etc. As a large variety of pro-communist boxes is available, deleting anti-communist box hastily is biased and against free speech. What would people think if the anti-fascist template would be deleted, while a lot of fascist ones retained? Constanz - Talk 14:04, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • UndeleteI don't think anyone can provide a genuine explanation for deleting anti-communist box, if anti-communist boxes are to be deleted, then all other boxes should also be deleted, and we should not have any boxes, if political expression are not allowed to be expressed freely, then it is the end of free world, today anti-communist boxes are deleted, then we will have pro-democracy boxes deleted. If one cannot have boxes to express our political point of view, then why do we have boxes for what type of browser we use, or what operating system we use, which search engine we use, what are hobby are, which university we graduated from, you don't need all those boxes for writing an article on wikipedia, if those boxes are clogging up the service, then all the boxes should be deleted, and this is nothing more than a misuse of power by the Administrator. The Anti-communist box should be restored.(Rohit Singh 15:22, 18 February 2006 (UTC))[reply]

User marriage man-woman and User Same Sex Marriage

Templates were speedily deleted, apparently against community consensus. There is no reason not to allow statements of personal belief on user pages. Undelete. - Mike Rosoft 22:50, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep deleted, both of them. Divisive and polemical, valid speedy. David | Talk 23:13, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete. Wikipedia is not a Borg mothership and some individuality should be allowed. --StuffOfInterest 23:33, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. No, wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a debating society and this is obviously divisive. Stop knee-jerk listing thse things please. --Doc ask? 23:38, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete - Do not fulfill T1 requirements for speedy deletion (not deliberately inflammatory or divisive), discussion of User marriage man-woman brought up essentially the same points entirely in favor of keeping before being Speedy Kept, then deleted by the crusaders (User Same Sex Marriage was speedied too quickly for discussion). The most divisive thing about these userboxes is that people deleted them on a whim. Speedy deletion is not a toy. —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 23:54, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Neither is wikipedia - go play politics somewhere else, and buy a bumber sticker if you want. --Doc ask? 23:58, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Doc, please stop being a dick. --Dragon695 01:40, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NPA, WP:DICK. —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 04:21, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

User freedom

TFD has already been closed as a Strong Keep here Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_January_22#Template:User_freedom. Cleary the community has spoken, this template is not divisive. This speedy deletion by User:Doc glasgow is nothing more than an end run around a valid TFD.

Fox hunting userboxes

Template:User against fox hunting was originally deleted by Tony Sidaway on January 3, as "Proselytising is not a defensible use of Wikipedia resources" Mike Rosoft restored it not too long after Tony's deletion. Yesterday, Mark Sweep speedied as "per CSD T1 as tagged." And did the same to Temolate:User for fox hunting for the same reason.

I'm not sure what the latter said, but the one against fox hunting simply said "This user opposes fox hunting." and containted a picture of a fox. I don't see what can be so "inflammatory" or "divisive" about that, especially if their is an opposing userbox to balance the POV. --D-Day Somebody talk to me. Please somebody! Anybody! 12:31, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template: User nospeedy

Was speedied because it was "divisive", "inflammatory", and violation of T1. No consensus for its deletion was reached yet, and the debate was not closed. --D-Day 16:10, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • undeleate Voices legit concerns over admins ignoring or circumventing process. Mike McGregor (Can) 16:19, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: can someone put the content of this userbox on display here? I'd like to know exactly what it said. (Though, having said that, I'm getting tired of userboxes being deleted out of process, regardless of their content.) JDoorjam Talk 16:33, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • For information, the content was: This user wishes that userboxes wouldn't get speedied without consent, especially during a TfD debate. Please be fair, admins.. And it was deleted for: 'per WP:CSD T1, WP:POINT, and WP:TROLL as tagged)'.
  • Important comment I think a number of people are missing the point here:
  1. Speedy deletions do not require consensus, debate or process - they never have. That's why they are called 'speedy'. They are carried out at discression of admins, under the guidence of the WP:CSD. It is quite legitimate to speedy during an xfD debate or at any other time if the article is within the spirit of the criteria.
  2. Speedy deletions should not usually be brought to DRV unless the item self-evidently is ouwith the spirit of the deletion criteria - or its deletion would be a loss to the encyclopedia. Yet some people seem intent on listing every userbox deletion here, in a clear attempt to circumvent a deletion criteron (T1) that they do not like. (It is clearly quite reasonable for an admin to view this box as divisive and inflammetory, and unhelpful to encyclopedia building).
  3. Why should userboxes enjoy special status? It keeps being said that userboxes are being deleted 'out of process'. They are not. Only very few out of the 6,000 that currently exist get deleted, and they are deleted in exactly the same manner as any other item. If they meet the spirit of the speedy criteria, they go by speedy, if not then they should be debated at tfd. Please also consider that the reason admins are relectant to send offending boxes to tfd, is that tfd is being weighted an by a 'stuff the deletion criteria - keep every userbox' block vote. --Doc ask? 17:04, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for posting the content. To clarify, I'm expressing frustration at the entire controversy in general. I understand the uses and limits of a speedy deletion; the strife its use is causing is still frustrating, though, even if it's legitimate. But my parenthetical statement was meant as more of a groan than an argument one way or another.
This userbox seems like it was specifically designed to get picked up and speedily deleted. It's an outward message, not a description of the user, it's clearly polemical and seems like it meant to be in order to violate WP:POINT... it seems to me like it was properly speedily deleted. Again, if people want to debate CSD T1, there are fora for such a discussion all over the Wik. Userboxes simply should not be soapbox-in-a-box (isn't that what this whole debate is about?). I'm afraid this userbox seems to be making a point of missing the point. JDoorjam Talk 17:26, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, to be clear my remarks were not aimed specifically at you, but at the nom and the debates here in general. Oh,just to be clear keep deleted - although I object to having to vote here every time something is quite legitimately speedied. --Doc ask? 17:33, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This does look like a clear WP:POINT violation, but that isn't a speedy delition criteria. For a template to be speedy deleted it MUST be "devisive" or "inflamatory", and to comply with the spirit it must be unarguably so. In my opinion this template is borderline on both counts so TfD would have been a more apropriate avenue. I would vote delete in a debate but it does not qualify for speedy deletion, so Undelete and send to TfD. Thryduulf 18:05, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Eh, I don't believe it's an attempt to assert opposition to T1, but rather, to assert opposition to admins who speedily delete template out of process. T1 is valid, but very few templates are truly clearly divisive. It may be read as an attempt to assert opposition to the standing interpretation of T1, but I honestly don't feel that many people disagree with the spirit of the criterion. --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 19:10, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User Cannibal

This userbox was speedied twice by Kelly Martin and Doc Glasglow. It was a rather popular userbox and as the creator I do not feel it was meant to be inflammatory, offensive, etc. Ms. Martin said it was offensive and Doc called it "sick." HappyCamper and Ambi also delted it because of WP:Point.

I am asking the community to respond to this. I asked on its talk page what was wrong with it, but no one responded. This was nowhere near as offensive as the pedophile ones, and it was intended as humor. For some reason, it was placed on the eating habits page for userboxes. Which probably partially explains why it was speedied. --D-Day 22:03, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Can you tell me what's so offensive about the pedophile template? I couldn't figure it out myself. Sarge Baldy 23:27, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think it was because of the recent awareness of child predators is what caused the outrage. It was sort of funny, but in poor taste. As far as I know, cannibalism isn't a big problem in this country. --D-Day 23:32, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting point. I find the content in the profanity article disgusting. And flatulence? Wikipedians should have better social habits then to post such filth online. Should we delete those? --D-Day 22:27, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Those are enyclopedia articles. This is not, therefore the comparison is totally moot.--Sean Black (talk) 22:30, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I realize that. I'm just using that as an example. I know they are articles, very intresting ones at that. I'm just saying that everything that may be just a tad grotesque should not be deleted. --D-Day 22:43, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment For the record, I only deleted this userbox once (the other time it was a redirect to an already deleted template) as did Kelly. It has actually been deleted once by four different admins, myself, Kelly, HappyCamper and Ambi. I'm not sure why D-Day chose to name only two of the four and wrongly state that they had deleted it twice .--Doc ask? 22:39, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oh, Keep deleted of course articles on profane subjects are kept, they are encyclopedic: this is not, so there is no comparison. I've no objection to jokes in userspace but it is not what template space is for. Anyway, this userbox commits the unpardonable sin of being both useless and unfunny. --Doc ask? 22:39, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Not all userboxes are funny. Should those be deleted if they say that "This user speaks English?"
If you admit that it isn't funny, really what is the excuse for it? Because unlike Babel language boxes, it sure the hell isn't useful. --Doc ask? 23:04, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Not that old chestnut again. Userspace is not 'myspace' but it ultimately exists to serve the enclyclopedia. How does this derve the encyclopedia? Anyway, it isn't in userspace. --Doc ask? 01:10, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The user boxes are all displayed in user space. That the templates themselves don't reside in user space is totally irrelevant. It's all hard disc space somewhere, and I don't think the servers really care whether the templates are used for articles or user space. But if we're taking out everything that fails to serve an encyclopedia, then when is the userboxen armageddon coming? My biggest problem isn't freedom of speech or expression or any of that nonsense. My problem is the sheer inconsistency. If "User cannibal" is going to be deleted, then why not get rid of all of the user boxes? And that's not a rhetorical question. Why not get rid of BJAODN? What encyclopedic purpose does BJAODN serve? If we're going to draw a line, let's draw it already, and let's stick to it. But this arbitrary selection drives me nuts. JDoorjam Talk 01:21, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted - doesn't create a greater sense of community on Wikipedia (the way the non-attack political userboxes do). Oh, and as a side issue, learni to {{subst:}} your userboxes will ensure that out-of-process deletions (which I want to emphasise this one is NOT) don't affect YOUR userpage.Cynical 11:36, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question: Out of curiosity, how many users constitute 'rather popular'? When was this created, originally? I find the fact that four different admins deleted it fairly compelling, but Kelly's deletion was during the GUBP, and I've no evidence that it existed much before the userbox-spamming began in late 2005. -- nae'blis (talk) 15:35, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete don't you have a sense of humor? (assuming the only thing said on the userbox was "This user is a cannibal". and not some overly offensive joke) --Revolución (talk) 17:55, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That's exactly what it said. D-Day 21:11, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User no Rand

It's a shame that we have to discuss this AGAIN, seeing as it already passed DRV on February 9 and was re-listed on WP:TFD, but of course, an admin saw fit to speedy delete it once more under the convienent T1 loophole (log). Recommendation: Undelete and Relist on TFD --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 01:09, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • T1 is a subjective criterion to which deletionists have determined means that they get to delete any template that expresses any opposing viewpoint. I don't believe this was Jimbo's intention, and I don't believe that this is the purpose of T1, hence the term "loophole". --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 18:37, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted all user boxes which criticize or disparage their subjects. CSD T1 is not a loophole. — Knowledge Seeker দ 05:04, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted per Knowledge Seeker and Tony. CSD T1 is policy and it was endorsed by Jimbo.--Alhutch 05:32, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. Simply put, listing things you dislike or disagree with does nothing to build the encyclopedia and is quite likely to annoy people of the opposite persuasion. (Nobody would introduce himself to a stranger by saying, "Hi, I'm Mike, I hate the ACLU, oppose anyone who's ever fired a gun, and really hope gay marriage never sees the light of day." But this is becoming par for the course at Wikipedia.) It is exactly the sort of pointlessly inflammatory thing that has been speedy deleted in the past and should continue to be speedy deleted in the future. Christopher Parham (talk) 05:53, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • No, but in the course of working with someone on an encyclopedia with the idea of having the article display a neutral point of view at the end, it is highly useful to know what your fellow editors' POVs are so that you can determine whether or not they are inserting said POVs into the articles. Userboxes keep people accountable. To that end, undelete. Rogue 9 06:23, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. Divisive, poisoning well, yaddayadda. --Improv 06:02, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete Its already survived one DRV, why is there someone so hell-bent on getting this deleted?!? - • | Đܧ§§Ť | • T | C 10:27, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted, CSD T1 is active, if restrained from widespread use, and Christopher Parham said it better than I ever could. -- nae'blis (talk) 17:32, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete. Simply saying that disclosing one's POV doesn't help to build a NPOV encyclopedia doesn't make it true. This is a legitimate opinion which, if disclosed, would help other editors understand the user's point of view. --James S. 18:22, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Right. I think understanding that other people are not POV-less editing drones, but real people with real opinions is helpful. And knowing those opinions helps editors better communicate with one another. If anything, I find it more worrisome when people hide their biases from other people, or pretend that their biases do not extend to Wikipedia. Sarge Baldy 18:30, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted divisive - again Trödel&#149;talk 18:45, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted all negative userboxes. This means any userbox that says "no" to something, is "anti" something, "opposes" something. Keep all userboxes that are positive. This means any userbox that states a simple characteristic or quality of the editor. This does not mean make a judgement about what you personally feel is positive or negative, helpful or divisive. Feel free to copy this vote to any debate it applies to. Grace Note 01:26, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete - What is wrong with people? TFD is not just a recommendation, you can't just ignore it if you don't like something.--God of War 04:53, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion - It's divisive and inflammatory, therefore it is against both the spirit and the policy of Wikipedia. The continual recreation of this article is paramount to trolling to make a WP:POINT. Kill it, salt the earth, protect from recreation, and a pox on anyone who tries to game their way around this. Proto||type 09:45, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User wishful

Deleted during active TFD Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_February_5#Template:User_wishful with a consensus to keep.

Undelete Procedural undelete. User:Adrian/zap2.js 22:29, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Don't understand that comment - do you mean that it is neccessarily devisive? --Doc ask? 01:38, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • In a sense, yes. Any amount of divisiveness this template may cause is necessary. To be blunt, all userbox templates will have some degree of divisiveness attached to them, even something as simple as {{user Salad}}, because not everyone shares the same viewpoint. I do not believe this template to be exceptionally divisive, nor do I believe it to be T1 criteria. That is what I mean - when expressing an opinion, some amount of "divisiveness" is strictly necessary. When it becomes detrimental to the project, then it becomes an issue. --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 01:43, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You admit it is divisive, and T1 says divisive userboxes should be speedied. Thus the speedy is valid by you argument. --Doc ask? 02:06, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • T1 says that userboxes that are clearly divisive should be deleted. I argue that this template is not divisive, and any divisiveness that arises from it is strictly necessary. Also, I do not endorse T1 - I honestly don't care if Jimbo has. --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 02:11, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
So let met get this right, you're advocating undeleting it because you don't agree with existing policy? --MarkSweep (call me collect) 08:12, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, I am advocating undeletion because I feel it should be undeleted. In addition, I disagree with the standing interpretation of T1. I do not disagree with it's intent - to prevent such inane garbage as {{user pedophile}} from clogging up Wikipedia's processes and to allow such things to be deleted. I do not believe it should be used to justify deleting any template that can be considered by someone to be "divisive", because in that case, you might as well just go and delete everything in the template namespace. The criterion is subjective, and I have applied my own subjective reasoning to it. --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 17:23, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User pacifist3

File:Peace Sign.svg This user thinks pacifists make good target practice.

on the tfd for user pacifist, here, there were 30 keep votes to 19 delete votes. A Strong majority to keep. However User:Splash has closed the afd as a No Consensus. He then went to Speedy delete the box claming it was divisive. Cleary the TFD has proven that the community thinks this userbox is not divisive. Please Undelete this.--God of War 19:48, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User opposes ubx screwing

This appears to be a mistaken deletion. The text of the userbox didn't appear to be divisive/inflammatory as Physchim62, who deleted it, said. The creator may correct me, but it could have meant that that user didn't want to see userboxes vandalized or added to their userpage without permission, rather than the whole userbox debate. --D-Day 19:47, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

*Keep deleted per CSD T1 - this template is actually unnessarily divisive. Nonetheless, I do recommend restoring the content on the userpages that link to this - I have observed a handful of userpages that have redlinks to this template. --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 01:28, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • This template appears to have been recreated. Looking at the text displayed in the current version, it does not appear to be divisive, but nonetheless, the title is. I recommend undeleting (current revision) and moving to a non-offensive title. --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 17:52, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User-AmE-0

This template is in TfD discussions, with around 75-80% consensus to keep. Unfortunately, the administrator User:Doc glasgow, (*unsubstantiated personal attack removed*), decided to unilaterally speedy it. Naturally, I re-instated it as it is a template in TfD. Once again, the said administrator put the page in , violating the categories own usage policy as well as several others. There is no justification for speedy deletion when it is in TfD with consensus to keep, and there is certainly no justification in protecting the page. Deano (Talk) 17:29, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User Anti-UN

This user does not support the United Nations.

This template was deleted despite an overwhelming number of the votes to keep (see here). What's more, after all votes were submitted, the Admin who started the deletion process, User:MarkSweep wrote, "The result of the debate was moot. This template was speedy deleted." An admin is implying that the process was irrelevant. I would like the deletion of this template to be reviewed and know if User:MarkSweep's conduct was appropriate for an admin.

Just to clarify: This is what I usually write when closing a discussion early after a speedy deletion, which, by the way, is standard procedure. The part about "The result of the debate was" is supplied by {{tfd top}}. All I did was add the word "moot" and an explanation of what had happened. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 09:23, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I've userfied both boxes - see User:Userboxes/Anti-UN and User:Userboxes/Anti-ACLU. Thus, CSD T1 no longer applies, but users who wish to either subst: or transclude this content may still do so. (See the proposed policy at Wikipedia:Use of userboxes). This was done in order to avoid the necessity for another lengthy debate rehashing the same arguments over and over again. Can we please avoid yet more tedious, repetitious discussions and get back to writing an encyclopedia? I'm getting sick and tired of this nonsense. Frankly, Wikipedia just isn't fun any more, and I'm not sure how much of my time I want to devote to a community divided by such petty squabbling. Crotalus horridus (TALK • CONTRIBS) 07:45, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Restore in the user namespace. I like Crotalus horridus' compromise. Banish userboxes not directly related to the encyclopedia from the template namespace, but keep them in user namespace so they can be transcluded if necessary. I used to think this would die down on its own, but I'm honestly fed up with Wikipedia. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm seriously considering leaving, and I doubt Wikipedia will continue on for much longer if things remain like this. Johnleemk | Talk 10:38, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Such an action should be taken on an en masse scale, and after achieving general consensus for such a move (I'd endorse it, for one), not in a piecemeal, haphazard fashion, and such a decision should be reached on the TfD debate, not on Deletion Review (which is only here to review the deletion, not to recommend third options that should really have been discussed on the TfD). Otherwise, we risk not only causing more chaos and disorder as anti-userbox admins get out of control with userfying whatever templates they happen to personally dislike, but also risk causing a lot of unnecessary revert-wars and POV problems: why does "anti-UN" need to be userfied, while "pro-UN" is perfectly fine on the templatespace? The only message that sends is that Wikipedia itself is pro-UN. We need to make such a move for all user templates, or for none of them. I'd support doing it for them all, but this is not really the correct place to start such a large-scale move. All we're discussing here is this TfD and current policy, which quite clearly shows that the speedy-deletion was out-of-line and that a full TfD discussion is in order (even if the ultimate result of that discussion is userfication). That's the only way to keep both sides of the matter happy, and to make it clear that users' opinions aren't being ignored and their views arbitrarily and unnecessarily censored. Speedy-deletes like this serve only to escalate the disunity and factionalization of the community, and should not be tolerated even if the userbox itself merits deletion. -Silence 17:52, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Then the correct vote would be "Overturn" and then, once it is overturned, to vote "Delete" (or even "Speedy Delete", if you think it's both inflammatory and divisive, not merely "unhelpful") on the reopened TfD vote. This is a discussion of process, not of the template itself: if the template isn't clearly and obviously meriting speedy-delete at this point in time (and it's not, as shown by the number of "overturn" votes here and "keep" votes there), it deserves a full-run of discussion to iron out the details and discuss this matter to a satisfying amount. Stifling debate here won't serve either side's interest (and will only serve to further polarize the community, emphasizing that there are two distinct sides and that one has no interest in listening or responding to what the other has to say). Discussion keeps a consensus-run editing community healthy, and forbidding a full discussion over this matter by endorsing out-of-process, unilateral, undiscussed speedy-deletion will only cause more damage and discontent amont Wikipedia's valuable editors, thus ultimately harming the encyclopedia. What's so wrong with letting the TfD run its course? -Silence 17:52, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The purpose of these templates is to self-identify and show in a clear way what biases a user has, not to further an agenda or "contact one another and organise" (which I've always thought was a rather flimsy, and somewhat melodramatic and paranoid (and thus not assuming good faith), argument against userboxes; it will be rather obvious if anyone attempts to use userboxes to stuff votes or "cluster" and factionalize, so it will be (and has been) both very rare and pretty easy to prevent). We have "anti-racism" templates; are those equally inappropriate? Why is it perfectly fine to support the UN, but not to say that you don't support the UN—or any other major, global organization for that matter? Isn't it much more POVed to say "Wikipedians can only be positive of the UN" than it is to let people identify where they stand on the matter? Additionally, are you basing your vote on the speedy-deletion criterion and current Wikipedia userbox policies, and on careful analysis of the actual discussion preceding this out-of-process speedy-delete, or are you basing it on your personal opposition to anti-UN (or "anti-anything") sentiment? We have "anti-Marxist" userboxes that noone seems to object to. Is there anything really so wrong with an "anti-" opinion, as long as it's directed at a philosophy or organization or major public figure that is relevant to the POVs and beliefs of the Wikipedian? I don't see what the big deal is. There's little difference between the pro-side and the anti-side of a debate; it's merely a matter of terminology. Two sides of the same coin. Censoring one side and thus implicitly endorsing the other side is a bad practice that will get Wikipedia in more trouble than if it simply lets these things be. -Silence 17:52, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Correct, "TfD is not strictly a vote"—it's a discussion. Noone made an argument for why the template should be speedy-deleted, and obviously many people disagree that this template qualifies as "divisive" and "inflammatory", so even if you feel personally that it is both divisive and inflammatory, the correct place to discuss those matters is on a TfD. The job of an admin who is closing a TfD vote is to interpret the discussion, not to voice his own opinion in complete, unilateral disregard for the entire discussion! If you're an admin and believe strongly that a template currently undergoing TfD discussion should be speedy-deleted, then the correct course of action is to vote, not to immediately speedy-delete it without any support whatsoever and without anyone having even brought up the matter of whether speedy-delete is applicable here (which it happens to not be, incidentally; this template is not strictly "inflammatory", it's quite courteous and inoffensive). Even if the TfD keep votes were accompanied by flawed reasoning, the correct response is to point out that flaw by responding to the votes, not to simply ignore them all! and assume that dozens of users are ignorant, irrelevant cattle and only your opinion is relevant, not anyone else's. All of this should be discussed in the TfD, and then it should be speedy-deleted if and only if the arguments for it end up being more markedly compelling than the arguments against it. TfD is not a vote, but it's also not a battle over which side has the most admins: it's. a. discussion. So let's discuss whether it qualifies for a speedy-delete (or a delete at all), not bully each other around with admin-privilege abuses. -Silence 17:52, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is no current speedy-deletion criterion that says "all POV usertemplates should be speedy-deleted", thus your vote currently seems to rely on faulty logic that is based in personal opinion rather than interpretation of any policy; if this is not the case and you are alluding to some specific, approved policy that endorses speedy-deleting all POVed userboxes, I apologize. But that is not currently the case. Userboxes are used in userspace, not articlespace, and thus do not fall under the "NPOV" requirements (or the NOR requirements, for that matter, which would require the deletion of all userspace) for the same reason Usercategories (Category:Wikipedians) don't. You are trying to circumvent process in this case on a technicality, adhering to the letter rather than to the spirit of Wikipedia's guidelines and rules. -Silence 17:52, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong. WP:TfD makes clear that POV is a deletion criteria. Thus this should be deleted. TfD debates are failing to enforce policy, but there is little point in restoring a template that meets the deletion criteria. Further, WP:NOT a soapbox. --Doc ask? 23:46, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Overturn and Relist. This is not a review of the template, it's a review of the process, and it is absurdly clear that this deletion was very poorly-done: see the discussion at Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion#Template:User_against_Iraq_War_2 (and the Anti-UN vote, of course) for details. Not a single user had voted for "speedy delete", no one had brought up why and how it might be "divisive" or "inflammatory", there was at the time a consensus to keep, the discussion had barely just begun (with a whole week of time for people who felt the template merited deletion to discuss the matter), and even the people who voted "delete" did not vote "speedy". If those voters were mistaken or misinformed or unaware of the new deletion criterion, then the correct next step to take would be to vote and explain your view, arguing for speedy-delete and then waiting to see if your argument gains support or if valid counter-arguments are made—and there are certainly some very strong possible arguments one could make to demonstrate that "This user does not support the United Nations" is probably not all that divisive, and certainly not in any way inflammatory! It's practically stale, it's so impersonal! The new speedy-delete criterion was created for templates like "This user hates Jews" or "This user wants all Americans to die", not grey-area templates like "This user opposes the UN" (which was only created as a balance to "This user supports the UN", to appease NPOV and show that Wikipedia isn't exclusively for UN supporters!; if this template is 'divisive', than that one surely has to be equally divisive, unless it would be OK to say 'This user supports capital punishment' but not 'This user opposes capital punishment')! So, while it might possibly be applied to this template, certainly it's not such a clear-cut case that we can't even permit any discussion of the matter, but just have to shove all the dozens of dissenting opinions into the gutter without so much as a response, just with a dismissive "everyone else is wrong"! What on earth does that accomplish, sacrificing users' faith in the system and in Wikipedia's openness just to get a dinky little userbox deleted today rather than four days from now? Somewhat of a pyrrhic victory, even for those who hate all userboxes; process is only a means to an end, sure, but in this case ignoring process (and ignoring, not just all votes, but all discussion, in favor of immediate speedy-delete) is more damaging to the goals of Wikipedia than, as it can only serve to alienate and further divide and factionalize this community. For Wikigod's sake, let the TfD discussion run its course! What's so terrible and unacceptable about letting people talk this over? -Silence 17:08, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete/relist Expressing a common POV in dispassionate language is not inflammatory, as I understand the meaning of that word. Saying "User opposes X", where X is the normal name of a major political entity or cause is always fine. Saying "User opposes Nazi, slimy, evil, X" is not. It's simple. This user emphatically supports the UN, incidentally. Xoloz 17:11, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete and relist POV is not illegal, and speedying during a TfD is really annoying. If the discussion is going towards "delete" why not let it run? If it is going to "keep" then the speedying is completely inappropriate! Stop speedying everything!. There is no point of having a TfD discussion if people are just going to speedy things in the middle of it - • | Đܧ§§Ť | • T | C 17:54, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. Divisive, and now clarified as appropriate to speedy by the new criteria as per Jimbo's dictum. --Improv 18:17, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted all templates which criticize or disparage their subjects. This is an encyclopedia. — Knowledge Seeker দ 19:09, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • This template neither criticizes nor disparages its subject. Read the contents: "This user does not support the United Nations." It's a statement of fact (the fact being what the user's opinion of the UN is) to make explicit a POV of the user in order, and is perfectly civil and entirely non-inflammatory. More importantly, even if you want it deleted, the speedy-delete was out of line and violated consensus and the TfD discussion, misinterpreted TfD policy (assuming that "inflammatory" simply means "not positive", which is obviously not the case), and contradicts common sense. If I wanted this template deleted, I'd vote to "undelete and relist" and then vote to "delete" at the relisted TfD; not even giving it a TfD discussion even though it's truly not an especially objectionable template (for god's sake, we gave "This user hates Jews" an entire week of in-depth discussion!) is clearly unacceptable. -Silence 20:56, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are different shades of criticism, and this is more subtle than most, which is nice. Still, I feel that any of these templates which express negative views do not belong (and actually many of the ones with positive views, as well). If your preferred method of keeping material deleted is to vote to undelete and relist and then vote to delete at TfD, that is your prerogative; I prefer to simply vote to keep deleted here. I understand that you feel that these actions are unacceptable; however, please realize that there others, including me, who feel it to be quite acceptable. — Knowledge Seeker দ 19:19, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. There is no way that 'I am against X' userboxes are helping create an encyclopedia. Therefore, given the problems they cause, we have to dispense with them. The Land 19:24, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are plenty of ways. They make explicit a POV of the user, allowing others to better understand that user's perspective and basic assumptions. They allow users to self-express their views in a constructive way that does not damage the encyclopedia, encouraging them to use their userpage to voice their opinions rather than using articles to voice their opinions (and push their POVs). They make it clear that Wikipedia does itself have a POV on these issues (a problem that arises from letting people have a "This user supports the UN" and forbidding them to have a "This user does not support the UN" template, implying that Wikipedia itself supports the UN and does not condone anti-UN (or even non-pro-UN, since the template's content says "doesn't support", not "opposes"!) sentiment). If the problem here is with POV templates, then both sides of the POV should be deleted, not just one; but even if that's so, it should be deleted through the TfD process, not through unilateral vigilante action in complete disregard for both consensus and discussion. This is about an improper, admin-privileges-abusing speedydelete that misinterpreted the meaning of the word "inflammatory", not about the userbox itself, which is what the TfD discussion is there for. Even if you personally think all userboxes should be deleted, or all anti-X templates should be deleted, that is not current Wikipedia policy, and voting based on that rather than on an interpretation of the vote, discussion, speedy-delete action, and current TfD policies is inappropriate. -Silence 20:56, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why bother? "Consensus" is the biggest joke at wikipedia. Vote any way you want, discuss until the cows come home. If King Jimbo wants it gone, it's gone, and will stay gone, regardless of what anyone else thinks. --Kbdank71 19:32, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted, not useful, carefully enumerating things you don't like, for no apparent reason, is effectively trolling, in that it's only plausible effect is to draw a negative response from others. Christopher Parham (talk) 20:15, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The problem here is that if there was a major global movement that strongly opposed the UN as its foundational message, let's say "Movement X", and we made a userbox saying "This user supports Movement X", an "only pro-X, no anti-X!" belief would cause you to let the userbox remain, and would make it impossible to in any way criticize Movement X ("This user doesn't support Movement X" would be deleted), even though Movement X would be essentially synonymous with "not supporting the UN". In other words, the only difference between pro-X and anti-X is terminological and semantic; speedy-deleting something just because it says "...doesn't support..." is absurd. Not supporting, or opposing, an organization can be just as significant and noteworthy. For example, "atheism" is defined in the negative; it is a movement that is inherently a lack of something. If we didn't have a word for "atheism" and just had to say "This user doesn't support God" or similar, would that suddenly change it from being appropriate to inappropriate? Entirely on a semantic basis? There shouldn't have to be a word or term for opposing something just to allow there to be a userbox; the basis should be whether the sentiment is noteworthy ("This user doesn't support his best friend Greg" wouldn't be a noteworthy enough view to bother with a general-use userbox), meaningful ("This user doesn't support parsley" wouldn't provide a meaningful enough distinction between users), and non-abusive ("This user doesn't support the UN because they're assholes" would be incivil and would qualify for 'inflammatory and divisive' deletion, unlike this template). There's simply no reason to speedy-delete this template, anymore than there is to do so for any other user-template; as such, even if it's deleted, it should not be speedy-deleted, or at least not speedy-deleted until that option has been discussed on TfD, with pros and cons being provided for both options. There's no justification for tossing aside TfD here, as there's obviously a significant enough dispute over whether this truly qualifies for speedy-deletion to permit a TfD discussion over that option, which is what was happening just fine, and should have continued to happen, and still should be permitted to happen. Otherwise, the entire VfD process is meaningless and arbitrary, the deletion criteria are a joke, and whether or not something is deleted is the result of a coin-flip, not of a reasoned, in-depth discussion. Sad. -Silence 20:56, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ignore. The userbox war has spread to every corner of Wikipedia, and bogged down every process it's come near. I say wait until there is a workable consensus on the whole issue before deleting, undeleting, nominating, using, editing or even reading any userboxen. - Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] 20:39, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is not about the userbox war. The situation would be the same for any template: speedy-deletion should not be a tool for admins to use to circumvent any meaningful discussion and avoid having to bother to try to convince anyone else that they're right when they know they already are; the discussion clearly did not indicate a "speedy-delete", and if the voters were misinformed or their discussion faulty, a counter-argument should have been made before the discussion was abruptly cut off. The same would be true for any template, article, category, or page at all. Discussion is helpful, not harmful. I agree with you that we should stop bothering with these ridiculous individual nominations until a policy exists for userboxes, but that doesn't mean we should let admins abuse the system to arbitrarily attack specific templates that have a strong consensus for "keep". This is about the TfD process, not about userboxes, as Deletion Review is a review of the deletion process, discussion, policies, etc. more than of the specific page that happened to be deleted. -Silence 20:56, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry, I disagree. I don't see that this would have been deleted absent the userbox war. There are tigers on the loose and I think it will only make matters worse if we start RfCs and other arguments before we have actually come to some agreement on the core issue; theese are not "rogue admins" they are editors with a strong opinion following their consciences and using the tools with which the community has entrusted them. Maybe that means we are too lax in handing out admin powers, but until the dust has settled I think these individual debates are, as you suggest above, sterile and unhelpful. I don't have a strong view either way right now although I lean towards the exclusion of divisive userboxen, but I don't see that we can fix the problem by deleting or undeleting anything right now. So let's make a list of the ones which are contentious, deleted or not, and revisit the whole lot once a workable consensus has been reached. It's not like the project will be brought down by the absence of a template saying that a user does or does not support the UN. I might be wrong here, but then again I might not. Now look at me - engaging in philosophical arguments in DRV, exactly like I said we shold not. See how the disute is infesting the project? I'm going to unwatch this page, I think. Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] 11:02, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think it means we're too lax in handing out admin powers. I think we're too lax about retracting them from individuals who choose to use their powers on the basis of whims rather than as dictated by site policy or voter consensus. If this keeps up, we'll end up regressing into delete/undelete wars between administrators. Sarge Baldy 11:12, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I am now the proud creator of the Userbox:Anti ACLU and Userbox:Anti UN. These pages are NOT templates and therefore are NOT subject to TEMPLATE POLICIES. They are now displayed in the appropriate place on Wikipedia:Userboxes/Regional Politics and Wikipedia:Userboxes/Beliefs#Politics, respectively. You know I must admit, I am a terrible programmer and much thanks is owed to User:MarkSweep who decided to edit what I posted to his talkpage without telling me. Without that, I wouldn't have learned how to make these pages. Down with Userbox Templates! Long live Userbox Code! Thanks, Mark!  :-) Lawyer2b 01:58, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. - If anybody thinks there is a mistake in the coding syntax, PLEASE PLEASE fix it. I suck. Lawyer2b 01:58, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • That doesn't work; it's been discussed and shot down as an innappropriate compromise and an attempt to game the system. I've tried it, Crotalus horridus has tried it, and the overall consensus that was developed is that, for the purposes of CSD, any page designed to be transcluded is by defination, a template. --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 02:04, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn and Undelete not because i second its idea but because i am against this kind of administrative abuse. First of all, the admin should not use speedy delete when most votes favor keeping. At least, he/she should wait till the end of the week. Second, we should decide to delete or undelete according to the votes not according to the admin's point of view in the debate. As you may have noticed, two or maybe three admins are continuously suggesting userboxes for deletion, then the debate on the userbox is usually seen as moot by the same admins. This is an unacceptable abuse. Third, userboxes differ than wikipedia articles. Most of them express personal attitudes or interests.Thus, they all may be considered divisive in one way or another. Deletion must be merely based on votes. The number of votes can be considered as the result of the debate from users' point of view. I am suggesting a new user box to be added to Wikipedia:Userboxes/Wikipedia : "This user is against admin abuse". what do you think? --Wedian 03:18, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm confused, User:MarkSweep. This whole time you have been deleting divisive templates under policy that regulates them. However, your above statement is a warning not to create divisive userboxes period. From what official policy does that warning originate? Lawyer2b 03:38, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User Anti-ACLU

This user does not support the ACLU.

This template was deleted despite an overwhelming number of the votes to keep (see here). What's more, after all votes were submitted, the Admin who started the deletion process, User:MarkSweep wrote, "The result of the debate was moot. This template was speedy deleted." An admin is implying that the process was irrelevant. I would like the deletion of this template to be reviewed and know if User:MarkSweep's conduct was appropriate for an admin.

Just to clarify: This is what I usually write when closing a discussion early after a speedy deletion, which, by the way, is standard procedure. The part about "The result of the debate was" is supplied by {{tfd top}}. All I did was add the word "moot" and an explanation of what had happened. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 09:22, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Overturn and Relist. (Apologies for the top-posting.) I have been reviewing WP:TFD, and it appears to me that User:MarkSweep "proposes" things he wants deleted, then after a short time period just Speedy-Deletes them anyway, regardless of any consensus or debate. See Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion#Template:User_participant_userbox_war & Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion#Template:user_yellow_amer. Sct72 23:57, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I've userfied both boxes - see User:Userboxes/Anti-UN and User:Userboxes/Anti-ACLU. Thus, CSD T1 no longer applies, but users who wish to either subst: or transclude this content may still do so. (See the proposed policy at Wikipedia:Use of userboxes). This was done in order to avoid the necessity for another lengthy debate rehashing the same arguments over and over again. Can we please avoid yet more tedious, repetitious discussions and get back to writing an encyclopedia? I'm getting sick and tired of this nonsense. Frankly, Wikipedia just isn't fun any more, and I'm not sure how much of my time I want to devote to a community divided by such petty squabbling. Crotalus horridus (TALK • CONTRIBS) 07:46, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Restore in the user namespace. I like Crotalus horridus' compromise. Banish userboxes not directly related to the encyclopedia from the template namespace, but keep them in user namespace so they can be transcluded if necessary. I used to think this would die down on its own, but I'm honestly fed up with Wikipedia. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm seriously considering leaving, and I doubt Wikipedia will continue on for much longer if things remain like this. Johnleemk | Talk 10:39, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion while no fan of unilateralism, this template does nothing to either help us write a better encyclopedia or support our efforts to demostrate our obligation to WP:NPOV.--MONGO 10:47, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn per TfD. While I'm not a fan of userboxes, especially this one (see my sig), consensus indicates that they want it to stay. I would vote delete on a TfD but I wouldn't delete against the wishes of the community. —BorgHunter ubx (talk) 15:59, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn and block MarkSweep for repeated disruption of Wikipedia.  Grue  16:04, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. We don't need a mechanism by which editors with a pronounced anti-ACLU (or anti-anything) bias can contact one another and organise. --Tony Sidaway 16:16, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. Inappropriate; TfD is not strictly a vote; and most of the "keep" "votes" did not conform to TfD "voting"/discussion policy. Monicasdude 16:24, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted POV template. --Doc ask? 16:27, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete/relist Expressing a common POV in dispassionate language is not inflammatory, as I understand the meaning of that word. Saying "User opposes X", where X is the normal name of a major political entity or cause is always fine. Saying "User opposes Nazi, slimy, evil, X" is not. It's simple. By the way, I am a Guardian of Liberty with the ACLU (I've named them in my will), and I accept this as perfectly legitimate. Xoloz 17:07, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Overturn and Relist. TfD is a discussion, not a vote; ergo, since the discussion was overwhelmingly in favor of keeping at the time, since just about none of the arguments of the keep-voters had yet been addressed, and since nobody in the entire discussion had at the time suggested a "speedy-delete" or argued for why the template might be both "inflammatory" and "divisive" (the latter, certainly, seems like a very, very big stretch, and an extremely loose interpretation of "inflammatory" that seems contradictory to Jimbo's comments and the purpose of the new speedy-deletion criterion), it was completely inappropriate to throw all of the discussion into the gutter without even taking the time to first recommend that it be speedy-deleted and see what counter-arguments people could supply, then decide whether to delete or not! This is clear abuse of process, and clearly will cause more harm to Wikipedia than if we simply let the TfD discussion run its course and didn't involve this whole other ridiculous extra level of bureaucracy and controversy just because some admins don't feel like bothering to talk to the lowly non-admins who voted before annihilating a template they personally dislike! If the template said "This user thinks that the ACLU is a scumsucking Satanspawn", the speedy would be understandable; but just not supporting an organization is not "inflammatory", and even the case that it's "divisive" is not as black-and-white as its being made out to be; grey-area templates like this are exactly what TfD discussions are for, so even if you think this template should be deleted, userfied, or whatever, you should still vote to overturn this deletion and let the template be given the proper amount of time. Otherwise, we just set up a precedent where any user-template that an admin dislikes can be speedied, without providing any argument whatsoever first and completely disregarding the entire vote and discussion, making it an utter waste of time to even bother to voice your opinion or argue for your interpretation of TfD policy; you'll just be ignored if any admin disagrees with you—that admin will simply override everyone's votes rather than providing a counter-argument. TfD will change from a discussion of templates to a "which side has the most admins to muscle the other side around"; that's not a good thing. Why stir up such a hornet's-nest of contentious, divisive disputes and edit-warring over such a ridiculous matter when we could simply let the discussion over a silly old colored rectangular box-o'-POV run its course, then decide what to do? The benefits of speedy-deletion do not, in this case, outweigh the harm it will cause. -Silence 17:21, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. Divisive, harmful to the project. Stop poisoning the well. --Improv 18:18, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted all templates which criticize or disparage their subject. This is an encyclopedia. — Knowledge Seeker দ 19:14, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. There is no way that 'I am against X' userboxes are helping create an encyclopedia. Therefore, given the problems they cause, we have to dispense with them. The Land 19:23, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted, per all the above. Christopher Parham (talk) 20:15, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User against Iraq War

This admin is deleting templates without a consensus for deletion and adding speedy delete tags to userboxes which are already under discussion. This has resulted in the speedy deletion of several userboxes. This is censorship and an abuse of admin power. It is vandalism, and I put up a notice on Vandalism in Progress about him, though it was removed. --Revolución (talk) 20:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • A recent example is Template:User against Iraq War, which was put up for TfD. Voting at time of Tony's deletion was 13 keep, 4 delete [4]. --Fang Aili 20:11, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • You seem to be confused about the purpose and nature of WP:TFD. It is not a vote. It is a debate. You are encouraged to provide arguments that address the deletion criteria for templates set out on WP:TFD. The majority of the "keep" opinions failed to address the criteria and thus contributed nothing to the debate. --MarkSweep 

(call me collect) 07:09, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment. Voting in a vacuum I'd support this without having to see the content. The title itself is clearly divisive, presenting an obvious POV without telling others "I can help you based on my expertise." But I must say... admins should remember how much it sucks for a non-admin to see admins making sudden decisions out of process. It seems TonyS deleted this, and I have voted in favour of his deletions here, but I do want to emphasize how annoying it is when fD gets ignored because some admin was "in that mood." It really does suck. You vote yay or nay on some fD page (or maybe you're just watching) and then you realize an admin can speedy and haul it over here (where, largely, only admins comment) regardless of any emerging consensus on the relevant fD page. Thus, I don't think I support Revolucion's ideas here, but I see his frustration. Marskell 21:51, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete The concensus apparently reached was "speedy delete". However, looking through the discussion, nobody had suggested a speedy deletion, and that the huge majority of people voted keep. If this is going to happen all the time, why dont we just abolish discussions? - • | Đܧ§§Ť | • T | C 22:16, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted when discussions go directly against policy then admins have the responsibility to follow the policy even if that is out of process - process is to support policy not create an environment to individually ignore/overturn policy when it suits a specific group of users. Trödel&#149;talk 22:38, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete and RFC the admins responsible what is the point of having a Tfd process if admins just arbitrarily delete templates they happen to dislike Cynical 22:41, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted TfD is broken. Speedies are exceptional deletion criteria that do not require to establish consensus. --Doc ask? 22:49, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't go there. Wait until the userbox debate is finished, then consider them all en bloc. This whole busienss is taking over the entire project. - Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] 22:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've created the template in my own userspace. The fascists here will probably try to censor it again, but I won't let them. --Revolución (talk) 23:22, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete as per Vargher Mike McGregor (Can) 23:32, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kill it with fire, as per Vargher. Five article edits and 60 user page edits illustrate his misconceptions: Wikipedia is NOT a blog, free hosting service, or billboard for promoting one's personal beliefs. MySpace and Blogspot are that-a-way if that's what he wants; this place is supposed to be a freaking encyclopedia. --Calton | Talk 00:45, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Someone's in the dark. The entire WP:UBX project is littered with personal beliefs! Just look at the Politics and Beliefs section, with userboxes advocating Taiwan independence and various other little things. Userboxes are the expression of our personal beliefs, and have caught on like wildifre on many user pages. Clearly the "this is an encyclopeida" is moot, as is the personal attack against the user in question. - Hbdragon88 04:33, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Someone's in the dark. True -- but it's not me. Check out User:Vargher's contributions: compare all edits with article edits: Time and edits enough to create/install 79 or so user boxes, and only enough time for 5 article edits. Do you understand the point, or are diagrams required?
      • The entire WP:UBX project is littered with personal beliefs! I need to ask: did the "Mom! [my brother/my sister/the next-door-neighbor's kid] does it!" rationale work when you were a child? No? Why should it work now? --Calton | Talk 06:35, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • The sheer number of userboxes on UBX shows that userboxes are here to stay and that they are being used as a medium to express opinions. You wrote that Wikipedia is not a "billboard for promoting one's personal beliefs." The userboxes project proves otherwise. Don't throw the "They do it!" argument at me. - Hbdragon88 21:09, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • Don't throw the "They do it!" argument at me. Why? Are you disavowing it now? Because, you know, that's precisely what you're saying; your handwaving and sputtering about numbers doesn't change what's at the core of your argument. --Calton | Talk 02:42, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. Valid deletion per CSD T.1. Ignore all opinions here based on out-of-process arguments such as "censorship" or "free speech". --MarkSweep (call me collect) 01:35, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete This userbox is neither divisive nor inflammatory. Its deletion was both divisive and inflammatory. --Daniel 02:51, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    It's not right wing pv pimping... he has gone after boxes that the right would support as well. Jwissick(t)(c) 06:07, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    If "he" in this instance refers to me, my political compass readings are as follows:
    Economic Left/Right: -8.75
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.69
    The accusations of edit warring, vandalism and whatnot are equally fatuous. --Tony Sidaway 10:29, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Overturn. I do not agree with the message, but I will fight for the right to say it. IMHO I think speedy is beng abused by admins who can't get consensus. Jwissick(t)(c) 06:07, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Extremely Strong, Emphatic Overturn - The constant speedy deletion and vandalism of userboxes bya small number of admins has got to stop, and it has to stop immediately. This template must be restored and an RfC started. This is getting to the point, or perhaps beyond the point, of de-adminship for trolling and incessant WP:POINT violations. —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 06:11, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted all user boxes which disparage or criticize their subject. Needlessly divisive and inflammatory. This is an encyclopedia. — Knowledge Seeker দ 06:31, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted the deletion of this template WAS disruption of Wikipedia, however this userbox sucks and I almost deleted it myself when I saw it on TfD.  Grue  07:02, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn Deletion This is hilarious. 1) I'm one of the ones who should feel inflamed and felt cut off from his fellow wikipedian by this "inflammatory and divisive" template because I totally disagree with it. The only thing is...I'M NOT! I enjoy hearing a opposite point of view and respect those who have them. I wish people would stop chicken-littling that wikipedia is going to end if people have POV's on their user pages. Edit wars don't start over that, they start over what's in ARTICLES. 2) Although I personally think free speech is a good enough reason to keep, I'm one of the few people who posted what I think are "wikipedia project-related" reasons why these templates are good, which User:MarkSweep "swept under the rug" by not responding. I said, "this template lets users know you have a strong personal opinion regarding a subject, that you may be interested in editing articles related to it, and may be source of information regarding what adherents to that opinion believe." 3) I say deleting these templates is moot because it's just a big exercise in masturbation. Your big reason for deleting them is that you don't want "divisive, inflammatory POV" on userpages? Well, if you delete them, people will just use the raw code (or prose!) to recreate them on their userpages. What then? Lawyer2b 07:54, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I can't help but chuckle. Those Admins who want all these "nasty POV Templates" deleted to keep the wikicommunity together coudln't have created more bitterness and division with their actions if they tried. Pray tell gentlemen...will the beatings continue until morale improves? Lawyer2b 08:18, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Restore in the user namespace. (Second choice: Keep deleted.) I like Crotalus horridus' compromise that was used in some of the other DRV debates. Banish userboxes not directly related to the encyclopedia from the template namespace, but keep them in user namespace so they can be transcluded if necessary. I used to think this would die down on its own, but I'm honestly fed up with Wikipedia. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm seriously considering leaving, and I doubt Wikipedia will continue on for much longer if things remain like this. Johnleemk | Talk 10:40, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion while no fan of unilateralism, this template does nothing to either help us write a better encyclopedia or support our efforts to demostrate our obligation to WP:NPOV.--MONGO 10:49, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete.helohe (talk) 13:30, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted POV template. --Doc ask? 16:30, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Overturn and Relist. This is not a review of the template, it's a review of the process; TfD is for discussion of whether templates should be deleted, and Deletion Review is for reviewing whether the deletion was merited at that point of time or not, not as a way to hide TfD revotes from the majority of voters whenever an admin gets frisky. It is absurdly clear that this deletion was very poorly-done: see the discussion at Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion#Template:User_against_Iraq_War_2 for details. Not a single user had voted for "speedy delete", no one had brought up why and how it might be "divisive" or "inflammatory", there was a large consensus to keep, and even the people who voted "delete" did not vote "speedy". If those voters were mistaken or misinformed or unaware of the , then the correct next step to take would be to vote and explain your view, arguing for speedy-delete and then waiting to see if your argument gains support. It is not to take abrupt and callously dismissive unilateral action, which has infinitely more potential to be divisive and offensive to the majority of users than some dinky little userbox ever could. What's going to drive valuable editors away is abuse of process like this and admins' apathy to it (as demonstrated by the number of "endorse" votes here), not ridiculous brightly-colored rectangles. Even if you believe this should be deleted (in fact, I personally wouldn't really mind such an outcome, after the TfD runs its course!), you should vote to overturn this so it can be given its proper length of time; if you believe it to be divisive and inflammatory (which a large number of people clearly do not, so this speedy-delete is disputed and merits a full vote!), then explain why. Whatever happened to these things being discussions rather than votes? Instead, it seems now that they're neither: both the votes themselves and the contents of the TfD are being completely disregarded simply because an admin disagrees with them (but apparently doesn't have enough respect for any of the voters to reply to their points and form a counter-argument, rather than using force to silence them). Pointless, controversial speedy-deletes like this are making the entire TfD process look like a silly little diversion for non-admins to waste their time on while admins just speedy-del whatever the hell they feel like rather than voting or commenting. It's contributing much more to the increasingly hostile, aggressive, and intolerant atmosphere around here than the userboxes themselves are! -Silence 16:53, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. Divisive, this is not the place. --Improv 18:19, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. There is no way that 'I am against X' userboxes are helping create an encyclopedia. Therefore, given the problems they cause, we have to dispense with them. Furthermore, people who go round calling their opponents 'fascists' in this sort of debate do nothing to help their own cause. The Land 19:27, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Land, you and others arguing along this line fail to realize: Wikipedia is edited by people. People who happen to have their likes and dislikes. Userboxes that allow persons to associate as a group, or make their beliefs known, and which give them a sense of place within the Wikipedia project may not be considered encyclopedic by you, but they are encyclopedic for those who use them in that they provide a small measure of reward for our work.
In the end, you are the ones shooting yourselves in the feet. A volunteer project is only as good as its willingness to accomodate its volunteers. --Daniel 05:12, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Volunteer projects are not about self-glorification of the volunteers, or about giving them a chance to push a view. Try going to a soup kitchen or a homeless shelter and handing out political buttons or otherwise "expressing yourself" that way, and I think you may change your views on this. The thing that a lot of people on this deletion review board don't understand is that their userpage is not their property. It's there at the tolerance of the project. We're not trying to storm your home to censor your thoughts -- your userpage is not your personal webpage or anything of the sort. --Improv 18:22, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Jimbo has also discouraged going on a mass userbox deletion spree as counterproductive. --James S. 21:29, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User USA Police State

Taxman (talk · contribs) deleted it without a consensus. If I counted right, there are 29 keep votes and 18 delete votes (correct me if I missed some for either keep or delete). --Revolución (talk) 18:56, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • As an ardent opponent of this twit person, I do fear my country may become a police-state, but this template is clearly inflammatory. Summary deletion is appropriate, and I endorse it. (Note that I have no opinion on userboxes generally, working case-by-case.) Xoloz 19:15, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just recreate it. Only this time make a subst and a template. If certain people want to ignore rules, it's only a matter of time before everybody does. Karmafist 20:59, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually I restored it upon seeing the discussion. I stand by it clearly meeting the speedy deletion criteria, but more importantly, it having no positive value for Wikipedia. - Taxman Talk 21:02, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Uphold deletion. The template is divisive and unsuitable content for a userpage. Wikipedia is NOT a soapbox, nor a free webspace provider. Physchim62 (talk) 21:09, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete IMMEDIATELY No consensus was reached upon the deletion. If administrators will continue to implement a "delete first, think later" policy, Wikipedia will indeed resemble a police state. I refuse to acknowledge "Jimbo said so" as a valid argument for deletion. Jimbo Wales is the founder of Wikipedia, but WE are the community. WE build the encyclopedia, so WE decide. Vargher 21:22, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I just had my Template:User no-wiki-police-state userbox deleted in no more than 5 minutes after creation. This indeed has become a police state and we are all the targets. Undelete. The common editors seem to be in support of userboxes, admins seem to be the ones most opposed. I don't see why admins should have all the power, seeing as there are far more of us than of them on this encyclopedia. Furthermore, there is no clear policy on userboxes, so why must they delete all of them, especially this quickly? We really can't let this happen, and I agree with what is said above, we build it, we decide. If the majority of the community wants to get rid of them, then fine, I'll get rid of them, but we can't just let admins go against consensus and delete evey userbox that has an opinion expressed. The Ungovernable Force 07:37, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User admins ignoring policy

Template was listed on TFD and closed on February tenth as NO CONSENSUS by User:Splash. However, User:Tony Sidaway saw fit to delete it as T1 after this decision was made. I recommend that this template be undeleted. --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 05:25, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    • That is a load of rubbish. There is never going to be an objective way to say a userbox is "activist" or not. Better to allow people to be honest about their views and organize above the table, than to have to deal with covert under-the-table activism. --Daniel 01:08, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. Divisive. David | Talk 21:38, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Deleted very clearly divisive.--Alhutch 04:27, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete Its the admins that are being divisive in the community, this userbox is just a response to it. Why should admins be allowed to speedy everything, and not go by policy? They shouldnt, and we should be able to respond, and this is all we have seeing as nobody is doing anything to discipline little dictator admins who dont do their job properly - • | Đܧ§§Ť | • T | C 10:24, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted per Jdoorjam. -- nae'blis (talk) 17:32, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete - "divisive and inflammatory" is what admins achieve by deleting harmless userboxes. Open POV is the key to NPOV in articles. Admins acting unilaterally helps no one. Deano (Talk) 17:54, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete - especially because of TS' actions. --Victim of signature fascism | help remove electoral corruption 00:45, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion, this was a valid deletion per T1. JYolkowski // talk 03:33, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete and permanently block all these divisive and inflammatory admins. --Revolución (talk) 19:24, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete, restore history - It is clear that there is an attempt by certain admins to disrupt userpages on Wikipedia and aggrivate editors in order to prove a point, which is a clear violation of WP:POINT. --Dragon695 06:23, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Please assume good faith. You know, they may honestly think that deleting these templates is a good idea. You misunderstand what "don't disrupt Wikipedia to make a point" means. It means "don't do things that no-one could justify in order to make your point", not "don't do stuff that some people might not like". Sam Korn (smoddy) 22:45, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • I really want to, but nobody has fully explained why the normal process of TfD can not happen. If they think deleting the template is a good idea, then send it to TfD. There is absolutely no reason, whatsoever, to rush it to deletion. The only purpose it serves is to piss off the people who use the template. It isn't a copyvio and it isn't libel, so I see no urgancy to be delt with in such a manner. The only logical conclusion is that they don't like the results of TfD. Those on my side have been accused of vote stacking and other bad faith activities. Seems only fair to assume that they have some alterior motive as well. --Dragon695 23:52, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Because of the sudden addition of CSD T1,it's not that the TfD process cannot happen, but only that it does not have to happen. Let me be clear that I am not advocating for this point of view, but only laying out the policy ramifications. By Order Of Jimbo, suddenly it's alright to speedy delete templates regardless of where they are in other processes. Administrators can now delete a n article template if they feel it is divisive, whatever that means. Unfortunately, CSD T1 is very vague, and that ultimately has been the root of the controversy, not the deletions "out of process". For instance, it is not controversial that an administrator can also speedy delete a nonsense or non-notable bio article that's in AfD without waiting for consensus, too. If I went and wrote a King JDoorjam article and someone sent it to AfD, an administrator could immediately delete it, even if I was vehemently arguing that it was relevant, because the admin would be guided by WP:BIO, which lays out precisely what is needed to verify notability or non-notability. Here, there is no such guidance. This is why, IMHO, Jimbo (blessed be His beard, or whatever) made a mistake in pushing this very open-ended policy on the community, and then saying, "here, incorporate this into your community values." Again, the controversy isn't the concept (I think we all agree that, at some level a userbox can go too far), or, again, the speedeletionation of templates, but the completely vague meaning, or lack thereof, of CSD T1. If we all (or any of us) had some idea what we were actually talking about, there would be far less strife. I'm not sure that exactly answered your question, but I hope it was somewhat helpful. Regards, JDoorjam Talk 00:44, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • Yes, this is very helpful indeed. I don't fully agree with what you said about the guidelines being too vague, and would also like to point out that T1 doesn't apply to polemical articles, but you're absolutely right on the process issue. The comparison to AfD is a good one: what happens there quite often is that someone will nominate an article on AfD, its creator will argue for keeping it, then somebody else comes along and points out that the article violates certain policies and is in fact a speedy deletion candidate. In such a case, the article will be deleted and the discussion closed, even though there may be keep votes. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 01:18, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'm sure that you can understand, however, that people could rationally make this judgement. In any case, in lack of evidence of bad faith, good faith should be assumed. You are assuming bad faith in the absence of good faith. Sam Korn (smoddy) 19:04, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • I'll work harder to AGF, then =).
  • Undelete. This needs to be settled through political concensus and not individual interpretation. If some are so opposed to userboxes then perhaps there needs to be a Wikipedia wide poll to settle the issue once and for all. Of course, Jimbo can by right make a dictate if he so chooses but others trying to divine his will are doing everyone a disservice. --StuffOfInterest 18:19, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete. helohe (talk) 00:26, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete as above MiraLuka 05:34, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kinda funny how the admins keep deleting anything critical of what they do? I say undelete the userboxes and delete speedy deletion of userboxes, since it's just a tool for admins to abuse. The Ungovernable Force 07:40, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. This is divisive and not conducive to the creation of neutral encyclopedic content. enochlau (talk) 11:30, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete JSIN 12:19, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Archived discussions

See /Archive

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Userbox_debates/Archived&oldid=40163324"