Talk:Yayoi period

About revising this article

I have revised this article to provide a neutral point of view.Please remember this article belongs to "History of Japan",and I believe a fair point of view is to respect how Japan has autonomously developed itself.This article is not for other ethnic groups to exaggerate,boast influence on Japan.Nobu Sho 11:03, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Fairness does not require bowing to nationalism. Factual accuracy is more important than avoiding the implication that the Japanese are related to the Koreans. The Jomon and Yayoi peoples are genetically distinct (i.e. one group did not spring fresh from the other), and most evidence points to a migration from Korea into Japan. --71.56.32.77 10:39, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

You both are talking about the part deleted by Nobu Sho on Dec. 29 last year? I have something to feel like talking to you both...

Nobu Sho, if you say somebody exaggerated or boasted something, you should have clarified what they were... and you should put a blank after a comma and a period.

And Mr./Ms. 71.56.32.77, to use words like "nationalism" abruptly can sometimes offend somebody.

But it's also true that I have felt some unnaturalness when the matters on Korea and Japan are discussed on Wikipedia. Nobody can deny Yayoi time Japan had some relationship with Korea, but Korea was not an only region that had something to do with Japan then. During Yayoi period in Japan, Korea was much less populated than Chunqiu and Zhanguo period China, and it's no wonder Japan had much more immigrants from China through Korea, as some archaeological sites suggest. (BTW, how much population did Korean peninsula have during Japan's Yayoi period? Korea has and had colder climate than Japan, so was Korea more suitable to inhabit in than Japan?) Mentioning on China and Polynesia (which are likely to be origines of Japan's rice farming) will not make people look down on Korea. We can calm down a bit more. -222.4.16.15 11:40, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion, 222.4.16.15. What made me frustrated about the fomer article is that it would only emphasize one particular "Immigrants from the Korean peninsula" theory. In addition it includes Korean Kingdoms such as Goguryeo or Baekje which never existed at that time. Ignoring other theories could not make a fair article, therefore I have decided to introduce some others. Maybe I could have talked like this from the beginning. I've forgot to login in when I revised this article again. Nobu Sho 23:39, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Korean "nationalists" get a kick out of boasting that Japanese this and Japanese that originated in Korea partly because of their agonizing experience of subservience to Japan in the early 20th century. For example:

Alexander Bennett, ph. D, KOREA: The Black Ships of Kendo: "Recently, a new phenomenon has started to become apparent. One of the most significant contributors to the popularization of budo in recent years is not only the Japanese, but also the Koreans. There has been a noticeable trend in the appearance of dojang around the world rather than dojo. Dojang is the Korean word for dojo, and where the Japanese left off, the Koreans are taking positive strides to pick up on the basis of most of the reasons I have outlined above....　This interesting phenomenon of the gradual Koreanisation of budo overseas is perceived by the Koreans as the internationalization of their own Korean martial arts heritage. The Koreans are aggressive in their dissemination, sometimes nationalistic, and often very commercial in their approach, providing attractive packages for their students and instructors alike, not to mention propositions of business partnerships with already existing dojo.... What effect could this possibly have on Japanese budo? In this paper I will consider the case example of kendo.... As colonies of Japan, the Taiwanese and Korean populace were also 'encouraged' to participate in these activities. Koreans took to budo with unexpected enthusiasm, and even when the war ended and the Republic of Korea was established, they maintained a commitment to kendo that persists to this day, evident in the comparatively high level and large population of enthusiasts. However, in many ways the old wounds of the occupation have still not healed, and in a nationwide revisionist stance, Koreans for the most part refuse to entertain the notion that the sport's origins lie in Japan, and instead call it 'kumdo', insisting that it originated in Korea. For example, to demonstrate this [color=red]revisionist[/color] mentality, I have quoted the historical information placed on the official homepage of the Korea Kumdo Association."

That so many Korean posters take almost obsessive interests in the topic of ancient Japanese history on Wikipedia and other internet discussion forums is not without a reason. It should also be remembered that the nation that we know today as "Korea" did not exist back in the ancient days, and that anyone writing a statement like "such and such came from Korea" is politicizing historical facts (knowingly or not). For whatever came from the Korean peninsula is just that, it came from the Korean peninsula, period; it doesn't necessarily follow that it came from "Korea" because chances are that the ancient kingdoms that existed on the peninsula thousands of years ago were not all of ethnics that are direct ancestors of modernday "Koreans." Being attached to the Eurasia continent the population drift has been much more active on the peninsula. Goguryeo, for one, is considered to be most likely a kingdom of the Buyeo, who were related to today's Manchurians. --207.232.153.30 00:31, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

let's not get carried away to either extreme. there are probably at least as many japanese contributors obsessed with korean history articles here. & 207.232.153.30 may have his own version of history, but there is no real controversy about korean kingdoms dominating the peninsula by around 300 AD (obviously having grown from states founded much earlier), that the languages and culture of the korean kingdoms were closely related, and that migration and cultural flow generally travelled from china to korea to japan (yes, specifically from korean kingdoms on the korean peninsula, not just somewhere vaguely in the "mainland" or "continent"). the correctly balanced version may be between the two being reverted, but some basic facts about migration or cultural flow are not quite so mysterious or contentious among reputable scholars. Appleby 01:09, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Just a point though, Appleby, is that the period that we're talking about (the Yayoi) does not relate to the Silla/Paekche/Goguryeo period, but rather to the Three Han period (which became Silla, Paekche and Kaya/Mimana), and the end of the preceding Lo-Lang Commandarie in Korean history. With your talk of cultural transmission you seem to be confusing and combining the interations which took place around the start of the Yayoi period (which this article necessarily deals with) and later, more direct interventions, politically and militarily, between the Three Kingdoms and Yamato through the 4th-6th centuries, during the Kofun/Asuka Eras. There could have been no transmission from Korea to Japan during the Yayoi period as you imply, because neither nation existed as such.

Personally, I tend to favour the peninsular (NOT Korean) transmission theory based upon the archaeological evidence found on both sides of the straits, but to assign a flavour other than continental to it is unsupportable.Kurohone 06:03, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

It's interesting to note that there tends to be this bias in favor of calling the islands then specifically "Japan" and the peninsula then more vaguely "the Korean peninsula" or "Asian continent". The fact of the matter is that civilization on the peninsula was far more developed than on the islands at the time. There was indeed a distinctly Korean civilization already present with organized monarchies, while the islands were still comprised of tribes. Anyhow, the general consensus among historians and archaeologists is that there was undeniably a huge transfusion of culture and large-scale migration from what is now Korea to Japan during the Yayoi period.--Sir Edgar 06:20, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Geneticists attempting to calculate the relative contributions of Korean-like Yayoi genes and Ainu-like Jomon genes to the modem Japanese gene pool have concluded that the Yayoi contribution was generally dominant. Thus, immigrants from Korea really did make a big contribution to the modern Japanese, though we cannot yet say whether that was because of massive immigration or else modest immigration amplified by a high rate of population increase. Genetic studies of the past three years have also at last resolved the controversy about the origins of the Ainu: they are the descendants of Japan's ancient Jomon inhabitants, mixed with Korean genes of Yayoi colonists and of the modern Japanese. [1]

"The Yayoi period (c. 300 BCE to 300 CE) saw the introduction of a full-scale agricultural economy into the islands of Japan. This economy was initially associated with immigration from the Korean Peninsula. Currently the most widely accepted interpretation of this evidence is that continental rice farmers spread to Japan from the Korean Peninsula at the beginning of the Yayoi period. It has been argued that the Japanese language also spread to the archipelago at this time. As well as rice farming, a variety of other items and technologies were introduced from Korea in the Yayoi. These include the use of bronze and iron, domesticated pigs, wooden and stone agricultural tools, megalithic burials, and certain types of pottery. [2]

The Yayoi period brought also the introduction of iron and other modern ideas from Korea into Japan. [3]

In the Initial and Early Yayoi, and in the Korean Plain Pottery that formed the roots of Yayoi ceramics, more fuel was used than in the Middle and Late phases. [4]

Dolmens have been investigated as an important trait of the rice agriculture-based cultural complex introduced from the southern region of the Korean peninsula to Japan in the Initial and Early Yayoi periods. The dolmens of Japan originated in the Nam-gung River basin of Southern Korea. Dolmens were firstly introduced to the Genkai-nada coastal region and then diffused to the surrounding regions. [5]

now, the flow & wording can certainly be improved, & the content should be modified when you provide appropriate citations to different theories. i'm not saying there are no alternative theories, but we have to present them roughly proportionally, as viewed by the academic field. if you just continue to revert to your fringe nationalistic theories presented as equally plausible, equally accepted scholarly theories, without any citations, we will have to go to mediation. Appleby 18:48, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

That some corpses from the Yahoi had the same mtDNA sequence as the ones of some modernday Korean individuals means just that. The most that could be inferred from this finding is that the Yahoi and Koreans might have had the same ancestors. It doesn't follow that Yayoi came from "Korea" for the Yayoi and "Koreans" might have diverged in two when they were still living up in the northern Eurasia several thousands of years ago and not at the time of the Yayoi period. As usual the Korean mass media swarmed on this finding when it came out, and Takao Inoue, one of the researchers, excessed his concern for the abuse of the scientific research result for political agenda (see [6]). 207.232.153.30 05:30, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

1. The article below shows the controversy over the true ancestors of the modern Japanese.Jomon Genes

During the last century, anthropologists have fiercely debated whether the Jomon or the Yayoi were the true ancestors of the modern Japanese. For most of this debate's history, scientists have addressed the issue by comparing Asian languages, analyzing archaeological ruins, and measuring dental or other skeletal remains.

Over the last few years, another kind of evidence has begun to have an impact on the debate. By studying the genes of modern Japanese and of other Asians, and even the ancient DNA in the fossilized bones of the Jomon and the Yayoi, investigators hope to put together a genetic history of Japan. Researchers have recently examined, for example, the Y chromosomes of people throughout Asia

"Our data clearly show that both Yayoi and Jomon genes have made a contribution to the contemporary gene pool," says Michael F. Hammer, who presented the Y chromosome research in October 1996 at the American Society of Human Genetics meeting in San Francisco

"The Jomon are the obvious ancestors of the Ainu but not of modem Japanese," says C. Lonng Brace, an anthropologist at the University in Michigan in Ann Arbor.

"Genetically, there's not much difference between the Jomon people and the current Japanese," asserts Masatoshi Nei. a population geneticist at Pennsylvania State University in State College and one of the strongest supporters of the transformation model.

2. Also it is argued where the Yayio people where from.

In 2001, the National Science Museum of Japan has held an exhibition named "Long Journey to Prehistorical Japan" which estimates the Yayoi people came from southern China where bones resembling Yayoi people were discovered. Yayoi Bones

3. About wet-field rice

A recent research has assumed that some of the rice in Japan may have been introduced directly from China.This research was made by Dr. Yoichiro Sato, by examining the DNA of wet field rice traditionaly grown in Japan, China, and Korea. The RM1-b gene popular in Japanse rice were found from 61 kinds of rice out of 90 in China, but none were found out of 55 in Korea. See the map in this interview. The Road Rice Came

4. You have ignored the archaeological facts of Jomon Culture.

The tradition of Jomon culture has been handed down to Yayoi culture. Some pieces of Yayoi pottery clearly show the influence of Jomon ceramics and Yayoi people lived in the same kind of pit-type or circular dwellings of the Jomon period. Other examples are chipped stone tools for hunting, bone tools for fishing,bracelets made from shells and lacquer skills for vessels and accessories.

Many Yayoi vessels resemble pots found in Korea, and some scholars have proposed that the Yayoi style originated in that land, arriving first in northern Kyushu and gradually spreading northeastward. Nevertheless, some pieces clearly show the influence of Jomon ceramics, leading others to speculate that Yayoi wares were the product of an indigenous evolution from the less elaborate Jomon wares of northern Kyushu. "Yayoi Culture" at The Metropolitan Museum of Art

5. About the Japanese Language

It doesn't belong to this page, refer to the Japonic languages page. Your article does not explain why Okinawan and some other southern island languages are included in the Japonic languages.

6. Finaly, would you like an article about the Korean economy like this? This is just like what you wrote.But I wouldn't write such on Wikipedia, because I do certainly respect South Korea.

Many industries and industrial products in South Korea "clearly derive from the Japanese islands" including "semiconductors, plasma TVs, LCD TVs, DVD players, VTRs, digital camcorders, laser printers, refrigerators, air conditioners, steel plants, machine tools, ball bearings, fork lifts, elevators, escalators, water-purifying devices, tankers, diesel engines, dockyards, automobiles, motocycles, etc."

Again I say I'll never write an article like this because I know the Koreans have made a great effort by themselves and of course they are the main characters of their ecnomic achievments.Can't Koreans live without thinking about Japan and the Japanese? The Japanese do not boast about giving assistance to the Koreans. Korea is now a big country and I also know in some fields the Koreans are doing better than the Japanese. It's time to be spiritually independent from Japan.

7. Now I belive I can revert this article. As I'm not a native English speaker, I welcome people correcting English (and the composition) of this article. Thank you for spoiling my date. Nobu Sho 23:24, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

We're not spoiling your date, son, you are, by doing this. That's your choice, not ours. Your last point shows your bias...you're trying very hard to not show it, for honorable or dishonorable reasons, but it's plain there...you don't want the 'Korean' associate with Japanese history. Unfortunately, it's there. Whether or not wet rice was introduced in some parts of Japan direct from China does not change that it is very probable that it was also introduced from Korea around the same time. Yayoi pottery showing signs of derivation from Jomon does not deny the deriviance from Korean styles. Your version/reversion of the article, in its structure and content, clearly tries to mask or limit the import of the Korean/continental influence.

The structure of Appleby's article is easier to read for English readers, and is more thorough in it's treatment of the various theories of Yayoi influence. What you are saying _should_ be in there, but you should _not_ delete what's already there, as you have been doing.Kurohone 06:16, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Hold on, is this entire argument over the inclusion of Chinese origins in this page? We just need someone to find some good reliable sources, put in the info, and cite it. No need to have all the users of wikipedia arguing about something so easily solved. I dunno about you guys but I kind of want to get the 'the neutrality of this article is disupted' sign on the page. Bipedal 09:05, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

"Korea" vs. "Korean peninsula"

Hello, a recent edit by Deiaemeth prompted me to add this comment here. For those revising this article, please bear in mind that the use of the term "Korean peninsula" is deliberate, not a mistake. Please do not change this to "Korea", as the nation known as "Korea" did not exist during the Yayoi period. This would be roughly similar to saying that some of the tribes that invaded ancient Rome came from Germany, or that ancient Rome was the capital of Italy, both of which are incorrect as neither "Germany" nor "Italy" existed at the time. Thank you, Eiríkr Útlendi 16:58, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I hear what you're saying, but comparing Rome and ancient Germanic tribes this this particular instance would be wrong. The culture came from Korean Kingdoms of Baekje and Goguryeo (and some from Proto-three Kingdoms of Korea). Terming Korea does not necessarily mean culture flowed from South Korea or North Korea, but forerunners of these states. Following your logic, we should term every instances in which Japan is mentioned before Meiji Restoration as Japanese Archipelago, which would be wrong as well. Deiaemeth 00:14, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

You're wrong on this because of the period that we're talking about...the Yayoi period and the Kofun period are not the same. Baekjae, Goguryeo, and Silla did not exist during the Yayoi period...even the Samhan Kingdoms do not start to consolidate until halfway through Yayoi (around 0 CE). The period where theorized Korean intervention starts to dramatically change the archipelago culture starts two centuries before this time.

Incidentally, while techinically you are correct in stating that 'Japan' did not exist at this time, it is still in keeping within academic guidelines to refer to the archipelago in question as 'Japan', given that we are talking about a period in Japanese history. Likewise, it would be foolish to continually insist on the usage of 'Korean peninsula' in an article about Goguryeo.Kurohone 05:29, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Fouding Baekje and Goguryeo does date back to 30 BCE and 75 BCE respectively (or 200 BCE for goguryeo, as some Chinese records state), - it did exist during Yayoi period, as Yayoi period lasted from 300 BCE to 250 AD as the article mentions. Ancient Korean state of Jin-Guk, predecessor of Samhan states already existed around 300 BCE, and ancient Korean state of Gojoseon were still around till 108 BCE. Civilizations and kingdoms that are forerunners to Modern Korean state(s) were already consolidated and readily developing when Japan went through the Yayoi Period. It's misleading to use the term "Korean peninsula" - if you think "Korea" is a problem, you could replace "Korean peninsula" with the names of these ancient states. Eirikir mentioned that when you talk about the Roman Empire, you do not necessarily note it as an Italian state. But when you talk about cultural influence of Roman Empire, you don't use the term "Italian Peninsula", it's just simply misleading. Deiaemeth 07:59, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I have argued the same problem in an another page, Japanese people. You are making political attemps as if Japanese history has derived from other nationalities by only refering to legendary states such as Gojoseon.

1. You have also ignored other historical records; according to Samguk Sagi, Records of Silla, the earliest attack of Wa people (ancestors of Japanese) has occured in in 50 B.C. It means Wa people have went back and forth the strait; it doesn't necessary mean that people from the Korean peninsula were people of the states of that region (even if they existed).

2. An another fact is from the Book of Later Han (Hou Han Shu). In A.D. 57, Na state of Wa has received an golden stamp from the Emperor of the Later Han dynasty.[7] Japanese states were developing at the same time. Nobu Sho 21:58, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

From the article on Gaya: "On the basis of archeological sources as well as limited written records, scholars such as Cheol (2000) have identified the late 3rd century as a period of transition from Byeonhan to Gaya." The transformation of the other Proto-Hans into Baekjae and Silla reespectively occured at about the same time.

'Traditional' founding dates that are quoted in the articles regarding the 3 Kingdoms are every bit as unreliable as stating that Jimmu-tenno founded Japan in 660 BC...it's not based upon any sort of archaelogical evidence. And they are _still_ irrelevant towards the idea of Korean influence in the Yayoi period, as the period was _triggered_ in 250 BCE by some event (be it of continental origin or not) that _still_ precedes the mythical founding dates by two full centuries!Kurohone 05:35, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I will not refer to Samguk Sagi here, but the golden stamp was actually found so I believe we could refer to Book of Later Han (Hou Han Shu). Nobu Sho 22:06, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

---

Eiríkr here. I find revert wars very frustrating, so rather than make any changes that would no doubt pour fuel on some fire or other, I thought I'd try to enter into discussion here.

I somewhat understand Deiaemeth's point, which I think is simply about not being pedantic, but I find myself disagreeing, in part as saying "Korea" implies a single nation. I understand that the Korea page itself discusses the term in relation to the geographical peninsula and the ancient cultures, but in common parlance, saying "Korea" unavoidably calls to mind the modern nation states of the peninsula, attendant with all the politics that go with. Looking back into the past, it's also worth pointing out that, as of the 5th century, Goguryeo was about half in what is now Manchuria, with the other half roughly covering what is now North Korea. The southern end was divided into at least the Baekje, Silla, and Gaya kingdoms. (This is according to the map graphic given on the Goguryeo page, about halfway down.) Meanwhile, Gojoseon seems to have been firmly located in the north, starting out in Manchuria and later migrating somewhat south of the Yalu to the Pyongyang area (per the Gojoseon page itself). So while I hear Sir Edgar's frustration in his edit comment, "Yes, there is "China" and "Japan", but not "Korea". Ridiculous chauvinism. Civilization was far more advanced in Korea than Japan at the time", I agree with Kurohone on this one, as stated above here on this page:

"Incidentally, while techinically you are correct in stating that 'Japan' did not exist at this time, it is still in keeping within academic guidelines to refer to the archipelago in question as 'Japan', given that we are talking about a period in Japanese history. Likewise, it would be foolish to continually insist on the usage of 'Korean peninsula' in an article about Goguryeo." (emphasis mine)

To be specific, "China" was indeed a place and a nation. "Korea" was not -- however advanced civilization there may have been, the area was a collection of various states, each with distinct boundaries -- and while "Japan" was not a single place or nation either, we call it "Japan" here for the sake of convenience in this article about Japanese history. So, logically, it makes more sense (at least to me) to call China "China", the geographical peninsular area the "Korean peninsula", and the Japanese archipelago "Japan". If pressed for specificity, I'm happy to be lengthy and say the "Japanese archipelago".

To wit, I don't understand the seemlingly violent vehemence with which some people insist on using the term "Korea" instead of the apparently more specific and less misleading term "Korean peninsula". Would someone please try to explain this here? And please try to do so in a calm, reasoning tone -- I'm interested in honest reasons, not polemics. Thank you, Eiríkr Útlendi 20:02, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and forgive me for a grammar nazi, but when adding or subtracting "peninsula" please remember to also add or subtract the word "the" before "Korea(n)". Thanks, Eiríkr Útlendi 20:02, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

i think it's just a matter of consistency. if you want to be more specific, both mentions should be specific, but the shorthand "korea" & "japan" are common even in academic usage. as you can see, many editors seem bent on identifying "japan" and "korean peninsula," but never "korea" and "japanese archipelago," in both korea-related and japan-related articles. for these editors, it's not an issue of consistent shorthand usage or academic accuracy, but rather something implied for one but not the other. that's why the reaction is so understandably negative. Appleby 21:31, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply, Appleby. I'm a fan of specificity where needed, and this might be a good case -- avoiding unnecessary implications would seem to be a good thing. May I suggest that we use "Korean peninsula" and "Japanese islands", at the very least at the beginning of each section where such terms are used? It is common practice in other writing to spell things out clearly to start, and use abbreviations later in the text, for instance. Things here in this article appear to be rather potshot. Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi 22:00, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this point with Kurohone and Eiríkr Útlendi. Saying "Korea" will sound like just the same people living in the present modern nations in have immigrated to Japan (again I will say "Korean peninsula" is not likely the only place, mass or limited migration is disputed). The states Goryeo and Joseon have experienced Mongol (Yuan Dynasty) and Manchu (Qing Dynasty) invasions, contol, therefore I can hardly believe people living in the "Korean peninsula" were the same 2500years ago to modern ages.

"Japanese islands", could be fine if there were good reasons. Nobu Sho 22:06, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

i'm all for specificity, & if i were writing all these articles, i would use the more specific reference throughout. however, the reactions you see are not because of specificity, but because of inconsistency of "korean peninsula," but not "japanese archipelago." if you can manage to consistently apply the style across various korea- and japan-related articles, go for it. but i'm afraid you will continue to see resistance as long as it is unevenly applied. Appleby 22:15, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Jared Diamond-related additions

I sense a brewing revert war, which I'd like to avert if possible. Nobu Sho, I respect that you find the additional content biased and POV, but might I suggest that you either:

1. add content to state alternative views to the content you dispute, or
2. reword the content you dispute to ameliorate what you see as its bias?

Personally, I mostly agree with Appleby, in that the new Jared Diamond-related content is verifiable and of apparent value in this discussion. If this content is controversial, please provide the other viewpoint(s) -- removing the content altogether does not look like the best approach for presenting a fully-rounded view. Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi 00:04, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Nobu Sho: You say the "former article emphasizes a certain theory & "Korea" before unified Silla makes no sense" and "rv POV, treating Japanese history as if derived from Korea when Korea never existed; see Origin of Korean and Japanese" when you deleted parts of the article. And seem to equate what is being said in the deleted portions to what you mistakenly believe. You mistakenly believe that what the deleted parts say is that Koreans never existed or that modern day Koreans have nothing to do with Korean people in the past. However, the first paragraph you deleted is indeed talking about modern day Koreans and modern day Japanese and how their similiarities show the unlikelihood of a Japanese people decended from the ancient Jomon people. So your point that Korea was not unified as a nation during the Yayoi period, etc. is irrelevant. The second paragraph you deleted is part of the section on Korean contributions to Yayoi culture. If there is genetic evidence that the Ainu are decendants from the Jomon, then the Yayoi came from somewhere and yes it uses the word "Korean" b/c it is a Korean genetic influence BECAUSE there are some many modern day similiarities with modern day Koreans and Japanese as shown by the citations. If you have a problem with this theory, you should get some citations and rebut it in the previous two theory sections. Likewise, your lack of apparent concern that the word "Japanese" is used for a group of people living on the Japanese archipelago is inconsistent with your continual demands that the ancient Koreans who lived on the peninsula cannot be called "Koreans". Please explain that. Finally, Jared Diamond is cited elsewhere in the History of Japan articles. Do you find those cites offensive as well? Also, i agree with Eiríkr that deletions look like information suppression, which is not good policy. (Special:Contributions/71.56.97.26)

1. To me, especially Korean related people tend to treat Japanese history as if it as if derived from Korea when Korea or Korean people never existed by showing Sinocentrism attitudes. I have shown my sources in "About revising this article" here before, I can't understand emphasizing one particular theory.

2. Next, using the word "Korean" shows contradiction here.

As for the link between Korean and Japanese languages, the grammatical structures are similar, and some aspects of the Japanese language closely resemble that of Goguryeo (modern Korean being closer to the Silla variant than Goguryeo or Baekje).

If Japanese language is closer to the language of Goguryeo than modern Korean, it will mean Goguryeo is more Japanese than Korean ; how can Goguryeo said to be Korean? This is also argued in Origin of Korean and Japanese.

3. Finally I can't get the point why ancient Japanese language can be compared with of that of Goguryeo.

Because of the Manyoshu (8C, the Japanese didn't have their own letters, but could record Japanese by Manyogana), we have a complete knowledge what Old Japanese was like around the 7 to 8 C. On the other hand we have almost no knowledge about the language of Goguryeo and Baekje, because records like Gwanggaeto Stele (5C), Samguk Sagi (12C), Samguk Yusa (13C) are written in Classical Chinese. Although I'm not farmillar with linguistics, but would it be adequate to compare documents which were written in different ages (centuries before or later), and refering to which was not written in Korean native language? Nobu Sho 19:21, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Nobu Sho: I wish you would respond to what I'm writing b/c at least then I could understand better where you are coming from b/c I think I have tried to address to the best of my ability every time you have made a change, specifically to the points you have made in this discussion.

1. Firstly,I would appreciate you cite sources in English b/c I have checked those cites and they are in Japanese.

Secondly, I am not emphasizing one theory. However, I am writing about what I know the best. I'm not sure what you mean by "emphasizing", could you explain? You seem to know a lot about the other theories. Maybe, you can add more detail to them.

Thirdly, you aren't being consistent. If you believe Korea and Koreans never existed at that time, could you explain that for me to understand. I think that is fair to say that the vast majority of people agree that the people who live on the penisula today are descendants from those ancient kingdoms. My point is, should we remove Jomon history from the History of Japan and make a separate History of the Ainu? Should we remove the Yuan Dynasty from Chinese History and add it only to History of Mongolia? Why do you only insist that this is the case with Koreans?

2. Your second point is comparing apples to oranges. In the parts you deleted, the Korean is referring to genetics, NOT language. You are bringing up a point that has little bearing with the genetic arguments being made.

3. The linguistics is a part of the theory of Korean contributions to Japan. It's not as simple as you make it to be. Jared Diamond's articles have a good and basic overview.

I am concerned with your edits b/c it seems to minimize Korean contributions. Not only that, but you try to minimize those contributions in the section devoted to that specific theory! This section is not saying it is right over other theories but it does use the current archaeological, genetic, and linguistic knowledge and sythesizes a theory based on those facts. Wikipedia:Neutral_Point_of_View 71.56.97.26

My impression is that there seems to be a looser use of the term "Japan" and "Japanese", while there is a more strict definition of what is "Korea" and "Korean". This seems odd to me as there were definitely "Korean" kingdoms long before "Japanese" tribes became organized into clans. We use terms like "Japan" and "Korea" to describe geographical areas during this time for convenience, not political purposes.

It seems though that some people, mostly nationalist Japanese historians and amateur enthusiasts, actively try to minimize "Korean" influence on "Japan" to simply as a transit point "bridge" for transferring "Chinese" culture. They describe it as the "Korean peninsula" as if civilization did not exist, as if there were no people there. This is absolutely not true. If you look at the cultural artifacts uncovered in "Japan" from this period, they were distinctly "Korean" in nature, not "Chinese". Modern Japanese archaeologists have unearthed tombs that revealed burial practices EXACTLY the same as that found in Korea (bronze mirrors, daggers, etc).

As for geographical areas, we speak of "China" in general terms and the region it covers in our minds fluctuates. The same should go for Korea, though it has mostly occupied the peninsula south of the Yalu River, and the same for Japan encompassing the main and peripheral islands. Of course, it is more accurate to say "Korean peninsula" and "Japanese archipelago", and not "Korea" and "Japan", to describe this period of pre-history. But there must be consistency in the application of these terms. Goguryeo is considered a part of "Korean" history, just like "Yayoi" is considered a part of "Japanese" history. So, for convenience, we call these areas "Korea" and "Japan".--Sir Edgar 00:43, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Look at this diagram provided by The Japan Times (Source: Satoshi Horai, "DNA Jinrui Shinkaron," AP): http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news146.htm

It compares DNA relationships between Mainland Japanese, Okinawan Japanese, the Ainu, Koreans, and Chinese.

The number of shared base-order types in the DNA between Korean and Mainland (I'm assuming this refers to the four home islands) Japanese is eight, while that between the Mainland Japanese and the Ainu and Okinawan Japanese is only four or three. In fact, all other relationships in the diagram have only two or three base-order types in common. This means that Mainland Japanese and Koreans are more closely related to each other than any other group in Northeast Asia. It also shows that if the Yayoi are the ancestors of most Japanese today, then they were probably related to the ancestors of modern-day Koreans as well.

The article even says: "Recent evidence indicates that Yayoi people crossed from the mainland and were distinct from their Ainu-like predecessors in the Jomon Period — a finding that contradicts the common idea that Japanese have an unbroken lineage stretching back to the ice age."

On a side note, this evidence shows that the Japanese are "not a genetically uniform" (homogeneous) group, as the article so states. I always thought there was a wide variety of Japanese people. Most seem to resemble Koreans, while some have similar traits to Chinese and Filipinos. And then others look like they have an Ainu appearance. Anyhow, this is fascinating.--Sir Edgar 01:08, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree, Sir Edgar, this is all very interesting. Thank you for the link. I found it humorous that I took the opening a bit differently -- "The invaders came from across the sea. / With their advanced technology and overwhelming numbers, they quickly seized a foothold in the new world. The original inhabitants — tribes of hunter-gatherers, were driven back or perished. " -- I initially saw parallels not with the European conquest of North America, but rather with the Celtic and then Anglo-Saxon conquests of Britain.  :)

And I agree that I've always been bemused by the insistence of certain loud voices in Japan that the Japanese are a homogeneous group -- anyone riding the ubiquitous trains in any major city could tell just by looking around them that there are many different phenotypes floating around. Heck, I find parts of Ohio more homogeneous than Japan. But I'm reminded of an old saying, that we see the world not as it is, but as we wish it would be.

Thank you also for clarifying usage for the terms "Korea", "China", "Japan", etc. My previous addition of the word "peninsula" was an attempt at avoiding what some have apparently come to look on as POV (as per my notes above). I wonder about other articles dealing with controversial geopolitically relevant issues, and if there might be a way of indicating within the article how the terms are used, the better to allay any suspicions about politically motivated wording? The only options I can think of would be clunky, perhaps adding a header paragraph or a sidebar. Any thoughts? My hope is to avoid revert fights, which are terribly tedious and make the page history a real mess. Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi 21:29, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I think we should stick to using terms like "Korea", "Japan", and "China". Unlike in Europe, where empires and kingdoms have risen and fallen changing completely (see Rome vs. Italy), these are continuous civilizations (at the very least, they claim to be). Thus, the application of terms is different. The only European country that I think you can compare the situation is with that of Greece.

So, the assumption that Korea came to existence in 1948 is absurd. In fact, there has never been a state called "Korea" (at least not in the Korean language). There has been Goguryeo, Goryeo, Baekje, Shilla, Gaya, Chosun, Hanguk, etc., but not Korea. However, in practice, these are all considered "Korean" and thus, "Korea". Am I making any sense?--Sir Edgar 23:38, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

That makes perfect sense to me, and I like your comparison with Europe. What I'm wondering is if something to that same effect could be noted on the main page itself, as I see a number of edits (on many pages, not just here) where the editor in question clearly hadn't looked at the Talk page before editing. Noting this nomenclature towards the top of the main page would clue people in from the start, and (hopefully) sidestep some of this term angst.  :) Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi 00:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Argument that Korea came to existence in 1948 may be absurd. However, argument that two of Three Kingdoms of Korean may not be "Korean" is not. Lot depends on whether you define "Korean" in term of geography or ethinicity. This disambiguation has been the cause of identity politics between Korea and Japan. And I don't think any serious academic in Japan or elsewhere would assert that Jomon people are ethinically Japanese. FWBOarticle

As of Diamond, I don't really know what is his background is. His writing doesn't have the content one would expect from historian or anthoropologist. It's more like cultural commentaries than anything. Still, info in his article is not controvercial. So I guess the article is a good reference for something like wikipedia. FWBOarticle

Just a quick question, why does this article have an POV violation tag? Is it because the articles presents multiple perpsectives on a controversial issue? Just curous Deiaemeth 01:06, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I corrected user:FWBOarticle's edit for reflection of the source - The Korean language that reached Japan in 400 B.C., and that evolved into modem Japanese, I suspect, was quite different from the Silla language that evolved into modern Korean. Hence we should not be surprised that modem Japanese and Korean people resemble each other far more in their appearance and genes than in their languages. Deiaemeth 01:17, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Huge ignorance over what extent DNA can tell about human "race". Firstly, DNA wise, there is no different race within human. Human is one race. DNA of different human "race" is not clear cut science. Easiest one is between Northern European and African because gene relating to pigmentation of hair and skin colour is well established. But it get harder if we compare dark hair European such as Italian or even French with Arab, Iranian or Oriental because the "combination" of genes which set face feature is not well established. For this reason, it is a silly ass argument to argue that Korean and Japanese are related because they share same gene. For one, you don't need genetic. Japanese, Korean, Mongoloian, Manchruian, Tibettan and Chinese all look alike. If someone think that DNA can establishe ancestory (and more importantly "seniority") between Korean and Japanese, he is an idiot. Japanese and Korean are same race. And this race is called Orienal not Koreanease or Japarean. For this reason, ethnicity is established by culture such as lingustic or antholopological evidence. That is why difference between Tangusic language and Korean is significant. Mr Diamond is just an author of popular books who has background in biology. I believe reference to his article does not fall into "verification" crieteria which state that source have to be "reliable". His academic credential in anthropology is zero, not to mention his zero academic credential in ancient Japanese or Korean culture or antholopology. FWBOarticle

Forgive me for disagreeing, FWBOarticle, but DNA wise, there is no different race within human depends a lot on how you define your term race. Besides which, I don't recall seeing any reference to this term anywhere in either the Yayoi article or the Jared Diamond article, outside of the term "human race", which refers to the single Homo sapiens you seem to be indicating in your comment.

To deal with your direct argument, the features genetic biologists are interested in when comparing different human gene pools for purposes of establishing relatedness have zero to do with looking at facial features. You comment, it is a silly ass argument to argue that Korean and Japanese are related because they share same gene, is not an effective argument, and instead seems to speak about your own ignorance and lack of patience with things you don't understand, which I doubt is what you were trying to say. Please tone down your language, be more polite, and try to post from a more rational and less emotional standpoint. Using epithets and strident language is unlikely to win converts to your argument. As is noted in posts and links elsewhere on this page provided by Appleby and Sir Edgar, among others, the genetic markers that biologists are looking at have been shown to be statistically significant in their occurence in certain populations -- essentially, that you can in fact show how related two groups of people are by looking at their genes. Again, this has nothing to do with comparing facial features. Have a look at Genetic fingerprinting and Ancestry-informative marker by way of example. Deriding Jared Diamond's lack of anthropological credentials is beside the point, and again fails to make a strong argument, as what he has to say has nothing to do with anthropology but rather biology in attempting to show relatedness.

I essentially agree with your point that ethnicity is essentially an outgrowth of culture, and so has little backing in genetics. However, your following statement, that is why difference between Tangusic language [sic] and Korean is significant, comes across as a confusing non-sequitur, not least because the Tungusic languages page itself notes that some scholars look at Korean as possibly part of that group. That inconsistency aside, you have not established what difference it would make if Korean were related to the Tungusic languages or not, rendering this whole point moot.

On the whole, your post here comes across as strident, insulting, illogical, and poorly organized. Note that I am not trying to insult you -- I am trying to describe for you how you are coming across. Posts that come across as ill-informed emotionality do not fit well within the Wikipedia atmosphere of rational discussion. If you would like to make your point and be taken seriously, in future, please try to post from a calmer mindset, and please read up on the background information before trying to argue about something. Thank you, Eiríkr Útlendi 18:06, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

FWBOarticle: Kindly avoid childish, emotional rants that provide no supporting evidence, but your own opinionated stance. It just makes you look irrational and does not advance the development of this article.

And LOL about the Three Kingdoms of Korea not being "Korean". Do you even think about what you post as you type? They are the Three Kingdoms of Korea. Unequivocally accepted as part of Korean history. It's like saying Yamato is not "Japanese".

Eiríkr Útlendi: Yes, I think we need to revamp this article and make sure to label nationalist ideology as is and differentiate it from the scientific, archaeological, and cultural-linguistic evidence that has presented itself.--Sir Edgar 00:41, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Origin of Yayoi Culture

The article hugely misrepresents the current state of knowledge in regard to Yayoi. It is creating controversy out of nothing and it glosses over a number of well established consensi of the current scholars. For one, the Jomon and Yayoi people are now regarded as fairly distinct and immigration from the Korean penninsula is a well established fact. Secondly, linguistic differences between Korean and Japanese, especially the Japanese pronounciation system which is identical to Malay, Indonesia and other Polynesian languages, indicate that Yayoi and hence modern Japanese are likely to be a hybrid of Jomon, which came from the south, and the language of immigrants from the Korean penninsula. Moreover, it is also well established that Goguryeo and Baekje are both Tungusic, while Silla and modern Korean are not. And it is Goguryeo and Baekje that are the major soruce of immigration to Japan. Moreover, the civilisation which these immigrants brought in originated from the mainland continent and was transmitted via the Korean penninsula. So there are hardly any controversies in this issue, unless one wants to play silly Korean/Japanese identity politics. FWBOarticle

Hello FWBOarticle --

While I understand your points and they jive with what I've read, sources are always a good thing.  :)

You note the Jomon and Yayoi people are now regarded as fairly distinct: regarded by whom? Making a solid case is a good way to get your point across, and avoid quibbling.

The bit about Japanese pronunciation strikes me as slightly irrelevant. There's circumstantial evidence that the lack of any final consonants other than ん /ŋ/ is a more recent development, and that other final consonants might have been more common. Simply the fact that many verb roots seem to end in a final consonant is rather suggestive, such as いく iku "to go" -> the real root here is ik, not iku. Likewise, I could point out that Japanese pronunciation (and Polynesian too for that matter) is pretty darn close to Spanish, but that doesn't signify much.

I hear what you're saying about hybridization. Given what I've read about genetic studies, it sounds like there actually wasn't that much intermarriage, with the Jomon people being marginalized, and Jomon genes matching those of the Ainu much more than those of modern Japanese folks. Have a look at the link provided by Sir Edgar: http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news146.htm, and some of what Appleby has had to say in posts above.

It's clear there was linguistic and cultural contact, and possible linguistic hybridization, given the number of words in modern Japanese that match or are pretty darn close to words in Ainu, Māori and Hawaiian, and Korean, for instance.

Sample cognates

Japanese	Ainu	Māori, Hawaiian	Korean
rakko otter	rakko otter
kane gold	kane gold
uta song	yukar song, epic
ika squid Note that modern sakana "fish" is a compound word, from sake "alcohol" + na "snack"		(M) ika fish (H) i'a fish
hime princess hina doll		(M) hine girl (H) kamahine girl kama child + hine girl/female
kaku to write, to scratch		(H) kākau to write, to tattoo
mura village			maeul village
mure a group, a flock			muri a group, a flock
donguri acorn			dotori acorn

Given that Japanese grammar is wildly different from Māori and Hawaiian (both VSO languages without postpositional articles), rather different from Ainu (given that language's synthetic processes), and quite similar to Korean, it would appear that the underlying structure of modern Japanese came from similar roots to modern Korean. Note that I'm not saying that one came from the other -- rather that they share a common ancestry.

However, the bit about Goguryeo and company being Tungusic while Silla was not is news to me. Where do you find this? The Goguryeo language page itself notes that Goguryeo was "similar to the language of Silla". It also notes that it was "influenced by the Tungusic languages", but this does not mean to me that Goguryeo was a Tungusic language. Meanwhile, the Baekje page seems to contain contradictions, as it says "the indigenous Samhan people, having migrated in an earlier wave from the same region, probably spoke a variation or dialect of the same language" -- but then the Samhan page states that the Baekje grew out of one of the three (sam) hans, while Silla came from one of the other hans. Over on the Tungusic languages page, we are left with the very inconclusive following statements:

Tungusic has traditionally been linked with Turkic and Mongolian languages in the Altaic language family. Korean and Japanese are also considered by some to belong to the Altaic family, but this theory is not universally accepted. Some linguists have proposed a closer relationship within Altaic between Tungusic, Korean and possibly Japanese, though this remains speculative.

Your statement about Goguryeo and Baekje being the likeliest candidates for Japanese immigration match what I've read elsewhere, but I'd add that the Baekje were possibly later immigrants (at least later than 400 BCE), as described over at Baekje#Relations_with_Japan, or maybe part of an ongoing stream of immigration.

Please note, FWBOarticle, I'm not trying to play identity politics. This is all so long ago anyway I feel the point is moot regarding modern national identities, but then I've never had much patience for ideological arguments. (Might have to do with growing up in DC...) I am asking for some clarification here, and citations if you have them -- I love reading about ancient history and linguistic roots, so any links or book titles you might have would be welcome. And note that some controversy may well remain for as long as the article does not have the kind watertight, cited argument that can convince people who simply don't know one way or the other. Meanwhile, some controversy will probably remain no matter what is written, given the modern history of Korea and Japan, about which all we can do is consistently -- and dispassionately -- continue to make our arguments. Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi 17:26, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Is there evidence that what the Yayoi people spoke is very similar to modern Japanese? I thought the significance of Baekje's influence is on the Yamato people, and not the Yayoi? Hong Qi Gong 20:12, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

So far as I know, there is scant evidence for anything about the Japanese language prior to the Man'yōshū, Nihonshoki, etc., compiled between the early 600s and around 730.

Otherwise, the apparently close ties between the Baekje and Japanese royalty imply better than just cordial relations, given that something like 20,000 troops were sent from Japan in an attempt to defend the Baekje from the Silla. These ties might have been something recent at the time, or they might have been older, hard to say. Haniwa, bronze armor, and other archaeological finds in Japan that closely match artifacts found in Korea from around the Yayoi period show a definite influx. Whether the Baekje ethnic group made up part of that trend, I don't know.

The Baekje page states that the Baekje upper classes fled to Japan after the fall of their kingdom, some time around 660, firmly in the Yamato period (note that "Yamato people" is a completely different issue). However, there are indications that the Nihonshoki mentions the Baekje back in 249 (I haven't read it myself), suggesting that the Japanese nobility might have been aware of politics in Korea at least as far back as the late Yayoi period, depending on where one defines the dates for the periods.

Take from that what you will.  :) I simply mean to leave open the possibility that some of the Baekje might have immigrated to Japan prior to 660. Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi 23:59, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

There appear to be confusion with Language and Grammer. For analysis of origin of laugnage, grammer is not the most important element. High end words such as academic terms (greek or latin in English) or words describing foreign import (french in English) is the easiest to change. Just because English contain lot of french, latin words doesn't make this Germanic language into a romanic language.

Then come the grammer. This is one hot potatoe in "Altaic" language controversy. Though Mongolian, Turkish, Manchurian, Korean and Japanese all have similar syntax structure which indicate shared "proto" Altaic origin, some argue that these syntax is not actually a structured syntax system but a syntax system which lost much of syntax rule. "Altaic" language is characterised by highly flexible sentence structure where writing can go on and on without full stop. This is because it utilise SOV (subject, object, verb) syntax or more importantly passive OVS syntax (or just OV) with use lot of which/what/when to connect sub sentence. You can see this from how I write. English on the other hand, is considered to have one of most rigid syntax system and is one of the main reason Japanese or Korean find English grammer hard to grasp. If you know Japanese, for example, most Japanese conversation doesn't make sence in itself. Conversation is just exchange of noun, like "(Done) this?" "(Do) this", "(Do you want) this?" or even worse, "(Have you bought) Milk (I asked you to buy this morning)?" This is one reason why Japanese is one of the easiest language to "speak" at elementary level. Subsequently, those oppose to proto-Altaic linguist theory argue that there are not such thing as proto Altaic laugnage(grammer), rather the similarity is a result of high degree of interaction between these normadic groups, which resulted in flexible syntax.

Relating to this Altaic controversy is the importance of pronounciation system and commonly used words (eat, take, rice, etc). In linguistic, this is more important than grammer because pronounciation and common words are more resilenent to change. And Korean and Japanese share very little verb or commonly used nouns not to mention totally different pronounciation system. Therefore, no linguist would put current Japanese and Korean language in the same linguistic group. This also apply to Korean which is derived from Sillian. Sillian/Korean pronounciation and commonly used words is distinctly different from not just Japanese but also Mongolian and Manchurian. Some argue, based on some reference in ancient Chinese text, that Sillian may have been a off shoot of Han, (though pronounciation lost much of tune aspect) through interaction with largely Tungustic tribes. Anyway, as far as Japanese goes, it is somewhat regarded as creole language between malay/polinesian pronoucniation and Tungustic syntax. Controversy is more about contextualisation of Japanese grammer in term of Altaic controversy which is not directly relevant to Yayoi. FWBOarticle

Hello FWBOarticle --

Etiquette-wise, it's generally considered bad form and disruptive to insert a new section heading in the middle of someone else's post. I have therefore removed the Lingustic [sic] heading you added a little bit ago.

Regarding your notes above, I am again confused by the incomplete logic. You start out by saying grammar isn't as important as words, but then you say, just because English contain lot of french, latin words doesn't make this Germanic language into a romanic language, and example which says that words aren't as important as grammar.  ???

In the next paragraph, I understand your point about interaction possibly giving rise to convergent linguistic evolution, but the kind of interaction necessary to achieve the degree of similarity between Korean and Japanese would have to be so intensive as to significantly blur the lines between "convergent" and "co-evolved", i.e. effectively making the two languages interrelated. By way of an example, Korean has been in contact with China for all of recorded history, and while the Korean vocabulary is heavily laced with Chinese loan words, all that time interacting has not made the Korean language at all similar to Chinese on the structural level. Any ancient proto-Japanese and proto-Korean interaction would have to have been much more intensive than the historical Chinese-Korean relations.

This brings us to your third paragraph, where you seem to claim that pronunciation is resistant to change. I am astounded by this claim. Have you any background in linguistics at all? Are you remotely familiar with the history of languages like English, German, Dutch, Irish? English, for instance, went through a major pronunciation shift from the time of Chaucer, wherein English saw substantial changes in vowels and lost many consonant clusters that are retained in German -- take knight, where the "k" and "gh" are silent, and the vowel is a dipthong, versus the German Knecht, where the "k" and "ch" are both pronounced, and the vowel is a monopthong. Let alone all the other research that has gone into how sounds change over time, such as Old Japanese [p] changing to [ɸ] and thence to [h]. Anyone who has travelled through a number of UK cities and / or regions will note that pronunciation varies quite a bit.

I am increasingly underimpressed by the flimsiness of the arguments you are putting forward. While I generally appreciate discussing these issues, I find it more productive to do so with people who are at least somewhat informed about what they write. Please, FWBOarticle, read up on these issues more. You are clearly passionate and interested, which are both good things, and it would no doubt be more beneficial for you to spend that energy making arguments that work. To that end, please read up on the subjects you post about. As it is, your weak arguments are beginning to make you look like a troll, as in someone who is more interested in being disruptive than productive, and this is damaging to the whole Wikipedia community. Thank you, Eiríkr Útlendi 19:41, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

China vs. Chinese mainland

Not that I care too much about this, BUT technically, "China" did exist back then. The word "China" comes from the Sanskrit transliteration of Qin[8] as in the Qin Dynasty or the Qin State. The Qin Dynasty started in 221 BC when it unified China (or what would become China), but the Qin State existed before then. Hong Qi Gong 15:38, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Definition of "China" or "Chinese" is a huge NPOV minefield. Identity politics of three kingdom of Korea is a kid stuff compared to "China/Chinese" controversy. China/Chinese is not ethnic entity, it is political. Plus, even within academic, disagreement exist about whether to treat Han as a single ethnic entity given that it consist of such varied cultural and linguistic groups. FWBOarticle

Well, you can only get so reductionist until you get to a point where it becomes ridiculous. I mean, why is the Korean Peninsula called the "Korean" Peninsula? If it's not OK to say "Korea" here, what makes it OK to say that it is a "Korean" Peninsula? That doesn't make sense at all. Same goes for "Japan" and the "Japanese" Archipelago. What makes the island "Japanese" if we're determined not to say "Japan"? Isn't it really a Jomon Archipelago or a Yayoi Archipelago?

But anyway, I brought this up because of this sentence in the entry: "The most notable fact that lends evidence to this claim is that three major symbols of the Yayoi Culture - the bronze mirror, the sword, and the royal seal stone - are exactly the same symbols used by the Qin Dynasty of Chinese mainland." Technically this is incorrect, as the Qin Dynasty belonged to China, as in Chinese history and culture, and not the geographical location of where mainland China is today. Hong Qi Gong 17:02, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, because NPOV policy of this site dictate that we should be precise with attribution. And here we are talking about Japanese/Korean "ethnicity" as well as Japanese/Korean "geography". Moreover, there were no "china". Manchurian and Mongolian invasion of Hans as well as conquest of Tibet by Mongol happen in much later period. FWBOarticle

Actually, there was a "China". There certainly was no PRC or ROC, but again, the world "China" derived from the Sanskrit transliteration of Qin, and the Qin State existed in the Spring and Autumn Period, which took place between 722 BC and 481 BC. And historians generally agree that what is considered the empire of "China" dates back to the beginning of the Qin dynasty, which was 221 BC. And even before this date, the kingdoms that came before Qin are generally regarded as part of "Chinese" history.

But regardless, even the wiki entry on China says that it refers to the Chinese civilisation, so it is not incorrect to say "Qin Dynasty of China" back in the time period of the Yayoi.

Also, again, you can only be so reductionistic before it becomes ridiculous - to be strict about it, we can't say Japanese or Korean ethnicity/geography, because "Japan" and Korea" are both technically political terms and neither existed back in the time of the Yayoi. Back then, the Korean Peninsula was not a Korean peninsula because Korea did not exist. Likewise, the Japanese Archipelago was not a Japanese archipelago because Japan did not exist either. It makes no sense to me whatsover that it is OK to say "Korean Peninsula" while it is not OK to say "Korea". Hong Qi Gong 20:26, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Ah, european translation is not quite accurate. Firstly, China is translation of 中華 (Central Blossom or Central Flower). In ancient period, this was always been synominous with Han civilisation and the prestige which the "Han" civilisation held in ancient period. However, just like current American, the civilisation was widely open to anyone outside Han ethnic group (such as Korean or Japanese) who are willing to adop or assimilate "Chinese" civilisation. The great blow to this "China" concept happen with conquest by one of "outside" barbarian group, "Mongol" which "China" has been trying to defend (e.g. Great Wall of China). Subsequently, Han "pesants" established Ming dynasty but damage has been done. Then of course, establishment of Manchurian dynasty discredited the idea of 中華/China in the eyes of many Korean or Japanese. As I said, disambiguation of China/中華 and Han goes to the heart of modern Chinese national identity. It certainly not appropriate to impose modern PROC interpretation to ancient period. I'm not advocating one side or another. Just that we can advoid NPOV minefield if we simply use mainland continent of Chinese continent. It is same wit Korean immigrants, immigrants from Korean peninsula. Most accurate, imo is Tungustic immigrants from Korean pennisula. This is mere reference to academic consensus. Whether these tungustic immigrants were Korean or not is identity politics which we should avoid. Manchurian=Chinese is another doddgey identity politics imo. FWBOarticle

Everything that I've read about the origin of the English word "China" says that it is rooted in a transliteration of Qin. Even the wiki entry on China says this. On dictionary.com it says that it was from a Sanskrit transliteration.

I disagree with the origin of "Chinese" as a nationality that includes other ethnicities aside from the Han. Although I am personally not sure about the origin of the term 中華, to the best of my knowledge, it was in the Qing dynasty that the Manchus adopted "Chinese" as a nationality as to legitimise their rule over Han Chinese and the civilisation that was largely built by Han Chinese. Korean distain of the Manchus came not from the fact that the "Chinese" civilisation was taken over by a non-Han ethnic, but because Koreans saw the Manchus as a more barbaric cousin that actually managed to defeat them (the Koreans).

But the history of that is almost completely irrelevant. I disagree that "China" is ambiguous, as it does not equate to the PRC. It would be ambiguous to say that anything in ancient history originated from 中國. Western historians commonly refer to "China" in terms of its civilisation and history. And as I've said, it makes no sense whatsoever that we can say "Korean peninsula" here but we can't say "Korea". There's nothing "Korean" about the "Korean peninsula" if there is no Korea! Same goes for the "Japanese" archipelago and the "Chinese" mainland. If we can't say "Korea", then we can't say "Korean peninsula". Likewise for the "Japanese archipelago" and the "Chinese mainland" Hong Qi Gong 21:16, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Heck, just look at the wiki entry for Korea - "Korea refers to the civilization situated on the Korean peninsula." - that's the first sentence. Should we revise that entry to specify that it only refers to the civilisation starting from the Goryeo period, and that it is or should be called something else prior to the Goryeo period? Like I keep saying, you can only be so reductionist until it becomes ridiculous. Hong Qi Gong 21:24, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

O.K. let just establish fact first.. China=Qin is a (generally accepted) speculation. Here is how (it is speculated that) Qin changed to China. In India, it is then used to refere to "land of Qin" that is "Thin Chin" in Sanskrit, which is loosely pronounced as "Sheeena Starna". I'm not expert in Sanskrit so excuse my loose translation. When Buddhist Sanskrit scriptures is then brought to Han dynasty, Chinese monks then used 支那 (Sheena, Shina in Japanese) to describe this pronounciation. In Greek and Latin, this become "Sinae" which in English become "China". The important thing is that in it's original formulation in Sanskrit as well as translation into Greek, Japanese or even in Chinese, it did not refer to Tibet, Manchuria and Mongol. Only after Qing dynasty, the distinction become blared. But Manchuria become part of China only because it conqured China. In itself, it was not part of China. I just prefer that we use Chinese continent or mainland continent because it avoid the entire issue of NPOV disambiguation. Oh, anyway, civilisation brought to Japan through penninsula is Chinese/Han origin so it is fine either way. FWBOarticle

That's fine. And historians, even the Chinese ones, know that "Chinese history" didn't include Tibet, Manchuria, and Mongolia until they came under Chinese rule. But anyway, I don't want to deter this into a discussion about Chinese history or what is considered Chinese history. That's besides the point I'm trying to make. What I've been trying to say is that it's absurd that we can say "Chinese mainland" but not "China", "Korean peninsula" but not "Korea", "Japanese archipelago" but not "Japan". It just doesn't make any sense to me and it's overly reductionist. There's no such thing as a "Chinese" mainland without there being a China. I mean, we're going to assume that the reader is too stupid to know that "Korea" wasn't always in the same ethno-political state in the past, but we think they're smart enough to know that "Korean peninsula" doesn't mean that it's a peninsula ruled and inhabitted by the Koreans of today? Hong Qi Gong 03:54, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Well how do you call Manchurian. Are they a ethnic minority of Chinese or they are not Chinese? Let remember that many Korean do not take position that "Korea" wasn't always in the same ethno-political state in the past. Many do take position that all three kingdom are Korean not just as geographical sence but also as ethnicity. In return, this bolster their view that Korean are senior race to Japanese. Inferiority/superiority complext between Japanese and Korean is quite funny to watch if you know it is a silly ass argument. Still, it does help to stick to NPOV so we can avoid much of flaming. As of Chinese in this article, civilisation/technology imported to Japan is Han/Chinese origin so it is o.k. either way. Just that Manchurian<=>Chinese is currently part of Korean/Chinese political propaganda war in regard to North Korea so I believe we should be careful not to encorse either view.

OK, if we are to assume that the reader is going to be too stupid to know that "Korea" was different back then, then we cannot use the term "Korean peninsula". Look, I understand the concern. I'm saying that if we can't say "Korea", then we also can't say "Korean peninsula". If we keep using "Korean peninsula", then we have to assume that the reader is smart enough to know that the peninsula wasn't "Korean" as we know it today - and this also lets us use "Korea". I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but you can't say that we shouldn't use "Korea" but that "Korean" peninsula is OK. You're using the same word! If "Korea" is not NPOV, then "Korean peninsula" is not NPOV either! I mean, it's fine, you don't want to hurt the feelings of the Japanese people. So stop using "Korean peninsula", too, because that peninsula was not "Korean", since the state(s) on the peninsula at the time was not "Korea". Hong Qi Gong 05:55, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Ah, it is more about giving proper clarification or contextualisation of the word Korea or Korean penninsula. If we state that "Whether those immigrants from Korean penninsula is "Korean" in modern sence is disputed" then the problem is solved. We know the geographical extent of Korean penninsula. We also have the vague idea of the geographical extent of the expression "mainland" in the context of East Asian geopolitics. On the other hand, the extent of the expression of "China" is highly debatable. For one, does it include Manchuria, Tibet and part of Mongolia? I'm merely pointing out that Korean penninsula or Japanese archapangelo is fairly clear cut reference even used in the ancient history while China or Chinese mainland is not so clear in therm of geography. Anyway, all we have to do is add clarification to maintain NPOV. FWBOarticle

Huh? Why would people wonder what "China" means in ancient times but not wonder what "Chinese mainland" means in ancient times? Does "Chinese mainland" include Manchuria?

No offense, your explanation still doesn't make sense. If we know the geographical extend of the Korean peninsula, we also know the geographical extend of Korea, because "Korean peninsula" basically means the geographical location that "Korea" occupies today. And if "Korea" and "Japan" are not clear cut references, then how are "Korean peninsula" and "Japanese archipalego" clear cut references? I know you are trying to explain that one is a reference to a geographical location, but the other could be taken as a reference to the state - but the original purpose of saying "Korean peninsula" was to get away from the implication that the Yayoi people came from "Koreans".

Again, we are making both of these assumptions:

• Readers are smart enough to know that people who lived in the "Korean" peninsula in ancient times are not really "Koreans" as we know them today.
• Readers are too stupid to know that people who lived in "Korea" in ancient times are not really "Koreans".

This makes no sense whatsoever. And the thing is, many, if not most, historians simply just use "China", "Korea", and "Japan". Even the sources that this article links to do this. Hong Qi Gong 16:22, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Then when did "Japan" begin to exist?

I'd like to hear the viewpoint of both the Japanese and non-Japanese Wikipedians on when exactly Japan began its existence in comparison to "Korea" and "China". When can you say these nations were formed? Give me dates.--Sir Edgar 00:31, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

More accurate question is to ask when the collection of islands become "Japanese" Archipelago. The answer is very recently. It only after Meiji Restoration, Japan offiially annexed Hokkaido. Second dodgey question is when people living in Archipelago become "Japanese". Yamato dynasty is probably the oldest dynasty in the world but process of conquest and assimilation took long time. Certainly during Yamato, Asuka, Heijyou or Heian period, Yamato people is only one of ethinic group in Japanese archipelago. Hayato of the South certainly wasn't Yamato but they were conqured during Asuka/ Heijyou period and quickly assimilated while Ezo of North (believe to be Ainu) was pushed out to Hokkaido. I believe Touhoku (northern part of Honshu island) came under Japanese feudal system around Muromachi. And let not forget about Okinawa. FWBOarticle

Oh as of Japan, it originate from "Nippon" (Sun Base) whose Chinese characters was pronounced as Jippan in South East Asia which became Japan. Anyway, Japanese ethnicity and political entity can trace it's origin to Yamato dynasty while it's geographical identity only goes back to bit more than a century if you include Hokkaido and Ryukyu as part of Japanese Archipelago. FWBOarticle

This might be stirring a hornet's nest here, but I'm confused -- so when can we call the archipelago now called Japan, Japan? If we're talking about the islands three or four thousand years ago, should we not call them the "Japanese" islands? And if not, then what the heck do we call them? This is truly looking like argumentum ad absurdum. Confused, Eiríkr Útlendi 02:35, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

American continent wasn't called "America" in ancient period. It doesn't matter as long as it is a geographical reference. It just become POV when it is used to imply ethnicity or national identity. That is why "Korean" isn't really kosher to describing immigrants from Korean penninsula. It's like calling Native American just American, which isn't quite right. Japanese archipelago is O.K but I don't think describing Ezo or Hayato as Japanese is right. Jomon doesn't appear to be ethinically Mongoloid. But good argument can be made for Jomon being one of minority ethnic stock which can explain why Korean and Japanese are so similar on one aspect while different in other. For one, Japanese syntax is almost identical to Korean and Tungustic or Altaic language while the pronounciation system is Malay and Polenesian. FWBOarticle

Hi FWBOarticle --

I'm afraid you still haven't answered my question. Sure, the term "America" is relatively recent, but we still call the region "North America" even if we're talking about millions of years ago. You say it doesn't matter as long as it is a geographical reference. "North America", in such contexts, is a geographical reference. Just as "Korea" or "Japan" are, in these contexts, geographical references. This is why I'm confused. I can partially see your logic about not calling any immigrants "Korean", but what's wrong with saying "immigrants from Korea", for example? I'm afraid your reply doesn't quite answer this, and the linguistic comment is again a non-sequitur, as is your confusing statement that Korean and Japanese are so similar on one aspect while different in other -- neither of these comments have anything to do with the initial question, regarding how to describe the places we talk about in these various articles.

Still confused / unconvinced, Eiríkr Útlendi 17:13, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

As an aside, FWBOarticle, please note that the use of these terms "Korea", "Japan", and "China" is meant to conform to academic usage in an English-speaking context. I am beginning to wonder if some of your worry might not be due to a slight linguistic misunderstanding? I'm not trying to slag your language skills, mind you, I'm suggesting that you review how these terms are used in English-language academic writing to recalibrate your sense of context. Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi 17:20, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

"The United States" is the name of the country. "North America" is used mostly for geographical reference and not the country. --Saintjust 15:22, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes. And "Korea" is used for both the country and the geographical area, depending on the context, much as you state "North America" is used mostly for geographical reference -- depending on the context. If we establish a context here wherein the terms "Korea", "China", "Japan", etc. are explicitly described as defining geographic areas (unless otherwise noted), a context that is consistent with other academic English-language writing, then I believe our issue here of confusing the terms for the modern-day political entities would be solved. See below regarding my proposal of adding an introductory paragraph / sidebar / something else to do this. Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi 16:07, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

"North America" is used mostly for geographical reference whereas "Korea" and "Japan" are used equally for both geographical and national reference and so the analogy is invalid. --Saintjust 17:56, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and this is exactly why I suggest explicitly denoting a specific context wherein these various problematic words may be described as meaning specific things, and *not* meaning the touchy subjects that seem to trip people up. Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi 19:44, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

dozens, if not hundreds, of other articles in wikipedia already use "korea" and "japan" as such in this time context, because that is standard usage in encyclopedias and general reference works. if this is a serious discussion, it should take place in the respective naming conventions pages, and all references to korea/japan before around 700 should be made consistent, instead of this tempest in a teapot. not to mention an overhaul of naming conventions of countless other historic civilizations. or, we can just be consistent with existing wikipedia and other general reference works. Appleby 17:35, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

That would be my ultimate preference as well, as consistency across a major work like Wikipedia is important in maintaining a common tone, and also in maintaining a sense of reliability. Each language has its own conventions for nomenclature, but here it is important to note that the English-language Wikipedia should conform to academic English-language usage. And here, as Appleby notes, "Korea", "Japan", and "China" are all used to refer to those respective geographic areas when talking about times past, with no need for qualifiers such as "peninsula", "archipelago", or "mainland", unless contrasting with other elements of that same area (i.e. "Chinese islands" vs "Chinese mainland", etc.). I've done some digging of my own and found that to be the case. Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi 18:12, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

So how many of us here would rather revert back to "Korea", "Japan", and "China"? I would. Either that or use these terms whenever we refer to those locations:

• The geographical location occupied by modern-day Japan.
• The geographical locations occupied by modern-day North and South Koreas.
• The geographical location occupied by modern-day People's Republic of China.

Hong Qi Gong 18:15, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

i agree with that general idea, but the determinants are not modern-day boundaries, but wikipedia policy of using common names and relying on references, as well as consistency within wikipedia. as with anything else, reputable reference works should be consulted on whether to call something "korean" "japanese" or "chinese." Appleby 18:30, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

My suggestion was sarcastic... Hong Qi Gong 18:35, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

My Engrish has nothing to do with it because it is just about simple nouns. Still it is patently obviousl that most Western academic loosely use Korea or Korean penninsula because they are not concerned with Japanese/Korean identity politics. It is incorrect to imply that appearance of the term "Korea" in these paper is endorsement of POV that "Korea" is superior term than "Korean penninsula". As far as I know, no academic paper exist which support such view. Now, let me kill the debate. Korean/Korea can refer to etnicity, race, nation and/or geography. Korean penninsula make it clear that it is geographical reference and therefore better NPOV. You can complain about this argument being a ridiculous technicality. It is still correct technical (NPOV) argument. I don't insist on calling it Chosen Peninsula. FWBOarticle

Actually, "Korean peninsula" is incorrect and is not NPOV.

1. It is incorrect because the boundaries occupied by present day Korea is not the same as the boundaries for the relevant ancient states on the peninsula.
2. It is not NPOV because it implies the peninsula, back in the time of the Yayoi, was inhabitted by and ruled by "Koreans".

Hong Qi Gong 03:44, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't work. Use of the term "penninsula" is reference to geography. In this context, adjective "Korean" only disambiguate this particular peninsula from other penninsulas such as Italian penninsula. That is "Korean peninsula" is attributed as a subcategory of penninsula. On the other hand, Korea could be subcategory of state(s), nation, geographcal region. Failure to provide this subcategory make it inferior attribution compared to "Korean penninsula". Therefore, Korea "is incorrect because the boundaries occupied by present day Korea is not the same as the boundaries for the relevant ancient states on the peninsula." Your argument is upside down. FWBOarticle

Um... NO. The ambiguity is not in the "peninsula" part of the "Korean peninsula". The ambiguity is in the adjective "Korean" in the "Korean peninsula". The "Korean" adjective in "Korean peninsula" only helps to distinguish geographical locations by present-day geo-political boundaries, not geographical locations of the ancient states and peoples of the Yayoi period. The bottom line is that there is nothing "Korean" about the "Korean peninsula" if we can't make references to "Korea" in the first place. Hong Qi Gong 06:25, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Let me reiterate a proposal that might work for both sides here. Something I tried to describe above when talking with Appleby and later with Sir Edgar is that perhaps we should put an introductory paragraph or sidebar on this (and possibly on related pages too) simply explaining some of the nomenclature. I.e., explain that For purposes of this article, the term "Korea" is used to mean the blah-blah area; the term "Japan" is used to mean the Japanese archipelago, etc. etc., and explicitly point out that we're *not* talking about the modern ethnic groups. We do that at the start of the article, and then use the shorter terms throughout. What say you all? Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi 04:41, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

It's pointless. If we define Korea as Korean penninsula, why do we need disclaimer in the begining. Plus setting particular defintion/view of the term is a direct violation of NPOV. Korea could refer to geographical region or nation or state(s). Leave it at that. As I stated, Korean penninsula is superior to Korea in term of NPOV which is supposed to be "absolute and non-negotiable". FWBOarticle

Why do you say this "pointless"? I don't understand your statement.

If we decide we're going to use the term "Korea" to mean roughly "the Korean peninsula", it might be useful to the casual reader to have this pointed out, in order to avoid confusion. And it might be useful to us as the writers to use the shorter term, 1) because it means less typing, and 2) because it more closely matches the terminology in use in the rest of the English-speaking academic corpus.

Defining your terms is not POV. I'm quite confused as to why you think that. I'm beginning to think you're just being a contrarian troll. Please try to make more logical statements to convince me otherwise. -- Eiríkr Útlendi 06:37, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Because when we want to write something like "it is a point of dispute between Korea(Korean) and Japan(Japanese)", we have to rewrite it as "it is a point of dispute between Korean as in not geography but Korean people living in modern Korean state and Japanese people living in modern Japanese state, which is officially known as Nippon." This would be one way to write an Uncyclopedia article about Japan and Korea. Not here. Defining the meaning of a term is not NPOV when you expalin the term in detail "as it is", not "as you want it to be". FWBOarticle

Okay, FWBOarticle, I implore you -- please read more English academic material. Your rewrite example here is a good indication that your unfamiliarity with English-language academic writing is handicapping your ability to understand this debate. Specifically, we would not need to use any such convoluted language to make the distinction between the abbreviated "Korea" and "Japan" introduced in any header, and the modern countries. To use your very example text, a much more concise and easily understood rendering would be, X is presently a point of dispute between people in modern Korea and Japan. Note the complete lack of excessively voluble and pedantic explanatory text -- the simple addition of the words "presently" and "modern" shifts the context from the ancient world to the present day.

Note too that the kind of introduction I am proposing is not to expalin [sic] the term in detail "as it is", not "as you want it to be" -- I am proposing a simple couple of sentences stating something like, In this text, the term "Korea" is used to mean the XYZ area unless otherwise noted.... Note that I say the term "Korea" is used to mean, and *not* "Korea" is XYZ, and thus this would introduce no POV. Such introductory explanations are common to many kinds of writing. Again, this inserts no POV, and is merely for purposes of avoiding misunderstaning on the one hand, and for linguistic convenience on the other. I hope this adequately explains my position for you. Thank you, Eiríkr Útlendi 16:22, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Korean penninsula is simply a more accurate term to use when you refer to the geographical area. It's also a good NPOV term to avoid political debate. --Saintjust 15:16, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. And when the rest of the English-language academic corpus tends to use the shorter terms, would it not make sense to use that style here, and explicitly inform the reader as to how the terms are being used? Also, as Hong Qi Gong points out above, the area defined as "Korea" in ancient terms is much more than just the peninsula, as the Goguryeo kingdom included large chunks of what later became Manchuria.

Meanwhile, no one seems to be directly dealing with my proposal here, either to support or oppose. I'm serious -- what do you all think specifically about an introductory section explaining how the terms are being used? Contracts do it all the time, and contracts are NPOV by design -- "This Contract sets forth the provisions by which XYZ Moo-Cow Industries of Sunnyvale, Inc. (hereinafter, "the Company") ..." Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi 16:07, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

fwboarticle said: "most Western academic loosely use Korea or Korean penninsula because they are not concerned with Japanese/Korean identity politics."

bingo! we should try to join that club. eirikr, i don't think that's really necessary, as no other western academic/reference works do that. if "korea" and "korean" are good enough for widespread usage academic journals, reputable media, encyclopedias, etc., then it's good enough for wikipedia, by definition and design. Appleby 16:57, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

The bottom line, at least in my opinion, is that we should assume the readers are smart enough to know that "Korea" and "Japan" are 1) not always what they are today, and 2) can be used as geographical references. And if we can't make that assumption, we also can't make the assumption that they know what we mean when we say "Korean" peninsula or "Japanese" archipalego. Again, it makes no sense whatsoever that "Korean" peninsula is OK, but "Korea" is not. Hong Qi Gong 17:29, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

There is no reason to settle with a "good enough" term that are causing all sorts of real troubles on Wikipedia (if not in academia) when you could use a much better and more accurate term that avoids those troubles. --Saintjust 17:56, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

it is not causing all sorts of real troubles in other encyclopedias or in academic journals. they already considered what's appropriate terminology, and are better judges than us. once we accept what wikipedia is, there will be no more troubles here either. Appleby 18:13, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is here, precisely because of the existence of the likes of you on Wikipedia. Using more accurate expressions doesn't hurt. --Saintjust 18:40, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, believe it or not, I am a university graduate (and I don't mean Japanese uni). Secondly, You respond, if not agree, to my argument because my Engrish make sence. So stop resorting to personal attack. I don't like to talk about my profile here. Thirdly, these academic are not writing in wikipedia but we are. Their research is relevant. Theire use of Korea/KoreanPenninsula is not unless wikipedian policy become norm in academia. Find argument based on the policy of this site. Any other argument is just a weasle ploy to divate this article from wikipedian norm. FWBOarticle

Saintjust, please be polite and do not make ad hominem attacks.

Again, I am brought back to my proposal from earlier -- since terminology has clearly become an issue on various pages here on Wikipedia, why don't we use an introductory section to explicitly denote how the problematic terms are being used? I hear your point, Appleby, but it seems that the open nature of Wikipedia editing virtually guarantees that a certain percentage of the editors of any given page (and possibly a higher percentage for controversial pages) will not be familiar with academic usage (c.f. this very page). We have a gap here between "should" and "reality".  :-| Given the likelihood of non-academic readers and editors finding themselves incensed by a term, and unaware that their ire is due to a misunderstanding of context and how the term is used, we face a similar likelihood of revert wars and needless kerfuffle. I suggest again that we add some kind of introduction, precisely to try to avoid these frustrating rounadabouts. Thank you, Eiríkr Útlendi 19:55, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Sure, mention the controversy Korea and Korean Penninsula cause. Just make sure that you don't do something like "Korea used here only refers to region". The word, as it is, doesn't refer to geography only, and still require Korean penninsula as NPOV disambugiation. FWBOarticle

FWBOarticle, I don't understand why you oppose explictly stated use of the word "Korea" (for instance) to refer to just a geographical area within the specific context of an article or section. That's the whole point of the introductory section I propose -- to explain how the terms are used, after which the terms would be used consistently in that fashion. You say Just make sure that you don't do something like "Korea used here only refers to region". Why not? You continue, The word, as it is, doesn't refer to geography only -- but if we explain in the introduction that we are using it in a specific way in a specific context, then it's not just "the word as it is", but rather "the word as we've explained we're using it".  ??? Eiríkr Útlendi 00:21, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Why don't we take a vote? Hong Qi Gong 19:57, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Eiríkr's proposal (although I still believe Korean penninsula is more accurate). All I want to aviod is giving the wrong impression against unfamiliar readers that "modern ethnic Koreans moved into the Japanese Islands". I believe proof such as "modern Japanese and Korean(languages) are considered too different to have split from a common ancestor only 2000 years ago(M.Hudson, Ruins of Identity, Univ. of Hawaii Press, Honolulu, 1999)" must be clearly stated. Nobu Sho 20:07, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Like I keep saying though, if you think the reader is stupid enough to get the wrong impression from "Korea", then he'll get the wrong impression from the "Korean" peninsula. It implies that "modern ethnic Koreans" lived on and ruled the peninsula. It just makes no sense that "the Korean peninsula" is OK while "Korea" is not. You're referring to the same thing. The same ambiguity in the word "Korea" exists in the adjective "Korean" in "the Korean peninsula".

Aside from that, saying that it's the "Korean" peninsula is inaccurate anyway, because modern-day Korea doesn't have the same geo-political boundaries on the peninsula as the ancient states that we are referring to. Hong Qi Gong 20:43, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

This is again precisely why I'm suggesting an explicit introductory section. Readers are already getting the wrong impression, or we wouldn't be having this conversation to begin with. So rather than rely on readers to correctly guess our intentions, I suggest an introduction to explain exactly what we mean by the terms we use. Historical differences can be accounted for this way too -- for example, if we wanted to say "Korea" means the area covered by the ancient Goguryeo, Baekje, Silla, and Gaya areas, we could say that at the beginning. Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi 21:28, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

This is totally my own opinion of course, but I think we're having this discussion not because people are getting the wrong impression. I think we're having this discussion because some people want to tiptoe around terminologies so as to not hurt the feelings of Japanese nationalists. Hong Qi Gong 22:57, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I can understand that concern. My worry is that, since Wikipedia is open for anyone to edit, we might well face revert war after revert war as various people come by, find something they disagree with in the terms used (perhaps mistakenly), and make changes without ever looking at the Talk page to see what's been discussed. I've watched the Yayoi page here flip-flop for weeks, and it's tedious. Both sides have their points -- one says use only the shorter terms "Korea", "Japan", "China", etc. already in use in other academic writing, and the other says be more specific and use terms like "Korean peninsula" and "Japanese islands". I really don't care much one way or the other, frankly, so long as the usage is clear and consistent. As it is now, we have people who edit it one way or the other, but sometimes only in part, and perhaps ungrammatically (c.f. my request regarding "the" above), making the page inconsistent and poorly written.

Since both sides are sticking to their views, I'm trying to suggest some sort of middle road that would make everyone happy, quelling the current revert fracas, and make it clear to the casual browser what we mean, and thus avoid sparking any future revert conflict. Does this make sense? Eiríkr Útlendi 23:15, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Vote? It is explicitly stated that this site is not a democracy. Argumentum ad populum argument doesn't work here. My case is still that Korean penninsula is superior NPOV than Korea (which may or may not be a geographical reference). Pluease come up with an argument based on wikipedia policies. FWBOarticle

And don't do something like introducing conflicting POVs inside the talk page into the front page. That specifically violate no original research criteria. FWBOarticle

OK. No vote then. Are you going to do a revert if someone goes in and changes the text to "Korea", "Japan", and "China"? I don't think I have to come up with an argument based on wiki policies, because I still think that changing it to "Korean peninsula" in the first place adds absolutely no value and doesn't make any sense at all. Again, you can't have a "Korean" peninsula without a "Korea". Hong Qi Gong 05:18, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, I'm not sure I should laugh or sigh. Using edit war as a threat is silly. There is such thing as an arbitration process and I don't need to engage in poitless edit war. "I don't think I have to come up with an argument based on wiki policies" pretty much killed your credibility. I will edit this article once chaging Korea to Korean penninsula. Given your statement, any revert wouldn't look good on you but that is your choise. This is pathetic. FWBOarticle

What are you talking about? If I was going to engage in an edit war, I would have been editing the article already. But I haven't touched your "Korean peninsula" at all. I was asking if you would revert because it would have been pointless for me to edit if you were going to revert anyway. In other words, I was trying to avoid an edit war by asking if you would revert.

Saying I don't have to come up with an argument based on wiki policy does not kill my credibility because the article originally read "Korea" instead of "Korean peninsula". It is you who have failed to come up with a justifiable reason to change it to "Korean peninsula" in the first place so I would like to change it back to what it was. Your "geography vs. state" argument doesn't make sense because like I've said before, the "Korean peninsula" holds the geo-political boundaries of present-day Korea, but the ancient states that we are talking about do not hold those same geo-political state. If you are to assume that the reader is too stupid to know what we mean by "Korea", then you would also have to assume that s/he is too stupid to know what we mean by the "Korean" peninsula. So I'm saying for what seems to be the 100th time - you can't have a "Korean" peninsula without a "Korea". Basically your justification for changing it in the first place makes no sense, and I, for one, just want to change it back - that is why my argument doesn't have to be backed by policy, because I want to revert a change that you did, which was unjustifiable. However, all you have to do is tell me that you'd revert if I go in and change "Korean peninsula" to "Korea", and I'll leave it alone. But if you say you won't revert, then I'm going to go ahead and change it. Hong Qi Gong 06:40, 4 March 2006 (UTC)