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Astronomical catalogue

A few weeks ago while disambiguating some links, I ran across and a set of pages each one about a ring of saturn (A Ring, B Ring, D Ring, etc.) I merged them, but little did I know that I had stumbled into an astronomical catalog: List of geological features on Mercury, List of craters on Mercury, List of periodic comets, List of non-periodic comets, List of craters on Mars, List of features on Phobos and Deimos, List of geological features on 433 Eros, List of geological features on 243 Ida and Dactyl, Meanings of asteroid names (1-500), List of asteroids named after places, and on and on it goes (for some more see Category:Surface feature nomenclature of solar system bodies but I don't know if there's a "top level" page). As lists maybe they aren't so bad -- but what really distubs me is all the redlinks on each page which suggests that more pages are coming "to fill it out". This all seems to me to run afoul of Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. What do you all think? Ewlyahoocom 14:58, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I can't speak for all the pages you mention, but I am responsible for creating the ones about geological features on moons and asteroids. Each is designed to list the named geological features on the relevant body, and provide a link to the person, place or mythological figure that it is named after. Personally, it is the latter that I am interested in, so I haven't bothered creating articles for each feature. However, some planetary geologists have begun this work - see, in particular List of geological features on Enceladus, which some users have used to create admirably detailed and useful articles for every named feature on this fascinating and extremely unusual moon. Furthermore, check out the work done by another user: List of craters on the Moon and his detailed, scholarly, referenced articles on each crater, e.g. Aristarchus (crater).

Is all of this, pointless, uninteresting information? Only if you're bored by astronomy and planetary geology. If you're actually interested in the subject, it's extremely useful and valuable. You seem to be operating from the perspective 'I personally find this unimportant, therefore it must go.' Am I right? If so, may I request deletion of the pages on Desperate Housewives? Thanks. The Singing Badger 16:21, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

But why can't the information on those lists be included in the articles about their respective moons, asteroids, or planets? What else is there to say about Mercury, for instance, if not describing its features? There's not a lot of information on its history, local customs, religions, or GDP. ;)

Gee, why not have every continent and species and feature of the planet Earth included on the Earth page! You're so provincial and it makes me glad to be of Martian heritage. Why even have an "Earth" page when "Harmless" is more than enough? Heptapod 05:19, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it would be better to make one big list of namesakes, listing everyone who has an astronomical feature named after him or her. Kafziel 16:34, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Bad idea - there are tens of thousands of these features, far to many for one list which is why we have topical lists to collect them into. If you want to know what we cann find to talk about in the Mercury article, take a look: Mercury (planet). I think there is plenty there. And we even have an entire article on the Geology of Mercury already. Rmhermen 16:48, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

That was kind of a rhetorical question. My point is that because there are tens of thousands of things in space named after people, they can't all be notable enough for inclusion here. Every guy who ever discovered a rock has named it after himself; some of the people on the lists are not particularly notable for anything except that they have something named after them, and the something that's named after them is only notable because it's named after somebody. The people who are actually notable have their own articles and don't need a list of craters on Mercury for their articles to be found. I agree with Ewlyahoocom that this pushes the boundaries of "indiscriminate information". Kafziel 17:39, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

...may I request deletion of the pages on "Desperate Housewives"? Of course you can. I haven't looked at the pages you mention; for sure I'd support a merge if we have more than a couple of 'em. I'd request a merger of these astronomical pages, but my experience with Rings of Saturn suggests it'd be a huge amount of work. May I ask: were these pages added by hand? or uploaded with automated tools? Ewlyahoocom 17:34, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I expect we have a article for each episode, seems to be the way of things. As for merging the astronomy stuff - many of the separate lists are each longer the suggested maximum, not to mention the content of each article on each item in the list. I doubt you will gain much support for such massive merged articles. Rmhermen 17:53, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we do. See List of Desperate Housewives episodes. Rmhermen 17:57, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

So the best way to provide this info is to break the entries out into hundreds of thousands of pages like these: ...322 Phaeo... 329 Svea... 521 Brixia... 977 Philippa... 987 Wallia...; ...56P/Slaughter-Burnham... 88P/Howell... 98P/Takamizawa... 119P/Parker-Hartley... 152P/Helin-Lawrence... 159P/LONEOS...? (I must say, I'm a lot less enthusased about having one million articles now that I know 200,000+ of them are about "snowballs and rocks" -- no offense intended!) Ewlyahoocom 18:21, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Those articles are hardly a thrilling read, but in each one the table on the right gives lots of information about the body concerned. Yes, it would be nice if that information could be given in one huge table on one page covering all asteroids and comets; however, there's too much data for such a table to fit on the screen; it would be too wide. So what we need is a list of asteroids or comets that provides links to longer articles giving more detailed information. Which is what we have. Rejoice. The Singing Badger 18:37, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

There are not 200,000 articles on individual asteroids. There are some thousands, probably less than 10,000. Most of the asteroids on the lists are not linked, much less written about. That is one of the main uses of lists - to collect all items, even ones which don't have or won't have articles. Rmhermen 19:37, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

...it would be nice if that information could be given in one huge table on one page... No, it would be nice if that information could be contained in a database where it'd be searchable and sortable and infinitely more useful and manageable. This is what you've done: taken a database; spread it out into umpteen thousand pages; converted it to wikitext, expanding its space requirements 5 or 10 fold, not counting change history; and stored back in a database, only in a much less useful way. I'll ask again: how many articles are we talking about here? What are the "top level" pages to this project? And finally, how hard would it be to move to Wikisource? Ewlyahoocom 08:38, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, there are times when a full-on list can be more efficient, especially when one is browsing rather than searching for a specific object. But anyway, to answer your questions, there is no unified 'project' as such, but the pages List of asteroids and Geological features of the Solar System are 'top level' pages. You can count the articles yourself ;). If they were shifted to Wikisource the wikilinks in the articles would presumably need to be changed, although I expect it could be done in an automated way. I must stress here that I'm not responsible for creating or managing the asteroid lists, so I'd recommend getting in touch with their main users to bring them into this discussion. The Singing Badger 14:15, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Do we have any idea of how many pages we're even talking about? The set of pages List of asteroids/1–1000 ... List of asteroids/119001–120000 alone makes me a little nervous (complete(?) list at List of asteroids). Ewlyahoocom 17:31, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Kafziel, you've got it the wrong way round. The list of craters on Mercury is not intended to help people find articles on famous people. It is intended to help people find out who the craters on Mercury are named are and then find out about them. The solution you have offered - "make one big list of namesakes, listing everyone who has an astronomical feature named after him or her" would not be any help in this regard. The Singing Badger 17:56, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Also your quoted style guide undermines your argument. See "indiscriminate information": "Wikipedia also includes reference tables and tabular information for quick reference." Rmhermen 17:59, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

The Singing Badger said that his interest in the list is not the features themselves, but the people they're named after. The "list of all the people things are named after" wasn't an actual suggestion, it was to illustrate how insane it would be to try to list all that stuff. Earth is a planet, too. Perhaps we should also have a list of every feature on the Earth that is named after a person?

And I don't see how the style guide undermines my argument; this is certainly an example of loosely associated topics—they have nothing to do with each other except that they are on the same planet. Kafziel 18:05, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

My explanation of my personal reason for creating the tables has nothing to do with the purpose for which they are most useful (finding out what a geological feature is named after). On your second point, there are very few named features on other planets and moons, so such lists are perfectly do-able (and indeed, have all been done). Furthermore, your protest that they are "loosely associated topics—they have nothing to do with each other except that they are on the same planet" is bizarre - planetary geology is precisely the study of features that are on the same planet!! The Singing Badger 18:17, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Clearly, from the sheer number of tremendously long list pages related to the topic, there are not "very few" named features on other planets and moons (or numbered, if you prefer, but a number is still a name). There are thousands and thousands of them. Astrogeology is not the study of what features are named after which people, which that list is. And the Astrgeology page doesn't attempt to list every one. It doesn't even attempt to list all the other pages that do attempt to list every one. You're comparing apples and oranges. Kafziel 18:29, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I meant few in comparison to Earth: in other words, a manageable number. There are thousands of cities in Iowa, but that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't use Wikipedia to compile useful directories of them. If you think there should be more content in the lists, be my guest, start adding some. I see these pages as a starting point: as evidence that there such pages can ultimately produce great work, I encourage you again to consult the superb List of craters on the Moon and the articles it links to, to see the amount of work that people interested in this subject are prepared to do, and how pages like these can be a basis for the creation of an excellent resource. The Singing Badger 22:32, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Rmhermen, are you saying that you consider wading through the approx. 120 pages starting with List of asteroids/1–1000 is somehow a "quick" reference? Ewlyahoocom 18:11, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Ewlyahoocom, the study of asteroids is an ever-growing discipline in modern astronomy. You seem to assume that asteroids are just a bunch of identical bits of rock; a quick scan of minor planet will dissuade you of that notion. Each presents its own fascinating puzzles. Yes, at the moment we have a list of red links. But asteroids are arranged by number and anyone wishing to methodically check through a selection of asteroid articles may need these lists in order to do so. It might seem preferable to simply delete from the lists any asteroid that doesn't have an article yet, leaving only those that do. However, the problem is that if anyone creates an article but doesn't add the asteroid to the list, someone using the list wouldn't know it was there. At the moment, the blue links stand out from the red links in a rather helpful way. And I really don't think this takes up too much Wikipedia space, I'm sure there's a lot more on Pokemon, a subject far less important than astronomy. :) The Singing Badger 18:21, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Should these lists get a problem here, don't forget they could readily go on Wikisource, which exists to house data of this kind. Its easy enough to make links to and from WP as required. Apwoolrich 18:54, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Wikisource might not want it. A parenthetical note has recently been added to Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files and now reads in part Complete copies of primary sources (but not mathematical tables, astronomical tables, or source code) should go into Wikisource. I'm seeking clarification, it may only be talking about ephemerides (tables of the precalculated positions of the Sun, Moon, etc.) Ewlyahoocom 05:08, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Wikisource last fall agreed to allow scientific and mathematical reference material. Basically, we take tables of information, tables of numbers, constants, etc. If this stuff is deleted from Wikipedia, it will be taken by Wikisource.—Zhaladshar ^(Talk) 15:51, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I have just corrected the wrong information about Wikisource in Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files Apwoolrich 16:28, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, my take on the asteroid list is that, for the moment at least, only a few hundred of these are probably of particular astronomical interest beyond their orbital elements and some basic classification data. But, personally, I'd consider notable any asteroid that is in the low triple digits; had a published paper; been visited or mapped in detail; is a likely Earth-crosser or has a low delta-V, or has some notable geologic or orbital aspect. :) — RJH 16:12, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

P.S. The problem I find with red links is that if you go in and remove them, somebody else will come along and put them back. I'm not sure what you do about that. — RJH 17:21, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Move to wikisource?

So I ask the main editors: are you willing to move these pages/have these pages moved to Wikisource? (I had wrongly assumed that The Singing Badger was the project leader. I've since invited the 2 or 3 other editors that seem to have had a hand in creating these lists and pages but if I've missed anyone please invite them to this discussion.) Ewlyahoocom 08:06, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Object — Please clarify what you mean by "these pages"? Do you specifically mean all of the asteroid pages? In that case yes I would object quite strongly. But if you just mean those asteroid pages that contain only emphemeris data and have no possibility of being expanded into an article the near future, then I'd be a little more neutral. My complaint then would be that you might lose the tie-ins to the asteroid explorers. — RJH 22:58, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I personally would have no objection provided that (a) usability will not be impaired (i.e. that wikilinks between Wikipedia and Wikisource and vice versa will be simple and direct) and (b) since there is no 'project' or 'project leader', this should not be done suddenly; plenty of notice should be given on the talk pages of the lists involved, requesting interested parties to discuss the matter here.

Also, Ewlyahoocom, could you put together an exact list (!) of the pages (or at least the top-level pages) that you wish to put on Wikisource, so that we know precisely what we're talking about. Some may be more suited than others.

By the way, I apologise if my tone was rather rude in the discussion above; I thought you were advocating deletion of the pages, rather than relocation. The Singing Badger 15:39, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

What exactly are the pages you want to move? Lists? Looking at Wikisource:What_Wikisource_includes I see this exclusion:

Wikisource, in its effort to collect source texts, often has to deal with the issue of lists. As almost any list is not itself a source text, Wikisource policy is to remove any list from its database, the reason being that lists are user-compiled and heretofore unpublished works.

That does not sound like those would be welcome there. If you propose entries like 152P/Helin-Lawrence as going to Wikisource, I do not see how that would fly either, since they would only accept a source like a database, I think. Are you sure you are not actually proposing to delete these articles? Awolf002 14:10, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

NASA or somebody must have these lists as well. It's not just an arbitrary listing. If that's the case, then the official list is not "user-compiled" and Wikisource is the place for it. Kafziel 14:36, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Although I think putting all this data into any wiki is a bit misguided (a purpose built system linking an astronomical database and a wiki would be much more appropriate), a lot of work seems to have gone into the compilation of these pages and I can respect that. The above comments by Apwoolrich and Zhaladshar (users far more familiar with Wikisource than I) have indicated that Wikisource would accept them.

As for a list of which pages should be moved, I'm currently working on one, or rather the heuristics to create a list (start with the set of pages that transclude some certain templates, then eliminate those which could be encyclopedic). I suspect, however, that any list I can create will be criticised for being both too inclusive (e.g. differing opinions on what is encyclopedic) and too exclusive (i.e. the relocated project may be considered by some to be "incomplete"). Ewlyahoocom 15:26, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I still oppose moving these types of pages at all. Rmhermen 23:04, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I strongly object to the move to Wikisource. Although I have not created or even worked on any of the asteroid articles, I do work on similarly "obscure" (whatever that means) articles. Is Wikipedia really being harmed in some way by having information about mountains on the Moon? This is all factual, verifiable, information that is, as mentioned above, arguably of more importance (especially in the long run) than actors, obscure movies, or types of robots in a comic book series (not that I am advocating the removal of those...well, maybe the robots). (I admit that I am shifting attention here) We have articles for mountains, and even minor hills, on the Earth. Numerous slippery slope arguments could be given that might suggest in particularly pessimistic cases that no article is safe from removal.

There is really no central repository that even could contain as much information on astronomical objects as Wikipedia: not NASA, not SIMBAD, and not even Wikisource. NASA does not even have a comprehensive database of minor planets (AFAIK). SIMBAD and Wikisource, although they could have information about large numbers of these objects, do not have narrative information about history, observation, research, etc. Furthermore, Wikipedia can properly explain data disagreements and include sources and links (which are absent in a surprisingly high number of online compilations). Ideally, I think every article would contain information that cannot simply be put in a database (except in a sort of "notes" field) (this is a good place for a counterargument—this is an unobtainable goal).

This information does not ordinarily have some of the problems that other articles do. Many articles on astronomical objects are almost inherently NPOV by virtue of being the subject of scientific analysis. Sources are conveniently searched (if one knows where they are), as many papers and databases are available online for no charge. Finishing with a cliché (in this sort of discussion at least), Wikipedia is not paper. Ardric47 18:12, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

"although they could have information about large numbers of these objects, do not have narrative information about history, observation, research, etc."

That's our point. Neither do 99.99% of the items on these lists. An article that has some content is one thing. A list of red links (links that no one has any real hope of ever creating quality articles for) is another thing completely.

Another thing - are you saying that no one has records of asteroids as comprehensive as the ones on wikipedia? If that's the case (which seems like one of the most absurd things I've ever heard), then what are the sources for these lists? Are editors just making these numbers up? Where are they getting them from? Wherever they're getting them from, those are the media that should be on wikisource. Kafziel 18:27, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I do not think that is the situation at all. I think most editors do provide you with the source of the data as is required. What I read (and agree with) is that there is no single source where you can find the general info on an asteroid or comet or crater (etc) and background info on the eponym or the discoverer(s). That seems a unique strength of WP we should not throw away. Awolf002 19:41, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think anybody is advocating throwing it away. We're suggesting putting the source materials (however many there may be) on wikisource. That will maintain a central point from which to draw the information. As meaningful articles are created, they can return to wikipedia one by one. Kafziel 19:48, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I think that is a terrible precedent and an unworkable idea. Articles cannot be developed on Wikisource and then moved back here. If you are looking for something to trim - for whatever your reasons may be- why not start with Pokemon, TV episodes, minor literary characters, etc. Wikipedia does not discourage lists anyway and so far it seems that your argument would apply to any list or almanac type material. Rmhermen 21:39, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Right, just to clarify, I meant what Awolf002 is saying. Regarding the lists of links that are mostly red, what constitutes a quality article? Ardric47 00:06, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't discourage list which have red lists but does discourage linking items in lists which should not have articles. Notice how the lists of asteroids do not link names where too little information is known to write an appropriate article. I, myself, had to ask why some names were in italics and that is the answer I received. Rmhermen 23:04, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Unusual page

Not a list, as discussed above but Mars photos is an odd sort of gallery. Should this exist? Or maybe exist only on Wikicommons? Rmhermen 21:21, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

You're right, that is not an encyclopedic article. John Reid 01:42, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

It is not needed on commons, as there is a version there. It is definitely not needed here. ~Linuxerist L / T 15:58, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I have listed it for deletion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mars photos. Rmhermen 16:04, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Screenshot?

What program do I use for screenshots?--Tdxiang 陈 鼎 翔 (Talk) Chat with Tdxiang on IRC! 04:14, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

That depends on what operating system you run. On Microsoft Windows, press "PrtSc" to get a snapshot of the screen, which can then be Pasted into Microsoft Paint or any other graphics program and saved as an image from there. Pressing "Alt-PrtSc" will give you a snapshot of only the currently active window instead of the whole screen. On Linux, there are several programs available but most will depend on which Window manager you use. GIMP is usually available and it has an option to capture the screen or a selection. GIMP can also be downloaded for Windows.-gadfium 04:51, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

KSnapshot is what I normally use on Linux, though I typically use GNOME. It is very easy to use, and allows you to select regions or windows. The GIMP is nice, though kind of bulky to open just to take a small screenshot. ~Linuxerist L / T 07:58, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Title of Articles

The title of each article includes "- Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia". This is too long. It could be shortened to just "- Wikipedia". —Masatran 06:56, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I actually disagree. First off, I hadn't even noticed that until you brought it up, and second, I think it emphasizes Wikipedia's greatest attribute, the fact that anyone can edit. btw, everyone check out Portal:Rock and Roll, or better yet, help out! We need a lot more contributorsOsbus 01:53, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Although it may be annoying when you go through so many articles, it is great for first-timers coming in through Google. It should stay, IMO. ~Linuxerist L / T 07:56, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Appropriate articles for 1 April, 2006

I've been wracking my brains for a good place to ask, and I figure this is the best place to do so. I'm trying to find a good article that's already an FA that hasn't already been listed on the Main Page to list on there on 1 April, 2006. I had hoped to bring an unusual article up to FA status, but I think that since the FA process takes a while, that would be unlikely. A better solution would be to list an already-FA article on the Main Page.

So my question is, what do you think are appropriate articles that are already FA, but haven't been listed on the Main Page yet? These articles should be unusual. One suggestion I saw on Wikipedia talk:Tomorrow's featured article suggests that Read my lips: no new taxes might be a good article. Any other suggestions? Thanks, --Deathphoenix ʕ 19:08, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

have you looked thru Wikipedia:Unusual articles? BL Lacertae - kiss the lizard 00:36, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I have. In fact, that's where I identified the unusual articles that are already featured articles given as examples in Wikipedia:April Fool's Main Page#Featured article. Here, it appears that spoo hasn't been listed in the Main Page yet, but there is some resistance to listing it on April Fools as can be seen in this thread. --Deathphoenix ʕ 15:49, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Portal:Test

I just came across Portal:Test, and its original location Portal:Topic. Are these still needed for anything, or are they left over from when portals where introduced? --W(t) 15:42, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

New Articles for Review

I have created two new articles: representative assembly and Delaval. They are embryonic. I propose to add to them in due course. Tell me what you think.

AWhiteC 00:36, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

they look good to me. dont worry about asking for reviews tho - people watch the newly created article list, and youll probably find people starting to edit and improve any articles very soon after theyre made. BL Lacertae - kiss the lizard 23:50, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

So far, so good. Keep editing. Smiles, Durova 01:22, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Hey Jimbo, you should be paid for these poses

pic Apple should be paying you.

Lotsofissues 03:18, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Suspicious Orwellian "Missing Information"

Hey there. I'm really new to the network and I love this site. I've been reading a lot recently about changes in the world. I'm planning on moving to a 3rd world country and some things have been of concern to me.. Namely, what conflicts are nearby, should I be worried about diseases, etc...

During my research I started looking into this new Bird Flu Epidemic, wondering if anywhere is safer then the rest.. I saw on your global map that North America is clean of any incidents... Not so. When I was living near Princeton BC, there was a big debate over the millions of chickens they were transporting there to be incinerated..

Perhaps my web searching skills are limited but it took me a long time to find this article and when I did find it, it was on an site based in the Netherlands... Anyone have any input to share with me about this? I find it baffling that such a huge amount of birds being slaughtered could be so hard to find in the local governments database... Am I krazy?

• Article from http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:HGadC44RrC8J:www.nieuwsgrazer.nl/forum/read.php%3Ff%3D1%26i%3D18771%26t%3D18202+similkameen+bird+incinerator&hl=ja&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=1

Canada: Protesters block landfill entrance as shipping of avian flu carcasses begins; Plans to burn carcasses at the Similko Mine incinerators are being opposed by nearby Princeton's town council with support from the Okanagan Similkameen Regional Distri Auteur: ton (---.speed.planet.nl) Datum: 15-04-04 00:28

... "There's a little bit of anxiety from people that do that work that we may be introducing an unknown epidemic in the Interior needlessly," he said. ...

++++++++++++++++ canada news

Protesters block landfill entrance as shipping of avian flu carcasses begins

CACHE CREEK, B.C. (CP) - British Columbia's agriculture minister tried to calm residents worried the disposal of avian flu-infected chicken carcasses could spread the disease, but about 100 of them protested by blocking a highway. "This is an emergency situation across the province and it requires a provincewide response like we saw with the forest fires last summer," John van Dongen said at a news conference Tuesday.

Earlier in the day, protesters opposed to the dumping of poultry carcasses at the landfill at the Interior community of Cache Creek blockaded the road into the facility, staring down RCMP in the process.

Van Dongen said no birds have been shipped to Interior landfills or incinerators and transports will not begin until strict protocols are finalized.

He said he hoped those protocols would be established later Tuesday but that any affected communities would receive 24 hours notice of chicken carcasses being shipped.

The minister appealed for assistance from British Colmbians in dealing with the crisis.

"We are not trying to shift our problems somewhere else," van Dongen said.

"I am a farmer myself. I don't want avian influenza in the Interior nor do I want a bunch of rotting carcasses lying in the Fraser Valley because of internal squabbling in British Columbia."

About 19 million birds will be culled in the Fraser Valley, just east of Vancouver, in an effort to wipe out the form of avian influenza that has infected 25 farms.

The birds are to be disposed at landfills in Cache Creek and Chilliwack, in the Fraser Valley, and at incinerators in Princeton in the southern Interior and Burnaby, a Vancouver suburb.

Cache Creek Mayor John Ranta and others in his community are concerned trucking the dead poultry into the Interior raises the possibility the virus will be exported to their region.

Ranta took part in the morning protest and returned for a rally Tuesday afternoon.

He said the community's landfill is not equipped to deal with hazardous and special waste.

He said the provincial government's plan to use the site to dispose of 300 tonnes of carcasses infected with avian flu is a violation of agreements to use the site for household waste.

"We agreed to take household waste," Ranta said. "The province cannot trample the rights of the people.

"It's not just local people that are (angry)," he said. "I've had calls from around the province saying 'Stick to your guns, don't let the province ram this down your throat.' "

Health and agriculture officials have already blamed human traffic for transporting the virus between farms.

Ranta has demanded a meeting with Premier Gordon Campbell to find a solution to the issue.

The area around Cache Creek is dotted with cattle ranges but Ranta said exotic birds such as pheasants and ostriches are raised commercially in the area.

"There's a little bit of anxiety from people that do that work that we may be introducing an unknown epidemic in the Interior needlessly," he said.

"It's seems like a ludicrous prospect to transport diseased chickens around the province," he said. "(Authorities) should not risk, sort of, the cross-contamination of the province."

The protesters believe the carcasses are a problem for B.C.'s Lower Mainland and should be disposed of there.

RCMP Sgt. Jerry Fiddick said the mood at the protest was peaceful.

"They're just not willing to move," the commander of the five-man detachment said. "We're not calling in anyone extra at this point."

RCMP officials from the nearby Kamloops district detachment are monitoring the situation, however.

The entrance to the landfill is on the Trans-Canada Highway, which the police intend to keep open.

At least one truck was prevented from entering the landfill, even though it was not carrying dead birds.

The demonstration was organized by Chief Mike Retasket of the Bonaparte Indian band.

In addition to disposing of birds in Cache Creek, others are being put in the Chilliwack landfill 160 kilometres east of Vancouver. Others will be incinerated at two locations, one in Burnaby and the other near Princeton, B.C.

Plans to burn carcasses at the Similko Mine incinerators are being opposed by nearby Princeton's town council with support from the Okanagan Similkameen Regional District.

It's not the incinerating that worries Mayor Keith Olsen.

Rather, it's the area's high rate of motor vehicle accidents around the area's bridges that worries him. He fears a crash involving carcass trucks could spill infected birds into creeks that feed into the Similkameen River.

"If it got into the Similkameen River, it goes all the way down through the Similkameen Valley, down across the line and eventually into the Columbia (River)," Olsen said.

"It could have real bad repercussions if there was an accident."

Van Dongen said experts will be holding town hall meetings in the affected communities to assure people and to answer their questions.

Chilliwack Mayor Clint Hames has received some calls of concern, but he said he's satisfied there is no health threat to humans or animals.

"We want to be part of the solution. Farming is our bread and butter here," Hames said.

"The long-term risks are non-existent. These birds, once they get composted, are going to cook up real fast and that eliminates the virus."

Van Dongen said authorities held a test burn at the Burnaby incinerator and will hold a second one before working out a timeline for when the chickens will be incinerated. ++++++++++++++++ Bron: MyTelus, April 13, 2004 http://www.mytelus.com/news/article.do?pageID=canada_home&articleID=1584144

First this is not a debate forum. Second this was two years ago and is it a different bird flu, not the somewhat deadly to humans Asian bird flu. Rmhermen 14:48, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Yahoo! Buzz Index

I don't know if this has been noted elsewhere, but I recently noticed that Yahoo! has a chart of the most popular searches that is updated 5 times a week and Wikipedia is currently one of the more popular items (#7). The FAQs explain their method (e.g. filtering).--GregRM 15:32, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but Bettie Page is number 6 and American Idol gets the top slot... Durova 00:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

External Links

What is the policy about adding external links to an article? I have read that an externally-linked site should have minimal advertising and a minimal profit-oriented presentation. Basically I would like to add some links from Wikipedia to some of my website pages1728 . For example, the Wikipedia article about polygons is very thorough but wouldn't it be good to include a link to a polygon calculator? I was just wondering because I have dozens of calulators at my website and was wondering what your policy would be if I linked Wikipedia to some of these. (My website has been online for 7 years and has never had 1 advertisement and never has requested contributions). Thank you. --Wolf1728 22:54, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

The dominant criteria should be the amount of useful information in the linked site. There are a few hardliners who want Wikipedia to cut itself off any connection with the real world and its advertising, but they can safely be ignored. There are already vast numbers of links to sites with advertising. However, you should exercise caution in linking to sites with which you have a personal connection. Only add them if you can genuinely say that they offer strictly relevant material that no other link in the relevant article offers. Choalbaton 01:17, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

One editor tried an excellent approach at a page where I edit: they posted a link to the talk page, disclosed their connection to the firm, and asked other editors to evaluate whether it was appropriate. Durova 14:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

That's a good policy, just don't overdo that either. Repeatedly arguing about it is just disruptive. If your links are considered good, someone will add them. The general policy is at WP:EL. - Taxman ^Talk 16:38, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Formal/informal articles

Has anyone else noticed that our articles about formal are about mathematics and computer science, when the average user is probably going to be looking for formal/informal speech/behaviour/dress/etc. in the etiquette sense? The formal article sums this up in two sentences hidden in the "Other examples" section: "Formal occasions such as a formal dinner party or high tea might require one to wear formal attire such as an evening gown or tuxedo. An example is Formal Hall." and "As an adjective, formal means being in accord with established forms (this links to the article on form - nothing to do with established forms) or the antonym of informal (redirects to computer science article) (or casual)." In fact, the casual and formal wear articles are the only two I could find referring to the common etiquette usage of 'formal' at all! Nothing on formal speech or behaviour or anything! Any ideas? +Hexagon1 (talk) 13:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I turned it into a proper disambiguation page, but it needs some cleanup if you'd like to do that. Each topic where the word is used needs to make the topic clear and link to our articles about it. We should list every important use of the topic, and in the disambiguation page itself, not focus on one meaning over the others. Informal as a redirect to formal grammar is a terrible idea in my opinion, but I didn't search around for a better one. One could argue it should just be a disambig of it's own or a redirect to formal. Have a look at Wikipedia:Disambiguation for ideas on how to improve that one and ways of finding appropriate topics in general. - Taxman ^Talk 16:36, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Troubleshooting with Wikipedia

Lately, when I enter Wikipedia pages logged-in, it just happens that I get a message about some problem that allows the page to open slowly, asking me whether I would like to abort. Any way, besides logging off, that can keep this from happening in the future?? 66.32.191.204 21:16, 20 March 2006 (UTC) (Note that this is User:Georgia guy not logged in for convenience when it comes to this.)

Friendly templates

Per WP:BITE, I'd like to get to a position where we have a collection of "friendly" templates for use in user Talk space in relation to deletion and other housekeeping actions. I have nn-userfy for userfied autobiographies and user-nnband for non-notable bands speedied under A7, I am sure there's an AfD friendly notice somewhere around, and there is obvious scope for more, many of which may indeed already exist. It would be good to collect them at WP:UTM as a class. What do other people think? Just zis Guy you know? 14:30, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia's longest article?

Good day,

Does anyone know what is Wikipedia's longest article?

I have been asking myself this question for a long time know, and I was wondering if anyone knew the answer.

Thanks a lot,

Guimauve2

As a rule, articles shouldn't exceed a limit. Longer articles are broken into pages. 132.239.90.150 18:26, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

World War I and World War II could be up there, at 86kb a and 83kb, respectively. Kafziel 18:57, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

You can find out the answer here: here. The Singing Badger 19:27, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The page is a little out of date but, aside from lists, tables, and wikisource candidates, Frizzell County Championship Division One in 2005 (and its counterpart, Division Two) are the longest. Still a lot of sections and tables there, though. As far as articles consisting mostly of prose, Plame affair is among the longest, but it's disputed and very unstable. At 138,000kb, it looks like Race is the longest quality article (it's featured). Kafziel 19:51, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

It might be List of townships in Minnesota in terms of visible text, or List of Statutory Instruments of the United Kingdom, 1996 if Wikitext is included, because of the numerous external links. There is a page Special:Longpages, but it's possible that that list is significantly outdated. Ardric47 08:32, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I just noticed that the "here" above was a link to Long pages. Ardric47 08:33, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Feeback wanted on the browsebar

Categories · Glossaries · Lists · Overviews · Portals · Questions · Reference · Site news · A-Z Index

Arts | Biography | Culture | Geography | History | Mathematics | Philosophy | Science | Society | Technology

The above is the browsebar, which nowadays shows up in a lot of places on Wikipedia. See discussion about it at Template talk:Browsebar#Is this bar useful?. Thanks. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 22:59, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Red question marks

All the red links have turned black (though they're still active links) and are followed by a red question mark in my browser. What's going on here? Is this a new "feature"? How come no one told me? Do I get to vote on whether I like it or not? Denni ☯ 01:27, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Check your preferences, there's an option to switch your view between that, and the normal method. Then force a reload of the page (shift-ctrl-f5 works for me) to make sure the proper CSS is loaded. Sometimes the style sheet hiccups. --Golbez 07:08, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Commons accounts

Earlier tonight I created an account on the Commons to upload a couple images that are in the public domain. I don't forsee ever really checking the Commons account very often at all since I just used it for those two images. Is this a common thing? Are there many English Wikipedians who have virtually dormant accounts at the Commons? Just curious... Dismas|^(talk) 06:20, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I would say that the vast, vast majority of commons accounts are ghosts. Not mine. :) --Golbez 07:06, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

"Britannica Stands By"

What an apt title would that be for anyone wishing to cover the recent corporate response by Britannica to Nature's study. This phrase - "We stand by our editorial decision" etc. - is used dozens of times in response to reviewer's criticisms. Just imagine that, the Britannica monolith helplessly "standing by" as more agile competitors overcome it :)

Seriously, it's very instructive reading. It's interesting how closed, defensive, and corporateish they choose to look - and apparently they're proud of that. Their only goal was obviously to stave off as much criticism as possible, to strike back, to triumph. All of their energy went into discrediting Wikipedia, the Nature, and the reviewers. (They even chose not to call Wikipedia an encyclopedia - no, it's just a "database." What a pathetic bite.)

They indicate errors in the reviewers' criticisms. That's fine, but hey, if the reviewers did wrongly accuse Britannica of non-existent errors, isn't it likely that they did the same to Wikipedia? Or were the reviewers biased against Britannica? Fortunately, Britannica does not claim _that_. But it does present a healthy dose of double standards - like referring to similar criticisms as "fundamental shortcomings" in Wikipedia and "editorial decisions" in Britannica.

I think it's enough to compare the responses of the two encyclopedias to the same event to see who owns the future.