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This is a poll to determine our policy with regard to trolls.

Introduction

As they currently exist, the rules per se do not prohibit trolling by people who do not admit to being trolls. Trolls and the problems they cause have had tangible negative consequences for Wikipedia - one look at Wikipedia:Missing Wikipedians can confirm thus. Until now, attempts to prohibit it have failed primarily because there was no consistent defintion of what constitutes trolling.

The previous poll on this subject, Wikipedia:Dealing with trolls, failed because there was no clear definition of trolling. This issue has now been fixed.

This poll will last for two weeks, ending at 08:00 July 24 (UTC). →Raul654 07:47, Jul 10, 2004 (UTC)

Question 1

I agree with the definition of troll as set forth in Wikipedia:What is a troll

Yes

  1. →Raul654 07:47, Jul 10, 2004 (UTC)
  2. Snowspinner 07:49, Jul 10, 2004 (UTC)
  3. blankfaze | (беседа!) 07:51, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  4. Viajero 08:09, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  5. JoJan 08:12, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  6. Sean Curtin 08:24, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  7. Thue | talk 10:17, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  8. Morwen - Talk 12:08, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  9. Danny 12:12, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  10. Secretlondon 12:18, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  11. Alex.tan 17:19, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  12. Schnee 18:27, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  13. sannse (talk) 18:37, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  14. Jallan 19:37, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  15. denny vrandečić 20:47, Jul 10, 2004 (UTC) (although I would prefer Pestering be not part of the definition, I do agree with it)
  16. Cyrius|✎ 21:58, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  17. Fennec (はさばくのきつね) 22:33, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  18. Pjacobi 23:10, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  19. Fred Bauder 23:39, Jul 10, 2004 (UTC)
  20. gadfium 00:27, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  21. Could be refined a little more, but basically on the mark. Jmabel 01:00, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)
  22. -- Grunt (talk) 02:23, 2004 Jul 11 (UTC)
  23. TonyW 02:50, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)
  24. Bryan 04:37, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC) A solid basis, though I'm sure there will be refinements over time (this is Wikipedia after all)
  25. RickK 05:48, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)
  26. Everyking 09:56, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  27. theresa knott 10:35, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  28. Cribcage 18:10, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  29. I support the page, however, this vote is premature. I applaud the effort at Wikipedia:What is a troll but there should be more time for discussion before a vote takes place. The page is but two days old. UninvitedCompany 02:30, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  30. What Bryan said. We really need a policy on this. Ambivalenthysteria 03:28, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  31. Tεxτurε 04:43, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  32. Dori | Talk 13:24, Jul 12, 2004 (UTC)
  33. BCorr|Брайен 21:21, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

No

  1. Too broad. Too subjective. --GD 10:26, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  2. Terrible definition, completely subjective Sam [Spade] 20:46, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  3. Lumps too many issues together. --Eclecticology 21:04, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  4. It seems far to easy to hang the label "troll" on someone. Dieter Simon 23:26, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  5. Acegikmo1 02:13, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  6. This is a recursive definition. It basically says that a troll is someone who does ... or anything else to deliberatly be a troll. Steven jones 12:35, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  7. This definition allows for meta-trolling. I.e. now, if you want to be disruptive, accuse someone of being a troll. I know that I have certainly done a thing or two that could be considered a troll (ditto for vandalism). I am sure that most people on Wikipedia have done the same as well. I know that there is no wikipedia cabal, but I firmly believe that it can appear that way to a newcommer. In short, I do not think that this definition is helpful. Jrincayc 14:14, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  8. Definition by outward behavior alone would be very difficult, but the current definition complicates the matter by bringing intent or mens rea (e.g. "deliberate") into the equation which amounts to mind reading. No one can read another person's mind with indisputable certainty...at best it is an informed guess. The focus of the definition should be on (non-)compliance with WP policies like NPOV...think, "actus reus". A troll should simply be defined in the context of (non-)compliance with policy, and the current definitions may be better employed as examples of trolling...or being "disruptive" whatever you want to call it although there are better alternatives than "troll". —B|Talk 16:36, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  9. Accusation of cabalism doesn't have to be the red flag to our bull. --Zigger 17:54, 2004 Jul 11 (UTC)
  10. The word troll is unhelpful. Consider disruptive behavior and the standards set forth below for the term. That would be much more useful. - Taxman 18:08, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)
  11. "Troll" is the wrong word. Because it is a pejorative reference to the person, not the behavior, it escalates the situation. It is also unfit for the described behaviors: trolls only catch folks who bite. Netnews and wikis are very different, and borrowing this term for use in wikis, at least for this set of behaviors, contributes to confusion. Dictionary definitions for troll. NealMcB 04:34, 2004 Jul 12 (UTC)
  12. No, no, no. The policy is arbitrary; it makes repeated reference to what is "obvious" when those things (such as what is a candidate for VfD) are not always obvious, as a causal perusal of the controversy of some VfDs shows. Further, the bit about "If they accept the policy, or seek to change the policy at the appropriate location, they are probably not a troll. If they declare the policy "wrong" (but make no effort to amend it) or simply ignore it, it's possible that they are a troll" sounds suspiciously like being forced to accept "re-education" in Maoist China, or even "if it floats it's a witch!" Finally, by making even asking ("pestering" -- who defines what is pestering) questions, it creates a chilling effect on speech on Wikipedia. Wiki is attractive precisely because the hierarchy is relatively flat, and all are welcome to criticize or be criticized, with a consensus slowly (sometime painfully slowly) emerging. Bureaucratic rules, and worse, vague rules, will take the fun out of wikipedia. -- orthogonal 04:44, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  13. I agree with the above objections. It is impossible to deduce intent, and too many issues are combined. --Crag 18:02, 2004 Jul 12 (UTC)
  14. Guanaco 21:53, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The word troll is unhelpful

  1. Erich 23:19, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  2. Fritzlein 05:44, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC) The problem with using the word "troll" is that it already has a meaning which is more specific than, and different from, the meaning we are voting on here. A troll is someone who is deliberately provocative, but we are trying to try stretch that to mean persistently hindering the progress of Wikipedia in a mish-mash of otherwise unrelated ways, plus a catch-all for means of hindrance we haven't thought of yet. Erich is absolutely right that we should ban persistent disruptive behavior. Collecting stuff we don't like and calling it "trolling" doesn't help us towards that laudable goal.
  3. Taxman 18:08, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC) Same as abouve. Calling it disruptive behavior is much more helpful in that it lets everyone know what is meant. Just substitute the word disruptive behavior for the word troll is definition 2 and you have a great standard under which to stop disruptive behavior.
  4. moink 21:31, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC) Specifying the particular unproductive behaviour and trying to address it is much more helpful.
  5. I strongly agree Sam [Spade] 21:36, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  6. The word troll may be a poor choice. I'd rather use "troublemaker." UninvitedCompany 02:30, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  7. NealMcB 04:34, 2004 Jul 12 (UTC)
  8. Jrincayc 12:44, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC) See below comment
  9. Guanaco 21:53, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Comments

  • The word troll is unhelpful - Well, that's what Question 2 is supposed to solve, and make the word helpful. If you don't think that the definition described there is accurate, that's another thing- perhaps you don't think that users of this sort should be discouraged? Or is there something inherent in the word troll that makes it unhelpful? Suppose we invented a new word for the matter, would that help? I reccomend freem as the new term for people who seek not to help Wikipedia, but to disrupt it. - Fennec (はさばくのきつね) 23:54, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  • to respond... I've commented on the definition at it's page. I found the definition educational. I definitely think we need to discourage this behaviour. See my earlier rant. We do not need new words!! my goodness. There are plenty of words already that deal with specific problem or disruptive behaviours. Why do we need new words purely intended to condemn each other? We need to be describing the actual behaviour: clearly, calmly, and (to the greatest extent possible) in a non-condemning manner. Call someone a troll and they'll be upset. Tell them their edits are:
  1. a personal attack,
  2. upsetting valued contributors,
  3. wasting everybodies time
  4. or not WP:NPOV
then we're calling a spade a spade and they have something to something to think about.
Disruptive is my current favourite alternative to Trolling Erich 00:23, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
    • Agree. --Zigger 17:54, 2004 Jul 11 (UTC)
    • Strongly agree. Those four standards and collective them under the term "disruptive behaviors" is much more helpful. Then the criticism is contructive. - Taxman 18:08, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)
    • Agree, I think it is much better to say, this person is a persistent personal attacker, than a persistent troll. The more specific the reason, the better.Jrincayc 22:03, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
      • Thanks. Maybe you'd like to register a vote! Erich 09:08, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Question 2

Our troll banning policy should be: "Trolling is not allowed. Persistent trolling is a bannable offense, and admins may enforce this policy at their discretion."

Yes

  1. →Raul654 07:47, Jul 10, 2004 (UTC)
  2. Snowspinner 07:49, Jul 10, 2004 (UTC)
  3. blankfaze | (беседа!) 07:55, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  4. Viajero 08:09, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  5. JoJan 08:12, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  6. Sean Curtin 08:24, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  7. Thue | talk 10:17, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  8. Morwen - Talk 12:08, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  9. Danny 12:12, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  10. Alex.tan 17:19, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  11. Schnee 18:27, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  12. Jallan 20:04, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  13. denny vrandečić 20:47, Jul 10, 2004 (UTC)
  14. Fred Bauder 23:40, Jul 10, 2004 (UTC)
  15. gadfium 00:27, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  16. TonyW 02:51, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)
  17. Bryan 04:37, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC), with similar caveats to Mav's vote against below - the use of this power should be accompanied by responsibility, and the banning admin should not being the final arbiter.
  18. RickK 05:49, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)
  19. Everyking 09:56, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  20. Cribcage 18:11, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  21. Yes, we need a strict no-trolling policy. —No-One Jones 00:12, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  22. Yes, with some reservations; see comments. UninvitedCompany 02:30, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  23. Tεxτurε 04:44, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  24. Dori | Talk 13:25, Jul 12, 2004 (UTC)

No

  1. GD 10:26, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  2. Secretlondon 12:20, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  3. sannse (talk) 18:49, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  4. Sam [Spade] 20:48, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC) bad definition, bad word, etc...
  5. Eclecticology 21:22, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  6. Cyrius|✎ 21:58, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  7. Strongly oppose. This will cause more problems than it solves. That said, the AC is not a police force and I do support giving admins more authority to temporarily block persistently bad users. IMO this needs to be done by triads of admins and/or through quickpolls. Any action like that would then have to be reviewed by the AC, who could, at their discretion, uphold or extend the ban. --mav 22:29, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  8. Pjacobi 23:15, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC) I consider some of the counter-measures detailed below mandatory, especially the restriction to not yet involved admins and the possibility to ask for a vote to reverse the ban
  9. Erich 23:17, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC). come on, we're Wikipedia! we can do much better than at their discretion. Please see Wikipedia talk:Dealing with disruptive or antisocial editors
  10. Absolutely not. See a better proposal at Wikipedia:Dealing with disruptive or antisocial editors. [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 23:44, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  11. Too strong. Sorry, but I don't trust the simple discretion of individual admins this far. This seems to me to give blanket permission for an admin in any disagreement to ban his or her opponent, even another admin, and claim it was within his/her "discretion." -- Jmabel 01:03, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)
  12. Acegikmo1 02:13, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  13. I believe the policy should be more flexible and depend strictly on the nature of the trolling in the specific case. A blanket rule is not going to be able to cover every single incident of trolling properly. -- Grunt (talk) 02:23, 2004 Jul 11 (UTC)
  14. Fritzlein 06:12, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC) I like the idea of more and faster banning than at present, but not if everything is lumped in as trolling. (see below)
  15. Enchanter 09:19, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC) Banning is ineffective, and often even counterproductive, against trolls. The policy should focus on ignoring them and reverting their edits, rather than banning.
  16. Jrincayc 14:39, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC) The troll label is too vague. I think that any reason give for banning a user should be actionable. For example, some reason like, "Please discuss any change of yours that is reverted in talk before unreverting it", is much better than "Don't troll". The message "Trolling is not allowed. Persistant trolling is a bannable offense, and admins may enforce this policy at their discretion." sounds to me like there is a Wikipedia cabal. Notice that you have sysops who have the power to lock a user out at their discretion. Think about how it would feel to be told this. I am guessing unless you are an unuasally calm person, your reaction would be something along the lines of "Those Explative liers. The say that anyone can contribute to Wikipedia, but now they want to ban me. The will wish that they had never tried to ban me." Much better would be a comment to them like, "This Link contribution is useful, but your behavior Specific problem is harmful to wikipedia. We would like your useful contributions, but if you persist in doing Specific problem, then we may ban you. Feel free to discuss this Here if you have any questions." The goal of any trolling policy should be to gain as many new useful contributers as possible. As such, it sometimes might be necessary to ban a user if they are taking too much time from useful contributers, but this should be considered a failure of the system, and not a sucess. I think that trolling policy might just be sacrificing the future of wikipedia for the present.
  17. I agree along the lines of Mav's comments above. —B|Talk 16:36, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  18. Banning trolls and similar attempts will not work. Trolling is not so much a problem of bannable people but their behaviour. IMHO the only way to solve this problem is to improve Wikipedia culture so that all disagreeing contributors genuinely work towards consensus and value opposing views. At the moment, the Wikipedians who are most unco-operative tend to get closer to their goal than those who seek consensus. For this reason many Wikipedians who have made valuable contriutions have also engaged in some form of trolling. Trolling must become counterproductive. How to achieve this? Simply by making it highly likely that a troll's edits will be reverted. Introduce a "trolling index" for each user, averaged from assessments of that user's adherence to Wikipedia ideals by fellow Wikipedians. Then make a list of the people with the worst "trolling index", and their recent edits. Fellow Wikipedians can then easily check and revert them. This would enable systematic scrutiny of trolls and discourage their behaviour. pir 17:37, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  19. Replace "troll" above with "disruptive behavior" standard set forth above and then I am all for this banning policy. Anarchic freedoms sound great but there are just too many people that want to cause trouble just because they can. - Taxman 18:08, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)
  20. moink 21:34, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC) Concentrates too much subjective power in the hands of admins. There are much better ways to address disruptive behaviour than banning.
  21. I vote against, and support Wikipedia:Dealing_with_disruptive_or_antisocial_editors. Active disrupters are not trolls. Trolls are relatively passive. And they have passion, which vandals more often lack, so banning will have less effect, and possibly counterproductive effect. Blocks seem more effective to me. The strong reaction to the 'cabal' label is surprising to me. I think it is just an unfortunate fact of life that people who feel beset are apt to invoke conspiracy theories. Trying to inhibit such talk by banning on this basis seems very counterproductive and wrong. NealMcB 04:34, 2004 Jul 12 (UTC)
  22. No. Since the definition of trolling is assumed by this question, and as I don't think it has been defined, this would result in banning based on the completely subjective opinions of whomever had the power to ban. Arbitrary governance is unstable and breeds resentments. I'd prefer, frankly, to have to deal with "trolls". -- orthogonal 04:49, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  23. No. Even if I agreed with question 1, banning should require more than an individual admin's judgement. -- Crag 18:06, 2004 Jul 12 (UTC)
  24. Guanaco 21:53, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Neutral

  1. BCorr|Брайен 21:28, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC) I'm strongly inclined to support, but there needs to be a more detailed and clearer policy that what is outlined above. Alternately, I would support a ban under the definition above if three sysops agreed (it wouldn't have to be software-based or reversible to get my suppory, FYI.)

Comments

  1. I oppose this concentration of authority and power which, I think, would inevitably lead to abuse. Whether someone is trolling or not should be decided upon in a case by case basis with an appropriate punishment being determined by the community. --GD 10:26, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
    • I think what this comes down to is whether you prefer trial by judge or trial by jury. --GD 20:57, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
    • While I respect your opinion, deciding things on a "case to case basis" has been basically the policy for two years or so and it's gotten us nowhere. Trolling is a huge problem and if we want to cut down on it, we have to put together a system to cut down on it; otherwise, we're too unorganised to get anything done. blankfaze | (беседа!) 11:59, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
      • Ermm - you've only been here since April 2004. I don't see trolling as a huge problem, rather a high profile one. This looks like IRC group think - sorry. Secretlondon 12:22, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
      • I think the problem is actually a hair worse than you describe, blank. Not only are sysops not empowered currently to do anything about trolls, but, barring a policy that trolling is a bannable offense, the arbitration committee can't do anything. This, to me, is the much bigger problem - right now, trolling isn't actually against the rules at all. Which means even if you're wary about individual judgment on the part of sysops (Though I don't think you should be, since the vandalism policy already calls for such judgment), some policy along these lines is important to have. In general, I think Wikipedia needs as a bare minimum policies that will enable it to remove users who actively seek to harm Wikipedia. At the moment, we don't have said policies on any level - not just on the level of "sysops don't have the power to block X.' No one has the authority to block "trolls" as it stands. (Except Jimbo himself, obviously, but my impression is that he'd like to make fewer blocking decisions.) Snowspinner 14:25, Jul 10, 2004 (UTC)
      • Several things:
        • How does "IRC groupthink" compare to accusations of cabalism? :) - Fennec (はさばくのきつね) 23:33, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
          • Is that bannable? Well it's on the list... Secretlondon 03:19, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
        • Whether or not Blankfaze has been here two years, the portion qualified by that duration says merely that things have been decided "on a case by case basis". Is that false? - Fennec (はさばくのきつね) 23:33, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
          • The also claims that trolling is a huge problem are perhaps influenced by pages such as Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration and Wikipedia:Requests for comment, particularly the late User:Mr. Treason, as well as traffic on the mailing list. - Fennec (はさばくのきつね) 23:33, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
          • If trolling is a high profile problem then it is a major problem, for it occupies the time of good contributors and starts to drive them away. Just because it doesn't directly or permanently mangle an article every time does not preclude it from being significant. - Fennec (はさばくのきつね) 23:35, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
            • Trolls require food and people seem to be desperate to feed them. Desist - ignore and revert if necessary. They are not worth this amount of time. Secretlondon 03:22, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  2. Far too broad and liaible for abuse. What would happen in practice is that people would be banned for doing some of the things listed. We are asking administrators to guess intent, rather than judging actions. Secretlondon 12:20, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
    • I think that, if you look at Wikipedia:Dealing with vandalism this is already the case - note that the definition of vandalism there specifies that it is a bad faith addition, not a merely inept good faith addition. Sysops already have to judge whether something is in good or bad faith. Snowspinner 14:13, Jul 10, 2004 (UTC)
  3. I'm voting for this, but I think it needs to be made sure that a person accused of trolling has a means to appeal. Everything else *will* lead to abuses of sysop power. -- Schnee 18:27, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  4. I'm voting no on the banning policy. I feel that, even with the excellent summary of the problem provided, deciding when someone is trolling is too subjective to be left to individual administrators. In my view this would inevitably lead to abuse. I would, however, support this as a policy for enforcement by the Arbitration Committee (although I would like to see their views on that too). I also wonder what validity this poll actually has. I think this may be a question only Jimbo can answer, he has basically set banning policy in the past and I would suspect that he would need to endorse any policy voted on here. -- sannse (talk) 18:49, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
    • Jimbo has replied to this concern on the mailing list [1] -- sannse (talk) 19:51, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  5. Provide a page where anyone blocked or banned for any reason can protest the ban, or someone else can do it for them if they don't want to. Let the message remain for 5 days. Let people vote and comment on it like they do now in Votes for Deletion. Yes, mistakes will be made ... and can reasonably quickly be undone when they are obvious mistakes. Sysops who make too many mistakes, that is blocking or banning against consensus, can be removed from blocking and banning, if the community so decides. Let's have fast decisions on such behavior quickly and case by case on the individual incidents rather than letting it continue. That also means bad behavior by sysops if they overstep. Let's have fast full re-instatement and apology if consensus decides a block or ban is not justified, with no particular blame on a sysop who has honestly errs occasionally. Let the message be something like: "You have been blocked for << aadfadefmabbaourabaerouaraeararar >> for XX hours. It is possible that this is unjust. If you feel so, please protest at Blocking Complaints as mistakes are sometimes made and Wikipedia wishes to give blocked editors a chance to respond." Jallan 20:04, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
    • Strong agreement. Such a face would be much needed if the policy is applied. The page may be on Meta, being linked to from the trolls User-Page, so that it is easily avaible for him (and he is still technically able to write on it after a banning) --denny vrandečić 20:47, Jul 10, 2004 (UTC)
  6. I vote for this, although I am not totally happy with it. I would prefer that the banning policy would be, like, "a sysop needs agreement from X other sysops in order to ban a user on trolling" or "the banning sysop must not have dealt with the so-called troll user previously" (in order to preven sysops from banning someone in anger). Still, as said, I agree to the policy though I think it's not perfect - because I think, it is more important not to loose any worthy contributors than my unease with some details of the policy. --denny vrandečić 20:47, Jul 10, 2004 (UTC)
    • These suggestions would greatly ease my concerns about abuse and allegations of abuse. Needing to find X-1 sysops would help prevent sysop abuse, and having X sysops agreeing on a ban would reduce the credibility of false abuse claims. -- Cyrius|✎ 22:26, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  7. We already have too many hair-trigger sysops. Let's not encourage them. The policy is based on being guilty until proven innocent, rather than the other way around. Perhaps a sysop who peremptorily bans someone who is later found to be innocent should be banned for the same amount of time that the banned person was banned. Eclecticology 21:22, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
    I disagree with your assertion that the policy is about an assumption of guilt. Quite the opposite, the policy, at least as I was intending it, is about assuming innocence, and about giving alleged trolls as many chances as possible. Snowspinner 21:44, Jul 10, 2004 (UTC)
  8. I agree with this policy up until the last part, "sysops may enforce this policy at their discretion." Allowing a single sysop to act as judge, jury, and executioner is not acceptable and will lead to problems. Whether abuses exist or not, trolls will still be able to easily allege that their ban was an unjustified action by a rogue sysop. This will lead us into wasting our time dealing with complaints and having to investigate the actions of other sysops. -- Cyrius|✎ 22:26, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
    • Suppose we made that pural mandatory, and made it sysops-plural? Then we come up with a place where we organize the pluralization of a definition of trolling? - Fennec (はさばくのきつね) 22:36, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
      • As I said above, that would make me a lot happier. Needing threeish sysops to act would prevent most potential "heat of the moment" sysop abuse and help quiet complaints about wrongful troll labelling. -- Cyrius|✎ 01:27, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
    • Would people prefer if we also had an option along the lines of "Trolling is not permitted on Wikipedia. Sysops may use temporary blocks to enforce this policy." And leave it to the arbcom to make the bans? Snowspinner 22:51, Jul 10, 2004 (UTC)
    • I interpreted the meaning as more like "if an admin sees an obvious trolling attempt, a ban can be among the tools available to him to stop it" - such a ban wouldn't be a "sentence", it'd be an "arrest" and would still be the subject of full debate. Presumably an admin who frequently bans people that shouldn't be banned wouldn't stay an admin for long. Bryan 04:49, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  9. We need a section on what people oughta do if they're blocked for trolling and don't consider themselves trolls: where to go, where not to go, not to evade blocks, etc. - Fennec (はさばくのきつね) 23:12, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
    I imagine they would do what they do when they get blocked for vandalism and don't consider themselves vandals... Snowspinner 23:25, Jul 10, 2004 (UTC)
    Well, that way we can officially tell them they're wrong to evade blocks, etc. :) - Fennec (はさばくのきつね) 23:56, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
    "Troll" and "trolling" are woolly terms that will forever invite arguments because of the shortcomings of their meanings. If a person behaves like a vandal – ultimately that is what it comes down to – but is called a troll he/she can quite likely return with an argument that hinges on technicalities allowed by the unclearness of the concept, and at the same time continue with their trolling/vandalism. The trouble also is that the words troll and trolling are about attitudes, those of the troll and those of the people treating him like a troll or what they believe to one, whereas a definition nearer to vandal and vandalism would be probably much more precise and much more likely to be acted upon by admins. I appeal to you to think about this before you consider the use of flawed words such as troll and trolling, the full meaning of which we will probably never know. They almost certainly will be re-interpreted every time they are being used. Dieter Simon 23:51, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
    See my proposal above in the other comments section: we should replace all instances of the word "troll" with the word freem, if the word itself is inherently flawed. :) - Fennec (はさばくのきつね) 23:56, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
    Fennec, I think you've missed out point. Maybe we didn't make our selves clear. Hopefully the above helps. Erich 00:27, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
    I suspect this problem will be heavily alleviated by defining trolling, as above. Snowspinner 00:32, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)
  10. The sorts of trolling that are already described and the actions that should be taken in those caes are, I feel, already covered by the nature of policies that have already been put in place, if not by the letter of the policies. As I've said above, it will depend entirely on the nature of the trolling as to what should be done about it. -- Grunt (talk) 02:26, 2004 Jul 11 (UTC)
  11. --Fritzlein 06:12, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)Wikipedia most definitely needs a new way to deal with disruptive users. The current system is barely functional. Our solution, however, must not lump vastly different sorts of offenses under a single, inaccurate title. Most especially we must not label behaviors we haven't even thought of yet as bannable offenses. Let's split out the issues and vote on each:
    1. Persistently engaging in edit wars with multiple opponents -- I vote for banning
    2. Refusing to accept decisions of a large majority -- I vote for banning
    3. Raising accusations of cronyism -- I vote to tolerate this behaviour, yet it is listed as one of the surest indicators of trolling! Thus, if I consider myself to be a persecuted minority, I could be banned for stating that opinion, even if my behavior is in no other wise disruptive.
    4. Engaging in behavior that a particular admin considers destructive -- This surely must be decided, by the community, based on the type of behavior, but under the current definition of trolling, admins may call it "creative trolling" and ban a user without more clearly defining the offense.
  12. I think that the proposal just misses the point, because it focusses on banning trolls. Banning is not particularly effective, as it can be easily circumvented by anyone who really wants to. It can make dealing with trolls more difficult, rather than less, because it leads them to come back with different usernames, making it hard to track who they are. What is needed is a strong community consensus that if someone is trolling, they should just be ignored and their bad edits reverted. Enchanter 09:20, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)
  13. A quick and efficient means of discouraging problem users needs to be employed if we care about encouraging positive contributions and keeping wikipedia from being seriously bogged down by a few or alot of troublemakers. Wikipedia isn't a government created for welfare of the masses...it's just an open community encyclopedia...decisions on problem users don't necessarily need to be decided democratically to serve the purposes of wikipedia; it can be done by smaller groups of active users and still be fair...not perfect. Other checks and balances can be put in place to keep wikipolice from abusing their discretion. We just need to be creative. Wikipedia has matured such that at this point it makes sense to require users to register...otherwise enforcing policies will always be a joke given proxy servers, etc. —B|Talk 16:36, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  14. This seems like four questions. Using disruption instead of trolling, then:
    1. "Disruption is not allowed": Yes. It's a bad thing.
    2. "Persistent disruption is a bannable offense": Yes. Banning is the last resort against persistence. I see one month as persistence.
    3. "admins may enforce this policy": Yes. Vanilla users can't do blocks anyway.
    4. "at their discretion": No. If it's clearly disruptive and persistent, it won't be hard to get a consensus, or cabal :-). --Zigger 18:05, 2004 Jul 11 (UTC)
  15. Again, these votes may be premature since the policy page being voted on is only two days old. Like some others, I don't like the word troll and would prefer troublemaker or disruptive edits or edits in bad faith or some other clearer langauge. "Users who persistently edit in bad faith can be blocked." UninvitedCompany 02:30, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

As a note to everyone, I encourage people in the camp of "This is basically a good definition but could use X" to vote in favor of the definition. It's already pretty clear that there's going to have to be another round of voting because the blocking policy as proposed isn't going to pass. And, in said second round of voting, I intend to offer the proposal to change all mentions of "troll" to "disruptive user" in the policy. If people have other objections/additions along these lines but basically support the policy, I encourage people to note them, and we can deal with them in the second round of this. Or, I suppose, third round, since this is already the second round. Snowspinner 04:59, Jul 12, 2004 (UTC)

And if you haven't noticed, editing of Wikipedia:Dealing with disruptive or antisocial editors is continuing until about midday UTC 23 July 2004. Please come and have a look! If it doesn't look like something you will be able to support when voting starts, on 23 July 2004, please help us shape it into somthing you could support. Erich 07:15, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

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