Talk:Surrealism/Archive 2

It appears as if someone doesn't like changes being made to this entry. Why? -B

I don't know whether Giacometti belongs with the surrealists: he is much more closely linked with Existentialism - he was very close friends with Jean Paul Sartre - and although he had a deal with Paul Loeb (the Surrealists' principle dealer) and his work became known between 1929 - 1932 as surrealist, the work of this period is much more concerned with eroticism and symbolism than surrealism itself. But this is just my 2 sous worth... sjc

Edited misleading material on Dada.
Added qualification of Andre Breton's definition of surrealism.
Expansion of Dada discussion: negative Dada & positive surrealism.
Added material for further reading
Added "parsemage".* Added external link to the Surrealist Movement in the United States.
Added external link to Paris Surrealist Group.

--Daniel C. Boyer

It was a movement which transformed post-World War I visual art, writing, poetry and film -- this is highly misleading and incomplete! --Daniel C. Boyer

Oops. I've just refactored that into the opening sentence. If it's "often misinterpreted as an artistic movement", then what IS it? (in 10 words or less ;) ). We need a clear opening that gives the context, before we launch into how Breton initiated it -- Tarquin 07:01 Jul 31, 2002 (PDT)

The bald statement that surrealism is not an art movement kind of flies against the common definition of art movement. It wasn't *simply* an art movement, but it certainly wasn't *not* an art movement.

It is, not was, not an art movement. There have been many members who have not been artists, who have not ever done any painting, drawing, collage, etc. (except -- if this -- for participating in exquisite corpse); moreover, there have been participants in the movement who have been neither artists nor poets. The surrealist project is not to change art but to transform the world. (This is proved again and again in primary-source surrealist writings, Breton saying that though the preparations are, roughly speaking, "artistic in nature," the day would come when surrealism would not be in this stage of preparation any more. This has now come to be, to a greater or lesser extent, with the Madrid group currently not doing art any more; the group's contribution to a recent exhibition was burning currency.) I do not believe that this "bald statement... flies against the common definition of art movement" but in any case it is the truth. --Daniel C. Boyer 07:36 Aug 26, 2002 (PDT)

Statements that the Surrealist movement ended in the 1930s is not "false". In fact, it's the generally accepted position

Generally accepted as the position may be, it is based on demonstrably, factually false information. There was absolutely nothing that happened in the 1930s that could be called the "end of the movement." This belief (and people who say surrealism is dead have a notably difficult time agreeing on the date of its demise) is based on nothing more than a desire to collapse "we wish surrealism were dead" into "surrealism is dead." --Daniel C. Boyer

that Surrealism refers to the specific Paris-based collective.

Which continues today. See the link to GPMS. --user:Daniel C. Boyer

The concept of Surrealism being an ongoing movement is the minority position; might be useful to discern "Surrealism" from "surrealism".

There is no distinction other than in the minds of persons determined to falsify what surrealism is. --Daniel C. Boyer 07:36 Aug 26, 2002 (PDT)

--The Cunctator

Read this paragraph:

Although it is often falsely stated that surrealism ended either during or shortly after the Second World War, or with the death of Breton in 1966, the 1960s in fact saw a dramatic expansion of international surrealism, including the founding of the Surrealist Movement in the United States? by Franklin? and Penelope Rosemont?. For instance, in 1986 the Surrealist Group in Stockholm? was founded.

Explain to me why it is false and why the "generally-accepted position" can dispute these facts. --Daniel C. Boyer 07:49 Aug 26, 2002 (PDT)

You have totally failed to respond to my challenge. --Daniel C. Boyer 10:12 Aug 26, 2002 (PDT)

The assertion "it is falsely stated that surrealism ended..." depends on a certain definition of "surrealism". If I define "nationalism" as a 19th-century construct, then I can assert that claims that nationalism existed before the 19th century are false claims.

But this is circular reasoning. You essentially imply that because you define surrealism as an art movement between the wars my saying that that is false is only because you are defining surrealism as existing between the wars and therefore I am using a different definition of surrealism. This is nothing more than tautology. --Daniel C. Boyer 10:12 Aug 26, 2002 (PDT)

Those people who say that surrealism ended around WWII have a certain definition for surrealism.

But that definition of surrealism is not the one that surrealism has chosen for itself.

(See the definition of "surrealism" under "philosophy" in the Manifesto of Surrealism). --Daniel C. Boyer 11:55 Aug 26, 2002 (PDT)

"Those people" -- who are not surrealists -- would impose upon surrealism a definition other than the one Breton laid out in the Manifestoes. You see why I am asserting the "conspiracy theory" that the people who say surrealism ended are doing so out of a wish to see surrealism dead? Read the Manifestoes! Read What is Surrealism: Selected Writings of Andre Breton! Go to http://www.surrealism-usa.org! Make the slightest attempt to find out what surrealism really is!) --Daniel C. Boyer 10:12 Aug 26, 2002 (PDT)

Under that definition, their statement is not false. For example, the Encyclopedia Britannica is a pretty reasonable source--it may have debatable claims, but very rarely false information (that is, information that is objectively refutable).

But this is one of those "very rare" instances. --Daniel C. Boyer 10:12 Aug 26, 2002 (PDT)

EB defines surrealism as "a movement in visual art and literature, flourishing in Europe between World Wars I and II."

Notice the use of the subjective word "flourishing". This is to cover up the continued existence of surrealism: it still existed, implies Britannica, but it wasn't flourishing. (This is completely out of harmony with the facts, but since the word "flourishing" is so subjective it can't effectively be countered. But please admit that Britannica doesn't here say that surrealism ended. And it further recongised Franklin Rosemont because he wrote an article on surrealism in literature for them online. --Daniel C. Boyer 10:21 Aug 26, 2002 (PDT)

Believing their definition derives from a wish to see surrealism dead smells like a conspiracy theory.

Nearly all art movements are philosophical in nature; they have a grander purpose than creating works of art. They all want to change the world. You wrote: "The surrealist project is not to change art but to transform the world." But the purpose of art is to transform the world.

But surrealism does not and has never aimed to do this primarily by means of art and indeed at the earliest period of surrealism it was well-known that "there is no such thing as surrealist painting" (this was developed later). How do you explain the many surrealist documents, statements, tracts and books in which art is never mentioned; the many surrealist interventions that have nothing to do with art; the essential nature of surrealism as superseding aesthetics; the many surrealists who have never had anything to do with art; the statements by surrealist theorist after surrealist theorist about superseding art (the Madrid Group, Miro's "murder of painting" period, &c.)? --Daniel C. Boyer 10:12 Aug 26, 2002 (PDT)

By changing art one transforms the world.

This was never what surrealism intended to do and if you had ever read anything about surrealism you would know it. --Daniel C. Boyer 10:15 Aug 26, 2002 (PDT)

See this sentence from the Esperanto article: "Laŭ vortoj de Breton en 1935: “Transformigi la mondon", diris Markso, "ŝanĝi la vivon", diris Rimbaud?: ĉi tiuj du gvid-diraĵoj por ni estas unu sola”." --Daniel C. Boyer

This talk page is getting surrealistic... --The artist formerly known as Poor Eddie

More precisely, I think the vacuous truth article is surrealistic and this talk page is vacuous! --Ed Poor

Why? --Daniel C. Boyer

"the school of art or literature that aims at producing irrational fantasies or hallucinatory and dream-like effects": Here we go again! This is completely false! The very question of "aims" flies in the face of the automatism that is of critical importance to surrealism (see Breton's definition). --Daniel C. Boyer 17:47 Sep 27, 2002 (UTC)

Describing "Newsradio" as "surreal" shows the abuse the word "surreal" has been subjected to; by describing things that are less and less "strange" as "surreal" the word has been gradually drained of meaning. --Daniel C. Boyer

The "News Radio" link may have been "fixed," but why is News Radio in this article at all? --Daniel C. Boyer 14:33 Oct 2, 2002 (UTC)

Added a reference under "Must read". One problem, I don't remember who translated these works from French to understandable English nor when. But it is great, it is marvellous, it is wonderful. Remember what Breton said: "The marvellous is beautiful. Anything that is marvellous is beautiful, in fact only the marvellous is beautiful."
Sigg3.net

That is; I need someone to help me with this.

Need full names of these guys: Valentine, Hugo, Oppenheim, Tanguy - Greg Godwin

Surrealism is so.. Je ne sais quoi.. Have any of you read Nadja by André Breton? --Sigg3.net

Yes; much other work by him too... --Daniel C. Boyer 21:11 Jan 11, 2003 (UTC)

- Seriously: are you Daniel C. Boyer, or am I just a hopeless nerd? Or both?--Sigg3.net

- - I am Daniel C. Boyer; you are possibly a hopeless nerd, or there may be some hope for you. Or you could be completely non-nerd-like. --Daniel C. Boyer 20:11 Jan 28, 2003 (UTC)

- - Well, bugger me! Sigg3.net

"Yet the attempts of the French Surrealists to relate to the religions of the far east was a confused failure." --This sentence is totally un-NPOV and should be removed. --Daniel C. Boyer

"Yet after World War II, many of the once-startling effects of surrealism moved into popular culture, so that even advertisements commonly display "justaposed realities" such as Breton once cultivated. Today, as noted later on in this essay, one can see the surrealist influence in TV shows, music, theater..." . --This demonstrates an extremely superficial understanding of surrealism that is characteristic of much of this article. Thought this point is to some degree controversial, what has been characteristic of surrealism from the earliest period is it being a sort of "moving target," constantly staying one step ahead of bourgeois-realist attempts to incorporate it into the ruling-class canon. Perhaps the surautomatism article could give potential editors some idea of this. Suffice it to say, once again, that surrealism is not an artistic movement, and the idea of "bizarre juxtapositions" is very far from being the be-all or end-all of surrealism. --Daniel C. Boyer

"The surrealist artists made up the most popular artistic movement of Paris throughout the 1920s and 1930s": Once again! Surrealism is not an artistic movement! --Daniel C. Boyer

I think Daniel C. (sounds like a rapper:) here is right. In the Manifestoes of Surrealism, Breton describes Surrealism as a method to reach beyond (or between) the real and unreal: the surreal (over-real). --Sigg3.net

"The word Surrealism was first used to describe an aesthetic movement that emphasises the critical and imaginative powers of the unconscious": this is an absolutely gross distortion of surrealism. If you would read the Manifesto of Surrealism it is plain as day that aesthetics is utterly irrelevant to surrealism; this is even mentioned in Breton's definition of the movement. The repeated dishonest attempts to reduce surrealism to a school of art and literature one does not have to go far to see their genesis in a hatred of the implications of surrealism outside of art and literature. This interpretation of the movement holds sway, particularly in the United States, in the face of almost every primary source, every writing and statement and action that has ever come from genuine surrealism. --Daniel C. Boyer 18:50 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Angela is to be commended on her change from "recommended" to "related" reading. --Daniel C. Boyer 20:46, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Thanks. :) Angela . 22:45, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The mention of automatic mathematics should be edited rather than simply deleted. I didn't approach this by the best way, but so-called "automatic mathematics" is a part of surrealism, is significant... --Daniel C. Boyer 20:40, 24 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Surrealist ID help?

Can anyone help me ID the artist whom created the sculpture in the following photos? I've loved him since 10th grade Art History and ran across his work again at the Pompidou in Paris (I'm from the US) a couple weeks ago and cannot for the life of me remember what his name was! Thanks for any help you can give. If this is an inappropriate forum for this request, let me know and I'll remove it. However on the other hand, if someone can give me the name, I can upload the photos and put them on the surrealism page.
[1] [2]
--zandperl 01:29, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)

This is Hans Bellmer. --Daniel C. Boyer 23:50, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Thanks, I figured it out too--I googled "surrealist doll." :) The pic's up on Hans Bellmer. --zandperl 02:53, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Norwegian Surrealism

I noticed the short note on what Surrealism is considered to be in the US: namely pictures of Salvador Dali. I was wondering wether I should add something about how Surrealism reached Norway, what it was like (if it still is around) and what lack of impact it imposed on Norwegian culture. There is this one lady, at least, that should be mentioned. --Sigg3.net 15:45, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Yes; this would be very worthwhile. --Daniel C. Boyer 17:55, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I´ll get to it as soon as I get back home. --Sigg3.net

Policy on quotes

I think a few quotes (from the translated book, at least) from Andre Breton's Manifestoes of Surrealism should be provided in this article. His own words lit my dark ideas of this subject, at least. What is the policy on this? -- Sigg3.net 16:45, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Mostly quotes should go to Wikiquote but some could be included here as long as you don't mean huge lists of them. Such things are generally covered by fair use so you don't need to worry about copyright infringement. Angela . 22:45, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I could set up a couple, and a link to wikiquote:Breton or something.. == Sigg3.net 23:58, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

That's sounds the best idea. http://wikiquote.org/wiki/Andre%20Breton would be the correct address to link to. Angela . 00:03, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Thanks. - Sigg3.net 18:55, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

After reading this page I am still unclear as to what surrealism is/was. I mean, this page says who did it, and even a bit of why, but doesn't really say what they did. There is apparently already a large amount of controversy over this page so I'd rather not be bold and make changes, and there has been a lot of work to get it to its current state. --zandperl 03:02, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Here's a definition I found in the "Manifestoes of Surrealism" (ISBN on article page) by André Breton: "SURREALISM, n. Psychic automatism in its pure state, by which one proposes to express-verbally, by means of the written word, or in any other matter-the actual functioning of thought. Dictated by thought, in the absence of any control excercised by reason, exempt from any moral concern." - Sigg3.net 03:22, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Further on, you've the encyclopedia definition: "ENCYCLOPEDIA. Philosphy. Surrealism is based on the belief in the superior reality of certain forms of neglected associations, in the omnipotence of dream, in the disinterested play of thought. It tends to ruin once and for all all other psychic mechanisms and to substitute itself for them in solving all the principal problems of life. The following have performed acts of ABSOLUTE SURREALISM: Aragon, Baron, Boiffard, Breton, Carrive, Crevel, Delteil, Desnos, Eluard, Gérard, Limbour, Malkine, Morise, Naville, Noll, Péret, Picon, Soupault, Vitrac." - Sigg3.net 03:24, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

What about Freud?

In Manifestoes of Surrealism by Breton, he clearly stresses the scientific foundation of Surrealism, nested in the thoughts of Sigmund Freud. I think this should be mentioned at the beginning of the article somewhere. I'll have to get back to you when I've read the manifestoes again so I can be sure this is right. Objections? - Sigg3.net 07:41, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Dali bias?

"Dalí was in fact expelled from the surrealist movement in the late 1930s for his far right-wing tendencies, and after that time his painting has little significance for surrealism, moving further and further away from the movement." -How exactly do you expel someone from a MOVEMENT. This entry also seems to point to a political POV or bias, specifically that one must be either left-wing or at least not right-wing to be involved in this form of art or a movement to participate or promote it. This seems to be a rather unfounded belief to claim that a person's political beleifs qualify or disqualify them as being an artist.

This is radically point-missing. Surrealism is not a "form of art" or an artistic movement, and qualification as an artist is irrelevant to qualification as a surrealist. --Daniel C. Boyer 20:49, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The fact that he was expelled, then? Change what he was expelled from. He was expelled from a group of people who didn't recognize his work as true surrealistic work. He lost his friends. - Sigg3.net 11:31, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I tried to compromise on the points made but saying somone has "far right-wing tendencies" is most defintely a POV. I took out far and because of the movement question I added reportedly. I think the authors point still gets across with these edits. -GrazingshipIV 19:22, Mar 22, 2004 (UTC)

Ok the current version is probably the best it is going to get. thanks.

GrazingshipIV 21:40, Mar 22, 2004 (UTC)

Article Format

I came here because I was interested in finding out what surrealism is. This article doesn't help me as much as I'd like. It opens with a very general statement about the movement, then instantly starts listing instances of surrealism (usually without explanation, forcing me to follow numerous links). I'm sure that it's a good compilation for those familiar with surrealism, but those of us who don't know it are left baffled. Most entries on movements (literary or otherwise) begin by identifying chief characteristics, etc. -- they certainly should, I think. Can someone here put in a paragraph early on that explains in more direct terms what, exactly, surrealism is? I'd appreciate it. Jwrosenzweig 16:56, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I've made the same comment earlier. Perhaps also an additional article on surrealism (art) would be of use to those of us whom primarily identify the movement with art. --zandperl 02:47, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Surrealist postage stamps

Where should surrealist postage stamps be mentioned? --Daniel C. Boyer 00:19, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

External links

Why is "The Surrealist Group in St. Louis" in the external links section when it is not a link? Angela . 21:40, Apr 30, 2004 (UTC)

Angela- I agree, I had removed it earlier, but it keeps coming back. I have no problem with it being in the article, but it needs to be a link. I hope we are not offending by continuing to remove it, but to be included, it must have a valid hyperlink in my opinion. PM - May 7, 2004

Keith Wigdor and Daniel C. Boyer

In all fairness to Keith Wigdor, I deleted the accusations against him in here made by Boyer. This should not stand either. Your position as an "arbitrator" or someone who is acting on behalf of Wikipedia in "fairness" by deleting the response made to Boyer on behalf of Wigdor, is really biased in the favor of Boyer. Please show some restraint in favoring Boyer's accusations as well. Fair is only Fair and comrade Wigdor's position is entitled to a fair defense. If you delete responses on behalf of comrade Wigdor, then it is only fair to delete Boyer's comments as well. Please be fair.

I am not an "arbitrator" but am merely another member of the Wikipedia community, like you, who is trying to get the article right. I removed the accusations for the reasons stated here on your talk page, Boyer's comments, on the other hand, seemed fact-based, though certainly any rebuttal would still be welcome provided that its roots are not based on an ad hominem analysis of Boyer's shortcomings. I am hardly a partisan of Boyer's, and as he can attest, he and I have had several disagreements on suitability of various articles for the encyclopedia. I would welcome your help getting the Surrealism article right, as would many of us, and hope you are here to help with that. UninvitedCompany 23:23, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Dear Univited Company, I do not know Keith Wigdor, and I do not know Daniel Boyer (and I do not know you as well). It appears that there is a dispute over the Surrealism article in Wikipedia, between this Wigdor and Boyer. I am not here to take sides, but I do not agree with the anti-Dali sentiment that is taken by critics of Dali. I have been watching the Surrealism article here on Wikipedia during the past two weeks and though I do not agree with either this Wigdor's position, and this Boyer's position in regards to who is and who is not surrealist, I do take issue with any attacks on Dali and any bias towards this man's work. Dali was a great surrealist and I know for a fact that he was not officially, "expelled" from the surrealist movement. Andre Breton even stated in his own words, that Dali was not expelled, that no one gets expelled from the movement, they just leave. Read Parinaud's book, "Conversations: The Autobiography of Surrealism", Breton admits to differences between him and, "Avida Dollars" but that Dali just went his own way. As for this Chicago Group, whoever is posting in here on behalf of this Wigdor, has a very valid point. There is no website to this Chicago Group and I doubt they even exist.

Look, for example, in the Grove Dictionary of Art (see Wikipedia talk: Requested articles). --Daniel C. Boyer 23:41, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I do know that a man named Franklin Rosemont helped edit a book, "What is Surrealism" by Andre Breton, but I doubt that this man,(Rosemont) even met Breton. Wigdor's friends have a point. Breton was open to anyone taking pictures of him with his friends and followers, all the way up to 1966 when he died, so why are there no pictures of this Rosemont man with Breton. As far as I can see, the book, "What is Surrealism" edited by Rosemont, is a project written with Rosemont's observations being the dominate bias in this case. As far as I can see, I say just leave the Surrealism article as it is, that is the right thing to do. (--anon)

While the Chicago Surrealist Group may very well exist, perhaps the more relevant question is whether they (and Black Swan and the two Rosemonts and so forth) are notable enough to merit mention here. I doubt it, but I don't know for certain. I agree with you that Dali (and Miro and a few others) have left the most enduring legacy; Breton deserves coverage because of his role in initiating the movement.

By the way, the leading spaces you've been putting in front of your text make it hard to read because of the way the software formats it. I've taken them out twice now. UninvitedCompany 20:16, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Dear Uninvited Company, I Love Andre Breton and I also Love Keith Wigdor! Andre Breton is Surrealism! BJF is Brandon John Freels and he is an internet sabouter and has been banned from websites for harrassment and online abuse. I deleted his post attack against comrade Wigdor, if you feel it necessary to delete this post, Uninvited Company, then that is your wish. However, comrade Wigdor deserves to be treated fairly (same as Boyer) and both are entitled to their stake in the surrealist movement. Wigdor is an important part of surrealism! Breton is the most important,since he gave surrealism its international platform back in the day! The Rosemonts still have not shown the public any photos of them with Andre Breton, because it is very possible that they never met him, no matter what invalid statements Boyer and his friend Brandon will make. Again, if this post gets deleted, fine. But any unjust attacks against comrade Wigdor will get deleted as well. Fair is only Fair and Surrealism is for everyone to participate in. If we are to transform the world, then surrealism MUST maintain an open platform for everyone to take part in, not just elitists who stake claim to surrealism like its some kind of special drug to be kept to a few! That's how surrealism has been treated since Breton passed and it is very wrong! By the way, there have been no, "recent" activities of these fugazi, "groups" as BJF, Brandon falsely claims. There is no website for the Chicago Group online (as evident in the dead link) because there is no group! Uninvited Company, believe me when I tell you that BJF and his friends are elitists and in fairness to BJF and Boyer, you can delete this post, if you feel it proper. However, my friends and I will defend comrade Wigdor against any internet attacks in here. Peace! Daniel Jiminez, Surrealist (from Astoria) Word out!

Dear Uninvited Company, I respect your insight and fairness. I need your insight into this matter. Daniel C.Boyer has posted links on Wikipedia to a website called Surrealcoconut.com on to the Wikipedia pages for Surrealism and the Surrealist related pages. Daniel C.Boyer very well knows the fact that Keith Wigdor is being viciously Attacked on this website by his friend, Eric W.Bragg and it is illegal! I ask of you, Uninvited Company to please investiage this matter (regarding Wikipedia having this sites link) with fairness and tell Dan not to post any surrealcoconut.com links on to Wikipedia, for the website Intentionally Abuses Keith Wigdor online and it is libel. This Eric W.Bragg, is a close friend of Dan Boyer and he is stalking and harrassing Keith online for the past 2 years. If you do not believe me, then take a good look at what Dan's good close friend Eric did to Keith on Eric's surrealcoconut website,(which Dan posts the sites link on here) here take a look at this harrassment which Dan Boyer approves, http://www.surrealcoconut.com/doorwig1.html

Dan Boyer has posted links to surrealcoconut on to Wikipedia and it is not right that this surrealcoconut website gets traffic through Wikipedia thanks to Dan Boyer's friend Eric W.Bragg helping hurt Keith. What I am saying is that Dan does not post the page link that hurts Keith, but people can get on to there from the links on other Wikipedia pages and then go to the Doorwig Abuse Page. There are pictures of Keith on there that abuse and slander him and this Eric Still has not removed this libel offline! Or how about the other websites that Dan Boyer's friends created to abuse Keith? Uninvited Company, just look at this and then try to understand. Dan Boyer does not deserve such special treatment on here (or am I wrong?) since Dan has attacked innocent surrealist artists online. Dan will deny this, but I can show you the arson threat letter that he signed. Dan and his friends stated in their own words that they will hurt other artists and burn their paintings at BRAVE DESTINY's SURREALISM SHOW! Anyway, please take all surrealcoconut links off Wikipedia, if you cannot, then try to understand. Would you like people abusing you online as they have done to Keith? Here is the link in case you overlook it, http://www.surrealcoconut.com/doorwig1.html

Dear Mr. Daniel C.Boyer, Dan, may I call you Dan? Dan, as you well know, your manipualtion of information on the contributions of your friends, has obviously led to the expressed doubts concerning the validity of the contributions of this, "Chicago Group", or the website, Surrealcoconut that you have posted as a reference link on Wikipedia, when it obviously is a site that wrongly harrasses Keith. Dan, you did see what your friend, Eric did to Keith? Is that Fair? I ask of the Wikipedia Community: Is it Fair that the good gentlemen, Daniel C.Boyer, be allowed such a vast amount of bandwidth and available space on Wikipedia, when you all can see that he and his friends have used surrealism as an easy outlet of expression to wrongly attack Dali, Wigdor, and anyone who disagress with them! I ask of the Wikipedia Community that if Daniel Boyer cannot prove or provide any Photographs of the Rosemonts with Breton, or any current website of this, "Chicago Group" then he should provide more of an open point of view to the people who do not believe Dan nor his friends. The people that Mr. Boyer keeps on providing information for here on Wikipedia, Have no Concern nor Respect for Wikipedia in the first place! Did you all see the way Daniel Boyer's friends TREAT those who disagree with them? Did you all take a look at the, "Portland Surrealist Group" Wikipedia Attack on their Forum? What about all those personal pov bias attacks against the great Dali and his valid contributions to surrealism? That is not Fair. Please give others a chance at being involved in a voice. I know you all do.

Dan Boyer and his friends have been banned from websites in the past for forum violations and online abuse. Can Dan Boyer please allow a Surrealist Manifesto to be placed on Wikipedia?

There is a link to Breton's Manifesto. The whole source document is not appropriate for an encyclopedia like Wikipedia. --Daniel C. Boyer 23:16, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

What about the Surrealist Terrance Lindall and his Surrealist Manifesto?

The URL for this is http://www.cinemavii.com/Events/BraveDestiny/NISM.htm . In my opinion it demonstrates practically instantly how little Lindall has to do with, and in fact knows about surrealism: he was "astounded" by the definition of surrealism Breton's Manifesto of Surrealism provides, and further states his ignorance of any writing about the Manifesto. --Daniel C. Boyer 23:16, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

What about the Arson Threat to the Brave Destiny Surrealist Ball at the WAH Center in Brooklyn last year, that Dan and his friends sent wanting to hurt the people in the show and burn their paintings? Dan, could you please just show one picture of Franklin and Penelope with Breton?

Keith Wigdor

Would anyone dispute that Keith Wigdor is not a significant enough person in the history of surrealism to warrant mention on this page? If anyone disagrees I will not be adverse to his being mentioned on this page so long as it is made clear that he is an extremely controversial figure who has been the subject of bitter denunciations by surrealists. --Daniel C. Boyer 19:37, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Dear Daniel, I do agree with you on this point that Keith Wigdor is a very controversial figure who has been denounced by the surrealists alive today.

Given that you then go on to list a number of people as the "surrealist community" after mentioning "surrealists alive today", I would suggest that you have waived your right to say that they are not surrealists after this (unless you present new evidence that has caused you to change your mind). --Daniel C. Boyer 17:17, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Now, what makes Keith Wigdor so unique in regards to his contribution to surrealism is this: Keith Wigdor challenged the entire surrealist community, from Marie D. Massoni from the Paris Group, to Pierre, to Evi, to Brandon, to Dale, to Shibek, to Barrett John Erickson, to Stuart, to Eric, to Hannah, to X, to James Sebor, to Derek S., to Richard D., to Andrew Torch, to YOU, Daniel that Surrealism must maintain an open platform to the public and to denounce any closed door policy that the surrealist groups maintain. Dan, this is why your complaints(along with all your comrades) regarding surrealism being misrepresented by Dali Hacks is very weak to begin with because you and your friends offer no results, no clarity, no willingness to work with others! Dan, you have to admit, you and your friends have not made any attempt to collectively unite to PROVE to us all that YOU all are the real thing. That is Surrealism. For example, why has there been no major International Surrealist Exhibition with poets and artists alike, you know, YOU and Brandon and your other friends.

I took out the silly, I should have originally out in self-serving surrealists.

Dan, please stop avoiding the truth. Brandon is not a surrealist.

What is your basis for this assertion? --Daniel C. Boyer 19:28, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The reason is simple and easy to answer: Daniel, you and your friends cannot even organize any kind of proper collective event that would involve all your friends. Dan, I am not talking about that sham in Ohio, run by backstabbing Craig, either. Dan, if you can prove that you and say, Brandon, can collectively unite to put on a REAL Surrealist Event, International, you know, then you would have some credibility. Dan, what does Brandon look like? At least Artaud made his face accessible, though Brandon is no Artaud, and your friends Brandon is a rather sophmoric poet as well. Dan, I say, get your friends together and PROVE to the world that you all really EXIST! A real International Surrealist Event run by the so-called, real, "surrealists" who you claim are you and your friends. In the meantime, I doubt that you and brandon and all your friends can even put out any collective statement. You and your friends cannot unite on anything, and the world sees this. Dan, ask yourself this, why do you think Keith takes the opportuntiy that you all do not? Dan, you and your friends are not surrealists. If you were, then I say, Really show us! and please no Ohio shams, A Real INTERNATIONAL SURREALIST EVENT, poets and all. I say you cannot do it!!! Prove me wrong!!!

I don't know the background of this dispute, but my reaction to it is as follows; are you saying that a writer that hasn't published anything isn't a writer (using strawman)? Or that a brilliant painter that no one recognizes is no painter (e.g Edvard Munch)? A Surrealist Event? What?! Is it Events that makes the surrealist? I beg to differ... As mentioned, I do not know the background of this dispute, so I'm open for corrections. - Sigg3.net 07:25, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Dear Sigg3, I am not using the strawman fallacy in this case. Maybe Modus Ponen. Sigg3, thank you for your contribution and it would be nice to have more of your input. Sigg3, the case presented here is this: Daniel C.Boyer (and in fairness to the good gentlemen Mr. Boyer)has made attempts to dominate All of the Surrealism pages (and links, thereof) by literally posting way too many articles on him and his friends. This is not the first time that Dan had to debate this overwhelming presence on Wikipedia, look for user MB's protests against Dan as well. This is a case of Dan Boyer using Wikipedia as a means of a Vested Self-Serving Interest in regards to Dan and his friends, when it comes to Surrealism being referenced on this free encyclopedia service. Sigg3, there does exist way too many substantial gaps in validating the truth concerning the contributions of Daniel and All his friends in regards to Surrealism as it is recognized in a historic context. Sigg3, as you well know, Wikipedia is used as a reference for research, (though I will be open to criticism on this point as well), and Daniel C. Boyer has posted way too many articles in the Surrealism pages to warrant a proper investigation into whether or not Dan really has a financial and vested interest in his overuse of posting way too many articles.

Sigg3, the book, "SURREALIST SUBVERSIONS" is written by a friend of Dan's and Dan is a contributor to the book.

Sorry.. It was I using strawman:) I'll have to read this one later, though, I'm running out of cash here.. - Sigg3.net 12:53, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Who is Surrealist Subversions written by? It's an anthology. --Daniel C. Boyer 19:28, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Come on Dan, I know that! Does compiled by Ron the radio guy sound better?

The book is really dominated by a presence secular to the Rosemont's and there attempts at controlling a movement that cannot be controlled. Also, the Dali-bashing by Dan and his friends in their public statements is totally biased and not the way how the rest of the world sees Surrealism. Dan has maintained a secular and elitist presence in his attempts and trying to monopolize this great movement, along with his friends. There are 25 of them, along with Dan, that are way out of line when it comes to presenting Surrealism to the world. Sigg3, ask yourself this question, from a standpoint of curiousity, has Dan provided us all here a picture or a link to where we can find Any Photo of The Rosemonts, Franklin and his wife Penelope with Andre Breton. Sigg3, according to the Rosemont's version of their manufactured historic facts, they claim they met Breton in Dec.1965 and were welcomed into the Surrealist Movement by Breton and his group of friends, the Paris Surrealist Group. Sigg3, I admit that I can be wrong on this next point: Mark Pollizitti's (I maybe spelled his name wrong) biography of Andre Breton, REVOLUTION OF THE MIND, makes no mention anywhere of the Rosemonts. I could be very wrong on this, but I am sure that I remember upon reading the book from last year, and looking in it's index, there is NO mention of the Rosemonts. Not even in the index. Now, again, I could be wrong, but I am going to get the book again and search. Anyway, from what I understand, the official Paris Group disbanded in 1969, and what remains today is a select few friends of the friends of those from Breton's days. This current, "Paris Group" is a sham, as far as I see them. Jean S, disbanded the original group back in 1969, but I can be wrong. Anyway, Dan Boyer and his friends, the Rosemonts and all there comrades, claim that Franklin and his wife Penelope are the leaders of this, "Chicago Surrealist Group" and they are the leaders of, "THE SURREALIST MOVEMENT IN THE USA". They used to have a website, selling radical and revolutionary books and literature from Pathfinder, with a mandatory minimum purchase of $25, no less to one's credit card, (oh so revolutionary, Ka-Ching$$$). Anyway, these people, Dan and all his friends, State that it is HISTORIC Fact that the Rosemonts met the greatest living poet and surrealist of the 2O century, Andre Breton back in Dec.1965. I say that is a made up story, and I say to Dan and all his friends, PROVE it! Please show a picture of the Rosemonts with Breton, so we all here at Wikipedia can see the Truth! History will be verified and this story will become fact. As far as I am concerned, Dan and all his friends are just trying to make a name for themselves in the arts, (they will deny this) and use Surrealism as their platform to make some easy money. I really do want to be proven wrong. Please Dan, just ask the Rosemonts to show us the picture! That would be nice. By the way, Dan is a very good artist, but not a surrealist. He is somewhere in the Avant Garde, so it would be cool to the Wikipedia Community to decide, because Dan is a good artist, very experimental and interesting, that I will not deny. In the meantime, Dan, Please just show us a picture of the Rosemonts with Breton? Please....

What's this?

What's this:
Dali proved to become surrealism's greatest success even surpassing Breton.
Even though there was an element of internal competition within the group built around Aragon and Breton, also admitted by Breton himself, this has nothing to do with the result(s) of the surrealistic experiments the large group performed on numerous occasions. Heh, Soupalt almost killed someone when set into trance once, and during the same gathering others were brutally waken up before committing suicide. To say that Dali proved to be(come) surrealism's greatest success has got nothing to do with surrealism itself (or, an Sich), but the "level of fame" among outsiders. The outsiders, those who read and enjoy the result of surrealist experiences, should not be regarded as "an audience" to the same extent as the audience of Dada performances, normal bookreadings etc. etc. Blah, blah, blah. My point is this: would we like to write an article about how surrealism percieve itself or how others have "mistaken" it to be an artistic movement? (Failing not to repeat Boyer) - Sigg3.net 21:38, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I think what you say is essentially true, and I think an article along these lines (but what would it be titled?) might be good. --Daniel C. Boyer 18:07, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I can see that most people wouldn't consider it "mainstream" enough to be 'pedia material, but should'nt this be part of it somehow? Maybe one should just do an external page and link to it? - Sigg3.net 17:15, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Dear Sigg3, it is a fact that Salvador Dali proved to become surrealim's greatest success, considering the overwhelming historical records and facts that document Dali's work. Sigg3, if you are to, " write an article about how surrealism percieve itself", you would then be placing yourself (and those few) that share your point of view as the sole reference on how surrealism is perceived by the world as they log on to Wikipedia to research this great movement. Please be fair, I requested closure on this issue, in regards to facts. I would like to build an article page for Terrance Lindall's Surrealist Manifesto. Sigg3, correct me if I am wrong, but Wikipedia is a Free Encyclopedia and we have an obligation to present facts, not favoritism to those, "in good standing". This is becoming a closed doors, private members only club, and I would like to be proven wrong. Please be fair.

Intro

I don't know much about surrealism, but the intro looks odd to me. Are Keith Wigdor and this Terence fellow really the pillars holding up modern surrealism? It seems a very odd placement for controversial info -- I almost cut the sentence referring to them, but then decided that I don't know this movement well, and perhaps they are that notable. But can there be some references proving their notability? I think that would improve things. Jwrosenzweig 17:33, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Dear Jwrosenzweig, Yes, Keith Wigdor is a Surrealist who has established an online event of contemporary surrealism in 2003, this was called, SURREALISM 2003. It featured over 15 Surrealist Artists and Poets(including one of the founding members of The WEST COAST SURREALIST GROUP, GREGG SIMPSON, who is a Legend in Surrealism and has worked with JOSE PIERRE, Andre Breton's personal assistant! There is a fantastic reference material on this group and documented by Jose Pierre as well!) and was a huge online success. Terrance Lindall is the author of the NEW INTERNATIONAL SURREALIST MANIFESTO and he is the man responsible for the International Surrealist Event, "BRAVE DESTINY", at the WAH Center in Brooklyn, New York, last year, which featured 500 plus artists working within the context of Breton's psychic automatism. I am going to place the manifesto on here so you can read it. It is very good and of current historical value in regards to surrealism today. Let me go find it and I will be right back.

7/15/2003 NEW INTERNATIONAL SURREALIST MANIFESTO (NISM) by Terrance Lindall In creating the show Brave Destiny in September 2003 in cooperation with London’s Society for Art of the Imagination, I also, ultimately wanted to take a look at what the living and working surrealist/visionary/fantastic artists are thinking and doing in context of Breton. Going back to Breton’s Le Manefeste du Surrealisme of 1924 and looking once more at his definition, I was astounded.- “pure psychic automatism by which it is intended to express, either verbally or in writing, the true function of thought. Thought dictated in the absence of all control exerted by reason, and outside of all moral preoccupations. As applied to the plastic arts, it would mean the creation of works of art dissociated from attempts to represent anything, involving more the pure free action of the hands without hindrance of thought. In other words, the purest form of surrealism would be abstract expressionism! Since I have not bothered to read the undoubtedly many essays on Breton’s manifesto over the years, I would imagine that this is a conclusion which many have come to. Clement Greenberg said in the Edmonton interview in 1991: “The abstract painters took their Surrealism from Miro and Masson. Not from... and that seemed a liberty for them. And then they didn't paint like Surrealists. But, oh, automatic writing, oh sure. You start off free with a scribble and a few marks... you got started from that. And that was a Surrealist method. They wanted to invent and so they would sit down, a Gorky did, and do Picasso. That's putting them down, because when Gorky did Picasso it turns out he did some damn good stuff. Automatic writing, automatic painting became almost a matter of course in New York on 8th Street at the end of the '30s. It was a way of working up invention, as it were, without worrying about figuration, representation, or symbols -- whatever. The Surrealists were a great encouragement in that respect.” Breton, was most interested in the dream state. He considered Freud’s ventures into interpretation of, and the importance of dreams a great new science. Freud’s influence over psychology and psychiatry, even up until recently, has been great. His theories are perhaps entirely wrong. The one thing he was able to prove was that “belief systems” have a great influence on human behavior. It is the placebo effect. If one believes the interpretation of a dream will help the patient, then the patient can be cured of what ails him psychologically. Belief systems help us operate in the world, but they are not always based on fact. The Ptolmeic view of the world as the center of the universe probably was a very workable hypothesis until it failed to help in navigating at sea. Yes, the dream is the important central sustaining foundation of what the surreal, visionary and fantastic are about. Breton said at the beginning as a sort of lament, that “we are...living under a reign of logic.’ This was undoubtedly because the physical sciences and industry were beginning to show signs of dominating the thinking and spirits of men. But in fact, men’s spirits have never been ruled by logic, and the tools of logic as applied in science and mathematics only serve to deliver to the man what he irrationally desires as an animal. Breton says,” The mind of the dreaming man is fully satisfied with whatever happens to it. The agonizing question of possibility does not arise. Kill, plunder more quickly, love as much as you wish. And if you die, are you not sure of being roused from the dead? Let yourself be led. Events will not tolerate deferment. You have no name. Everything is inestimably easy. “What power, I wonder, what power so much more generous than others confers this natural aspect upon the dream and makes me welcome unreservedly a throng of episodes whose strangeness would overwhelm me if they were happening as I write this? And yet I can believe it with my own eyes, my own ears. That great day has come, that beast has spoken.” It is this freedom that the surrealist seeks in his art, to create spontaneously, without effort, automatically, to discover the wonder of the universe in all of its manifestation without the hindrance of cause and effect, to feel the fullness of both joy and horror without harm. This is not specifically what the abstract expressionists are offering, but it is what the surreal/visionary and fantastic artists of Brave Destiny are pursuing in their art. How important is this? If man’s intellectual and emotional response to innovation and the envisioning of possibilities is important, then dreams, which are free wheeling manifestations of possibility, based indeed upon the waking experiences of the individual, are important! What about the craftsmanship which is always an important part of the work of the artists of Brave Destiny? This preponderance of excellence, of draughtsmanship and composition, has been disparaged in the recent past by the nonrepresentational artists and their supporters who call them mere “illustrators.” Again, going back to the Greenberg Interview: Question: “Now to get back to this idea of modernism, are you saying that it really does not have as much to do with the way of structuring the picture or setting up the space in the picture?” Greenberg: “What did happen was that Manet started flattening the picture. Fromentin said he was painting playing cards. And Cézanne said about Gauguin and Van Gogh that they painted Chinese pictures because they didn't deal enough with the illusion of the third dimension, that they were too flat. Cézanne, who wanted to get that third dimension, turned out in his last paintings to get terribly flat. And then the Cubists came along, and then the Fauves. The Fauves... ah, that's a special chapter, the Fauves. And it happened... well, it's this way: you painted to make as good a picture as you could -- no program -- you might have a program for making good pictures but no program beyond that. You wanted to paint as good a picture as you could, as all painters try, and you found that it wasn't good enough if you continued to shade and model. That's what happened. I mentioned before: Pollock wanted to model and shade and he found out he couldn't. It didn't come out good. He had to go flat relatively. Nobody wants to paint flat pictures, it's tougher to make them good... “ That is an amusing comment. Greenberg seems to say that all artists would love to paint in the manner of the 16th century master, but the New York School failed! They did come into styles that had what Greenberg called “quality” by pursuing what, through their limited skills, they could in fact achieve, but it was not high representational art. The artists like Salvador Dali and his great living contemporary Ernst Fuchs were indeed masters of the craft of painting. Ernst carried his evolution of this mastery of painting to the point wherein he rediscovered the 16th techniques of the high renaissance masters - the Mische technique. Today he teaches this technique and has a number of master followers including Brigid Marlin of the Society for Art of the Imagination, who is world renowned and teaches worldwide. In America we have Roberto Venosa. In Europe and the United States, many artists are coming back to this method of painting. Today's artists of the surreal/visionary/fantastic genre have in hand two goals: mastery of technique and pursuit of the possibility envisioned in the dream state, as presented in a concrete representation of the waking state. Breton was looking for a time when dreams could be subjected to methodical examination. He said “When the time comes when we can submit the dream to a methodical examination, when by methods yet to be determined we succeed in realizing the dream in its entirety (and that implies a memory discipline measurable in generations, but we can still begin by recording salient facts), when the dream's curve is developed with an unequaled breadth and regularity, then we can hope that mysteries which are not really mysteries will give way to the great Mystery. I believe in the future resolution of these two states -- outwardly so contradict- tory -- which are dream and reality, into a sort of absolute reality, a surreality, so to speak, I am aiming for its conquest, certain that I myself shall not attain it, but too indifferent to my death not to calculate the joys of such possession.” His comment reminds me of this quote: “This is not a dream of a common language, but of a powerful infidel heteroglossia (Donna Haraway, "A cyborg Manifesto")." (I will now borrow heavily from my own “Epistemological Movement” essay, 2001, which appeared in New York Arts Magazine in February 2002. To fully understand the foundations of my statements here you can go to that. ) Amazingly we see Breton’s search for a perfect surreality of an understanding, an amalgam of waking and dream, reflected in Star Trek’s Borgs. They have perfect common understanding, they translate to each other all meaning perfectly, but they have no sense of love or beauty. Is this why our artists rejoice in the uncontrolled logic of the dream state, untranslatable to the waking? Because in the perfect amalgam and understanding of waking and dream there would be no beauty or wonder? Is Breton’s hope a self-defeating one: that the artist is trying to communicate as perfectly as possible an expression of waking and dream that would be opposed to the wonder embodied in the surreal? Would there still be the “Great Mystery” after his vision is fulfilled? The waking and the dream are seemingly in opposition to each other. The very idea that systems and people need not oppose each other and that there will be harmony in nature is absurd. If there is harmony, it is the harmony of process in which things and ideas are created and destroyed, or the harmony that is observed from a distance: the beauty of star systems colliding. At a closer look it is devastatingly violent and frightening. Krishna and Shiva, the gods of creation and destruction, a continual war of creation and destruction, the Great Dialectic. Perhaps the fires of the dialectic wars will burn away the dross to reveal the gold, as Breton's Merging of the waking and dream. The fires themselves have a terrible beauty. In fact, the contradiction of the dream state and waking state, the uncontrolled dream versus the controlled & practical and logical of the waking state, is a necessary condition whose energies of their dialectic yield new possibilities. They give impetus to invention in science and art. They will never be one thing, and should not. We should always be wondering and interpreting our dreams and trying to make them manifest. The wonderment should reside in the place where no language can describe the process of creation, destruction and change, a place of such unknown mystery, Breton’s Great Mystery! Between the realms of waking and dream and creation & destruction, there is an unknown land. It is that land that Breton wanted to understand. The physical sciences pursue that mystery too and have found that “Greater Mystery.” Scientists found a level at which matter did not behave in a predictably determined manner. To describe this in the language of mathematics Heisenberg stated his famous "Indeterminacy Principle." . Nothing stands as truth in the world, it is always toppling. Consciousness endlessly transforms. If it did not there would be no consciousness. Transformation is a necessary condition of consciousness. In dreams especially there is transformation without cause. One moment we are flying, next we are somewhere else. The composite self exists as two poles, the dreaming and the waking, reifying the world: The poles are like binary stars pulling upon one another and transforming one another exchanging tremendous energies of insight and creativity. The distinction between mind and body is not valid. That is not to say that only the material world exists. In fact, there is no proof that the material world apart from mind exists at all; rather all we really have evidence of is that there are perceptions. Therefore, mind states and brain states, the perception of either, are perceptions alone, pure and simple. The sensations of the body are also perceptions. All is perception. Dreams and waking reality are of the same fabric. Intelligence can create great art, and sometimes great natural "intuition" does. But "intuition" is the working of the subconscious “dream-state.” What is art? It is the changing of mind states to perceive the world in various new ways with no necessary condition of practical application for procreation or survival, but it does inspire practical inventiveness. Dreams and waking reality are one in the same: perceptions, dual aspects of consciousness! They inform one another, and continually transform the self.

Please don't spam talk pages with source material like this. It does nothing other than limit discourse and prevent reasonable dialogue. All right, you've made some assertions -- give me links to evidence that make your assertions verifiable. Preferably the links should establish the renown of these two surrealists and the fact that they are important enough to modern surrealism to warrant mention in the introduction to this article. Jwrosenzweig 18:08, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

You should just list the URL (which is already above on this page, provided by me) rather than reprinting the whole thing. --Daniel C. Boyer 18:41, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Dear Jwrosenweig, This is not a, "Spam" of talk pages as you so wrongly state. This is taken from a Direct Link of a URL placed on to Wikipedia by Daniel C.Boyer! Please do not attack me nor my posts! That is not fair. Again, Daniel C.Boyer placed the URL that contained Terrance's Manifesto on to Wikipedia, That is where I go this from! Please do not attack and abuse me, by calling my posts spam. That is just not fair.

Unknown poster, it's spamming to post a massive source document in the middle of a conversation. If you don't want to call it spamming, call it something else -- what it is, is unhelpful. It doesn't need to be here -- I can follow the link as well as you can, and read the document, if I wish to. Jwrosenzweig 18:43, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I would like to note once again that Keith Wigdor and Terrance Lindall have been the subject of vehement denunciations by actual surrealists (I took part in this, most notably in the statement against the "Brave Destiny" show, "Craven Destiny"), and to fail to mention this in the article is highly questionable, to say the least, from an NPOV perspective. In my opinion, Wigdor and Lindall claim to be surrealists despite the fact that they are hostile to everything about the movement, and this opinion has been much repeated by other surrealists. In particular, Lindall's extremely questionable connection to the movement can be seen throughout his manifesto (for example, by his being "astounded" by what Breton wrote, something that would be known by all surrealists like the back of one's hand).

If these two who are, in my opinion, minor figures in surrealism (and I do not hestitate to assert that I myself am a minor figure who should by no means be mentioned in this article), are to be mentioned in this article such mention should be severely qualified by the controversy among surrealists over their activities and even the accusations by surrealists that these two are "false surrealists". If this is done I am not adverse to the mention of them. --Daniel C. Boyer 18:28, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, Daniel. I appreciate your help -- what you're saying matches my impression of these figures. I'd say that they may have a minor place in this article, though I doubt it. I think they certainly have no place in the introduction, as though they were hugely significant figures in this movement. Is there any objection to my removing them? Or will someone else do it (you, Daniel?)? Jwrosenzweig 18:32, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I think it would be better if you did it as I was a signatory of "Craven Destiny" and so may not be impartial enough as regards Lindall. --Daniel C. Boyer 18:42, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Dear Jwrosenzweig, I object to any removal of Wigdor or Lindall. I also object to your attack of my post as, "spam" since I obtained the manifesto from a URL that Daniel C.Boyer posted on to Wikipedia. Please be fair.

Unknown poster, you haven't provided any evidence to oppose that removal but a lot of unsubstantiated assertions, and the posting of a huge source document unnecessarily. I'll agree not to call it spam in the now-current sense of "advertising". Spam, however, entered internet slang as a term meaning any unnecessary or unsolicited information that drowns out actual conversation. In that sense, your posting of that manifesto was spam. Jwrosenzweig 18:50, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Dear Jwrosenzweig, you are abusing your role as an administrator on here, since I obtained the information from a URL posted by Dan Boyer on to Wikipedia and the manifesto information was a response to your request for information. So now every post that I make is going to be labeled, "spam"? I feel the rope tightening around my neck as you lynch me. That is not spam, I totally disagree, since I provided the info as a response to the request. You are really going after me,I see, thanks for the fairness. Again, the manifesto info was taken from a URL posted on to Wikipedia by Dan Boyer, let the record show that fact. Please be fair, sir. Dear Jwrosenzweig, this was the request you made, these are your words, "but then decided that I don't know this movement well, and perhaps they are that notable. But can there be some references proving their notability?" So I posted the manifesto from the URL posted by Dan Boyer on Wikipedia, written by Terrance so that You and the rest of Wikipedia can learn the reference facts that you request, after all, you stated you knew litte about Surrealism, correct?

Please stop overreacting. I am not abusing my role as an administrator at all -- I haven't protected any pages, deleted any pages, or blocked anyone, as a result of this conversation. I asked for references, not for the wholesale posting of a manifesto which proves nothing about its author's notoriety. Furthermore, all I'm saying is that it was unhelpful. I'm not saying you should be banned for it -- I just want to have a productive conversation. Do you object to that? I never claimed I would label all your posts spam. I labeled one of them spam for a very specific reason which I explained. Please stop making these accusations, which are entirely baseless. I have no desire to lynch anyone -- I am not lynching you. I am disagreeing with you. There is an enormous difference. Finally, to repeat an insistence I have made several times, I am looking for references which prove the fame and notability of these figures you are defending. You apparently do not understand this request -- I am not asking to "learn the reference facts". I am asking for reputable sites which explain why these alleged surrealists are notable enough to be mentioned in the introduction to this article when Dali, Breton, and others are not. You have not provided them. I hope you will do so. Until they are provided, however, we have no basis for allowing the intro to remain in your preferred state. Jwrosenzweig 19:12, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Dear Jwrosenzweig, I will agree with this one compromise which I seem to have no other choice.(You are really to forceful, sir.) I recommend that Dali and Breton be mentioned in the very first paragraph of the Introduction. I recommend that Keith Wigdor and Terrance Lindall be mentioned at the end of the article, OK?. I am really giving in to your force, sir. I feel really weak and invalid thanks to your cold communication with me, sir. I have rights and so do you and the good gentlemen, Daniel C.Boyer, who I respect, but strongly disagree with and I see nothing but total bias and favoritism to his POV. Dear Jwrosenzweig, by the way, according to what you said to me above, if I were to provide you any, "reputable sites" that you want, I would still be considered posting spam, correct. I am totally afraid of posting any URL's or Information now, since you have the power to revoke everything I write. You are going against everything I do. I thought this was a free encyclopedia. Thanks for the warm welcome!

I'm sorry you find me forceful -- I am seeing a situation that needs resolution, and am actively seeking it. You shouldn't feel weak and invalid -- why would you? I haven't done anything mean to you -- I've objected to one thing you did, and then generally asked for sources that verify assertions you've made. You wouldn't be posting spam by posting some URLs that verify your assertions -- I've never said that. Please don't imply I did. Just don't post a 5 page document in this talk space when it can easily be linked to. And it's not abusing my power if you fear I will revoke everything you write. If you look at my edits just now, I didn't revoke what you wrote. I can't be held responsible for your suspicions that I may in the future do something to you. I think if you ask around, you'll find I'm actually very careful about never using my admin powers unless it is blatantly necessary to combat vandalism. And please don't pretend I'm welcoming you here -- your comments have made it clear you've been around at least a little while. I'm not dealing with a user confused by this encyclopedia, I'm dealing with an editor who I believe is biasing an important article. I'm glad you're seeking compromise -- perhaps the issue is settled now? I do hope so. Thanks, Jwrosenzweig 19:43, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Well, the article as it exists makes no mention of The Surrealist Movement in the United States, which in my own opinion is unquestionably more significant than Wigdor and Lindall, but at any rate I think it should clearly be mentioned, as should be the fundamentally international character of the 1960s expansion. Yet mention of Wigdor and Lindall is not NPOV if it fails to state how controversial these characters have been in surrealism[3], if it does not indeed state that they have been accused, by surrealists, of being "false surrealists." --Daniel C. Boyer 19:02, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Dear Jwrosenzweig, Thank You! There is Fairness after ALL! PEACE!!!!

You are welcome. I hope this satisfies everyone. Jwrosenzweig 19:43, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)