User talk:Drboisclair

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Old talk archived at Archive 1 and Archive 2

Jesus Article

I noticed your recent edit and I wanted to point you to Talk:Jesus/Christian_views_in_intro, in case you haven't had a chance to read it. That said, we're likely to open discussion on "Christian views" this coming week (unfortunatly we've been bogged down in a debate over the historicity of the nonexistence hypothesis...sigh...) Arch O. La 01:45, 20 February 2006 (UTC) PS: I've also organized current discussion into this section. Arch O. La 01:47, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, am I aware that there are different theories of truth vs fact and all that, but it takes an expert to point out A.J. Ayer. ;) The reference to historical revisionism is similar to earlier references to dogma. Rob has shown that he holds his convictions too deeply to be amenable to such arguments. Quite frankly, he perceives himself to be repressed, and thus pushes his own POV ever more forcefully. My own rhetorical gambit was a little more subtle: grant him his definitions of "truth" and "opinion," (similar to Ayer's--again thanks!) then show them to be irrelevant. Arch O. La 20:04, 22 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

PS: His worldview scores show him to be 100% materialistic and 0% idealistic. So he draws a very strict distinction between the physical evidence (largely Christian and Jewish texts) and historian's perception and judgement based on the evidence--then dismisses the whole thing because he has already rejected religion. It's a logical fallacy, but I don't think he sees it. (I hope Rob reads the A. J. Ayer article). Arch O. La 20:14, 22 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm trying to fix the format of the paragraph above, but I did read your note. I actually agree with you, but in the past few days I've been trying to play devil's advocate to help avoid another out-and-out Wikifight. That said, I think if we're going to reach Rob it will take more social psychology than straight rhetoric. Arch O. La 20:18, 22 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The comparison to other historical persons has been tried and has failed (I brought up Socrates). Nice try, though: A. J. Ayer was a much better reference than Sherlock Holmes! Arch O. La 20:39, 22 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I will not clobber you. I'm actually starting to withdraw a little from the debate, although I will continue to follow it ;) Arch O. La 00:04, 23 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the compliment! But, as I told CTSWynekan, sometimes the trouble with striving for the center is that you get caught in the middle. I'm not withdrawing to the degree that Avery Krause did; just enough to clear my head and strengthen my impartiality. ;) Arch O. La 00:12, 23 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That will make you even more fresh and helpful for the sake of accuracy and truth. I am glad that I met you through this website. drboisclair 00:14, 23 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Anybody who calls "Illinois" flatland has never been to Kansas! When you went through Illinois, did you ever stop at St. John's Lutheran Church in Sand Prarie Township (LCMS)? My family attended there until my grandfather (an ALC minister) had a stroke, and we moved to Iowa to be near him. Arch O. La 00:24, 23 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your new User page look.

Dear David: I know your furious with Rob Steadman, but I think your old page was better. It told folk who you are. Bob --CTSWyneken 13:37, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just glad that you were able to confront Rob on his methodology. I have come to realize that we differ from Rob too much to debate anything having to do with religion. I am open to all ideas (even ones I don't agree with), but I prefer civility. Arch O. La 22:49, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Debate about methodology!!! - so you don't want the verifiable and factual? Because that's all I'm trying to achieve and some are trying to block. STate that some things are merely opinion and concentrate on the things we can confirm. I know that flies in the face of "faith" but it is the encyclopedic wqay to progreess.Robsteadman 10:13, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

When Rob is Back

Just a reminder: do not respond to Rob at all if he repeats old arguments or gets abusive. If he changes a consensus paragraph, revert it. Keep track of your reverts and only do it twice. If we can do this, nothing will come of it except frustration for Rob. --CTSWyneken 20:16, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

RE: A new motion about KHM03's addition to Jesus article

I am not seeing your proposal on Talk. Could you help me find it? —Aiden 23:07, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fast One being pulled on Jesus talk

Quorum call. Come and vote. --CTSWyneken 00:53, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is a misrepresentation - no fats one is being pulled, just an attempt to remove a hugely POV few words and achieve NPOV. Try it, you might like it. Robsteadman 10:14, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Scholar

You refer to yourself as a scholar. Could youn point the WP community in the direction of some of your publications please? Robsteadman 10:30, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

THanks for your reply on my talk page - shame not to have it here though. S you;re an UNPUBLISHED and UN PEER REVIEWED "scholar". IN fact you cl;aim a master's degree makes you a scholar - well I think that makes you someone who has taken two master's degrees. Interesting taht you claim to be a scholar in FOUR subjects and uet, even by YOUR definition, only have TWO MAster's degrees. Seems your love of fiction goes beyond "god". Robsteadman 13:38, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As this is a current discussion I've brought it out from its premature archiving - you do seem very keen to hide things away qyuickly...

Scholar

You refer to yourself as a scholar. Could youn point the WP community in the direction of some of your publications please? Robsteadman 10:30, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

THanks for your reply on my talk page - shame not to have it here though. S you;re an UNPUBLISHED and UN PEER REVIEWED "scholar". IN fact you cl;aim a master's degree makes you a scholar - well I think that makes you someone who has taken two master's degrees. Interesting taht you claim to be a scholar in FOUR subjects and uet, even by YOUR definition, only have TWO Master's degrees. Seems your love of fiction goes beyond "god". Robsteadman 13:38, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Jesus vote for the aleph-first time

Frankly, I think this whole debate over contemporaneity is mixing tomatos into fruit salad, to torture an aphorism from SOPHIA's user page. It only adds to the tension on both sides. Either you believe, or you don't. Without the Holy Spirit, all you can rely on is historicity, and some doubt even that. That said, Avery Krause has called the umpteenth final vote on Talk:Jesus.

As an aside, I've got quite a poker game going on my user page! Arch O. La 05:13, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Jesus Article Vote

Come and vote. --CTSWyneken 11:25, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey there. Just wanted to ask you to move your comment under the vote table in the comments section. I just don't want it to get cluttered again and if we start out on the wrong foot, we'll end up on it as well. After all, I did ask for people to not comment directly on the table. Thanks! --Avery W. Krouse 05:04, 1 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'm sure you've noticed that much of the disgraceful things that have gone on concerning that page have the same root. The NPOV flag, the edit war, the repeated stalling of progress, it all has its singular stem. Hopefully, however, that root will soon be pulled because I highly, highly expect a revert war to follow the end of this vote (if the short text wins), and I would be willing to bet that the already exhausted patience of Mongo, Ann H, and William Connelly, the three admins watching the page, will break. --Avery W. Krouse 05:15, 1 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting..

...that you're busily hiding all new discussions away in an archive rather than keeping them up for a while so that people might respond, get answers from you, etc. Rather bad form. Or do you fear that something will be put here that will make you look silly?

So, you have 2 masters' degrees - and still claim to be a scholar in 4 subjects. Could you explain further. Masters' Degrees don't really say "scholar" to me - do you have, perhaps, a Ph.D? You say you have no publication and nothing peer-reviewed.... what is YOUR definition of scholar? Robsteadman 14:22, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't give a plugged farthing what you consider to be a scholar, but since you want to know what I think: a scholar is any human being who reads and investigates the world around him or her. Even a little child is a scholar if he or she is inquisitive. Evidence of scholarship is graduation from college, earning a professional degree and a graduate degree. Does that answer your question? drboisclair 14:31, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and a scholar takes care in spelling correctly. drboisclair 14:35, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So if everyone with an active brain is a scholar there is no need to give yourself such a misleading title is there? I imagine virtually ALL WP editors, by YOUR definition, are scholars. That is why, of course, your definition is incorrect. Robsteadman 14:39, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for proving all of what I said above. BTW, I have a new user box about the historcity of our Lord Jesus Christ that I designed from your plethora of self-glorifying boxes on your user page. Check it out, Dude. drboisclair 14:44, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

1) I am not a Dude - how pathetic. 2) It is not my lord - please don't try to pass on your "faith". 3) I must remember what a great scholar you are - unpublished, un-peer reviewed and only at Masters' level... I'm sure the great minds of academia are quaking in their boots. 4) Ooo, you've got a new user box - oh joy! You must be very happy. Little things eh?! 5) Why are they self-glorifying? they are a way to let people know where you come from and what you are interested in. If they're so self-glorifying why have you bothered with any?! Robsteadman 14:47, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am praying for you, Rob Steadman. drboisclair 14:53, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Truly pathetic. I hope it is a lie because you surely have better things to do. Robsteadman 14:56, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Would both of you stop engaging in this insult fest. It is not becoming of either of you. --CTSWyneken 15:02, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thankyou for looking in, and giving good advice. drboisclair 15:26, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not meaning to insult either you or Rob, but how much sturm und drang must we endure? Also, which circle of hell is reserved for eternal ineffectual voting? Arch O. La 19:52, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

With timidity, Arch, I inquire, "How else may things be done on this article?" I readily wish to call a moritorium and wish that we could trust one another a little more as persons of itegrity. The problem comes in with suspecting each other's motives in editing. I share your angst. drboisclair 20:11, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there are various strategies in play, and I myself am running out of ideas. My latest attempt to synthesize the debate was rebuffed because it was too POV. Maybe someone should invent telepathy so we can all understand each other ;)

SOPHIA has said that she feels she can translate for Rob. There are other people, fairly new to the page, with whom we can communicate better than we can with Rob, even if we disagree. Perhaps there is still hope that the center will hold.Arch O. La 20:23, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's kinda funny...Rob needs a translator. KHM03 23:36, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, KHM03, how are you holding up? Can we ever reach "consensus"? I wonder. I wonder if there is a possibility of finding common ground. I think that Rob would do well to write his own version of the articles in question. Then we could see what all the allegations of non NPOV are all about. POV is not a bad thing as long as it comes together with other POVs that make for a NPOV. 1 POV + all other POVs=NPOV. drboisclair 23:44, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Even this one? That's not to defame anyone involved on the Talk:Jesus page. But what if someone new says that Jesus was a gnome from Rigel 12, or something? Arch O. La 12:06, 1 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Arch, that is the point, but how can we persuade the Jesus-Mythers that we are not a "Christian cabal"? BTW, I would say that I am short enough to be a dwarf from Rigel. 5' 9" is dwarfish!!! drboisclair 14:08, 1 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Literary allusions

If we don't find common ground, then it will be like fighting the Battle of the Five Armies: the last survivors "win." I'm trying to follow Bilbo's path ;) Arch O. La 00:37, 28 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I said Bilbo, not Gandalf! One book at a time! Arch O. La 00:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone loves Bilbo, the recent finder of the ring! They are disappointed by the taking of the lime light by Frodo, right? in the trilogy? Since I am ordained I could be Gandalf the white. drboisclair 00:45, 28 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You do seem to fill that role...perhaps Homestarmy is Aragorn? More seriously, who will be Saruman? Arch O. La 00:55, 28 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

wouldn't he have to be some diabolical character with great power like the White Witch of Narnia? drboisclair 01:03, 28 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And now we're into C. S. Lewis? Haven't read Narnia. Took a peek at Mere Christianity. Arch O. La 01:07, 28 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sacramental Union article

I'll give it a look, but to be honest, I'm not sure how "pure" a Lutheran I am. I'm a weird Lutheran who debates philosophy with Athiests, listens to Jehovah's Witnesses, recently graduated from a Quaker college, and affirms the Catholic position on religion and science. Not to mention that I've started to read the words of Rabbis. How's that for ecumenicalism? ;) On the other hand, I am a genetic Lutheran, so as I told SOPHIA, the Force runs strong in my family. I may have to talk to my uncle (an ordained minister) before I have anything meaningful to say. Cheers, Arch O. La 21:00, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"And may the Force be with you!" as one Star Wars aficionado would say to another! drboisclair 21:03, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And also unto you. Arch O. La 00:33, 28 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just to let you know, I have extended my Star Wars allegory. Arch O. La 22:59, 28 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Jesus, Christianity and POV

I know, I know. It's enough for me that the Christian positions are presented fairly and accurately. As Homestarmy has said, that may bring some to Christ. Beyond that, it's all politics. Of course, God and Satan both play politics. Witness Job. Arch O. La 21:10, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have appealed to User:MONGO to consider the discrimination that this affords. This is simply not fair in light of the fact that all of us are careful to be NPOV. However, despite all of our efforts we cannot free ourselves from POV no matter how we try. It must be understood that POV is not an evil thing, just all POVs need to be represented to make something NPOV, and NPOV means "neutral point of view" not "no point of view." That, at least, is my understanding of it. drboisclair 21:18, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Appealing to a neutral admin is a good strategy, and CTSWynekan has done the same. We may be nearing the time when mediation will be required. I affirm what CTSWynekan has said, that we must be careful of our own conduct. Arch O. La 21:23, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Jesus and Christianity articles tagged NPOV

All I can say is that there is one or more editors that question the neutrality of the articles. My recommendation would be to try and narrow down exactly what the neutrality dispute is about on the talk page. I did see that the one editor thinks that concensus is not the way to determine if a dispute over neutrality is to remain on an article as a tag. This is incorrect as an argument for unless we have some sort of concensus we don't have a direction. I understand what he/she is saying, but that doesn't qualify it as enough of a reason to slap neutrality tags on articles. If the discussion pages are achieving nothing, you can try and attract further outside views by filing a Request for comment, or seek mediation to resolve disputes. I may post a short question in both articles which hopefully will help pinpoint what the major arguments are.--MONGO 21:36, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]