User talk:Lysy

Barnstar!

While you are asleep on your Wikibreak I, Renata, award you this Original Barnstar to let you know that your hard work and pictures on Lithuania-related topics are very much appreciated. Renata 07:29, 29 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No of course I don't. I welcome anybody's constructive edits (even the minor or silly ones). The more the better! Renata 17:49, 5 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ponowna próba

Wymazania informacji o zbrodniach popełnionych przez żółnierzy niemieckich podczas Kampanii Wrześniowej, tym razem w artykule: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_17th_Infantry_Division --Molobo 22:22, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Klaipėda Revolt

Of course I don't mind you taggingand editing the article. DeirYassin 18:35, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Poloniation & Russophobia.

I have already explained in the edit comment to Russophobia: Polonization is immediately relevant to the sentence where it is mentioned. If you cannot read carefully, I cannot help you, sorry. mikka (t) 07:48, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Vitovt

Ok, Volosatik. You do not like when Vitovt is called by his original name. Fine, we can leave Vytautas before we discuss it. But why the hell you delete everything esle? Maybe you left some explanation?

Polish-Lithuanian War

Thank you in concurring with me that the "war" took place, instead of "raged". Since I was wrong about my other edits and need sources, can you give me your sources for removing "raged". After all it was in the article to begin with. And by the way, do you happen to know the sources for the information in the article. Have the sources, as they stand now, come from all sides of the conflict? Thank you in advance, and counting on your impartiality. Dr. Dan 02:28, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BSNB

Hello, and I think you will be interested in this new initiative to gather together people interested in the three Baltic States. It is now in the development stages so your input is welcome. Please share your mind and take an active role in this new notice board. Renata 04:07, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Maskhadov

Before questioning something, please take an effort to do a simple google test. The very first result the google gives to "Maskhadov Vilnius tower" string [1] is the article at eng.kavkaz.memo.ru from which I am quoting for you:

Maskhadov commanded a platoon in 1972-78. He next was a battery commander and chief of staff of a battalion in the Far East. In 1981-86 he served in Szeged, Hungary, with the Southern Group of Troops and then from 1986 in the Baltic Military District, first as commander of a self-propelled artillery regiment and from the autumn of 1990 as chief of staff of missile and artillery forces of the Vilnius, Lithuania, garrison and deputy commander of the 7th division. In January 1991 Aslan took part in the "Vilnius events" (the seizure of the television tower by Soviet troops).

Of course he became a "freedom fighter" later. But that's a different story. --Irpen 07:49, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Trollish rant

odpierdal się jebany skurwysynu od porównywania AK do UPA, jebany faszysto !!!!!!!!!!!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.96.248.99 (talk • contribs)

Who's the fellow, I wonder?. --Irpen 21:02, 22 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I always feel flattered by this type of attacks. It confirms that I'm doing the right things. --_Lysy^talk 10:23, 23 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Historic names

Sorry you needed to go on break before you could tell me why you feel the Lithuanian town of Panevėžys, needs to have its Polish name in the English Wikipedia. Especially since there is a Polish article about the town, which links to the English article (it clearly enables the user to know the name in Polish, if that's a necessity). Dr. Dan 23:36, 23 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, because it's the historic name of the town of the Commonwealth. Why does it bother you ? --_Lysy^talk 08:04, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

p.s. I always though the above obscenity, added by the ranting troll, od....dol się, ended in dol, not dal. Did the fool spell it correctly? I could swear that a good friend of mine from Płock, used dol not dal.

I'm having problems staying on my wikibreak. I'll need to try harder. As for the "dol" you are right. I don't know about the US, but children are quite careless in PL nowadays. --_Lysy^talk 08:04, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

UPA

dlaczego Pan z premedytacją sugeruje jakieś domniemane pojednanie AK i UPA, proszę przedstawić jakieś wiarygodne informacje nt., np. Zarządu AK, zdjęcia oficialne wystąpienia wladz AK, to jest niedopuszczlane co Pan robi, i obraźliwe dla kombatantów AK !!!! 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Od kiedy pojednanie jest obraźliwe ? Link do przykladowej informacji podany jest w artykule. Przeformulowalem ten paragraf, zeby nie sugerowal, ze takie pojednania maja obecnie oficjalny charakter. --_Lysy^talk 07:51, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

a czy jest coś więcej poza tym 1 (JEDNYM) artykulem we Wprost ?, bo z treści postu wnoszę, że są jakieś jeszcze inne indywidualne pojednania (proszę o zacytowanie), bo mam wrażenie, że robi Pan sobie hucpę z tego "pojednania" jeśli kiedykolwiek do niego dojdzie! (wszak ludzie odchodzą i niewielu ich pozostaje). Od razu odpowiem że nie interesują mnie żadne prywatne uroczystości na prywatnym terenie. Sugeruje Pan również że są jakieś wnioski dotyczące budowy pomników upowców oraz próby oficialnych wspólnych uroczystości, proszę wskazać mi takie wydarzenia, wnioski, postulaty środowisk kombatanckich. Odnoszę wrażenie że nie jest Pan kombatantem a treść artykulu ma z grubsza inne przeslanie niż tylko "neutralna informacja" i byc może ma charakter osobistej wypowiedzi.

07:51, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Nie jestem kombatantem, sądze, że Pani też nie jest i to raczej w Pani działaniach wyczuwam zabarwienie osobistą nienawiścią i szowinizmem. Proszę sprawdzić historię artykułu, a zobaczy Pani, że paragraf, który mi Pani przypisuje nie jest mojego autorstwa. Jeśli chodzi o więcej przykładów, to nie trzeba daleko szukać, wystarczy użyć google. Gorąco zachęcam Panią do samodzielnych poszukiwań. Podaje przykłady kolejnych artykułów na ten temat Rzeczpospolita, Aspekt Polski. --_Lysy^talk 08:29, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

przecież ten artykul nie dotyczy w zaden sposób tego o czym wy piszecie, ja również zachęcam do szukanie w googlach linków, napewno znajdziecie tam kontakt do Zarządu Glownego AK w Warszawie i rzecznika prasowego tego stowarzyszenia, Jeśli tak bardzi zależy panu na pojednaniu z grabażami Polski bardzo proszę utworzyć artykul np. LYSY pojednanie z UPA, zachęcam !

11:29, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your voting!

Hi, thanks for your voting on my RFA. It has finished with the result 88/14/9, and I am promoted. I am really overwhelmed with the amount of support I have got. With some of you we have edited many articles as a team, with some I had bitter arguments in the past, some of you I consider to be living legends of Wikipedia and some nicks I in my ignorance never heard before. I love you all and I am really grateful to you.

If you feel I can help you or Wikipedia as a human, as an editor or with my newly acquired cleaning tools, then just ask and I will be happy to assist. If you will feel that I do not live up to your expectation and renegade on my promises, please contact me. Maybe it was not a malice but just ignorance or a short temper. Thank you very much, once more! abakharev 07:34, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

An article

Hello. As someone who is interested in the history of these areas I thought you might want to check the Rainiai executions (former name: Rainiai massacre) article and as well the discussion in the talk page about the article's naming. DeirYassin 13:56, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ukrainian articles

Regarding this edit summary I hope it is not a sarcastic disaproval of these edits I did just before that.

Now, to UPA, this would be one of the most difficult articles to bring anywhere close to the encyclopedic standards. Polish, Soviet and Ukrainian scholarship on this topic should all be taken with strong skepticism but other than these three, there is almost nothing left to consider. If you could bring in some scrutinized opinions of solid Polish scholars, that could certainly help. And thanks for guarding this and other related articles from the extremists. --Irpen 21:29, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

UPA

Panie LYSY proszę nie porównywać AK do UPA !!!! i nie prowokować agresji na forum , żadne wspólne uroczystości, żadnych pomników stawianych bandytom z UPA w Polsce nie było i nie będzie, proszę nie wypisywać treści które są dla Polaków obraźliwie, nie obchodzi mnie to że w Kanadzie bandyci Z UPA obchodzą swoje uroczystości i organizują marsze, i proszę uważać na to co Pan pisze !, bo inaczej ktoś może panu kark skręcić albo zabije was zwykły ludzki śmiech !!! [..disgusting personal attack removed by Irpen...] 24 luty 2006, 08:50 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.96.248.99 (talk • contribs)

odnośnie tego pana IRPENa, ma racje , niech ktoś zbierze opinie uczniów szkół z woj. podkarpackiego i zbada ich percepcję na wydarzenia z lat 1939-47, i co myślą o ukraińcach: 9 wrzesien 1939 "pogrzeby polski" z udzialem popów, ukraińskiej gawiedzi i wojska niemieckiego, 28 kwietna 1943 powstanie SS Galizien, przemarsze i msze ukrainskich ochodników do SS w Sanoku, Lesku ...., 1946-1947 msze w cerkwiach i święcenia siekier, tasaków na wojne z polskimi sąsiadami ... , — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.96.248.99 (talk • contribs)

Now that the troll is blocked[2], I removed part of his "message". Whoever, pls use English. --Irpen 21:24, 25 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Image

Ahhh, it's so cool you have uploaded it. Thanks, it made my day! But would you mind if I cropped it a little? Renata 20:27, 25 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I was thinking that I might use the pic to say thank you or something similar (you know, instead of a formal barnstar). Polish names for towns are annoying as hell but I grew to ignore them. I realized that they don't really matter much, because it is only one word in the whole article. However, it is one very annoying word. Why? Because it indirectly implies that Lithuania was Polish and that Polish had control over Lithuania and that it still has some claims over it and some other stupid stuff. It's like feeling that there is nothing really Lithuanian under this sun. There was somewhere this discussion when Zivibundas (what's the right spelling?) was still around. So my conclusion is: is it annoying? Oh, yes. Is it important? Only for Poles and Lithuanians. Does it matter? No. Renata 21:13, 25 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I know and I understand. And actually sometimes it is very useful, when say I am looking for some town and I don't know local/English name. However, one thing I don't understand is when inside the articles wikilinks refer to Polish or Russian or whatever names, and not the current one. It's not only Vilnius/Vilna/Wilno/etc. but also other smaller towns. The most recent example I remeber, was Kalvarija was named in Polish in some article about history of 1939-1945. That I don't understand other than outbreak of nationalism. Renata 22:04, 25 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Let me correct myself, or the editor did not know the Lithuanian name. But I have seen quite a few edits were a user would remove Lithuanian name and put in Polish. Sometimes in piped links. Renata 22:05, 25 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The result of Panevezys debate: 3700 words were written over 1 word.... Renata 17:31, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good summary. --_Lysy^talk 16:26, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

?

Did I misunderstand that there was an agreement, that Lithuanian cities that had not been part of Poland 1918-1939, would not have a Polish name placed in the lead (especially ones with links to their respective language articles), or was this only with Balcer and not with Lysy. And that if there was an event or historical connection to Germany, Poland, or Russia, etc., it would be placed in the article, if appropriate. What requires Taurage to have it's Polish name included in the lead? Dr. Dan 16:06, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, Lysy believes that it's usfeul to have alternative names mentioned for places that shared Polish and Lithuanian history, not only after WW1 but also earlier. Lysy understands that this may be irritating for some who either were taught that these places had only Lithuanian names or those who for whatever reason prefer to present a single-sided view of the history. Lysy believes that this irriatation is a price worth paying for presenting a wider view, for undestanding, and respecting different POVs. Lysy also is against removing useful information for the sole purpose of meeting someone's agenda. Lysy does not think that mentioning the alternative names Polish implies that these places were, are or should be Polish. They are useful for people encountering Polish forms of the names in English language texts and the article's lead is perfect place for this. --Lysy^talk 18:13, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Understood, does Lysy think a city like Lublin should have its Lithuanian name in the lead of the article for the same reasons mentioned by Lysy above? Does Lysy agree that there is a historical connection between Lublin and Lithuania visa vis the Union of Lublin? Is Lysy prepared to add the Lithuanian name, Liublinas to the lead in the article in en-Wiki, in order to present a wider view, for understanding, and respecting different POVs. Dr. Dan 20:21, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I don't mind, but practically, how many English language sources do you know, where "Liublinas" ? Another question: historically, in what period was "Liublinas" name in use in Poland instead or along with "Lublin" ? I think you're missing the point. --Lysy^talk 21:04, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lysy in the Third Person

Lysy, I don't ever want you to think that I don't like you, so I'm asking if you want to be addressed in the third person. Lysy used the third person in his above edit at 18:13 4 March 2006, repeatedly. This is why I'm asking. Besides that, I would like to read more about the revolt against Smetona in Taurage, in 1927. Where can I find it?

I don't think that you don't like me :-) You started addressing me in the third person first, above, I'm not sure why. As for the revolt, I've found it mentioned in Jerzy Ochmański's "Historia Litwy", Ossolineum 1990, page 292. He only mentions that the pro-democratic revolt in Taurage was very soon pacified. He does not say more about what happened to the rebels, does not mention any victims etc. I may try to find more on it for you tomorrow if this is interesting. As to your Lublin example, I really think it's missed. There were areas in Lithuania where ppl spoke Polish but not the other way round. There's nothing wrong or offensive in admitting this. On the other hand, there were areas of Poland where people spoke German and I don't think anyone takes offence that "Posen", "Graudenz" or "Wreschen" etc. are mentioned in the leads of the articles about these towns, even if they belonged to Poland during interbellum (as Taurage belonged to Lithuania). Is this a problem for you ? --Lysy^talk 22:58, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have seen many examples, of Poles being bothered with German names being addded to geographical locations, and upset with the deletion of Polish names from others, in the short time I've participated in Wikipedia. As I've said before, the easiest solution is a case by case basis. I've come to the conclusion that the portions of Lithuania, or Belarusia, or Ukraine that were part of Poland during the II Rzecpospolita, can have an inclusion of its Polish name. I'm not so sure that Polish was as widely spoken in the hinterlands of Lithuania as you might think. Especially amonst the common people. I have spent lots of time in Poland and been to Lithuania too. It amazes me how the very young have lost the ability to communicate in Russian, in a rather short time. As for you adding "Yiddish", in the lead of the Panevezys article, it speaks lots about where you are coming from. I don't think it's possible to communicate very well in Panevezys in Yiddish today. A pity, my Yiddish, is a lot better than my Hebrew. Dr. Dan 14:14, 5 March 2006 (UTC) p.s. the Tsar Alexander's stay in Taurage in 1807, long, short, trivial, or important?[reply]

You're certainly right that Poles are often upset by German names of Polish locations. While I can understand there is a number of different reasons for this (including education, propaganda and historic experiences), I don't think this is something that is good or should be encouraged. Poles should understand, that historically Poland was a multi-national country, and that the notion of "nationality" as we know it today, did not exist in 17th century or earlier. Although the fact that someone spoke German did not make him "anti-Polish". As I understand it, what generally mattered was usually not the language, ethnic origin or religion (although it's easy to find counterexamples) but what we would today call "citizenship". This of course changed with the partitions and later. So, what I'm trying to say is that I consider looking at whole history from the perspective of 19th or 20th century nationalisms is a major mistake and source of misunderstanding. Keep in mind, that when the nationalisms erupted in the end of 19th century, much of the history was rewritten to suit individual agendas and this of course influenced the perception of our parents or grandparents. We can be wiser than that.

As to more specific issues: You doubt that Polish was widely used in Lithuania. Let me ask you a question then: If not Polish, what language was used by the common people ? was it Lithuanian ? No, it was Ruthenian. The upper class however increasingly used Polish. How do you think Taurage was called in the times of Radziwill ? What language did the Radziwills speak ? Polish. It's not that I think that it something to be proud or be ashamed of. The fact is it were the elites that decided on the names of their towns and villages, not the common people (regardless of whether they used Ruthenian or Lithuanian).

Similarly to you, I'm (unpleasantly) surprised by how quick the people lost their ability to communicate in Russian, both in Poland and Lithuania.

To summarise, I believe that there's nothing wrong in admitting that in this part of Europe the collonisation moved eastwards, and that German culture influenced Poland, similarly to Polish culture influencing Lithuania, Ruthenia or Ukraine. It's the common heritage, that people in each of the countries can be proud of instead of trying to denying it. --Lysy^talk 15:50, 5 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Of course it's not possible to communicate in Yiddish or Polish in Panevezys, but these names can be encountered in the articles about the town's history.

As for Alexander's stay in Taurage, I'll investigate it further. If it was not notable, I'd move it to "trivia" section. Otherwise, I'd expand it a little to explain its importance. You could help, too :-) --Lysy^talk 15:55, 5 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lysy, Lysy what's going on here! You included that Alexander I stayed in Taurage, not in the trivia part, but in the main article. Now you'll investigate it further, after my questioning its relevance or significance. You included the Yiddish name for Panevezys in the lead, after some consensus was reached avoiding these types of provocations (someone took it out later, perhaps it was you). Of course it's not possible to communicate in Yiddish or Polish in Panevezys, so are we looking for fairness, or a provocation from you? Getting back to more serious points in our discussion. The common people in Lithuania, spoke Lithuanian, not Ruthenian. I'm speaking now of Lithuania itself, and not its Eastern territories, which were vast. Somehow you and others think that, these common people couldn't express themselves geographically. That until their polonized Radvilai/Radziwillczycy, named a town, it didn't have a name? Or maybe that until the Radziwills told them a name for a bird, it too, didn't have a name? Please take the time to look at the history of the Lithuanian language linguinstically and philologically, before making these sweeping generalizations. Dr. Dan 01:27, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You're overestimating my desire to provoke you :-) As for alternative names in the lead of Panevezys, I maintain my position, that all reasonable names used thoughout history should be mentioned. I only did not insist on keeping the Polish names as I understood Polish irritates you for some reason and I would not like to get involved in a revert war over this as probaly both of us could use the time more productive. I think Balcer solved it gently by moving the Polish name off the lead. As for Yiddish, firstly the town was a centre of Yiddish culture and secondly, the latinised Yiddish name is frequently being used in English language literature of the town. Is this offensive as well as the Polish name ?

For Alexander's stay in Taurage in 1807, I think it's certainly not less notable than the other episodes mentioned in the history of this, otherwise relatively small town. I've expanded the context of his stay there a bit. Again, the article is still a stub and I'd like to encourage you to add some information there, too.

Back to out language discussion: I'm not suggesting that the origin of the name is Polish. I'd rather expect it to be German, or Lithuanian or a mixture, although in Polish it would also make sense ("the horns of a taur"). I'm not trying to speculate into this, though. What I was trying to say, is that Radziwills did not speak Lithuanian, therefore at least for a certain period of history the Polish name was used. I'm not sure when the Lithuanian form was firt mentioned. Since you mentioned "Lithuania itself", which I believe you mean to be "Lithuania proper", do you know when this term was born ? --Lysy^talk 17:14, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Did it ever occur to you that the interaction between Poland and Lithuania brought elements of Lithuanian culture and language to Poland (oprócz chłodnika litewskiego), instead of it being all one sided? Think about it for a moment. And besides providing two of Poland's greatest leaders Władysław II, and Piłsudski, the two nations shared more than divided them, and the perception amongst Lithuanians was and is, that Poles and worse, Polonized Lithuanians, (like the Radziwills), held them as a "lesser" partner. As I told Halibutt recently, these are the reasons that the concept of "Between the Seas", the dream of the Marshall, didn't work out. This, was much, much more the reason than the bolsheviks or hiterism, that prevented this dream from flourishing and comming true. Lysy, do yourself, and your credibility a favor, and avoid adding information like 80% of Taurage was destroyed by the nazis. You should have known its nonsense, and not included it. It implies that once you are caught with "your hand in the cookie jar", you can't be trusted around cookies. All joking aside, I have been receiving contacts (emails), from different parts of the world, e.g., U.K., Belgium, France, as well as some more traditional neighbors of Poland, all concerning the behavior of one particular Polish editor (pointless to name, but you know very well who they mean). I honestly think that he does Poland's struggle for dignity and justice, a great disservice and a group should ask him to "cool it a bit". Even though its a "free Wikipedia", does the attitude and information provided by this editor help Poland or hurt Poland? Just a thought. Dr. Dan 02:26, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you are right about the Lithuanian perception of Poland. I'm very much aware of this as I have quite some Lithuanian friends and we've emptied many bottles over such issues. During my first visit to Lithuania I've been quite surprised to learn this attitude, as I naively assumed that "Poles and Lithuanians are brothers" etc. while then I've found that in Lithuanian perception Poland was almost an enemy. This is hopefully changing now, most if not all Poles that I know have respect for Lithuania and I strongly believe in the potential to build much better mutual relationship. So far most of the prejudices remain on the Lithuanian side in my opinion, and given the history, this is understandable. You're also right about the probably unfortunate fact that Poles held Lithuanians as a lesser partner, even in the interbellum period, but the fact also is that Lithuania was a lesser partner then. Lithuanians IMO were paranoid about Polish domination only to learn soon what a real totalitarian domination meant.

Thanks for the advice about the 80% damage. I usually check at least 2 sources if some information is otherwise unknown to me, this time I did not and it immediately fired back. I'm not saying that 80% of the town was destroyed by the Nazis or not. I simply cannot easily verify this information and it seems doubtful, therefore I should have not put it into the article in the fist place. You're right that this damages credibility unfortunately. As for the fighters that you've mentioned, every "nation" has them. I think it will cool down with time, but then the new ones will come. BTW, do you know that every time my wikipedia home page was vandalised, it was done by Polish nationalists ? --Lysy^talk 11:18, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You might be interested

[3] --Molobo 12:56, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You're a Good Guy

Hey, I like your unbiased approach to topics, and I'm sorry for lumping you in with Molobo, SpaceCadet and Halibutt before. Hopefully we can continue to cooperate on making wikipedia NPOV. --Jadger 18:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Love your idea of CANAPPUS, if you have time, can you look at the following two articles, You probably do not have extensive knowledge on the subject, but even a simple understanding of English shows a glaring POV problem in these articles. The author of the article does not like my revisions of the article. Perhaps a clearer head such as yours can help out the topics.

Canadian Soldier story

Operation Medak Pocket

--Jadger 23:17, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]