Talk:Castleroid

I've done some reformatting for better readability. Also moved LoZ to other since there was only one game in the series mentioned. I believe some earlier Zelda games are non-linear too, but that's for someone who's certain to add.

Metroid Fusion - disputed entry, since the game has both explorational elements and a well-ordered plot

Comments like these shouldn't be in the article, it's better to make clear criteria for nonlinearity in a whole game and then discuss those. Since most adventure games strive towards nonlinearity the demands should be pretty high, I believe.

As for my additions I'm uncertain about Shadowgate, you can only pass the troll bridge twice and it cuts the world in half. Check it out and do as you please…

Arru 23:13, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Metroid Fusion, and the idea of nonlinearity in general.

I think Metroid Fusion definitely counts. Very few non-linear games can be perfectly non-linear, and certain things have to happen in some defined order anyway. Besides, Fusion has quite a lot of explorational elements in it, and can become very non-linear at the end; that's more than can be said of Castlevania: Circle of the Moon, which only really has two possible paths (through or skipping the sewers) plus the exploration component.

Come to think of it, most of these games aren't really all that non-linear. Apart from sequence breaking, the greatest non-linearity in games like these comes purely from the exploration aspect--the fact that you can take your character all around some area and "discover" where stuff is. Unlike games with well-defined levels where you take your character from the start to the finish, these games require you to figure out where you're supposed to go next. That's what I personally think makes these games fun. The fun is first wondering what I can do next now that I have the double-jump, or the anti-gravity jump, or the power bomb, and then discovering those places that I can newly access. Fusion offers quite a lot of explorational liberty--although probably not in chunks as big as entire areas of Dracula's castle, but in small pieces, but part of the challenge is to find your way out of plot twists where the computer doesn't give you directions. You're still forced to find your way around, and to figure out how to make things work.

Maybe it would be more useful to rename this genre simply "exploration" or something like that, without confusing it with other non-linear game genres like role-playing games. ~GMH talk to me 01:46, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think "non-linear exploration" is pretty good. If it's just "exploration", what would set it apart from the main genre "adventure games"? Or is this article specifically about non-linear console games? In that case it needs a different title.

I do have a problem with the way the list is compiled; there are loads of non-linear adventure games but the list together with the "Castletroid" section gives the impression that the only non-linear exploration games are Metroid, Castlevania and maybe a few more, which is far from true! I would say that, at a minimum, half the games in Category:Adventure games would fit on this list. Perhaps then it would be better to give a few examples of (series of) games)?

Are there really any genre apart from RPG- and adventure games where linearity matters? I mean, Gravitar for instance is a non-linear arcade game but it is not such a desirable trait in this genre, it often makes the game less of a challenge. Perhaps it would be better to merge this with the main article on non-linearity as examples of notable non-linear games.

Arru 09:27, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Non-linear exploration" or "Castletroid"

Following this definition

Non-linear exploration is a genre of video games (or a sub-genre of adventure games) whose main characteristic is allowing the player to explore (with some constraints) a complex, non-linearly-mapped world (either 2D or 3D) without being given a direction to follow.

this article applies to most or all adventure games that involve exploration, since it is pretty meaningless in a linear gameplay.

Because of the intense focus on console games, in particular the Metroid and Castlevania series, I get the feeling that this article is not about "good adventure games" (non-linearity is usually a mark of quality for adventure games) but much more specific: "games that are Metroid- or Castlevania-like". That is, platform-ish games with a strong non-linear exploration layout, and where the access to new areas comes from power items and not objects that have to be used in a certain, unknown way.

The expression "nonlinear exploration" is generally used for these games, but also for adventure games like Myst and this conforms with the definition. But, in this broader sense Metroid and Castlevania are just two game series out of an enormous amount of non-linear adventure games.

As I see it this article currently balances between two different meanings:

An article on Castletroid games, which needs a less general name, more specific definition (and removing Myst et. al.)
A very biased exemplification of non-linear adventure games (non-linearity without exploration does not make much of an adventure)

Or something I've missed, in that case please enlighten me!

Arru 09:59, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the so-called "Castletroid" games are definitely a genre or sub-genre of something. I just noticed that no one had yet coined a term to refer to this type of game, so I came up with one myself.

As I stated above, this might not be the best term to describe the Castletroids. I would be open to suggestions on what else this genre should be called, since I also think it leaves loopholes for certain adventure-RPG games.

I've only played the Metroid and Castlevania games listed here (except Dawn of Sorrow, Prime, and Prime 2, which I trust to be similar enough), plus Eternal Daughter and LoZ:aLttP. I don't know what Myst, or anything in the MacVenture series is like. However, I don't want my grouping to be too rooted in Castlevania/Metroid traditions, so I try to keep and open mind about other games posted here, but there are certain thing that definitely aren't part of this genre--maybe a Potter Stewart-type test would be of use here--"I know it when I see it", he said of pornography. ~GMH talk to me 17:35, 27 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merge/delete

Some googling on "nonlinear exploration" shows, indeed, that it is a very general term used in its literal meaning and it does not seem to be tied to the Castletroid games in particular - not too much of a surprise since you came up with it yourself ;-) It is also a bit redundant since "linear exploration" wouldn't amount to much of a game.

Seems like Action-adventure game is the genre for these games, they are all listed there. Let's merge relevant parts of this article to that one.

Arru 08:25, 30 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It seems the case is pretty clear that "non-linear exploration" is an unsuitable name for the game genre that appears to be identical to action-adventure game.

I've commenced the merger. Problem is, I'm unable to find much to merge into the action-adventure article. Some, I believe, goes into the linearity article though. I've redirected all (two) links to the linearity page. This article should eventually be removed, but I would like your (Mr. Harvey) approval before doing a delete.

Arru 22:56, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

AfD

This article was nominated for deletion on February 1, 2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Name change + cleanup

The deletion discussion showed that several people disapprove of the name and content combination of this article.

I propose the article be moved to Castleroid and edited to reflect the more specific meaning of this term: an umbrella term for later games of the Castlevania and Metroid series only, whose gameplay can be considered non-linear.

Sources for this definition: [1] [2] [3] Arru 22:10, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The first is just someone's blog, the second was written by some student, and the third defintion only says it's "a nickname that was coined because it combines classic Castlevania gameplay with Metroid-style item and ability collecting". These sources have no merit. Guermantes 21:08, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm making the move to "Castleroid", the most used term of the three mentioned. I will also rewrite the page, complete with sources! Arru 14:12, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article is agenda pushing, full of misinformation

The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past was not published on the NES. It is also not similar to "Castleroids" as it PREDATES them. (This game and a few other games are quite simply not "very similar" to the Castleroid formula.)

It's also rubbish to say the Metroid series is a type of Castleroid because, let's face it, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night took the formula from Super Metroid. The term "Castleroid" is quite simply not applied to the wide range of games that are listed in this article. One cannot take a term and make up things about it. The fact is that sources can never be cited to support all these erroneous statements. No such (reputable) source exists! The term is just a slang word used by the Castlevania fan community and a few publications (quite often Metroidvania, in fact) with the intent to show that the style of game was inspired by Metroid.

This article is a gross misuse of Wikipedia, and should be nominated for deletion again. It's willfully spreading misinformation written by Castlevania fans that have a "pro-Castlevania " agenda to push! (That agenda? To re-appropriate the Super Metroid formula for Castlevania and downplay Metroid's significant role in shaping every 2D Castlevania game beginning with SOTN.) Guermantes 21:05, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]