Talk:Battle of Borodino

The largest battle in history?

Correction - The Battle of Leipzig was a much larger battle in numbers involved than Borodino, so i personally disagree with calling it "the greatest battle in history" (admitedly, it was, but a year later it was eclipsed by leipzig) However, the casulaties were greater here, but on the other hand, Leipzig is much more strategically important. As such, some sort of correction should be made to the opening paragraph - Warmaster 26/06/05

I cut the claim

and arguably the greatest battle in human history up to that date

since (a) anything is "arguable" and (b) I think this is going to be very hard to substantiate. There are a lot of older battles that are claimed to be larger (cf. Battle of Wagram, Battle of Red Cliffs, Battle of Plataea, Battle of Gaugamela). Of course, the older claims are likely to be exaggerated, but it would take a lot of effort to sort through the many claims and adjust them; so this kind of debate is best moved to its own article. In the case of naval battles, where there were similar claims, a separate page was created to handle the issue; see Largest naval battle in history. Gdr 12:23, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

How about "among the largest battles in human history up to that date"? Rl 15:19, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

The bloodiest battle in history?

So why do you keep deleting the sentence about the battle being reputed to be the bloodiest battle in human history up to that date? If you feel like it was not reputed to be such, please explain yourself and cite your sources. So far, your repeated unmotivated deletions should be interpreted as vandalism. --Ghirlandajo

I deleted it because (1) I see no evidence that the battle has such a reputation; and (2) even if it had such a reputation (among whom?) then the reputation would still be false. It's up to you to demonstrate that such a reputation exists, and that it is held widely enough to be worth discussing in this article. Gdr 15:58:02, 2005-08-15 (UTC)

Being far from my library, I still may recommend you to consult this. Google is wikipedian's best friend :) --Ghirlandajo 16:09, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

You've forgotten to exclude Wikipedia and its many mirrors from your search. Compare for example [1]. I see many claims that Borodino is one of the bloodiest battle of the Napoleonic Wars, which is certainly true, and some claims that it was the bloodiest single day of the Napoleonic Wars, which is possibly also true. I see few claims about the whole of history, and among those claims there is the usual confusion between "casualties" (i.e. killed, wounded, missing, and prisoners) and "deaths".

If the question is "bloodiest" (i.e. most killed) rather than "largest" (most troops) then there are many more candidates to consider, because battles that ended in a massacre can have larger death tolls while involving fewer troops. Possible examples to consider include Cannae, Marignano, Lepanto, Issus, Salamis, etc etc. Gdr 16:22:10, 2005-08-15 (UTC)

The google search found that "All historians agree that Borodino was the bloodiest battle since the introduction of gunpowder" - perhaps we should settle on this phrasing? --Ghirlandajo

The sentence you quote is from Regimental Losses In the American Civil War by William F. Fox, published in 1889 [2]. It may have been true of historians in 1889, but I don't think it is true now; see for example [3] which is based in part on Dupuy & Dupuy, The Encyclopedia of Military History, published in 1970.

I think a sentence beginining "One of the bloodiest battles..." or "The bloodiest day of the Napoleonic Wars..." would be fine. Gdr 16:22:10, 2005-08-15 (UTC)

It seems to me, like User:Philip Baird Shearer in the past, you strive to downplay Russia's decisive role in the victory over Napoleon and to swell up certain events of lesser importance enormously hyped up by the British imperial historiography, notably the Battle of Trafalgar and the Peninsula War. --Ghirlandajo

Well apparently it was the largest/bloodiest battle of the 19th century. Shouldn't that figure in the article? Kazak 03:40, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Seconded. --Ghirlandajo 12:22, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

It seems a shame to go over this issue again. Borodino was not the largest battle of the 19th century, nor the bloodiest (compare Battle of Leipzig, Third Battle of Nanking). It was, however, probably the bloodiest single day of the Napoleonic Wars, and this is prominently mentioned in the opening paragraphs. Comparisons with other bloody days are given in the "Statistical discussion" section. Gdr 21:03, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

History revisionists

I am sorry, I am a newcomer here, but I feel that this article has anti-Russian bias. My feeling is based on following observations. 1) The author pretends to follow "most recent" developments, referring to unspecified "historians" in "The opposing armies" section. The controversial number 155 thousands Russian troops is put into the summary table as an established fact. It should be contrasted to the French article [4], German article [5] in Wikipedia. It should be compared also to the information on the provided link (General description of the battle, Eight Attacks on Bagration Fleches), where it reads clearly " Napoleon's 130,000 Against Kutuzov's 120,000 Men." In any case, Russian militia which supposedly stood behind the lines (10 km behind?) could not be equalled to elite Young Guard at Napoleon's disposal, contrary to implications by the author. 2) The author pretending to follow most recent developments seems to ignore the overall consensus, what concerns the 'background' paragraph. Most historians agree that Barclay's tactics was not a preconsidered tactics of the scorched earth. His retreat before the rapidly advancing Grande Armee of some 600 thousand regular troops had no real alternative. Kutusov's preparations of Borodino defenses were particularly criticized by Klausewitz. 3) The author should be careful with relying on Polish historian who apparently failed to be impartial in describing Napoleon's "second Polish campaign". Otherwise the Wikipedia readers will consume the products of history revisionists. Regards, dariush 12:58, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Where does Clausewitz criticize Kutusov's preparations at Borodino? I can't find any mention of Kutusov or his preparations in On War. Gdr 14:13:35, 2005-09-11 (UTC)

The outcome

The point that the previous writer made about numbers is correct; virtually all of the sources I have seen state that the French and their allies outnumbered the Russians (this was, in fact, the first time I have ever heard the contrary position).

However, I am not so sure about anti-Russian bias. My main indicator is the listing of the battle as a 'draw,' a clearly ridiculous assertion. Most authorities agree that Russian casualties were 45,000 compared to about 30,000 for the French. Furthermore, by the time the battle ended, the Russians had been thrown back roughly 1,700 yards from their original positions, and to prevent more damage the Russians retreated a further 1,000 yards, completely fleeing the sector by the next day and leaving the way open for Napoleon to march on Moscow. Borodino, Utitsa, the Fleches, and the Great Redoubt all fell to the French and their allies. In light of what I've already mentioned, and considering the high morale of Russian troops and the ultimate objective of safeguarding Moscow, there is no rational basis upon which to call this battle a draw. One would have to be a Russian nationalist or plainly dishonest to hold such an opinion. I am going to change the result to 'French victory,' and since I saw meddling with this decision before, I humbly request that there be no more interference. --User:UberCryxic

Copied from User_talk:Ghirlandajo

I wrote a previous message but for some reason it didn't show.

I do not want a conflict, and I hope I can remain to contribute to wikipedia as I think I would be beneficial.

The dispute you mentioned was largely the work of Russian historians; in fact, they have always scrutinized what happened at Borodino and many have come to opinions like 'draw' or Kutuzov was a great general, and so on. Western scholars largely agree that the French won the battle. All the books which I have on the subject treat the battle as a French victory (as in they explicitly mention a victory for Napoleon), however Pyrrhic. If we judge the battle on its own merits, and are not influenced by the wider campaign which ended disastrously (which is where I think the real problem is; it's so difficult to view this disaster for the Russian army as anything other than a draw or victory in light of what happened to the French in general) for Napoleon, then we can see a French victory. By the end of the fight, the Russian army was in a pitiful state, and even the boastful Kutuzov, who for some reason kept insisting he'd won hours after the fight (more for pomp and show), had to order a retreat.

Perhaps third party mediation is needed here, since I insist the French were victorious as much as you do that it was a draw. But either way, I just want you to know I am not 'warring' or anything, nor do I have any nationalistic aspirations (I'm from Albania, never been to France). I love military history and I want to set the record straight.

Thank you --User:UberCryxic

It's great that your aim is not revert warring. I moved your comments to Talk:Battle of Borodino where more editors can see them. IMHO the article has a clear pro-French bias. The battle had gave Napoleon no clear advantage, as he failed to annihilate the Russian army, as was his intention, and was constrained to follow it further away from his power base in Poland, which eventually resulted in a catastrophe for him. I checked Britannica for a NPOV source; it doesn't speculate which victory it was noticing that "Although the Russian army was badly mauled, it survived to fight again and, in the end, drove Napoleon out of Russia". I am going ask for a third opinion on the subject.--Ghirla | talk 16:55, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

The wikipedia article that discusses the battle is woefully uncultivated, and if one were to read it they would actually gain the impression that it was a draw. For example, it leaves the dangerous impression that the Russians had control of the 'Raevsky Redoubt' (bias? You bet) at the end and merely retreated, allowing the French to occupy it. But this is far from the truth; the French evicted the Russians from the Redoubt by brutal force, courtesy of a murderous (mostly) cavalry charge. That's what ended the battle.

So yeah, going by this wikipedia article then the label of 'draw' is fair, but that means that the article itself needs to be fixed. --User:UberCryxic

"..he failed to annihilate the Russian army.."

"eventually resulted in a catastrophe for him."

See, this is what I meant; if you keep analyzing the Battle of Borodino that way, then yeah you are right, there's no way it was a French victory. However, when we talk about the battle, I am under the impression that we are talking about the battle and the battle only, not what happened before or afterwards.

If you look at just what happened on the field of Borodino, then you'll see that the French outdid the Russians on the day. They did not annihilate them, true, but is that suddenly the requirement for adjudicating victory on wikipedia? There are plenty of battles here that say "[Enter nation] victory" where there was no catastrophe in either side.

Andrew Uffindell writes, "Napoleon had won the battle, but indecisively at an horrendous cost." The statement stands on its own.

Now, let me again point out that the damage was greater for the Russian army than for the French (just look at the numbers). Also, there was a 'minor' engagement at the Schevardino Redoubt on the 5th where the Russians lost 6,000 men and three guns.

"Although the Russian army was badly mauled, it survived to fight again and, in the end, drove Napoleon out of Russia".

This is a ridiculous statement; the French defeated the Russians in every set-piece engagement except one (and that was one was very minor). The scorching summer and dreadful winter, along with poor infrastructure and a hostile Russian population had far more to do with the French disaster rather than any heroics of the Russian army. The Russian army merely hurried the flanks of the French, but whenever they attempted a stop, they were either bypassed (ie. Ney) or thoroughly routed (ie. Krasnoe, where 16,000 Imperial Guardsmen mauled a Russian army of 35,000). But when the retreat started the damage had already been done, and it definitely had not been done by the Russian army. Were it not for the stupidity of his brother Jerome (who would screw up spectacularly at Waterloo as well) early in the campaign, the Russians would've been thrashed way before Borodino.

Furthermore, if we can for one moment move past the Russian propaganda and futile nostalgia about the 'Great Patriotic War,' we'll find that war damaged Russia almost as much as it did France. Russian losses were catastrophic (I've seen as low as 250,000 and as high as more than what Napoleon lost) and Moscow lay in ruins.--User:UberCryxic

I concur with your arguments that we should distinguish between the battle's immediate outcome and its eventual result. If we look at the matter from the point of view of military science, the victory could have been claimed by Napoleon. If we look at the facts that he achieved none of his goals and the battle contributed to his eventual defeat and downfall, then the battle was won by the Russians. So, a draw. I'm alarmed that you give so much credit to the old-fashioned theories of Russian Winter, however. The war waged on the Russian territory was of course detrimental to the national economy, but when you go on to state that Naopleon's 1812 campaign was a Russian failure, it demonstrates your unrestrained puerile enthusiasm for Napoleon's persona and disregard of stubborn facts. --Ghirla | talk 17:26, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Reply

In my previous comments I mentioned the "scorching summer and dreadful winter," so I was not being exclusive. I'm not sure what you mean by "theories of Russian winter," but I am well aware that over half of Napoleon's army died in the summer and that the winter has long dominated popular view of the campaign. That admitted, however, the winter was catastrophic in the final toll it took, and I don't think I have to provide evidence of this.

Regardless, the objective of that paragraph was to show that the French didn't actually have trouble beating the Russian army; they'd been doing it effectively since 1799. While they were a factor in ultimate victory, they did not single-handedly, as your Britanica article ostensibly claimed, "[drive] Napoleon out of Russia." The record shows that by far the vast majority of the Grand Army died from causes unrelated to Russian regular troops, particularly weather, a hostile population, and horrendous infrastructure which ruined Napoleon's supply system, leading to disease and starvation in the summer (and practically the elimination of all horses, which would be needed so desperately in the 1813 campaign). The Grand Army lost this campaign that summer, and as you can see, the Russian army had nothing to do with it. In fact, in line with Barclay's strategy, the Russians were retreating (quite wisely, might I add). Had they fought the French in the early stages, as some of the senior commanders wanted to do, they would've been annihilated.

Yes, and the Wehrmacht was destroyed by the French, Anglo-Americans and extraterrestrials. Please keep your nationalist mythology at bay. --Ghirla | talk 18:50, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I actually didn't say that the 1812 campaign was a Russian failure. What I said was that that "war damaged Russia almost as much as it did France." Symbolically, the 1812 campaign was legendary and laid the roots for Napoleon's eventual downfall. That can't be denied. In the interest of wikipedia fairness and equity, however, I mentioned that the Russians suffered severely from this conflict and that fact is barely covered in Russian history.

Anyway, the battle itself (again, strictly the battle) did not contribute much to Napoleon's eventual fall (the campaign did), as in order for that to happen he would've had to be reversed and forced to march to the Niemen. Although, what one could argue, in one of those weird historical twists, is that because Napoleon won and could march on Moscow, he wasted precious time in the smouldering Russian capital and decided to retreat too late to save most of the men he still had left. From that angle, Borodino looks a lot more impressive, but then we'd be stretching a few things.

On that note, I will offer a compromise. Calling the battle a draw would be a serious disservice, so I propose that we simply say "Marginal French victory," having seen that first word in some other descriptions of battle results.--User:UberCryxic 17:15, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

It's OK with me but I would like to know what other editors think. --Ghirla | talk 18:50, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Nationalist mythology? Why would you say something so blatantly impertinent and fallacious, especially when I told you I wasn't French? I am not mythologizing. What I said was the truth; the French had been beating the Russians pretty badly since 1799. Refer to the Second Battle of Zurich (1799), the Battle of Austerlitz (1805), and the Battle of Friedland (1807) as some of the prime examples. As a good student of Russian history, you would probably know that Zurich in 1799 tarnished Suvorov's hitherto impeccable reputation, even though he himself was not directly implicated in the engagements. It's not a matter of nationalism, and it's not like the French were beating just the Russians; during this time (the first two coalitions), they were defeating the Austrians, the British, the Russians, the Spaniards, the Dutch, and pretty much anyone who could raise arms against them. The dynamic sociopolitical forces unleashed by the Revolution were unequalled in European history, so it was no surprise French armies were so successful for about two decades. Again, I reiterate because I feel I must make this point explicitly clear, there is no nationalism going on here, just a regurgitation of an often-talked about history.

The charge of nationalism is silly as I am Albanian (I already told you my nationality, so it's infuriating for you to suggest I'm being a French nationalist) and have no particular ties to the French nation or French culture. I'm a student of military history and it appears on these points that I've been reading a little more than you. If you have to use such despiccable treachery to make your point, I am really worried about the other articles that you monitor on wikipedia.--User:UberCryxic 17:15, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Picture

Most pictures of battles on wikipedia have the victor in the main frame, so I'd appreciate it if you left the one I put up alone.

First of all, Napoleon was not a victor but a loser in this battle, see above. Secondly, the battle was one of the least successful in his career; it was more the battle of peoples than personalities as per Tolstoy. Thirdly, the copyright status of your picture has not been specified: who painted it? when? what is the title? These concerns are valid, so please address them. --Ghirla | talk 18:09, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Your personal proclivities aside, we decided to leave it at marginal French victory, so Napoleon won. Please do not mention Tolstoy when talking about Napoleon; War and Peace is my favorite novel, but Tolstoy got just about everything wrong in his 'historical' analysis. Just to get to the point, we shouldn't him as a guide for history. Listening to Tolstoy you'd think Kutuzov was a great general. Your third concern is the most valid one, and even if I didn't find the name of the painter, I know the picture can be distributed publicly. I specified the status of the picture when I uploaded it in wikipedia commons. I will look into other information as soon as I can. And if I find it, what will you do about that picture being in the main frame?--User:UberCryxic 17:15, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I've found the information: Vasily Vereshchagin. Napoleon I on the Borodino Hights. 1897. Oil on canvas.--User:UberCryxic 17:15, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

RfC

The question at RfC is whether Napoleon won or lost this battle. Looking at the talk page and the article itself, this looks like one part of a larger dispute. There does seem to be some bias in the article. I'm not sure if this bias is intentional. The opening paragraph fails to name the Russian general. Later when the article does introduce Kutuzov it calls him a new commander. This is misleading: he was a veteran returning from retirement.

There's some good material here on the talk page that could fill out the article. Who won? What was the significance of this battle in the larger picture of the 1812 campaign? From the very narrow definition of who held the field and who retreated, I'd have to chalk this up to the French. It's listed as a French victory on Napoleon's tomb in Paris. That said, it was far from a decisive victory. It's hard to divorce this from the surrounding campaign and the article doesn't really need to treat this in a vacuum. Just list the reasons why each side claims victory and include a separate section for context. Regards, Durova 00:08, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

The rule of thumb to decide the victor is to see who advanced and who retreated after the battle. The French advanced. The other clue we can get is who lost more. Russians seem to have lost more although numbers are not solid. So, based on this "Marginal French victory" could be used. OTOH, the battle and its concequences were a catastrophe for the French. A Pyrrhic victory term seems very much applicable. So, we can say "inconclusive", if you ask me. --Irpen 00:40, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I think it natural that the French would obviously chalk Borodino as a victory to them, but to me that is just one point of view. Everything I have ever heard or read about it, it was so devastating, that it could hardly be even called a "victory". I agree with Irpen that it was pyrrhic. So have it a victory if you will, but at what costs? the word victory must have sounded like a joke even to Napoleon. Gryffindor 13:31, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

For me it was a draw. Simply because Napoleon didn't reach his goal to destroy the main Russian forces in a single decisive battle. The retreat of the Russians from Borodino was absolutely voluntarily and controlled. They just continued their strategy to bait Napoleon further into the Russian territory, making his supply routes longer and thus more vulnerable. The casualties in the battle were comparable and the tactical situation didn't change at all, compared to the eve of the battle. Voyevoda 02:57, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I think the point of NPOV is to present both arguments to the article readers. Durova 16:07, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I must make some points here in the interest of equity. First off I'll respond to Voyevoda. Speaking of goals, it would be nice to recognize what that of the Russians was: preventing the fall of Moscow. The reason why Alexander and much of the ultra-nationalist Russian nobility disliked, even hated, Barclay was because they perceived him as a foreigner feeding 'Mother Russia' through Napoleon's jaws. Most did not approve of his defensive strategy, even though it almost certainly saved the Russian army from catastrophe. Worried by a political fallout, Alexander placed the trusted Kutuzov as commander of the Russian armies. When the article says the 'new Russian commander,' that's what it means (this is to Durova). It doesn't intend to belittle Kutuzov or anything. Anyway, the Russian goal was to prevent Moscow from being captured and they failed. Napoleon's goal was to destroy the Russian army and bring Alexander to the peace table, and he failed too. The Russian retreat from Borodino was voluntary, but I'm afraid you're arguing behind semantics a little. The Russian army was in a desparate state after the battle (even worse than the French); it could not possibly have stood to block Napoleon's advance. They did not retreat because it was their strategy, since by this point they wanted to save Moscow, they fell back because they were no in no position to fight a second large battle. The Russian strategy which you've described was actually carried out, again, by the real hero of 1812: Barclay. Once Napoleon took Smolensk and headed east almost everything was done to preclude the fall of Moscow, but seeing as the Russian army was still intact, there was no reason for Alexander to seek for peace.

Comment I understand this much about Kutuzov because I come to the article with background knowledge. A reader without that knowledge wouldn't infer his veteran status from the version I read. Durova 21:43, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Once again, judging the battle on its own merits, it must be recognized as a French victory. Those talking about anti-Russian bias should look at the section 'battle' for a moment. The description given does elicit a feeling of inconclusiveness; it doesn't mention at all that the French stormed and captured the Great Redoubt, the Fleches, and the Semionovoskaya, albeit at terrible cost and after repeatedly failed charges. User:UberCryxic

You still didn't explain why if both sides don't reach their goals, it must be declared as a victory of one side. Moreover, I wonder whether your conviction of Russians being in a "desperate state" and unable to fight another battle is based on solid documented knowledge or mainstream western prejudices. Voyevoda 19:12, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

The request in your first sentence was explained in my previous comments; when we talk about the goals of each respective side in this conflict, we have to keep in mind they are not consigned to one individual battle. The Russians drove Napoleon out even with Borodino, and Napoleon could still have stabilized the situation by withdrawing to Smolensk after Borodino. That Borodino did not satisfy the overall objectives of either side, however, does not mean that there was no victor. As I wrote before, many wikipedia battle articles feature victory statements even though the actual fighting produced a quasi-stalemate equivalent to, but not exactly like, Borodino. In light of this, why should I not call Borodino what it was, a French victory? The battle itself ended when the French finally took the Great Redoubt for good, and by that point, as has been repeatedly mentioned, the French held all the other major positions as well. Militarily, that is a victory. Tactically, in light of heavier Russian casualties and the aforementioned situation in the battlefield, it was also a French victory. From that point of view, I'd be moderately comfortable with changing the result to "French tactical victory" (many wiki articles have this phrase).

I don't mean or want to get nasty, but when it comes to prejudices and misconceptions about the battle and the campaign as a whole, the Russians are far more at fault than Westerners. Admittedly, however, both sides share the blame. I'd rather not get into this particular side of the subject as I'm afraid it would arouse unhelpful feelings, but if you feel we have to, then I'll reluctantly follow. The "desparate state" that the Russian army found itself in after the battle mostly involved the excessively tired soldiers. Both sides were exhausted, hence why the French didn't pursue after the initial Russian retreat from the frontline positions. Had Napoleon sent the Imperial Guard at this time, the entire Russian army might well have fled without a fight, not on account of cowardice or anything like that, but for the simple reason that they were too spent to continue fighting. There are many reports of soldiers on both sides simply falling on the ground following the suspension of the battle. Keep in mind that before this battle both sides had completed herculean feats of marching, Napoleon to position himself centrally between the two main Russian armies, and those two armies trying to escape from him. As for documented evidence, I know that Kutuzov sent Colonel Toll to inspect the army following the battle, and the latter reported huge losses and low levels of ammunition (this is a Russian source, so you can't claim bias). While Kutuzov boasted about a 'great victory' to the Czar, the reality of the situation forced him to order a retreat and abandon Moscow. The Russians simply could not fight anymore at that instant and needed time to recuperate. Essentially, that's what I mean by the statement, "desparate state."--User:UberCryxic

Add to the above that both sides were not only overworked and sleep deprived, but dehydrated. A substantial number of French soldiers died on the journey to Borodino. From what I understand, Russian casualties throughout the campaign were nearly as severe. Durova 21:50, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Someone changed the result to draw again. Can we please stop making those impulsive decisions? If you want to change the result, discuss it here first and see what the 'consensus' is. --User:UberCryxic

Inconclusive is a weasel word :-) Who opposes "Pyrrhic victory"? And to those who oppose calling it a victory: didn't Napolean end up in Moscow? Didn't the Russians want to keep him out? He may have lost the war at Borodino but he definitely won the battle. As Pyrrhus said (or maybe didn't say): "Another victory like this and we're finished." In fact the term seems to have been made for this battle. Piet 16:42, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

It seems likely that no short description of the outcome will please everyone, so maybe "see text" would be the right thing to use. Gdr 17:06, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Seconded. --Ghirla | talk 17:21, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. "Disputed" might work. I'd have to object to calling this a Pyrrhic victory. A brief quote on that point: For he had lost a great part of the forces he brought with him, and almost all his particular friends and principal commanders. This didn't happen on the battlefield at Borodino. Napoleon still had a substantial force when his army entered Moscow. Durova 08:51, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

It's quite interesting to check the French version of Wikipedia here. It calls the battle of the Moskowa (=Borodino) a French victory. It calls the battle of Maloyaroslavets a French victory. It even shies away from calling the Bérézina a Russian victory. Non, c'est une Victoire de Mikhaïl Koutouzov. However, if we have a look at the French article on the victor of the Bérézina (obviously, revisionists have not been at work on that one yet), what is said there about Borodino? "Une exception : de la bataille de la Moskova, à l'issue incertaine." Uncertain outcome, even today. Piet, when you say the Russians wanted to keep Napoleon out of Moscow, you forgot to take into consideration what Napoleon wanted. His tactics on the day can only be explained by the fact that his desire was not to neter Moscow, but to annihilate the Russian army. Which he failed to do. I vote for indecisive. Or "read the article". --pgp 10:35, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree that if there was a victor it would be the French, but there victory was exremely marginal. Although the French were in control of the field at the end of the battle, the russians retreated in good order and really the French accomplished none of their real objectives. I'm changing the result to nominal French victory.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 01:26, 23 March 2006 (UTC)