Talk:Reza Pahlavi, Crown Prince of Iran

Has Reza Pahlavi II ever talked about the excesses and oppression of his fathers regime?

This article says he lives in Virginia, but some other sources say Maryland, for example the article about his wife. So where does he really live? I also thought the article was quite confusing about when he moved to the USA. "In 1978, he moved to the United States to complete his higher education." "[...]since 1984, the United States."?--ursel

A reminder

All participants, please sign your comments!. This must be the most confusing discussion page I've ever read :)--inks 07:40, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Also, please use edit summaries!--inks 23:34, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The text refers to the recent elections as undemocratic, but offers no links or evidence supprting this allegation.—GJK 12:06, 28 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That refers to almost all elections held since the revolution of 1979 (which is not to say that those before the revolution were democratic!). The elections are not free, i.e. undemocratic, because of the lack of freedom of parties, freedom of speech, of publication, and because a majority of Iranians with non-Islamic political views cannot be candidates. Also, religous minorities (Sunnis, christians, etc.) cannot run for offices such as presidency. Many high rank politicians are filtered out ideologically before the elections and thus their names never appear at the polls. This information is considered common knowledge, I think, and therefore needs no references. If you like, you can refer to the numerous independent media reports, as well as human rights reports and related documents on Iran in which lack of political (e.g. electoral) freedom is described. I hope that answers your question. Shervink 12:21, 28 October 2005 (UTC)Shervink[reply]

Okay, fine, but either add that to the article with reputable and objective citations or remove the allegation. GJK 11:48, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pilot, to flee or not to flee!

1. Him being a pilot or an aviator of any kind? please show proof no records exist of such skills either in the US, europe or Iran.

1a) The young prince trained as a fighter pilot at Reece Air Force Base in Lubbock, TX in the 1979-1982 timeframe. I know this first hand as I was there, at Reece, and witnessed his training. Further, he did not flee Iran. He lived in Lubbock before and during the Iranian revolution. You cannot flee something before it occurs. He completed his training in early 1982.

70.251.238.208 16:53, 5 February 2006 (UTC)Tom in Dallas.[reply]

2. he did flee iran, flee means to leave a place in haste under duress (ie: you will die if you don't leave)

3. exile : he has been in exile since he fled. usually people who flee a place, leave for one reason or another. has he gone back to iran since? why hasn't he? some suggest he can go back if he renounces his claim to the throne? which throne i ask? which monarchy? iran like many other countries in the world has changed its governing system.

Please, first READ what other people write and then answer. He is a jet fighter pilot, I think you can see some info on his web page, along with pictures, moreover you can open up any book dealing with his family's situation during the revolution days. As I said, he did not flee. He left one year before the revolution for educational matters. He was in texas when the revolution started.

I think he is right, no proof of a "real" license. A photo would be nice of him flying a so-called jet fighter by himself. I think the Iranian military gave a lot of honorary titles to members the shah's family during his reign. just remember the word honorary, as opposed to legitimately.

so i think the above changes should remain

Your changes are so biased and your arguments so ridiculous that they are hardly worth replying. Since you are not willing to do the reading yourself (which you should do BEFORE STARTING TO WRITE ANYTHING), i will give you the main points:

- This has nothing to do with the honorary titles. He was trained as pilot in the US army. This is by the way, very common in royal houses. You will find similar training periods for many crown princes in europe, for example. - He LEFT Iran, for EDUCATION. It had nothing to do with the revolution. Just as his father left Iran to study in europe for several years. These things had nothing to do with the political situation in Iran, which was still very stable when he left. - As for the license, I don't think you really expect him to put copies of his degrees and licences on his webpage! I suggest you stop vandalizing this page.

Since you are so non biased maybe you can tell us why Reza Pahlavi II is "de jure Shah of Iran", when the monarchy has been long abolished? Which law is this refering to and can you give us a reference? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Melca (talk • contribs) .

You got a point!

If you have no arguments, which you obviously don't, you should stop this childish behaviour. Shervink 19:04, 29 September 2005 (UTC)Shervink[reply]

Because of the vandalism and repeated reverts of an anonymous user, I suggest to 1.Edit the Pahlavi-related articles to an agreeable form together and then 2.Block them for editing for a while to protect them from this improper behavior. Shervink 12:20, 30 September 2005 (UTC)Shervink[reply]

If anybody is still not convinced by the above discussion that RPII is a pilot and that he did not really flee Iran (which he of course would have if he was in Iran when the revolution happened!), I hope they are willing to tell us about it here. Otherwise, it is totally improper behavior to keep falsifying an article or removing relevant facts from it. Also, since you are continuously editing here, I suggest you get a user account. Shervink 12:05, 1 October 2005 (UTC)shervink[reply]

There's no doubt that he was a pilot: I've read it in numerous authoritative sources. One is The Iranians: Persia, Islam and the Soul of a Nation by Sandra Mackey. In fact, the book mentions that he sent a message to the Iranian government volunteering to fly in their army at the start of the Iran-Iraq war, but was understandably turned down (one might even accuse him of bluffing, since the revolutionary government could hardly have let him back in Iran). --Saforrest 03:42, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

His Imperial Majesty

Should he really be referred to as "His Imperial Majesty"? —Ashley Y 12:13, 2005 Apr 30 (UTC)

No, he shouldn't be. The person who wrote this is probably a pro-monarchy idiot.

I don't understand why someone from Ireland (Jtdirl) is so obsessed with demonstrating his opposition to the abolished Iranian monarchy. Of course there is no monarchy anymore in Iran. But that does not mean you can simply ignore the fact that Iranian shah's and crown princes such as Reza Pahlavi, have been referred to like this before the revolution, and it is only a matter of good manner to still refer to them like this. Royalty should be addressed with approprite titles, whether or not it is the ruling royalty does not have any significance. And no, I'm not a pro-monarchy idiot. "Imperial Majesty" is simply an equivalent for the persian "a'la hazrat", "olya hazrat", or "vala hazrat". It's not a symbol of my affiliation with them, which I do not have, it is a matter of accepting history and not trying to falsify it. The behavior of wikipedia editors in this matter completely shakes my confidence in the correctness of other material I read here. It is shameful. Nothing less than that. Shameful and biased.

I am not expressing any views on the Iranian monarchy. I am reflecting editorial standards in an encyclopædia. All publications have house styles which are applied across its content. If (and it used to be the case) Wikipedia editorially decided to include styles in the front of articles then I would be supporting it here. That however proved controversial. So we adopted a new policy — no styles at the start, but a style box in the article. That is the Wikipedia policy and that is the policy we all follow. This policy is automatic and no royal page on Wikipedia can deviate from it. As is normal in every publication on the planet, the house-style was applied, which in this case meant (and will continue to mean) the automatic deletion of His Imperial Majesty just as it would mean the automatic deletion of Her Majesty from the article on Queen Elizabeth, for example.

Secondly His Imperial Majesty was the style of a reigning Iranian monarch. Reza Pahlavi never legally reigned so it cannot be used for him, except by breaking Wikipedia's fundamental NPOV rule, which it cannot do.

Thirdly, all those who claim to inherit either a defunct throne or a throne held by someone else are automatically pretenders. The fact that he would be Shah if the throne still existed, and that he is the legal heir, is irrelevant. The son and heir to the last King of Italy is a pretender. The son and heir of the last Austrian Emperor (until he 'abdicated' the role) was a pretender. It is simply a formal term used to describe the claimant to a throne that no longer existed.

So your edits (i) breached house style (something no publication accepts and always changes back), (ii) breached NPOV in giving to HIH a monarchical style even legally he is not a monarch, and (iii) deleted the valid term for describing the heir to a defunct throne. That is why they were changed. It had nothing whatsoever to do with any views on the Iranian monarchy and would have been done in any of Wikipedia's 700,000 articles that similarly broke with housestyle, NPOV and correct terminology. FearÉIREANN

\^(caint) 19:27, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Jtdirl. We should follow establshed conventions for articles. Also, Reza Pahlavi II is, as of now, a private citizen living in the USA. Having never ruled, the honorifics do not apply to him. Also, the monarchy was deposed 28 years ago, any one claiming the throne is correctly termed as a "pretender". Thanks. --Ragib 20:21, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That was 26 years ago! But generally, thanks jtdirl for the enlightening explanation. I understand your position now. That the honorifics do not apply to him as a king is obvious. I think, that they do apply however as a (former) heir to the throne. As I beleived the honorific used for the crown prince in Iran (vala hazrat) also to be equivalent essentially to HIM rather than HM, I thought it would be better to include HIM. I may be wrong however. May be a better translation would be simply HM.

82.210.119.108 reverted edits by 59.154.24.34. What is your reason for that? As i se it 59.154.24.34's edit is more correct since Reza Pahlavi had no choice but to flee iran and he is infact living in exile since he can not return to Iran. I hope that 82.210.119.108 will come up with an appropriate reason.

The reason is very simple. He left Iran in 1978. One year before the revolution. Iran was perfectly safe at that time with no sign of any threat to the Pahlavis. It is thus not accurate to claim that he fled Iran. He can very well return to Iran, as a private citizen, if he gives up the claim to the throne, as was announced a few years ago by the Islamic republic government. As for the other points, I do not see why his field of study and details of his education should be omitted.

Ok i can accept him not fleeing, but if what you are saying, about him being able to return as a private citizen, is true, he is still living in exile since he has not given up his claim to the throne. As for the other points being omitted i agree with you. I dont know why they were removed, unless they are false. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Melca (talk • contribs) .

POV Article

This article reads like a promotional page for Reza Pahlavi II, Inc. Who agrees/disagrees with this?

--IRelayer 00:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. I have put an Neutrality disputed tag on it. It really is the most appallingly biased article. And why the heck is he allowed to have an ordinal (number)? Only reigning monarchs can use ordinals. He never reigned, and is merely a pretender, so cannot use an ordinal. FearÉIREANN

\^(caint) 01:11, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree at all, what POV exactly? what promotion? "the most appallingly biased article"?!

I am going to remove the POV tag until there can be an explanation of what exactly is POV with it. -- - K a s h ^{Talk | email} 10:31, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]