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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Instantnood (talk | contribs) at 08:55, 28 February 2006 (→Naming conventions for lists). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Archived discussions:

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Some recurrent discussions have dedicated talk pages. For discussions about the appearance of people's names Please use Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Chinese)/Names.

..of Taiwan → ..of the Republic of China

continued from Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Chinese)/archive4#..of Taiwan .26rarr.3B ..of the Republic of China and #Solution

Moved to Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Chinese)/NPOV#..of Taiwan → ..of the Republic of China — Instantnood 11:05, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

Solution

Moved to Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Chinese)/NPOV#Solution — Instantnood 11:05, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

..of China or ..of the PRC → ..of mainland China

Moved to Wikipedia talk:Naming_conventions_(Chinese)/NPOV#..of China ''or'' ..of the PRC → ..of mainland China

Xiong's moves

Despite the lack of any support whatsoever, Xiong continues to move PRC/ROC/SAR-discussions to Talk:PRC vs ROC, as part of his proposal outlined above. In the above proposal, Xiong has also expressed his clear disregard for the policies of consensus and NPOV.

I've reverted this page three times already. If anyone wishes to continue restoring the content Xiong is moving out, please help me out and do so. Thanks in advance. -- ran (talk) 07:28, Mar 25, 2005 (UTC)

This no longer applies. -- ran (talk) 06:12, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)


Politics/Parties/Elections

Under the non-disputed portions of the current NPOV section, it is preferable to use the actual name of the political entities, ie: PRC, ROC, Hong Kong, Macau. I found most of this stuff was organized under "mainland China", because 10 days ago (ahem) someone (ahem) moved everything there. This caused "Elections in mainland China" to appear in lists of countries, which is not OK.

I emptied the mainland and recreated all the PRC categories. Plus, I tried to remove any plain old "China" category that sat alone. Or, I disambiguated it with NPOV explanatory text on the category page itself that "China" was not a single entity... blah blah blah. See Category:Political_parties_in_China. PRC, ROC, HK, and Macau appear as equals in these lists. I accept this because of the disclaimer text.

There is a category, "Youth Wings of Chinese Political Parties" that has existed for quite awhile that was linked from a parent category Category:Youth wings of political parties this listing as "Chinese" is entirely POV as the only article there is in the PRC. Either it needs a lot of expansion and explanatory text or some other way of organizing this. I'm open to taking the only article there, renaming it to "... of the PRC" and putting it directly in the parent category, I am not sure the maintainers of that parent category find that amenable.

Who wrote this? Can you sign it?
PRC, ROC, HK, and Macau appear as equals in these lists. -- don't you see something wrong with this? Hong Kong and Macau are administrative divisions of the PRC. -- ran (talk) 20:32, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

Size of this article

It's 230k, which is getting impossible to edit. Can we move that huge discussion to /NPOV?

Chinese surnames on Wikipedia

If you're interested in working on how Chinese surnames should be presented on Wikipedia, please comment at Talk:Chinese surname#Chinese surnames on Wikipedia. Thanks. — Instantnood 13:55, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

Naming convention vs. Manual of Style

The "Political NPOV" section doesn't seem seem to be even largely about article naming conventions, but about style and usage, which is beyond the scope of of this namespace. It ought to confine itself to guidelines on which articles names should use the terms "China", "mainland China", or "PRC", etc. Alai 16:30, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Eras and Emperors

[I moved this post from the main project page since it was incorrectly posted there --Umofomia 23:19, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)]

I was thinking of including all events of an Emperor's reign into the Emperor's article itself, regardless of direct involvement from the Emperor. For example, during the reign of the Shunzhi Emperor, the Manchus took over Beijing, but it had little to do with the Emperor himself but was much the work of Dorgon and a couple Han Chinese Generals. This way a continuous line of articles could eventually compose the entire History of China series by Era Name. The problem I see, however, is the fact that other than Qing and Ming Dynasty Emperors, there can be several era names for one Emperor. Should we consider having separate articles for each era name? Furthermore, several era names can exist at the same time for various rulers. Any ideas?

Colipon+(T) 22:37, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Mmmm.... a very interesting idea! :D I'd suggest though that you use just one article for each Emperor with multiple era names, or else some of those Tang Dynasty emperors are really going to be chopped up into tiny bits...
This is truly a cool idea, and I think if combined with a few aids (e.g. the bar at the bottom providing a continuous chain of links; better designed timelines) we would get a very comprehensive description of Chinese history.
The era names can probably be put into the year articles (1, 2, etc.). We can put Chinese historical events there too. -- ran (talk) 00:30, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
Excellent Ran. If you can agree with this idea then I can begin with Qing Dynasty stuff, which is relatively simple compared to Tang Emperors with about 25 era names. But before I start, I'm open to suggestions on format. I do think Wikipedians could undertake a huge project on the history of the longest continuous civilization in the world. Colipon+(T) 04:48, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Mmmm... how about a WikiProject? :D Perhaps Wikipedia:WikiProject Chinese history. -- ran (talk) 05:32, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
Great idea. If one of you doesn't start it, I probably will in the near future. Colipon+(T) 01:38, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Cantonese naming conventions

One thing that occured to me while working on several Cantonese and Hong Kong related articles was that Wikipedia lacks a clear naming convention for Cantonese. Obviously for placenames we use the official spelling and for people we choose their official or most commonly used name. And we keep well established spellings like dim sum. But what about for less well-established terms like Chaan-teng or Poon choi? When naming an article, what system do we use? There's multiple Cantonese romanization systems in existence, Barnett-Chao, Jyutping (used by the Linguistic Society of Hong Kong, Yale romanization (used more often by western academics), the official Guangdong_Romanization, among others, and none of them are dominant. We should have some kind of consistent and systematic naming convention to avoid confusion and as a guideline for starting new Cantonese-related articles. I've mostly been using Yale, but what the Standard Cantonese says really is true: most Cantonese speakers, including me, don't understand most of the Romanization system, and I'm disinclined to learn them until there's a system that's being consistently used.--Yuje 11:59, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

There's never any well-established system to transliterate Cantonese terms into English. In Hong Kong the process is largely done by convention. If there is already an established English name for a certain item, others follow. For transliteration, it is heavily influenced by the system used by the Hong Kong Government. For food, for instance, however, it is usually done by literal translation.
Frankly it is not easy to have a clear convention to transliterate on Wikipedia like using Pinyin for Mandarin and place names in mainland China. There are many already established names. — Instantnood 15:35, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
  • Not only is it not easy, but sometimes "official" government terms get multiple transliterations. This is very obvious hiking around the parks when you notice several english/romanized spellings for the same place. For article titles, just use whatever seems most obvious or plain and make redirects for the rest. Thats what I do. Several native Cantonese speakers here sometimes fix up things obviously broken and/or add the characters. Contribute what you know! Others can help fix it up. SchmuckyTheCat 03:32, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • There is a dispute link on the article space with no clear link herein. It would be nice if someone fixes the TOC to reflect that discussion, not to mention the cross link should then be adjusted 'autofind' to the appropriate subheading. As it is, for all I know, the item has been moved per one of the references above and this is no longer the proper talk page. It is certainly not obvious!
User:Fabartus || Talkto_FrankB 1 July 2005 18:00 (UTC)

Qing Nobility

I've been editing a lot of late-Qing Dynasty articles lately, and have found certain irregularity when it comes to the naming of Qing Dynasty nobles. I have read about the naming conventions of Chinese nobility on the history standards page, and agree that the naming convention there is appropriate. There are problems, however, when we encounter the Qing Dynasty Nobility. Currently three naming conventions seem to have emerged, and a unified convention should be agreed upon. The problems are set below:

  1. Many Qing nobles of the Imperial clan, especially later in the dynasty, appear in Chinese literature simply with their personal names, i.e. Duanhua (端华) was the Prince Zheng, Sushun was also a Prince, of a lower class, but no one refers to him as "Prince".
  2. Yinxiang and Zaiyuan both held the title "Prince Yi", Zaiyuan being a direct descendant of Yinxiang who inherited the title. He was the 6th in a line of Princes Yi that ended after his execution. No one ever referred to him as the "6th Prince Yi", the way some references are made to Zaifeng, the 2nd Prince Chun.
  3. Contrary to nobles of previous dynasties and western countries, Qing nobles did not have a Place name attatched to their title. As a result, some people are simply known, for example, as "Baron", instead of "Baron of Xiang" etc..
  4. Chinese nobility, seen evidently during the Qing Dynasty, received and lost titles, rose and dropped in ranks quite frequently. People such as Yinsi was the Prince Lian under Yongzheng, but was disgraced after and known as "Ai-qi-na". Their names are therefore inconsistent during most nobles' lives.
  5. The loosely defined rank of "Duke" (公) (国公 Guogong is the Imperial Duke, 民公 Mingong is the Commoner Duke) was usually only given to members of the Imperial lineage. Their style names, however, are seldom known, and it would seem inappropriate to name someone like Zaize (载泽) as the Imperial Duke Zaize.
  6. Nobility titles of peerage outside of the imperial clan, i.e. Marquis, Baron, awarded for honour or valour, are seldom used in naming. Zeng Guofan and Yuan Shikai were both made Marquis of the 1st Rank. Should their titles be included in the article title?
  7. Some titles have a posthumous name attatchment. Yinxiang was the Prince Yi-Xian, Xian being the posthumous name. Zaifeng (Regent under Puyi) was simply the Prince Chun, without a posthumous name because the dynasty collapsed. Further, disgraced and executed nobles are usually not referred to by their titles of nobility.
  8. The title beile (贝勒) is actually a Prince of the Blood, but is roughly translated as "Lord". Which translation to use?
  9. etc. etc. running out of time so I won't list them all

If someone is willing to come up with an efficient naming system for all Qing Nobility, I welcome you to. But due to the overwhelming number of problems faced with these complicated conventions, I will offer a simple Solution: Whereas the vast majority of Qing nobility were best known by their personal names, and the organization of the Qing nobles can be best done through such a method, I propose that all Qing Dynasty nobles simply carry their given name on the title of the articles. This is the naming convention accepted on Chinese encyclopedias like the Cihai. All the titles they have received, during their lifetime or posthumously, can be put in bold in the beginning paragraph.

Example:

Yinxiang, the Prince Yi (Chinese:怡亲王胤祥; Pinyin: Yìnxiáng; Wade-Giles: Y'in-hsiang;; Posthumous name: Xián 贤) (1686—1730) of the Manchu Aisin-Gioro clan was a noble of the Qing Dynasty born as the 13th surviving son to the Kangxi Emperor. His mother was Kangxi's concubine, Min-Fei of the Janggiya clan.

I am open to suggestions as to the composition of the first paragraph.

Meanwhile, separate pages will be created for titles that are inherited successively without change of rank, in a similar fashion to Prince Chun and Prince Yi articles.

—Colipon+(T) 06:46, 11 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In the English Wikipedia, the names should appear as is the custom in English encyclopedias, not as is the custom in Chinese encyclopedias. We should use the names that English-speaking historians of China use. Therefore, Prince Gong, 1st Prince Chun, and 2nd Prince Chun should remain as they are. Nobody in the West knows their given names, and no historian in the West use their given names. They are always referred to as "Prince Gong", or "2nd Prince Chun". For other princes, sometimes western historians use the given names. For example, Sushun is known as "Sushun" by Western historians, he is never referred to by his princely title. So in this case we should use "Sushun". So my opinion is that this should all be a case by case decision, depending on what's the most frequently used name by English-speaking historians: sometimes it will be the princely title (Prince Gong), and sometimes it will be the given name (Sushun). In case of doubt, if you are not sure what's the most used name in English, you can check the Cambridge History of China, or you can run a frequency search on Google (only English webpages). Hardouin 12:53, 13 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Political NPOV section and Wikipedia:Naming conflict

This proposed policy, Wikipedia:Naming conflict, is certainly of interest to people who watch this page. SchmuckyTheCat 17:28, 4 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • That proposal is now current. I'm interested in reaction to the NPOV section here because it does not conform for an article titling convention though it works alright as a subject matter and dab convention.

Examples:

Criterion Taiwan Republic of China China
1. Most commonly used name in English 1 0 0
2. Current official name of entity 1 1 0
3. Current self-identifying name of entity 1 0 0
1 point = yes, 0 points = no. Add totals to get final scores.
Criterion China People's Republic of China mainland China
1. Most commonly used name in English 1 0 0
2. Current official name of entity 1 1 0
3. Current self-identifying name of entity 1 0 0
1 point = yes, 0 points = no. Add totals to get final scores.


As I see it, the entries for "official name" and "self-identifying name" are what's at issue here, and I don't think there are any easy answers. Take the PRC for example: I personally wouldn't say that its official name is literally just "China", though for practical reasons "PRC" can be shortened to "China" (since there's often no ambiguity). The "PRC" is also called "China" deliberately for political reasons, having to do with the One China doctrine and other political concerns. I'd say the only NPOV official name for the PRC is "PRC", in the sense that everyone can presumably agree that "PRC" is indeed the official name. Finally, the concept of a "self-identifying name" is highly problematic: how do we determine objectively what a self-identifying name is? It's not like the PRC goes around saying "hi, my legal name is Wang Jianguo, but you can call me Gator". How do we go about ascribing self-identification to an entire country/state/thingy? We can't just go with whatever the current regime thinks is right, because in the case of the ROC that can change rapidly depending on who's in charge. So is there a verifiable, objective way to assess self-identification? --MarkSweep✍ 23:51, 2 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have no problem with articles being titled with the official longer name People's Republic of China rather than just plain China. Y'all know that, no argument there. You wouldn't say that China objectively calls itself just plain China in English in both official and self-identifying terms? Mark, I like you, but what are you smoking? (please take that in the lighthearted way it is intended)
As to some of your concerns, let's look at the guideline:
The "PRC" is also called "China" deliberately for political reasons
  • Directly addressed in the section about subjective criteria.
  • Wikipedia describes usage, which is that the PRC is China. There is no doubt anywhere that the english speaking world refers to the PRC as China.
how do we determine objectively what a self-identifying name is?
  • Directly addressed in the section about how to find common names, looking at the international organizations it joins, etc.
We can't just go with whatever the current regime thinks is right, because in the case of the ROC that can change rapidly depending on who's in charge
  • Addressed in the guideline. Burma is now Myanmar. When Chen declares independence in the spring of 2008 and drops ROC completely we'll be busy retitling articles to whatever it becomes. For now, they are identifying as Taiwan, even under KMT rule they used Taiwan as shorthand self-ID rather than ROC - look at the bottom of every Happy Meal toy from the 80s.
Regardless with the "score" China and Taiwan are both the choices to use. I'm not advocating we go around renaming articles! At least not without context. Our NC are still right, in political situations we should use official names. I think in some future disputes, this policy can clearly guide us. For now, let sleeping dogs lie. SchmuckyTheCat 01:17, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, if we're not talking about the present naming conventions, I won't debate this any further. If/when we have reason to believe that the real world situation is about to change dramatically, we can revisit these issues. --MarkSweep✍ 01:46, 3 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
What the ROC has been doing is mainly for practical reasons. They cannot export their products to countries which do not officially recognised the ROC with the words "Made in the Republic of China". They also have a need to let consumers be able to differentiate their products from those produced in the mainland. Very often they would put on the words "Made in Taiwan, R.O.C.". Same reasons for putting Taiwan in round brackets on the cover of passports, since ROC citizens are repeatedly mistaken as from the mainland. Do they no longer identify themselves as ROC? I doubt. — Instantnood 06:45, September 3, 2005 (UTC)

(response to SchmuckyTheCat's comment at 17:28, August 4 [1]) SchmuckyTheCat please don't equate and mess up ROC and Taiwan, and mainland China and PRC. ROC = Taiwan plus something, and mainland China = PRC(-administered territories) minus something. "Mainland China" is the official term the PRC government refers to its territories with Hong Kong and Macao excluded. — Instantnood 11:39, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

What official term? Does the PRC call itself "Mainland China" in international organisations despite only representing Mainland China? Did it participate in the Olympics as "Mainland China", when only Mainland Chinese athletes are participating under the Chinese flag? Does the term "Mainland China" appear on its passport, despite the fact that it is only used by Chinese mainlanders? Official term?--Huaiwei 11:54, 12 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Please refer to talk:mainland China. The term is used in laws. Unofficial? Informal? — Instantnood 12:19, September 12, 2005 (UTC)
As far as well all know, plenty of "unofficial" terms are used in law, so since when is the law a definitive crtieria? Vulgarities were used in some court sessions. I suppose that makes them socially acceptable? Official? Formal?--Huaiwei 12:40, 12 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't even matter if it appears in law. It's a term used for a region of the country, not the whole country. SchmuckyTheCat 16:31, 12 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Glad you're saying this. :-D — Instantnood 08:07, 16 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

tones in Chinese words

Tones should be marked in Chinese words (such as proper names), in order to distinguish words written differently but pronounced alike except for the tone. This distinction can be transliterated conventionally either by accent-characters or by numbers. In the alternative to indicating tones, a distinction between words pronounced alike (in, e.g., Mandarin) by citing variant pronunciations in other (e.g., non-Mandarin Chinese) dialects. Any articles in this encyclopaedia written without tones somehow indicated should be deleted by the editor until the authors have made such corrections.

Please sign your postings.
I agree that tones should be marked, assuming that the person writing the article knows what the correct tones are, but I cannot accept the idea that articles should be deleted. That's not the right way to deal with minor problems. Letters with tone marks are available at the bottom of every edit page, they don't interfere with the reading of names by people who don't understand tones, and they don't clutter up the page the way numbers hui4. P0M 06:21, 18 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Taiwan is only the island

Thus, the term "Taiwan" should only be used when referring to the island itself. Furthermore, t

I removed that text. Taiwan uses Taiwan to refer to the entirety of the ROC, as does the rest of the world, as does other parts of the NPOV section of this very article. A prescription against calling the country by it's name is a violation of the higher policies of WP:NPOV and Wikipedia:Naming conflict. Wikipedia describes names and usage of them, it does not prescribe them. This statement is a prescription. The existing sentences that the term ROC is often more accurate still exists in our NPOV section and their are plenty of times when it is a preferred term. A wholesale denial of the use of Taiwan to refer to the whole territories isn't acceptable. SchmuckyTheCat 18:03, 5 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The whole guideline here pertains to unavoidable usage by wikipedia since it is impossible to name an article something else or describe in every instance we mention "Taiwan" what everyone thinks it means. The usage by the Chen Shui-bian administration to refer to the Republic of China synonymously with Taiwan is opposed by Pan-Blue politicians in Taiwan and the PRC government. The endorsement of Chen's position is not NPOV. See [2]. No one disputes that Taiwan is an island while stating that Taiwan is something more than an island (be it a country, state, or province) is disputed and should be avoided.--Jiang 18:41, October 5, 2005 (UTC)
As far as I know many pro-independence people also oppose equating Taiwan with the entirety of the territories the ROC government currently has jurisduction over, since Quemoy, Wuchiu, Matsu, Taiping and Pratas are traditionally not part of Taiwan. All arguments that favour Taiwan independence, such as the recipient of the sovereignty of Taiwan and the Pescadores in the Treaty of Taipei, the way Qing governed Taiwan and the Pescadores, and the attitude of the ROC in the 1920s and 30s towards Taiwan, that Taiwan was left out while all other provinces and territories were listed as part of the ROC, are not applicable to those islands. The official position (well, verbally) of the DPP government is that Taiwan is used for clarification purpose, to avoid the country being misunderstood to be the People's Republic of China. In fact they have not equate Taiwan with the entirety of the present-day extent of the ROC. If Taiwan is going to declare its independence, the status of the other islands would be under question. — Instantnood 19:14, 5 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The convention still states that the official term should be used in a political context - which is correct. I am only removing a statement that the world "Taiwan" can only be used for the island. That prescribes Wikipedia's usage and removes the right of the Taiwanese to define their own identity. The word "Taiwan" often means the entirety of the territory of the ROC - look at the usage of the word Taiwan in this very article. It doesn't repeatedly say "Taiwan plus this island and that island and some other islands", it just uses Taiwan. Does the NPOV section violate it's own NPOV by this? No, it does not. This single sentence violates the WP NPOV policy, the Naming conflicts policy, and our own NC NPOV policy. I'm not asking us to rename anything. I'm simply saying this sentence, that Wikipedia CANNOT use a term, is incorrect.
Subjective criteria (such as "moral rights" to a name) should not be used to determine usage. These include:
  • Does the subject have a moral right to use the name?
  • Does the subject have a legal right to use the name?
  • Does the name infringe on someone else's legal or moral rights?
  • Is the use of the name politically unacceptable?
Thus, the objections of the KMT or the PRC should have no bearing on the usage of a name for the place on Wikipedia.

SchmuckyTheCat 19:23, 5 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

We use the combinations Mainland China/Taiwan/Hong Kong/Macau for neutrality when politics is not the subject so the territorial claims are left ambiguous. see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese). While there is little room for confusion (other than using political labels that are rarely used in economics), it's not NPOV to assert that there are two countries each consisting of their current jurisdictions. I know this is really the case, but saying so is making a politcal statement. I don't see what's wrong with using non-political titles. --Jiang 13:04, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I have traditionally been receptive of this ROC/Taiwan terminology usage as per this convention if it helps to prevent major disagreements between users on which terminology to use. But sometimes I do wonder if it is being applied to the point that it has become an exercise endored only by a tiny few, and not even reflective of common usage outside wikipedia. For example, if we were to take the above statement seriously, anyone using the term "Taiwan" would be deemed as a supporter of TI. I do not think that is a reflection of reality at all on the international stage.--Huaiwei 19:30, 5 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This [3] is the non-political context reason why I removed that sentence. Instantnood is inserting (or objecting to my change from) a political term, ROC, into an article about football on the basis that "Taiwan" can only refer to the island. SchmuckyTheCat 19:32, 5 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Minor modifications to the section on romanisation

I'd like to propose to change the sentence " ..pinyin is the most standard way of romanizing Mandarin Chinese words. " as "..Hanyu Pinyin is the most standard way of romanizing Chinese words, based on their pronunciation in Standard Mandarin.", and " In general, Chinese entries should be in Hanyu Pinyin except.. " as "In general, the titles of Chinese entries should be in Hanyu Pinyin except.." — Instantnood 20:29, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

{{Policy}}

Should this page be tagged with the {{policy}} template? — Instantnood 20:29, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Considering the current state of discussions, is this page fit for it?--Huaiwei 10:52, 9 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's a guideline. SchmuckyTheCat 17:12, 9 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The country names China and Taiwan

Regarding the recent edits on the "short" names of the People's Republic of China and the Republic of China on pages such as List of countries, List of sovereign states and List of countries by continent, I've thought it over and consulted resources on Wikipedia. Here are my thoughts.

As much as I respect many points of the guideline at Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(Chinese)#Political_NPOV, such as "Hu Jintao is the President of the People's Republic of China" is preferred over "Hu Jintao is the President of China." (with the first sentence being more accurate), I think the guideline can be overreaching in some cases, such as for the above pages, and becomes some sort of politically-correct language police.

For example, in the pages above, the "short" name of each country is listed, and the debate is on what "short" names should be used for the PRC and the ROC. I think we can all agree on the following points:

  1. The shortening of the names of the two countries into "China" and "Taiwan" are the most commonly used around the world.
  2. The names "China" and "Taiwan" do not provide any confusion when the context clearly implies that the entities described are countries. (Confusion may arise when naming articles and in some other contexts when China may describe the "greater China region" and Taiwan may describe the island.)
  3. The country name "China" is accepted by the governement and the people of the PRC, and the name "Taiwan" is accepted by the government and most people of the ROC.
  4. The country names "China" and "Taiwan" may be controversial to some people.

Regarding of how to deal with the controversy, please look at Wikipedia:Naming conflict#Dealing with self-identifying terms, and the example cited. What it basically says is that just because the short country names "China" and "Taiwan" are controversial to some does not mean we have to ban them. Wikipedians should be allowed to use them not because these names are endorsed as "accurate", but because they are sufficient to "describe" the countries. On the contrary, not allowing to use them would violate NPOV, as we have decided to conform to the opinions of the people who oppose to those names. As this sentence in Wikipedia:Naming conflict#Dealing with self-identifying terms says:

Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive. We cannot declare what a name should be, only what it is.

Therefore, the pages above merely describe what the "short" names of the countries are, but not what the "short" names of the countries should be. So I believe using the names "China" and "Taiwan" satisfies Wikipedia's policy. Chanheigeorge 08:22, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Neutrality is non-negotiable. We should not use the terms in a manner that might be representing some of the different points of view but not the rest. Yes Wikipedia is descriptive, and therefore we must use the names they're officially known as, not what some people or, specifically, politicians, advocate. As an encyclopædia the aim of Wikipedia is not like that of the press. We have to present neutral facts, and present different points of view in a neutral manner (whereas the press have to take care of how much the audience can understand). — Instantnood 19:25, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
While "Neutrality is non-negotiable", whether something is nuetral or not is.--Huaiwei 10:51, 21 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The coexistence of the People's Republic of China (PRC) and the Republic of China (ROC) is a result of the Chinese Civil War. Even if the PRC is more recognized as the only legal government of China, you cannot say that the ROC, the "Republic of CHINA", is not China. The situation is similiar to the coexistence of the Republic of Korea (ROK) and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK), which is a result of the Korean Civil War. In that case, we use the terms "South Korea" vs "North Korea", or "Korea, R.O." vs "Korea, D.P.R.", to refer to each of them. It doesn't make any sense to refer to one of them with the term "Korea", and the other one with the name of a province that the government occupies. The case of China can be handled in a similar way. A relatively neutral way to give "short names" would be "China, P.R." and "China, R.O.". Last year, that Chen Shui-bian proclaimed that "中華民國的簡稱就是台灣" (the short name of the Republic of China is Taiwan) has triggered some reaction from both mainland China and the pan-blue coalition in Taiwan. Using "Taiwan" as the so-called "short name" is too controversial, and should not be encouraged. - Alanmak 04:55, 22 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Republic of China is almost always referred to as "Taiwan" nowadays, NOT "China". Using "China, R.O." is not accurate because it implies that China is a shortname alias for Republic of China. The short name of the Republic of China is Taiwan. It's not up to us to dispute this. What a-bian said was "中華民國是台灣" (the Republic of China is Taiwan [not merely its short name] - that is the statement in dispute.--Jiang 05:30, 22 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Chinese newspapers

Please join the discussion at WP:CFD#Category:Chinese newspapers to Category:Newspapers in the PRC, regarding how the category shall be renamed. — Instantnood 19:00, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Naming conventions for lists

There are some recent changes and editing disputes to the placement of the "Republic of China" in lists that I think should be settled in written conventions, rather than being edited and reverted repeatedly:

1. alphabetization: Countries in lists can either be alphabetized according to common name (this is the existing convention) or official name. The common name of the "Republic of China" is "Taiwan", and as such, it should be alphabetized under "T". The only excusable alternative is alphabetization under "R" for its common name. However, as a rule, items on a list should be placed where people are mostly likely to look for them. People look for Taiwan under "T", not the Republic of China under "C". Some recent changes use the listing "China, Republic of" imply that "China" is the short form for the "Republic of China". This is outright false. In fact, our average reader born after the 1960s in a anglophone country will probably be unaware of the existence of a "Republic of China" on Taiwan, and will most definately not look for Taiwan under "C".

2. formatting: I find the use of "[[Republic of China]] ([[Free Area of the Republic of China|Taiwan Area]] only)" as excessive. It seems that Wikipedia is applying Chinese Nationalist Party reunificationist ideology to the extreme. According to convention, we present only the common name in the list, but an exception can be made for the sake neutrality and accuracy in providing an alternative name (this being "Republic of China") in addition to the common name ("Taiwan"). The name "Republic of China" is itself a charged term, and when it is used in the context of "Republic of China (Taiwan Area only)", we are using "Taiwan Area" as a qualifier of "Republic of China" and this is nowhere near neutral. I flipped through some old editions of the Republic of China Yearbook from the 1980s and even the KMT-led government under Chiang Ching-kuo does not go into such excess. For example, in the "People" section, there is a heading of "population distribution in the Taiwan Area", followed by text that uniformly uses "Taiwan" to mean the entire "Taiwan Area" such as with use of the phrase "Taiwan's population" followed by a specific numerical figure. If this defunct government has no problem using Taiwan synonymously with Taiwan Area and a cultural and demographic context, why should we?

To comply with existing convention and common sense, I propose:

  • "Republic of China" should be always alphabetized under "T" for accessibility purposes.
  • Due to arguments that "Republic of China" and "Taiwan" are not synonymous, and the existing consensus that "Republic of China" should be used where it is more accurate, we should list the entity as "Republic of China (Taiwan)" in a political/governmental context (such as with a list of government leaders) and as "Taiwan (Republic of China)" in a non-political context (such as with a list of GDPs).

Comments? --Jiang 12:52, 25 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Many lists of non-political/governmental topics does have lots to deal with political matters - For instance, lists of GDP figures are compiled by international organisations which have some sort of inclination. There's no such thing as truly apolitical as long as the lists talk about country. All those politics aside, in the study of political science and international relations, the PRC and the ROC are technically split states like the Koreas and Germanys, although there's huge difference regarding their extent of control and official diplomatic recognition. They both are qualified as sovereign states, and the current convention is to talk about their de facto extent of control, excluding all claimed territories (e.g. Olivenza would not be included in the figures for Portugal, not even footnote is necessary).

As for listing and its name, I agree listing it under #T, and would prefer using "[[Republic of China]] (Taiwan)" for all circumstances. "[[Republic of China|Republic of China (Taiwan)]]" is Chen Shui Bian's terminology and is not NPOV. It's fine to use "Taiwan ([[Republic of China]]])" for apolitical ones, but I don't think it's practical to tell what's apolitical. — Instantnood 16:51, 25 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for raising this issue, Jiang, as the amount of undiscussed changes on this topic have been disturbing. I've been loathe to get involved. I agree with this so far 100%. "China, Republic of" is something that nobody ever uses. If you could, please address 'noods issue about wikilinking and confusion over direct political and indirect political. SchmuckyTheCat 17:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This seems generally reasonable. But I wonder whether there is actually a larger issue here: how is the Korean situation being handled at the moment? I'm not saying we should handle China/Taiwan similarly, but if there are inconsistencies we may want to address them at a higher level under general guidelines for country names. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 22:07, 25 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The Koreas seem to be uniformly alphabetized under 'K'. This doesn't seem to be as much as a problem because this is commonly done elsewhere (eg CIA World Factbook) and "Korea" is commonly (though no more common in English than the "N. Korea"/"S. Korea" variations) used in english as the short form for either entity (or both). Where do you suggest this be discussed?--Jiang 09:26, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, no one looks under "C" for a place commonly known as "Tawian". – Zntrip 22:47, 25 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In deciding whether to use "Republic of China (Taiwan)" or "Taiwan (Republic of China)", we must ask ourselves if using "Republic of China" (on its own) would be more accurate than using "Taiwan" (on its own) and vice versa. When we have a list of navies or list of national governments, "Republic of China" is more accurate because we are referring to an organization that is specific to a political entity called the "Republic of China", and whether this political entity controls only Taiwan or encompasses all of mainland China is not really relevant. However, when we speak of economic indicators, we are basing the figures on a defined territory - this is where "Taiwan" becomes relevant. To equate the Republic of China with the area it controls is making a political statement, and this is not an issue of simple boundary disputes when one can argue that the "Republic of China" is either defunct/illegitimate or to have rightfully encompassed a vast amt of territory beyond Taiwan. --Jiang 09:26, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

" However, when we speak of economic indicators, we are basing the figures on a defined territory - this is where "Taiwan" becomes relevant. " - But that's contradicting with the official policy that Taiwan should not be used to refer to the entirety of the present-day Republic of China, beyond the islands of Taiwan (Taiwan, the Pescadores, Green Island, Orchid Island, etc.). The islands on the other side of the strait, and those in the South China Sea, are not, and has never been part of Taiwan, unless Taiwan is used in place of Republic of China.

" To equate the Republic of China with the area it controls is making a political statement,... " - By the same logic, excluding claims from figures of a state (e.g. Olivenza from figures for Portugal) is also making political statement. And we do exclude the area under North Korean control from South Korean figures, and vice versa, despite their claims. Few states officially recognise and maintain official diplomatic ties with both of them. — Instantnood 08:55, 28 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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