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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by TheCustomOfLife (talk | contribs) at 18:37, 20 June 2004 (→[[Another World (television series)]]). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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The purpose of this section is to determine which pages can be listed on Wikipedia:Featured articles. A featured article is, simply put, a particularly comprehensive, neatly-organized, and well-written article that exemplifies Wikipedia's very best work. For more information on what a featured article should be like, see what is a featured article.

Anyone can nominate any article. If you are nominating an article you have worked on or copyedited, note it up front as a self-nomination. Sign (with date/time) your nominations and comments with "~~~~". After nominating an article, you may want to place a notice on its talk page to alert readers by adding the message {{fac}} (which expands to this).

Please read any nominated article in full before deciding to support or oppose a nomination. (Note - all objections must be actionable. That is, they must give a specific rationale for the objection. If nothing can be done to "fix" the objected-to matter, then the objection is invalid.) If there are no objections after at least one week, candidates can be added to FA. If there are objections, a consensus must be reached. If enough time passes (approximately two weeks) without objections' being resolved, an article may be removed from the candidates' list. Anyone may add approved pages to FA or remove prospects that have failed.

After an article becomes featured, a link to the article should be added in the proper category on FA. The nomination statement should be removed from the article's talk page replaced with {{featured}} (which expands to this).

Archive unsuccessful and withdrawn nominations on: /Archived nominations
Archive successful nominations on: /Featured log

Nominations without objections

Add new nominations on top, one section per nomination.

Soviet Union

I don't know if it's been featured before, but it sure deserves it. (IMO). Ilyanep 18:20, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Mission Earth

Self nomination, I think it satisfies all of the criteria except a picture (not really possible). Will interest anyone who wonders about those huge piles of Hubbard books in the remaindered and second-hand stores. A controversial topic, but not a controversial article - David Gerard 15:53, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)

  • Support. [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 05:50, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Twelfth Amendment to the United States Constitution

Self nomination. I think the article provides a good explanation of the background behind the Amendment, and of its provisions. -- Emsworth 15:11, Jun 19, 2004 (UTC)

  • Support. Solidly written. [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 05:46, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Money

I believe this article is complete enough to be a featured article. --172.171.166.184 02:45, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)

  • Support - David Gerard 14:44, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Great article, but the ==Money and economics== section needs at least a summary of the discussion about the difficulties of measuring the amount of money. Some of that could be taken from Money supply. I put a link to that in the article. That section is also a bit choppy and needs some cohesion. - Taxman 17:32, Jun 19, 2004 (UTC)

Kuru epidemic

This is a self nomination. But the article I used as a source was pretty good as an encyclopedia article to start with. User:Viz 21:01, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

  • The capitalisation and punctuation are a bit erratic, and the intro needs organisation and tightening. I'll have a go later. - David Gerard 19:43, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
    • Considerable copyediting and reshuffling. The content itself is good (and the references impeccable!), but it needed considerable clarification. How is it now? Could do with a picture - David Gerard 20:59, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)


Article One of the United States Constitution

Self-nomination. I think that some might object to the article's overall length. The length, however, is caused by the inclusion of the text, which was desired when the First Amendment article was nominated. The remainder of the article, I think, is of appropriate length (about 30K). -- Emsworth 18:29, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)

  • The length is no problem. Neutral for now, leaning towards object. These are really good legal histories--they would make fantastic sections of an eventual article. What's missing is some kind of overview approach, something that speaks to the general relevance of Article 1 beyond the narrowly legal. Am I being clear? [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 18:48, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
    • You are indeed being clear. I presume you want an expansion of the material within the first paragraph of the lead section? -- Emsworth 18:52, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)
      • Well, the lead is quite good--concise, yet informative. Maybe another section detailing the broader impact, or just material within the other sections explaining what effects this has had on the country as a whole. Hope this helps, [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 19:31, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
        • I've added material in certain sections: Congress, House of Representatives, Senate, Elections and Meetings, Bills. Feel free to inform me if more, in your opinion, is necessary. -- Emsworth 20:32, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)
          • Much better--those were really interesting. Support. [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 20:43, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Bryce Canyon National Park

Self nom. OK, what else needs to be done? If it's good enough for featured already, then so be it. :) --mav 08:03, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The article has good pictures, enough references and comprehensive information. But I have just a minor reservation: since much of the article gives measurement in both the U.S. and metric systems—"50 miles (80 km)"—the format should be applied throughout. The lead and "Creation of the park" sections, as far as I can see, are the only ones that do not give metric equivalents in parantheses. -- Emsworth 10:43, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)
Fixed. --mav
I withdraw the objection, and support the article. -- Emsworth 18:24, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)
Yummmm. Bryce Canyon. Definitely a topic and photos worthy of a featured article. It needs some copyediting (e.g., in the Geology section, perhaps other places). Also, I heard that it wasn't a "dandy" place to use a cow, but a "helluva" place to lose a cow [1][2][3]. I think you may want to redo some of the Geology section, which contains lots of material about the region outside the park, but not much about the park itself. For example, you may want to mention that the Claron formation is Paleocene. Saying more about the Claron lake would be interesting, and about the erosive processes to make hoodoos. From my memory (and double checking with Halka Chronic), there isn't any Dakota Sandstone or Tropic Shale in the park -- it is all lower down and to the east in the Paria Amphitheatre and over at Kodachrome Basin. I would drop those. Also, the Laramide orogeny doesn't have much to do with the park proper.
Your photos are nice. It looks like you went on a overcast day, and took the photos mid-day. Notice that the NPS photo is much redder --- photographers tend to take photos near dawn, to bring out the contrast and the redness of the rock. Would you consider substituting more NPS photos for the article, if they are more dramatic? Don't know if more are available. (No offense intended: your photos are fine, just trying to maximize the goodness of the article).
Overall, looks good -- just a little tweaking will make this a great article. -- hike395 04:47, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Oh, a couple of more things I noticed: I think the horseback riding photo is kind of generic and just takes up space. I also don't belive that the park has the darkest sky in North America --- the arctic wastes of Canada are probably extremely dark. -- hike395 05:04, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Support. I amde some medium edits and it is now polished. Great article. Neutrality 05:03, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for all the feedback. :) I'll work on those points. However, I strongly feel that the geology section should have a more regional focus. Let me explain: While some formations you mention are not found in the park, they are found nearby and we know that they did at one time overlay the area of the park - the fact that they eroded away should at the very least be mentioned. Also, a the intro to Hoodoos and the Claron lake system is at Geology of the Bryce Canyon area, but a few more sentences at the park article wouldn't hurt. I can increase the contrast and redness of my photos and add other NPS ones (I lost about half my Bryce Canyon photos due to a bad memory stick). The dark sky bit was direct from the NPS, but I agree it does sound a bit odd and should be researched more and qualified as needed. --mav 05:31, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
OK - pretty much all your points addressed except for the regional focus. --mav 10:12, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Nominations with unresolved objections

Add new nominations on top, one section per nomination.

El Cid

A self-nomination, but it's a good article. Neutrality 17:44, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

  • Thanks for the edit. Support. Not an objection per se, but there isn't a picture anywhere in the article. Since El Cid died almost an entire millenium ago, can't there be a picture found from the movie version? TheCustomOfLife 17:47, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
    • Done. I put two graphics in. Thanks.Neutrality 19:18, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Object. Contains non-free image. anthony (see warning)
    • Which image? The album cover is explicitly under fair use, and the Cid painting could arguably be as well. Neutrality 18:42, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
      • The album cover under fair use is not a free image. anthony (see warning)
        • What do you mean by "free image"? It's OK under copyright law, so what are your problems? Neutrality
          • Free content images are licensed freely in the same (freedom) sense as free software is licensed freely. That is to say, recipients are given permission to use the content for any purpose, copy it, modify it, and to redistribute modified versions. My problem is the image is we are building a free encyclopedia, and this image is not free. Whether or not the image is legal for us to use under copyright law doesn't matter. anthony (see warning)
            • This question (fair use images) has been discussed before (see Wikipedia talk:Copyright), and a no-fair-use policy has been roundly rejected. Anthony is just trying to cause trouble. →Raul654 17:51, Jun 18, 2004 (UTC)
              • No, the question discussed before was whether or not fair use images violate the GFDL. The conclusion was while they are legal, their use should be avoided whenever possible, and "most, possibly even almost all, of the fair use images that we have in Wikipedia should be removed" (that's a quote from Jimbo). anthony (see warning)
              • I see. These are not serious objections, then. Thanks, Raul. Neutrality 19:18, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
                • No, it's quite serious. See for example the mailing list thread entitled [What would Richard Stallman say?. "The Wikimedia Foundation should be a beacon of what is possible with copyright freedom, and we should not allow anyone to ever point at our work and say 'Yeah, they talk the big talk about free licensing, but what would their site be without all those proprietary licensed images and fair use exceptions?'" Not even being able to create a featured article without such fair use exceptions goes directly to that point. anthony
                  • I'm moving this back up to nominations without objections. If people feel that the images are not acceptable, they can replace, credit, or modify them as they see fit. Neutrality 05:51, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)
                    • I moved it back. There is no requirement that the objection must be resolved by the person making the objection. anthony (see warning)
                      • And I'm moving this back again, because there IS a requirement that all objections must be "actionable." The guidelines further state that "if nothing can be done to "fix" the objected-to matter, then the objection is invalid." Neutrality 04:01, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
                        • This objection is actionable. If the non-free images are replaced with free ones (and/or the copyright status of them is documented as free) then my objection will be removed. anthony (see warning)
                          • Antony, please see the Wikimedia article "Avoid Copyright Paranoia." In the meantime, I will move this back up, since you are the only one who has objections.Neutrality 14:58, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Object. Refeers extensively to Spain (a 15th century country) and Historical figure from 11th century (relating them excessively and with POV), and relating them as the country existed at the time and if it was unified, etc etc. And Garcia was King of galicia and Portugal, not only Galicia, both where already somewhat separate identities. Tought the article is interresting all wright. -Pedro 19:43, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
    • I reference to Spain in a general sense; e.g., "El Cid was known throughout Spain as..." I do not, however, use the word "Spain" as a substitute where more specific terms should be use (I use "Castile," "Leon," etc. to refer to that specific political entities. With regards to the POV comment: where in the article is hat you feel is POV? Could you please cite an example so I can fix whatever problems you see? Neutrality 21:07, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
      • In Portuguese we refered to the collective (and independent) kingdoms of Iberia as "Espanhas" (Spains), NOT "Spain" that is a modern (15th century) alteration of a collective name. In that time there was the Kingdom of Leon and Castille and several others. Not a kingdom of Spain so he could not be Spanish, as its mentioned in the article. The most important entity of that time as the kingdom of Leon. We can read in the article: El Cid (1045?–July 1099), also called El Cid Campeador, is the name commonly used for the important Castilian-Spanish knight and hero, Rodrigo (or Ruy) Díaz de Vivar, who was born in Vivar, Burgos, Castile, Spain and died at the age of 44 in Valencia. Suggesting what can be read. -Pedro 22:03, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
      • more objection. The image that is in the middle of the article is excelent and the first image is terrible and gives the idea that it's a movie. Main idea of the article: "A movie about a Spanish hero" Both incorrect. Cid is Spanish as Viriathus is Portuguese. - Pedro 19:57, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
        • I make it clear in the caption that the graphic is a poster for a modern film portraying a romantized character of El Cid. Neutrality 21:05, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
          • Yes, but dont you think that the other picture is better to put above? it is more heroic and prittier. The movie one can go to the middle of the article, cause that's a mere curiosity. -Pedro 22:03, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
          • I'm assuming you meant "romanticized." I've edited the article to say it as such. TheCustomOfLife 23:07, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
            • Yes, sorry about the misspelling. Thanks, TCOL! Neutrality 05:43, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Featured articles should have a well-developed lead section. This article is long enough to have more than 5 sentences. ✏ Sverdrup 15:21, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Object. 1. The lead section is, as noted above, insufficient. 2. If El Cid's date of birth is unknown, the article should not purport that he died at the age of forty-four. 3. The article uses the first person ("we"). I would suggest that it be replaced with "one," or, if the third person is undesirable, with the passive voice. 4. In several cases, the article uses the vague "this." Better would be to qualify the word, for example as the article does when it uses the phrases, "this story" or "this time." 5. The sentence "Sancho believed that as the king's oldest son, it was his right to inherit all of his lands" may be considered unclear. The first "his" refers to one individual, while the second one refers to another. Perhaps one might write, "Sancho believed that he, being the King's eldest son, was entitled to inherit all of his father's lands," or words to that effect. 6. Em dashes (—) should be used instead of ones currently employed ( - ). 7. The article inconsistently refers to "El Cid" and "the Cid." I would prefer if the article uses one or the other in all instances. 8. The article sometimes uses the present tense instead of the past: for instance, "Terrified after his crushing defeat, Alfonso recalls the best Christian general from exile." 9. In the sentence "It has been shown that he was at court on July 1087 (Kurtz)," one cannot be certain whether the "he" refers to El Cid or to Alfonso. 10. Consider the sentence, "In 1096, Valencia's nine mosques were 'Christianized,' Jérôme, a French bishop, was appointed." To which position was Monsieur Jérôme appointed? Furthermore, the sentence requires a semicolon rather than a comma after "Christianized." 11. The article uses "smart quotes" instead of normal ones, thereby breaching policy. 12. Several sections contain just a few sentences. I think each section or subsection should contain at least one substantial paragraph (if not two), or an independent list (such as the list of References). -- Emsworth 18:14, Jun 20, 2004 (UTC)


Billboard (advertising)

This article is fantastically detailed, interesting, well-written, good use of images...it's got it all. I've done a little work on it, but not much--User:Jkeiser gets the credit. Meelar 20:57, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Support. Neutral. Some of the external links seem to be duplicated; e.g. http://www.scotland.gov.uk/cru/resfinds/drf168-00.asp is linked both inline and in the "External links" section. Also, apart from the link to the Scottish study, the article really only discusses billboards in the US; I think it could do with some information on billboards in other countries to be well-rounded.. I found the article interesting, though. — Matt 22:14, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC) ...There's now some mention of Athens and London billboards, which I think helps. — Matt 19:10, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Object: 1. Metric measurements should be provided, in conjunction with Imperial ones, if not alone. 2. The article does not use words where appropriate ("Modern billboards sport technology that can show 3 different messages in succession.") 3. The section "Advertising style" includes a misuse of the word "hopefully." 4. The article uses first person. 5. The article uses second person. 6. "Reasons" is bolded for no apparent reason. 7. The article is Americo-centric. -- Emsworth 22:59, Jun 12, 2004 (UTC)
"Hopefully" is virtually never used today in the definition I assume you are saying is not misuse, i.e. "in a hopeful manner." Rather, it is almost always used, like other adverbial modifiers like frankly or mercifully or thankfully, as a sentence adverb. The disdain of this latter usage as "incorrect" or "misuse" has become shibboleth among grammar conservatives, who do not deny that sentence adverbs are a useful part of the language, but merely contend that this one word hopefully does not get to participate in that construction.
Let's compare the sentence as it was:
Billboard advertisements are designed to catch a person's attention and leave a memorable impression very quickly, hopefully leaving the reader thinking about the advertisement after they have driven past it.
to how it now reads:
Billboard advertisements are designed to catch a person's attention and leave a memorable impression very quickly, and leave the reader thinking about the advertisement after they have driven past it.
Is it now conclusively better? I think not (even putting aside the awkwardness of the serial use of and leave). Whereas before, it linked the two clauses, designed feature to hoped effect, it now flattens the sentence into three clauses, all subordinate to designed to. You've lost information, all in the name of avoiding a taboo word.
Perhaps to some grammar conservatives' dismay, there is no English Language Academy. English is as English is used. "Hopefully" is overwhelmingly used as a sentence modifier. (There's another sentence modifier there. Would you prefer I said it was "used as a sentence modifier in overwhelming frequency?") There is little or no ambiguity in that usage. It serves in a way that no other substitute does. The idea that there are thoughts that simply cannot be expressed in English because someone finds the construction objectionable is absurd.--TreyHarris 01:36, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I have gone ahead and fixed the objections and nitpicks from above, except: 1. Amero-centricism. The article is definitely focused towards the U.S., mostly due to the availability of U.S. sources. I will understand if that is a disqualifying factor. 2. I could not find any first person and second person in the article. 3. I left the billboard measurements in feet since they are intrinsic to the billboard itself (it would be a bit like saying my 6L engine is a 6.34013 Quart engine). Jkeiser 23:47, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
My objection to the units of measurement used is withdrawn. I have addressed the first and second person issues (in the section "What do we put on billboards"). -- Emsworth 00:20, Jun 13, 2004 (UTC)
Then you object to the article still, but only on the grounds that The article is Americo-centric? --TreyHarris 01:36, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I would withdraw the objection if some information on billboards outside the US is added. I would not continue to object if the article merely concentrates more on American billboards. Currently, however, there is almost no information on billboards elsewhere. -- Emsworth 13:13, Jun 13, 2004 (UTC)
I will search around today. I found some interesting information on Athens, billboards and the Olympic Games, but as for base statistics, given how hard it was to find information on the number of billboards in the U.S., I am not particularly optimistic that I will find this sort of information for other countries. Jkeiser 16:15, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • I have found data about billboards in Britain and Greece and added them to the article. Jkeiser 06:42, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
    • Now that the article does not contain solely American material, I withdraw the objection. -- Emsworth 19:05, Jun 14, 2004 (UTC)
  • Object. Multiple images are simply taken from other websites. anthony (see warning)
    • All of them were taken from websites: all authors have been emailed. Most have given permission. This is fair use, however, at least from what I am told in the IRC channel. --Jkeiser 06:11, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)
      • It may or may not be fair use, but I think we should take our own pictures rather than taking them from other websites. In the cases where permission under the GFDL has been given this should be noted on the image pages and is acceptable. These so called "fair use" images are easily replacible by more free images and this should be done before this article is featured. anthony (see warning)
        • I'm inclined to agree with Anthony in this case - the fair-use merit of those images is debatable, and (in this case) I don't think it would be hard to replace them. →Raul654 15:14, Jun 20, 2004 (UTC)
          • I've removed some of the images, and replaced one of them with a GFDL-equivalent. The article now has slightly fewer images, but still, IMO, warrants featured status. [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 18:24, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Supply and demand

Self nomination. This article is probably one of the most linked economics article, and I believe it to be high quality. Jrincayc 02:14, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

  • object, the section on elasticity is fairly central to supply and demand theory, and so far I have added only a section heading. Other than that I think it is a pretty good article. I will try to add at least a start at the elasticity section, which may be a bit of a challenge since the Elasticity (economics) article is not all that well developed. - Taxman 17:35, Jun 18, 2004 (UTC)

Cardinal number

Self nomination. Perhaps one of the few higher mathematics articles which are in a state of being comprehensible by non-mathematicans. (Splatty 08:46, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC))

  • Object. Needs a history section. Who contributed to the development of this concept? Who disputed it? Fredrik (talk) 09:16, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Could do with a bit more of the lower mathematics, e.g. the simple idea of 1, 2, 3 ... - David Gerard 09:26, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • I agree it would be fun to feature more articles of this type. The history/origin section is a major lack we have to deal with first, however. ✏ Sverdrup 18:36, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Object. This article is not in a very good state. It needs a lot of work, mostly reorganization and a more consistent treatment of the axiom of choice. --Zundark 11:07, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Ian McKellen

This is a superb example of a pithy contemporary biography. It hits the high points without lingering on inanities (length does not necessarily equal quality), and the quotes bring the subject to life. My only quibble—and it's a minor one—is the forced quality of the final paragraph of the lead. --TreyHarris 09:20, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

  • I'm a fan of Sir Ian, but while it's interesting, this article needs a little work yet. Contractions need to be repaired (not "wasn't," but "was not"), the writing needs tweaking in some areas, and some information needs fleshing out (for example, why was his portrayal of King Edward controversial?). It's also a bit strange that halfway through the article the noun changes from 'homosexual' to 'gay' (and gay is the preferred word, according to Wikipedia's relevant manual of style). I think this could be a FA, but perhaps not quite yet. Exploding Boy 09:36, Jun 5, 2004 (UTC)
These objections have been dealt with except for "writing needs tweaking in some areas." Will you define that objection actionably, please? --TreyHarris 17:13, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Since the remaining objection is not actionable, I'm moving this back to articles without objection. --TreyHarris 17:12, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • It really needs a picture of Sir McKellen as Gandalf. (Not a vote against.) Fredrik (talk) 15:01, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • It now has one (thanks to Lupin). --TreyHarris 17:12, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Object. First, the lead's too short (honesty: This is my fault, I've moved a paragraph out of the lead section into the early life section, because it wasn't very lead-section-like. I do think we need a better lead section, though.) Secondly, a comment, and not technically an objection (because it won't be "actionable"), I get the impression that the article is a little short on information — TreyHarris commends the article for this ("without lingering on inanities"), and to an extent I agree, but I think it might be on the sparse side, fact-wise. I don't know much about McKellen (except Gandalf), but glancing through some Google biographies, I see details there that we don't include; if Wikipedia is to be a decent reference resource, I think we should try to be relatively complete (without going to extremes of detail and making it boring). The only "actionable" detail in this regard is a discussion of his role in Richard III, which is mentioned here and there in other online biographies, even "mini-biographies". — Matt 22:32, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

'Sir Ian' or 'McKellen'?

  • The article refers to Sir Ian McKellan as "McKellan," but should not references be instead to "Sir Ian," as is perhaps appropriate for knights? -- Emsworth 18:10, Jun 5, 2004 (UTC)
I think "McKellen" is correct. Looking within Wikipedia, I've been unable to find a biography of a knighted person that consistently refers to "Sir" or "Dame", instead preferring last name. Most news articles in a Google News search of "Ian McKellen" (including most non-British ones, and virtually all non-Commonwealth ones) refer to him only as "McKellen". Of the remaining, most used "Sir Ian" once or twice, and then switched to "McKellen".--TreyHarris 09:00, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)
It's usual British practice to refer to knights as "Sir Firstname" after the first reference (on the BBC News website, for instance, he's always "Sir Ian McKellen" then "Sir Ian"). It's only natural that people in countries without knighthoods don't know how to use them in referring to people. That doesn't mean their practices are more correct than those within countries with knighthoods. Proteus (Talk) 10:26, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)
According to the Manual of Style, we go with British usage on this--I'll change it. Meelar 16:01, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)
There is nothing in the Manual of Style about references to knighted individuals, I'm not sure what you're talking about. If you're saying that "standard British usage is Sir Ian, therefore since this article is about a British subject the Manual of Style says we should use British usage," you're making an assumption?that 'Sir Ian' is a standard British usage. Take a look at this Telegraph article, for instance?where the headline contains 'Sir Ian', but none of the editorial writing does.
Or better yet, just look at this?the Google News listing of all news articles from UK sources. For this purpose, we should be looking only at editorial usage, not usage in quotations. At the moment I write this, there are 25 articles listed. Of those (referring only to second and following references in editorial content rather than quotations):
My point is, I'm not claiming that American usage should win the day?I'm saying that British usage isn't consistent here. The assumption that we need to change "McKellen" to "Sir Ian" en masse needs to be reconsidered, I think. Don't be so quick to see something "broken" that needs "fixing." --TreyHarris 03:31, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Well, you're lucky Wikipedia crashed before I could get to it ;) Meelar 05:40, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I strongly disagree that "It's usual British practice to refer to knights as "Sir Firstname" after the first reference". It looks very cheesy to me. Please leave it! Markalexander100 06:29, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Umm, whut? Whether or not you think it flows neatly, the correct semi-informal salutation is "Sir Ian", not "McKellan", nor "Ian", nor "Mr. Beardie", yes? And we at Wikipedia strive to be correct in all things, now don't we? ;-)
James F. (talk) 09:38, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I don't understand. Where do you get that it's "correct"? See my statistics above? if you're saying that "Sir Ian" rather than "McKellen" is "correct", you need to explain why the British press is "incorrect", seven to one. --TreyHarris 15:16, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Correct form (in the UK at least) is not determined by popularity, and the British press are absolutely incapable of getting it right most of the time. (The most respectable paper, The Times, consistently refers to Knights as "Sir Firstname" in its articles.) If you want evidence, I suggest you look at Debrett's Correct Form rather than a survey of Google News. Proteus (Talk) 16:37, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I agree with Proteus on the British press. I'm sure that a survey would show that many use absurd styles such as "Prince Charles" or "Baroness Helena Kennedy." -- Emsworth 20:35, Jun 8, 2004 (UTC)
"Debrett's Correct Form" has something of an interest in perpetuating cheesy class distinctions. The idea that the Times must be right because Proteus considers it respectable is... interesting. Markalexander100 00:52, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
For the second time in the discussion, you call the honours system 'cheesy' with nothing other than your assertion that it's either a bad thing for us to use it or that it not doing so would be a good thing. Wikipedia isn't the place to push a republican POV, really; the Crown's decisions as to protocol are, in a way, POV, yes, but they are 'higher', more neutral, POV than others. It's a bit like the SI's definition of the metre being a 'higher' POV that the US government's (were they to disagree). I fully agree with Proteus, Emsworth, FWIW.
01:24, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
My point was just that in the absence of any authority, there's no reason not to use the most common British usage. The idea that the Crown's POV on questions of nobility is NPOV because you like it is POV. ;-) What any of this has to do with this being a featured article I don't know. :-( Is anyone actually worried enough about this to object to the article being featured in its current state? If not, we can talk about something less trivial. Markalexander100 03:01, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Wait wait wait. Firstly, what newspapers do, or formal usage, is not necessarily what wikipedia should do. Sir Robert Peel, for instance, is always referred to as "Peel". His ministry is always "Peel's ministry", and never "Sir Robert's ministry". I'd say this is true for just about every knight or baronet who's ever been in government. If this is true for 19th century figures, then it seems silly to be more formal for a contemporary actor like Ian McKellen. On the other hand, I'd note that the formal styles and titles of nobility are not "the Crown's POV". Noble titles and so forth are regulated by law. It's not just that the crown says one thing, and people say another. There are formal rules about it. But I don't think that's a reason to use "Sir Ian" in an encyclopedia article. See Columbia's articles on Peel, Walpole, Campbell-Bannerman. I've never seen a historical write up that refers to these people as "Sir Robert," "Sir Robert," and "Sir Henry." john k 04:07, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

1911 Britannica: Sir Robert Peel, Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman. The articles refer to "Sir Robert" and "Sir Henry" for the time the individual in question held the baronetcy or knighthood. -- Emsworth 10:34, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)
But 1911 also refers to everyone as "Mr. Lastname." I think this reinforces my point that "Sir Firstname" is the equivalent not of "Lastname" but of "Mr. Lastname", which Wikipedia does not use. john k 21:49, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Not necessarily. Consider Stephen Grover Cleveland -- Emsworth 22:02, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)
Hmm...so perhaps the use of "Mr." is confined to Brits... At any rate, I don't see why we should follow the style guidelines of an encyclopedia from 1911. john k 02:00, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Let me add that "Sir Ian" is equivalent to "Mr. McKellan" (if he were not a knight), and not to use of the last name only, which is used for both knights and non-knights. If we were the New York Times, I'd be all for "Sir Ian", but we are not. john k 04:09, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Noble titles and so forth are regulated by law. Are you saying that there's a law on the British statute book that says how a knight must be referred to? If so, I would find that surprising. If not, I don't see the relevance. Markalexander100 05:04, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
One must point out that British law is not composed just of statutes. One must also note common law, the Royal prerogative, custom and tradition. Now, it has been suggested that referring to knights as "Sir X" is POV. This assertion is completely without basis: the individual in question is a knight, insofarasmuch as the law is concerned, and in legal documents would be referred to as "Sir X." -- Emsworth 21:59, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)
in legal documents would be referred to as "Sir X." I very much doubt that any legal document would be so imprecise. It's also completely irrelevant: an encyclopedia is not a legal document, legal terminology is almost by definition not the usual terminology, etc. etc. So until we end up drunk in a pub together, when we might want to continue this fascinating discussion, Is anyone actually worried enough about this to object to the article being featured in its current state? If not, we can talk about something less trivial. Markalexander100 01:53, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Then what, pray, would you suggest for a legal document, if Sir X is insufficient? -- Emsworth 10:24, Jun 10, 2004 (UTC)
My answer is both obvious and correct, but it's not relevant to this discussion, so I'll tell you in the pub. Markalexander100 01:17, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Noble titles are certainly regulated by law. The Duke of Westminster is the Duke of Westminster legally - it is not an affectation which can be disputed as "the Royal POV." I believe that much of the rest of it is also regulated by law - that sons of Dukes and Marquesses can preface their names with "Lord," that daughters of Dukes, Marquesses, and Earls with "Lady," and so forth. Certainly these people get passports, and other official documents, under such names. Some of it is not, of course, a matter regulated by law, but it is no more POV to say that there is a correct and an incorrect way of referring to people than it is to insist on correct spelling, or something like that. Just because the media is too lazy to get it right doesn't meant that there isn't a correct way to refer to people. But, at any rate, I don't think this applies to the question at hand. You would not refer to Ian McKellen as "Mr. McKellen." That would be incorrect - if you wished to do that, you should call him "Sir Ian" instead. But calling him "McKellen" is perfectly correct, and is just like calling somebody who is not a knight (or baronet) by their last name, which is done all the time. john k 06:34, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)



Nicholas II of Russia

Nicely sectioned, smooth. Very comprehensive, purposeful and meaningful Avala 15:39, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

  • Object. 1. The family background section needs expansion. 2. The vague term "this" is often used: "prevented this" or "previous to this." Some phrases from the article seem more appropriate: "this advice" or "this time." 3. More needs to be said about Rasputin's influence on the monarchy, and about the various hardships facing Russia. 4. The section on Nicholas' removal from power is much, much too brief. 5. More information is needed on Nicholas II's execution. Why did the government feel that it was necessary to end his life? Were there any in the government who felt that execution was not necessary? Why was the execution concealed? When was the execution made public? What was the reaction of the Russian people? 6. The section on sainthood is insufficient. It needs to indicate if he was indeed viewed as a martyr prior to the sainthood. Furthermore, the first sentence lacks agreement ("were canonized as a saint"). 7. Nicholas II's style was, I believe, "Emperor and Autocrat of All the Russias," rather than "Emperor and Autocrat of All Russia." I am not, however, confident as to this point. So, generally, I feel that many sections are not comprehensive enough. -- Emsworth 17:19, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)

George W. Bush

Well written. Very informative Avala 15:31, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

  • Object. 1. I think that the Civil Rights section needs expansion. The part about his views on marriage needs to be expanded. Furthermore, his ideas on abortion need to be indicated. 2. A section on Bush's religious views could be added. Firstly, one may indicate how he claims religion plays an important role in his public policy-making. Secondly, one may indicate his support of faith-based programs. 3. While the article does in many places mention that Bush has been criticized for his views, indications of criticism need to be made in respect of the aforementioned Civil Rights and Religion sections. 4. One should indicate why Bush is so unpopular with many members of the Democratic Party. 5. The pictures are all on the right side. Perhaps some can be shifted to other parts of the page, so as to offer a less plain view. 6. The article inconsistently uses "US" and "U.S." 7. Bush's relationship with Congress should be explored. His support in each House, and his use (or non-use) of the veto power needs to be indicated. This section would include his battle with Democratic Senators over judicial nominees, and his use of the recess appointment power. -- Emsworth 17:04, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)
  • Object. Phrasing in the entire foreign policy section is consistently awkward, and does not exactly exemplify NPOV. Also, why is there a "Legislation" section? Presidents cannot introduce legislation in or vote upon any bills before either house of the Congress; IIRC the only thing Bush has done on those bills is not veto them. And I have reservations about featuring candidates for office on the Main Page, but I'll save those for Raul if/when this receives FA status. - jredmond 19:14, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
    • Well, re: the "Legislation" section, he has a good amount of influence here--when I mention "the Bush tax cuts", everyone knows what I mean (everyone being fellow Americans). [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 19:35, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
      • Most Americans understand that - while you and I may have paid attention in civics classes, I can't say that everybody else did. (cf. the endless explanations of the Electoral College in the US media four years ago) Also, not everybody who reads here is an American. And "influence" is a slippery term... he farmed most of that work off to party whips in either house. - jredmond 19:48, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Very likely to get vandalized or deterioriate due to edit wars during the election campaign in the US. Looks bad for Wikipedia; besides, it's unnecessary to stimulate mishaps by flashing for the article on the frontpage. --Ruhrjung 19:22, 2004 Jun 16 (UTC)


Another World (television series)

An amazingly detailed article by new contributor User:TheCustomOfLife, about a long-running American soap opera. If anything, it might need a little work to make it more consise. It will probably need polish, but there is certainly the material here for a good featured article. Isomorphic 00:53, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

  • Support...well-written and well-structured. — Matt 02:01, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC) Object. Very detailed, perhaps to a fault. I think some work to make it more concise would help, as some of the information is unnecessary and would likely bore the majority of readers, e.g. The Closing Credits section: The closing credits usually started with the writers, beginning with Head Writer and going down from there, dictated by tenure. The director of the episode was usually credited next, followed by the executive producer, producers and associate producers. Then the cast would be credited in order according to tenure. In the 1970s, it was decided by then-executive producer Paul Rauch that Victoria Wyndham, Douglass Watson, and Constance Ford, in that order, be credited before the rest of the cast.. — Matt 00:00, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I was unaware that being too detailed was a bad thing. I wrote it partly for the uninitiated, as well as for the people at The World of Soap Themes, who really do appreciate that sort of detail. But, in any case, what do we suggest I do about it? I can't cut it out completely. I need to know specifics, because "making it more concise" isn't much to go on. I was warned that my article would be picked apart, and I really shouldn't get this defensive about it, but I thought the whole purpose of the article was to educate the reader about the show: all parts of it. TheCustomOfLife 00:15, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
There is, surely, a point at which detail becomes detrimental to an article? You could add tons of facts like "the number of times the word the is used in dialog", but that wouldn't improve the article. I can't give you a decent rationale about where the line should be drawn though, and I'm open to being persuaded — I don't want to object just out of personal disinterest (for example, I enjoyed the detail in Papal Tiara). (The Announcer is another section I think could be trimmed down).
A minor niggle is "please scroll down" — better "see below" or something, not everyone may be reading the content on a computer. — Matt 00:39, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I don't see how my detail is equivalent to "the number of times 'the' has been used in a script." I can understand how a section like "The Announcer" is long-winded, but if sections are cut, people from the site in which I frequent will complain that I have left out details. In fact, for a section like that, as odd as this may sound, I really have given the minimum in terms of description. Besides, if people do decide to "see below" for technical history, a debatable "long-windedness" would probably be overlooked, assuming the people reading are interested in the technical history. It does make sense, if they have kept going past storyline history? TheCustomOfLife 00:44, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I didn't mean to say that your detail was like "the number of times the has been used in a script", but rather give an extreme example to show that there is a point where facts become too trivial and a detriment to an article. How to decide where that point is, I'm not sure, but my gut feeling is that parts of Another World is on the "too trivial" side for a Wikipedia Featured Article, even if it's fine for World of Soap Themes. I agree with your point about people who have read on past the storyline history, though. — Matt 00:53, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
We'll have to agree to disagree about the article being too trivial. The show wasn't top-rated for a decade for nothing. The entire article is not "World of Soap Themes" material, either. Please stop discounting it.
Maybe it would help more if we had someone who watched the show go through and judge, regarding the "wordy" issue. TheCustomOfLife 00:55, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
By Another World I meant the article, not the series itself; sorry, that may not have been clear. I don't think the topic is too trivial, and I'm not discounting it. I appreciate you've put the work that you have into this article, but my honest opinion is simply that the information contained in certain sections of the article is too trivial for a Wikipedia Featured Article. I'm open to persuasion otherwise, particularly since I can't give a concrete rationale beyond "gut feeling". — Matt 01:05, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
So your objection still stands, even though you can't give more of a rationale beyond "gut feeling"? TheCustomOfLife 18:48, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
That is correct. — Matt 23:04, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Are gut feelings alone allowed to stop articles from reaching featured status? That reason seems reaching. TheCustomOfLife 00:00, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
You'll see in the talk page that I proposed some rules for voting that would require that all objections be answerable. However, since that's not policy (I'm told it's unnecessary), I think unaswerable gut-feeling objections are allowed, unfortunately. --TreyHarris 00:37, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • (abstain, for now)Support. Nice style, a refreshing lack of breathy fandom, sensible use of pictures. I do have some suggestions for improvement (well, change): some notes deflecting the correlation between events in the show and in the real world - by which I mean when (if) did they introduce a character with HIV, a single mother, a gay character, a black or hispanic character. Did the show reflect the political geitgeist too - was everyone unhappy and unemployed during recessions, and riding around in speedboats in boomtimes (or is it one of those escapist ones where everyone's always riding around in speedboats)? I found the "Before They Were Stars" to be an excellent and most enlightening thing, but the regular cast-lists didn't seem very interesting. There's a couple of places where the copy is a little chattier than wikipedia's norm (e.g. "yes, every girl falls in love with Cass!"), but that's easy fixed. Other than that, it's great. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 01:21, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Actually, AW introduced the first AIDS patient on a soap opera (Dawn Rollo, in 1987). Most notably, Sharlene Frame, the former prostitute, was a single mother (she gave birth to and raised Josie; there is a mention of that in there, but it is only fleeting).
Cast lists and "every girl falls in love with Cass!" deleted. I'm trying to find a place where I can add Dawn Rollo. TheCustomOfLife 01:27, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Dawn Rollo mention added. Its lead-in is the Adam/M.J./Chad triangle, and Chad was Dawn's brother. TheCustomOfLife 01:37, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Black actors on Another World were also added. There were more black actors on AW than on any other soap at the time. I'll add a mention on how the soap, in some places, looked glamorous due to the Dallas/Dynasty touch of the time. Most of the characters were middle-class, save for businessmen like Michael Hudson, but he was a stable boy in the beginning so it was like a rags-to-riches story. Mac Cory had been rich since forever, and Felicia was always over-the-top. I will put a tiny mention in there. Mostly, AW was quite real in portrayals of characters, socioeconomically. TheCustomOfLife 02:04, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Felicia mention added, socio-economic status of AW briefly analyzed. TheCustomOfLife 02:17, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Thanks - all excellent additions. Were there consequences (e.g. did the addition of the HIV character receive praise from some group or other, or criticism from some group or other) or external causes to these (e.g. was there some kind of lobby group or advertiser campaign for the inclusion or exclusion of one subject or other?) I ask particularly because british soap Brookside was constantly courting controversy with its subject matter ("the wifebeater's body under the patio", "the lesbian kiss", "the incest family" etc.). I think my fundamental thesis is that all really good wikipedia articles are kinda "knitted" into the fabric of the wikipedia well, that you read one (perhaps initially trivial-seeming) soap-opera article and before you know it you've been dragged off and are reading about antiretroviral drugs or hollywood colour-bans or Ronald Reagan. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 02:25, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I know African-American groups like the NAACP supported the black cast members on AW, because, unlike Y&R's black cast in later years, the black characters on AW interacted with the white characters instead of just staying in their own "corner." Even Zack and Julie Ann were never alone; while their use was shaky, they still interacted with the core members of the cast. Zack was a lawyer buddy of Cass's, and Julie Ann worked at Brava for Mac Cory and was a confidante to Mac's daughter Amanda, who was around the same age she was.
The AIDS story played out very early into the AIDS epidemic, and since Dawn hadn't been on the canvas much before she was given the story, not many organizations noticed. Many more organizations noticed AW alum Ellen Wheeler's story of a woman with AIDS on All My Children in 1988 and 1989. Mostly, I think AW's AIDS story was a trial basis sort of thing. AMC's hit home more. TheCustomOfLife 02:33, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I've heard of Brookie, and AW is definitely nothing like that show. I don't know where you live, but since you mentioned Brookie, I'm going to assume that you know the other British soaps. If anything, AW wasn't that controversial. Save for the issues I mentioned, AW was more mellow. Up until about 1995, when Jill Farren Phelps took over the show, AW was more like a slightly more glamorous Corrie. While on Corrie, Mike Baldwin was the only "rich" character, there were more businessmen on AW. While the other American soaps had more escapist plots, AW stayed true to the moral fabric of America. Sharlene lived at the Frame Farm most of the time she was there. Rachel grew up poor, and Ada was a working-class woman all her life. TheCustomOfLife 02:59, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Upon suggestion by Matt Crypto, only the opening credits remains for technical history. The other two technical categories were given their own pages and linked at the end. Television listings moved to after the opening credits. Before They Were Stars and AW Emmy wins are in a new category altogether, Notable AW Alumni. TheCustomOfLife 01:47, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The discussion about how controversial the show was (or wasn't) made me think of a suggestion. You know a lot about soaps in general, not just about AW. So, you might want to spend more time comparing and contrasting AW with most soaps. For someone like me, it's more interesting to learn how AW fits in to the overall soap opera genre than it is to read plot summary or technical details. Is AW more high-brow or more low-brow than most soaps? Was it generally considered an innovator, or did it mostly follow where others led? That sort of thing. Isomorphic 02:08, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Would that need a completely different section? I think so. It won't be that long but it will do the job. TheCustomOfLife 02:09, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The outline of the new section:
  • 2 What made AW unique
  • 2.1 AW's early success story
  • 2.2 A blockbuster success...isn't AW expands to ninety minutes
  • 2.3 AW becomes an African-American showcase
  • 2.4 AW tackles AIDS
  • 2.5 AW and the socio-economic status of the day
  • 2.6 A "little person" actor
  • 2.7 A compelling story of sexual abuse Sharlene's story

Before I listed the things that made AW unique, I made a mention that AW was more high-brow due to the character-driven storytelling that most soaps did not do.

I wish I could give mentions of organizations noticing the Dawn Rollo and Sharlene story, but I'm afraid I can't. I don't think these organizations took notice of soap operas' stories until the very late 1980s and the early 1990s. These stories were on the brink and were subsequently not noticed. TheCustomOfLife 15:42, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Object. Abstain. This is just not a very professional article. Many of the headers (i.e. =="A compelling story of sexual abuse==, and ==The end and life after it==) sound like they came from a fan page, not an encyclopedia article. You don't even need to look at the edit history to see that this article is not yet the product of a community, but rather of one fan contributor. I would suggest listing this page on Wikipedia:Peer Review and getting this article reworked and toned down before adding to FA. - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 19:05, Jun 14, 2004 (UTC)
Headers changed to more nondescript names. I had no idea that my writing this article was a bad thing. In fact, the user SwissJohn29 added the current picture at the top, as well as a couple of paragraphs on the books written.
Since obviously one person writing an article is frowned upon, should I have left it the way it was, even though it was atrocious before? I really think not, mate. TheCustomOfLife 19:12, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
No one is saying that the article is bad. All I'm saying is that any article that is only written by one person is not going to have the well-rounded NPOV perspective that we strive for at Wikipedia. You're obviously a big fan of this show, and that comes across a little too much in the article. As I suggested before, I would submit this for peer review before having it be featured. Keep in mind that just because I don't think your article is not "featured" quality yet, that does mean that I think the article is bad, or that the topic is un-discussable. I think that if you give this article some time and wait for some other Wikipedians to get around to adding their community input, then this article could eventually be featured quality. - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 19:20, Jun 14, 2004 (UTC)
You called the article unprofessional. To me, unprofessional and bad go hand-in-hand. With a show like a soap opera, it is really hard to tell a neutral point of view, because there is so much drama and emotion surrounding it. I have tried hard not to take sides on any of the issues, and edited the areas where I did.
No one was going to come around and edit this article anyway. It stayed stagnant for months until I did something about it: the very thing you said should happen to it. TheCustomOfLife 19:36, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I'm not sure if I or any of the other editors came of as being somehow antagonistic in some way, but we're really not trying to be at all. If you look at the other article nominations here, people openly criticize the article candidates, and the authors take it in stride. I think that you've done a great job of adding new material to a stub article, and I'm glad that you did it. However, the criteria of being one of wikipedia's "Best" articles is a pretty high bar, and I just don't think this article is there yet. No hard feelings, ok? - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 20:04, Jun 14, 2004 (UTC)
DropDeadGorgias's main objection seemed to be with the way the headers were worded. They have been changed. Would you like to reword your objection? TheCustomOfLife 23:47, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I still don't understand why you're so wary of submitting your article for Peer Review. It's not a negative thing- it's just that there are people on Peer Review who will be able to do a better job of suggesting changes than I will, as I am just not that familiar with the subject matter.
My basic concern with the article is that it's not very accessible to people unfamiliar with the subject matter. I would suggest changing the structure of the first two sections. It seems to me that you go through two completely separate chronolgies of the show, one in terms of the main characters, one in terms of the topics that were covered. I think it could also benefit from a section on how the show has influenced soap operas on the whole or other TV shows. Is it referenced/spoofed in any other major media? Look at how other featured media articles manage to tie in other mainstream topics (i.e. DOOM, Batman).
However, I simply don't have the energy to keep responding to you with the constant fear of possibly offending you; I am changing my vote to an abstention, so I can get on with my life. I still would suggest that you try Peer Review, and that you not think of this as "your article" so much as the community's article. - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 00:35, Jun 15, 2004 (UTC)
This is essentially Peer Review with voting. In any case, I don't understand why so many people (not just you, but others) feel that the show had to impact society. I really can't think of any ways AW impacted society as a whole, but more of a basis between the show and its fans, one-by-one. TheCustomOfLife 00:40, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Object: Way too many sections = overwhelming TOC. See Wikipedia:What is a featured article. I suggest moving all the subsections under ==A storyline synopsis== to its own article titled Another World storyline and leaving a 5 to 6 good sized paragraph summary in its place (not everybody wants all the detail that is there right now). Also, reduce the number of subsection headings under ==What made AW unique==. There is little need to name paragraphs. --mav
    • It is very hard to summarize thirty-five years. I'll compromise; I'll leave the storyline synopses but move "what made AW unique" to its own article. Would that be better? TheCustomOfLife 15:02, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
      • OK - it's better. Objection withdrawn. In the long term a storyline summary will still need to be made. --mav
        • As long as that is...that is the summary. TheCustomOfLife 19:31, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
          • Neutral, but it does seem rather arbitrary to have a section on the opening credits in the article, but to mention the closing credits in a separate one. -- Emsworth 19:42, Jun 15, 2004 (UTC)
Fair point. All technical categories moved to their own articles. TheCustomOfLife 19:54, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • As someone who watched not a single episode of this series, I can make a few unbiased comments about this article.
It's clearly written by a fan, by the way the characters and episodes are discussed. I find several instances of POV language which ought to be modified.
It reads far more like a magazine article than an encyclopedia article. This does not mean I expect dry-as-dust, but it's a little too breezy and casual. I have no objection to sneaking in the occasional witticism or telling remark, but "sparingly" is the key concept.
The soap is clearly an important 20th century entertainment phenomenon, and there is no reason this article could not represent the genre well. And BTW, TheCustomOfLife, I've poured hours of my own into articles here only to see them run through the same mill. I have learned not only to acept but to respect the process. It's important to realize that once you contribute an article to Wiki, it's no longer yours, but it is rare that an article which has been lovingly and carefully put together suffers from the process of collaborative editing. Believe me when I tell you we're far less harsh than many magazine/newspaper editors I've seen! Denni☯ 03:38, 2004 Jun 16 (UTC)
I would like to change the POV language, if you would point out instances. That is, if User:SwissJohn29 would like to do it first. TheCustomOfLife 14:09, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
It's been four days and no POV instances have been cited. I have a feeling that the POV talk was just a way to segue into the "Don't feel bad" spiel. TheCustomOfLife 18:01, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
POV instances cited on my talk page have been changed. Re-read them and see if there are any more objections. TheCustomOfLife 18:33, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Margaret Thatcher

This article seems well-written. John Major is featured, and it's shorter than Thatcher's article... cryptfiend64 00:55, 30 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

  • Neutral, leaning towards oppose. Couldn't the cabinets be split off or something? They make the article unnecessarily long. Johnleemk 02:12, 31 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for now. There are a lot of words that could/should be hyperlinked, particularly for the benefit of readers unfamiliar with Maggie (hard though it is to believe, as a late-20s Brit, plenty such people do exist ;o) — I'll prolly go through and do some of these later this evening. A copy of the (rather famous) photo of her leaving Downing Street, with tears in her eyes, seems notable by its absence, though; there must be one that doesn't present copyright issues, surely? I'm inclined to agree with Johnleemk about the Cabinet lists, though. I think they should be split off to another page. I could be convinced on these last two points, though; I definitely will support this being FA at some point soon. — OwenBlacker 19:49, Jun 14, 2004 (UTC)
    • Right, I've done that (and read it through even more carefully as a result). I'll support this once there's another image or two to break up the copy a little. I'd suggest a photo from the aftermath of the [{Brighton Bomb]] and Maggie crying in the car, leaving Downing Street, as they're both memorable sets of images, one of any of her Conference speeches at the podium would prolly suffice, if that's the best anyone can do... ;o) — OwenBlacker 21:27, Jun 14, 2004 (UTC)
      • I added another photo. Changing back to no objections. →Raul654 05:54, Jun 15, 2004 (UTC)
      • The Brighton bomb and the Maggie leaving Downing Street were unique events with considerable historic and educational value. Thus they are ideal candidates for a fair use of photos from one of the various news sources. The argument for a podium speech photo is harder to justify. I like the article. Pcb21| Pete 22:18, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
        • The new photo is great, but I really do think it needs at least one of her leaving Downing Street or the Brighton Bomb. Definitely an improvement (thanks, Raul), but I think I continue to object until at least one of these two events is pictures on the article; the new photo is just a little too nondescript... OwenBlacker 12:14, Jun 15, 2004 (UTC)
  • Object - TOC is too long (see guidelines). I suggest moving all the cabinet stuff to a separate daughter article. --mav 06:38, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
    • Cabinets spun off. TOC is about 40% smaller now. →Raul654 06:44, Jun 15, 2004 (UTC)
      • Much better, thanks. --mav
        • Some of us are worried about butchering articles just so the remainder looks neat enough to satisfy the whims of the FAC process. It seems a backwards way to do things. Although layout is important, content is king. See Talk:Margaret Thatcher.

Titles

It seems to me that this article has to meet the same fate as Ian McKellen, as it refers to "Thatcher," just as Ian McKellen refers to "McKellen." So if that article gets disqualified as an FA for that usage, this one has to be, too. --TreyHarris 01:08, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thatcher is a baroness. Peers are referred to by just their last names. And for the period before she became a peer, there's certainly not a problem. john k 06:38, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Is our policy to refer to her as "Lady Thatcher" or "Baroness Thatcher"? I think that "Lady" might be more appropriate for references after the first (if even that is used, instead of just "Thatcher"). It's like referring to a Countess as "the Countess of X" first and "Lady X" or "X" thereafter. -- Emsworth 17:10, Jun 11, 2004 (UTC)

Tbh, I'm not all that bothered about the use of titles either way, as long as the article is internally consistent, I think Wikipedia-wide consistency is merely a nice-to-have. — OwenBlacker 19:49, Jun 14, 2004 (UTC)

I'm hereby declaring that peerage titles should not be used in the article, and that this objection is moot. →Raul654 06:00, Jun 15, 2004 (UTC)

  • I agree that titles need not be used when referring to the period during which the Lady Thatcher was not a Baroness. For the period she was a Baroness, however, I think that "Margaret Thatcher" would be innapropriate. Better would be "Lady Thatcher" or just "Thatcher." That being said, I agree that this objection is not germane. -- Emsworth 22:24, Jun 17, 2004 (UTC)

Dune

Nice pictures; very descriptive of the different types. -Litefantastic 01:01, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Object...1) there's an inline editorial comment: (is this a made up word?). 2) The subsection "Dome" is only one sentence long. 3) The article is crying out for some illustrative diagrams or photos for the various different types of dune. 4) There's no discussion on the physics of a how a dune is formed. — Matt 19:35, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
oppose. "(is this a made up word?)" must be resolved; and, not a bad article, but sections are uneven in content. Badanedwa 02:30, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)
It's not a made up word and the comment has been deleted (I responded to it on the talk page months ago) --Steinsky 11:32, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • neutral then. Badanedwa 04:23, Jun 17, 2004 (UTC)

Formula One

Pretty complete, could be a FA IMO. cbraga 02:03, Jun 14, 2004 (UTC)

  • Object. 1. The constructor-driver table in "Lists" is unclear; cell borders might be helpful. 2. The list of races in the championship should not, in my opinion, be presented as a table. I would prefer if the information in the "People of Formula One" table is not presented as a table either. 3. The article appears incomplete; note the last row of the "People of Formula One" table and the last bullet in the section "The Future of F1." 4. The article uses informal language, such as "tame these twitchy beasts" 5. The article inconsistently uses British and American spellings: "rumour," "formalised" and "organizer." -- Emsworth 02:57, Jun 14, 2004 (UTC)
    • Re: #2, the list of races comes from the series (e.g. Spanish_Grand_Prix); I think it's fine. #5: I think that's the Oxford z, not the American one. Markalexander100 03:18, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Object. Although I agree that this is quite a complete article, there are some areas that need working on. The "Future of F1" section needs renewing and expanding to reflect the current positions of the FIA and the teams with regards future rule changes. I'm not sure if the other articles in the series should be treated as if they are candidates but if so, then they also need some work doing. Firstly, the F1 Cars article needs to be more cohesive and secondly, any good info of the "2003 rule changes" and "2004" sections in the History of F1 article needs to be incorporated into the relavent place. 999 10:16, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Lancelot (Arthurian legend)

Just stumbled across this and thought it was a very good and thorough article. OwenBlacker 23:57, Jun 13, 2004 (UTC)

  • Object. Right now it's a big block of text, which is not easy to read at all, and not really in wiki style. It also tends to wax academic far too often, (lines like But to whom is the story to be assigned? are not encyclopedic). Article barely mentions portrayals of Lancelot in pop culture at all. Maybe if it were divided into sections it would be better. - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 01:55, Jun 14, 2004 (UTC)
  • Second. Although the text is extensive, there is a movie coming out soon that could stir up an interest in this article and others related to it.
  • oppose. needs links and sections. Badanedwa 02:36, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)

Deluge (prehistoric)

A nice, detailed description of the supposed prehistoric Flood. RickK 21:46, Jun 13, 2004 (UTC)

  • support, but an image would be nice as well Zw 23:05, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Object: 1) What's a "deluge" and a "Universal Deluge"? A definition intro sentence would help answer the first question that I had when I clicked on the article. 2) I'd query the use of "BP"/"ybp" — is this in widespread use in the field? Otherwise it's confusing to general readers used to AD/CE, BC/BCE 3) When reading, I got lost pretty quickly; I never really got a grip as to what this topic is all about. Perhaps adding connecting, contextualising sentences at the start of each section should give the reader hints as to what he's about to be reading about, before launching into details. — Matt 23:18, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Leo Frank

This is a fine biographical article that covers a very problematic period in US history from a little-known angle. Danny 13:34, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

  • I do not object, but perhaps more wiki-links could be added. -- Emsworth 13:50, Jun 13, 2004 (UTC)
    • I am opposed to the practice of linking solely because it is (technically) possible, such, for example, as is frequently done -- to my mind excessively so -- with non-signficant dates and basic English nouns. See Wikipedia:Make only links relevant to the context. -- Viajero 14:55, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
      • I can't remember where it says it, but you are supposed to link all dates, so that the software can automatically convert them to the user's specified date preferance. →Raul654 17:30, Jun 18, 2004 (UTC)
      • The nine-paragraph section "The Trial of Leo Frank" is completely unwikified, it is very likely that it could be genuinely improved by appropriate links. As regards dates, Wikipedia:Tip_of_the_day_archive#Dynamic_date_conversion recommends Wikifying all dates. — Matt 15:08, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
        • Links may enhance an article but they won't improve it. -- Viajero 18:14, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Object. I found this to be an interesting and well-written article. The lead section needs to be larger (currently it's a single sentence). I also think that the single-sentence paragraphs in Leo Frank#Aftermath should be merged into a few, longer paragraphs. (As a side note: if this article is to go on the main page, should we "obscure" the hanging corpse picture behind a link, rather than having it inline? Some may find it a little unpleasant.) — Matt 14:05, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
    • leading and trailing paragraphs fixed. -- Viajero 14:55, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
      • The lead is still a little short, IMO. A large portion of the article discusses the trial, appeals and the sentence; this should be summarised too. — Matt 15:08, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Support. Acegikmo1 23:45, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Fanny Blankers-Koen

Self-nomination. I'm sure some of you will object because the article has no pictures; unfortunately, I have been unable to find any for which I was certain about the copyright. Therefore: pictures are very welcome! (I've also placed a request at Wikipedia:Requested_pictures). Jeronimo 20:16, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

  • This is a neutral vote, but it would be a good idea to correct the contractions (couldn't should be could not, for example) and to replace the abbreviations (mostly m for metres) with full words. In a couple of instances times are not properly explained (11,2 what? Seconds? Minutes?). Exploding Boy 06:38, Jun 5, 2004 (UTC)
    • The Manual of Style says nothing about eliminating contractions. Couldn't is just about the best example there is of a contraction that sounds schoolmarmish and stilted when you write it out. As for "m" for meters, it's not an abbreviation — the official event name is '4 x 100m relay'. Moreover, 'm' is a universal abbreviation; it will be understood everywhere. (But couldn't is also universally understood as could not, so perhaps you're just in favor of verbosity on principle...) --TreyHarris 09:12, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
      • SI units such as m, kg, etc, are not abbreviations. They are symbols. That is why (a) they are never followed by a period except at the end of a sentence, and (b) there is no space between a number and a symbol. 15L is correct, 15 L is not. Denni☯ 04:28, 2004 Jun 16 (UTC)
    • Contractions are not a feature of academic writing. They are reserved for speech and casual writing. Good writing never sounds schoolmarmish (good word, there) or stilted. The manual may not specifically mention contractions (though it should), but it does say that abbreviations are not necessary. Exploding Boy 02:34, Jun 6, 2004 (UTC)
  • Support. I rarely enjoy sports articles, but this one I found very interesting. Can we get a picture though?--TreyHarris 09:12, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Object — parts of the article alternate between present and past tense, for example: However, in 1949, she travels abroad to promote women's athletics, flying to Australia and the United States. A darker episode in Blankers-Koen's life occurred in 1950.. Other nit: it might be a good idea to either close up "100 m" -> "100m", or "100 m" -> "100 m" to stop "100" and "m" from breaking at the end of the line for certain window widths. Interesting article, though, and a photo or two would probably help. — Matt 22:45, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
    • I think I've eliminated all past/present tense problems, and I also changed all contractions. I also introduced the measurements meters/yards with a link the first time of their appearance, and also added seconds at the first occurrence in the text. I have not altered the "100 m" issue yet. I think this should really be solved by the wiki-markup, as 100m is ugly in print, and 100 m looks extremely ugly in edit. Perhaps there should be a tag (like in LaTeX) "don't break up this word"? Jeronimo 12:46, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Object. No picture. -Pedro 22:56, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
    • I expected this, but how will we get any legel images? Many of the other articles on this page also have dubious images (check Papal Tiara or Alan Turing), and I could easily rip a "widely used image" with "no clear copyrights" from the web. Ideas, anyone? Jeronimo 08:57, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
      • support. Pedro 10:20, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Object. Uses non-free image (Image:Cover FBK bio.jpg). anthony (see warning) 13:10, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

How about this image:

http://www.kb.nl/kb/hpd/diensten/boekennieuws/img/koningin.jpg

RickK 00:51, Jun 13, 2004 (UTC)

  • Thanks, I've added it. It's not perfect, but still better than nothing. I assume Pedro's objection is resolved because of this. Jeronimo 12:21, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Possibly, but I now object — sorry to be a git, but I think the image is poor (small, with large text all over it), and a photo included in a Featured Article should be better. I understand that it's a pain in the neck to get hold of a decent photo, though. — Matt 12:49, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I have brough up the issue of fair-use images on the village pump before, and discussed it several times with Jamesday. Simply put - featured article should include a picture unless it is so abstract as to preclude one (for example, there is no concievable way solohpism could include a picture). That being said, that does not mean it has to be GFDL/PD - it can be fair use. Anthony's objection is hereby ignored. →Raul654 19:22, Jun 14, 2004 (UTC)

You can't just ignore my objection. We're making a free encyclopedia. We shouldn't have featured articles with non-free images. Raul's assertion that my objection is ignored is hereby ignored. anthony (see warning)

Papal Tiara

Woa, who knew one can write 1000 words on a hat! --Menchi 10:55, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

  • Support--I moved a section on multiple tiaras to the top, as otherwise it was confusing. Fascinating read. Meelar 16:48, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Support-- I remember coming across this article last year (before we had featured articles), and stopping to read the whole thing. Great work. - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 17:14, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)
  • Support. jengod 01:59, Jun 10, 2004 (UTC)
  • Support. — Matt 14:12, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Tenatively Support, as the article is well done, but am correcting factual errors in several places. (666 is the Number of the Beast, not of the Antichrist. | Still trying to disambiguate which Pope Silvester is mentioned where... (There were 2.)) Nothing major, but, if it's to be featured, I want it to be the BEST of what wikipedia does. -- Long, Tall Texan 23:57, Jun 10, 2004 (UTC)
  • Support, interesting. Smerdis of Tlön 00:20, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Strongly support. 172 00:21, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Support. Wonderfully arcane. Denni 06:42, 2004 Jun 11 (UTC)
  • object. "Antipope Gregory XVII (1978-present) ..." this seens an ad to an unknown/funny personality. Seens a bit anti-catholic. -Pedro 22:53, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Neutral. I would support, but for the shaky copyright status of the images. I'll leave it for those who know more than me about US copyright law to decide whether that's a problem. Markalexander100 02:33, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Object. Several of the images are justified by the phrase, "no copyright notice anywhere" or something along those lines. Worldwide, a claim of copyright is not necessary for a work to be copyrighted, copyright is automatic. True, this is a recent development, and this images are old. But still, it's possible that they are copyrighted, whether there's a notice or not, and we need better attribution of the source of these images to determine if in fact they are clear for use. --TreyHarris 08:49, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Object per copyright issues. anthony (see warning) 13:03, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Chicken sexer

Fun (yet for real...folks called chicken sexers do indeed exist out there) article...not a huge article, but sizeable enough, IMO, to be a featured article. Good organization and writing; seems to be well-researched. Catdude 06:15, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

No - far, far, far, far too short. →Raul654 06:20, Jun 13, 2004 (UTC)
Object. I also think it's too short, and I doubt that it has the potential to be longer. - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 06:34, Jun 13, 2004 (UTC)
Erm... your statement denies the philosophy that any article, given enough effort, can be made a featured article, doesn't it? I think there is a place for short featured articles. This isn't it, though, so I'm not going to defend chicken sexer, but I'll say here how it could become a featured article to my mind--while remaining relatively short (say, doubling in size):
  1. It needs some information about the history of chicken sexing. Surely it didn't spring in whole cloth from the mind of an anonymous Japanese poultry farmer sometime in the past five years and now everyone's doing it.
  2. Why is chicken sexing useful? Why not just wait until the secondary sexual characteristics begin to show up to segregate hens from roosters?
  3. What is the Japanese connection? Why is chicken sexing taught more widely there?
  4. It sounds vaguely agri-businessy to me. Is it? Are chicken sexers more likely to be found in large corporate chicken plants than in the larger family farms?
Personally, I'd fully support this article as a featured article if these questions were answered. Length alone does not determine quality. --TreyHarris 19:07, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the analysis, TreyHarris. You have some excellent points as to how this article could be augmented. I'll use some of those ideas as templates to perhaps point out to others how their articles might be made into a featured article! —Catdude 01:57, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I did a bit more digging on Google, and came up with the names of the Japanese people whose publication of a paper on the subject in the 1930s revealed this mystery to an eager world, and added that to the article. I may try to find it and see if there is more on the earlier history of the art in it. Smerdis of Tlön 15:38, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Personal rapid transit

  • Fascinating article about how mass transportation can be made as convenient as personal transportation, and how some astonishing headway has already been made in this direction with futuristic transportation systems now in use. Superior writing and organization, as well as good references and excellent external links. Catdude 06:28, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • I support the nomination. The article is thorough in terms of information and of excellent quality in regard to diction. -- Emsworth 00:51, Jun 13, 2004 (UTC)
  • I'd like to see at least one more photo. Exploding Boy 01:41, Jun 13, 2004 (UTC)
  • Minor objection. The large sections "Safety and Utility" and "Engineering Economics" are mostly unwikified: only 2 links. — Matt 02:12, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Wiki

This is a fascinating article, very well written, and good use of images where you wouldn't expect any. Meelar 19:17, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

  • It's well written, but I'm not so sure it would work on the front page... A new user might be confused and might think that Wikipedia is specifically about Wiki's, and not a general Encyclopedia. - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 19:23, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)
    • Maybe some articles could have "featured" status, but be flagged on the FA page as not being suited for the Main Page? Fredrik (talk) 19:32, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
      • I would support in that case. I am just concerned that there is already too much stuff about "what a wiki is, etc" on the front page. This would just be overkill. - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 19:58, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Support, with the stipulation that it not go on the Main Page. It's an excellent article, but putting it as the FA on the Main Page just seems self-important and navel-gaze-y. - jredmond 19:57, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Agree with that. The Featured category is to recognize good articles, not to get on the main page necessarily. By all means, flag it off the main page. Meelar 20:11, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
    • Neutral on the article. The decision on whether to list an article on the front page should be left to whoever's undertaking that task at the time, not to those who discussed whether the article should be featured. Markalexander100 03:23, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
      • As the "one who is undertaking the task", I'm inclined to agree with your assertion. →Raul654 03:49, Jun 12, 2004 (UTC)
  • Object. I don't mean to nitpick, but, in any event: 1. The article inconsistently uses both "wiki" and "wikis" as plural. 2. The ellipsis at the end of the "Searching" section indicates that the section is incomplete. 3. The section "Wiki communities" uses the second person. 4. The ellipsis in "Jargon" indicates that the section is incomplete. 5. The section "Controlling users" includes grammatical errors. The first offending sentence is "Some wiki engines allow banning individual users from editing, which can be accomplished by banning their particular IP address or their username, if they are using one." Individual users are to be banned; therefore, the sentence should refer to "IP addresses," "usernames," and "using them." Alternatively, "individual users" may be replaced with "an individual user," "their" with "his or her", and "they are" with "he or she is." A similar error may be observed in the sentence "For small wikis, a common defense against a persistent 'vandal' is to simply let them deface as many pages as they want to, and to then quickly revert the pages after the vandal has left." 6. The article refers to "Quote from the book Foundation by Isaac Asimov" instead of "Quotation ..." 7. Certain sentences contain unclear phrases, such as "Because of that" and "this is." Preferable would be clearer phrases that are used elsewhere in the article, including "this mechanism" and "this process." 8. The statement "Most wiki history is purposely lost (or ignored), as the wiki nature is to forget the past, and what is known is often only known as lore through an oral tradition" appears to be vague and offers very little explanation regarding the basis of the conclusions stated therein. -- Emsworth 00:39, Jun 13, 2004 (UTC)
  • oppose. verified some of the problems specified by emsworth user. Badanedwa 02:47, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)

Robert Oppenheimer

A really fascinating read, well written and illustrated, with great detail. I looked it up because I was searching for the quote he said after the bomb went off, and found myself reading the entire thing. Meelar 06:23, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

  • Object: The beginning has to many details about his early life, listing every illness, and the second half gets quite short. The famous security hearing should be described in more detail, explaining Oppenheimer's political views then and before that, during WW2, the debate with Edward Teller involved, the discussion about the hearing, its place in the history of McCarthyism, the controversy about it being just, the consequences for Oppenheimer, th later rehabilitation by JFK, the celebrated docu-drama by Heiner Kipphardt about the matter. Also the pblic role of Oppenheimer, being called "the Father of the Bomb" by the press etc... All this is highly interesting and had great influence (a) on the public perception of physics as a science and (b) on today's physicists view of their own role and responsibility towards the public. Wishing my knowledge was precise enough so I could contribute all this. Simon A. 21:48, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

47 Ronin

Stop writing good articles and I'll stop nominating them willy-nilly! :) jengod 23:09, May 21, 2004 (UTC)

  • Support. Johnleemk 04:59, 22 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Ancheta Wis 09:33, 22 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, but I think it probably needs at least one picture. Unfortunately, I can't think of any off the top of my head. -Litefantastic 22:10, 22 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]
  • Object. I think it really needs an image. A plain drawing of a samuri would do, but surely a story as famous as this is represented in dozens or hundreds of paintings? -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 22:42, 22 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]
  • Shouldn't this be at Forty-seven Ronin, not 47 Ronin? -- Emsworth 02:27, 30 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]
    • I agree, the name is terrible with a number. -Pedro 08:37, 30 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]
      • I think it depends on whether you write out one to nine or one to ninety-nine. If you prefer the latter, there's no reason an encyclopedia article can't begin with a numeral. IJS. :) jengod 22:09, Jun 2, 2004 (UTC)
        • Anyway, the page has been moved thanks to James F. Johnleemk 12:00, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • I will support this article. But the writing style has to be changed a bit. The narrator sounds as if he has seen the action first-hand. Tone it down for NPOV. Mandel 21:55, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Support. The article is great, and the new graphic is very appropriate. - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 14:22, Jun 10, 2004 (UTC)
  • Support. Simon A. 16:41, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Support. Since Finlay is back on board, moved back to the top half of the page. Long, Tall Texan 07:13, Jun 11, 2004 (UTC)
  • Object (though I'd like to be convinced otherwise). I really enjoyed this article, and I think it is a gripping story. I've two concerns. One is that the story section is titled "The original events"; can we be confident these were the original events? What evidence gives us that confidence? Secondly, if the article is about the 47-ronin story (historically true or not) should we include (one of the versions of) the story directly as a lengthy narrative? I think we should rather summarise the main events of the story, and not include lots of details like They searched the house, but all they found were crying women and children. They began to despair, but Ōishi checked Kira's bed, and it was still warm, so he knew he could not be far. — Matt 22:31, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
    • What's wrong with tiny details? Johnleemk | Talk 06:18, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Alan Turing

A historically enormously significant person. If this article is inadequate in its current state to be a featured article (which is quite likely, I know), then I would be more than happy to do some research and build it up. - Mark 04:11, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC) (EDIT: Oh, I forgot to add this was a bit of a self nomination - I have edited this article a few times)

  • Support. Excellent article, though I find the absence of mention of Ultra a bit puzzling. It needs a minor copyedit, though, preferably by someone for whom BE is native language. --TreyHarris 05:55, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Support. Well written, not too short and not too long. Simon A. 12:02, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Support. Just a well-written, fascinating read. I was familiar with Turing for his eponymous machine, but the details of his cryptography work and personal life are also interesting. - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 14:20, Jun 10, 2004 (UTC)
  • Absolutely support. Interesting, well-organized, and complete enough for the lay reader. Could use a minor copyedit touchup, but not critical. Denni 06:26, 2004 Jun 11 (UTC)
  • Support, however, I would like to see his codebreaking work expanded. I would do it, but I'd rather vote for now. --Etaonish 00:50, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Support. Andris 00:41, Jun 12, 2004 (UTC)
  • Object. I read yesterday that Alan Turing proposed to a Joan Clark, but broke off the engagement; something should be mentioned about this. Moreover, the section on his codebreaking work is far too short — he's arguably the world's most famous cryptanalyst — and also not clear enough (IMO): Turing is occasionally miscredited with breaking the Enigma and designing and building Colossus entirely by himself. Because of this I think the article should be very precise and particular in what feats it ascribes to Turing. (Also, was he the head of hut 8 at Bletchley Park?)— Matt 21:24, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Object. Unclear image copyright status. anthony (see warning) 13:09, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Fusion power

Fascinating article. Needs only minor copyedits and a little organizing to make this into an excellent article. --Etaonish 19:46, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

  • Object. Needs pictures, and preferrably several of them. Fredrik (talk) 19:57, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Object: Some important things are missing, i.e. mentioning of the stellarator, the Z-pinch machine, bubble fusion, history of the idea, research funding (international, getting difficult), recent funding cuts, history of approach to break-even, foci of research (magnetic confinement in Europe, inertial confinement in the US) etc. Maybe I manage to add a bit. Simon A. 21:36, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Object. Please add a better explanation of what, exactly, this concept is, and how it provides power. A diagram, I'm thinking, would go well here. Meelar 21:38, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Portugal

Self-nomination. W/the country's true history and culture. It is a bit extensive. Full of dates, a bit like a paper encyclopedia. Feel free to edit it. -Pedro 22:47, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

  • Object for now - It needs a longer lead section and the history needs to be summarized and the detail moved to History of Portugal (which is oddly shorter than the history section at Portugal). A 4 to 5 paragraph summary of the history should be in the history section. --mav 00:43, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • Object. the lead section is just the right size and should not expanded. Culture of Portugal has less content than the culture section of this page. Keep the section to 2-4 paragraphs long and move the rest to the dughter articles, which should be much more longer. --Jiang 09:31, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
  • I'll try to summarize later, but you should remember that the country has a long history (almost 900 yrs of independence) and now it is pretty condenced and many relevant facts are not even showned. I'ld Appreciate Grammar correction, cause i'm not an English-speaker. -Pedro 11:12, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
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