Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism

Previous discussions are found here:

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism/Archive 1 - This archive primarilly deals with issues of transliteration.

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism/Archive 2 - This archive primarilly deals with issue of when and how to use the term "fundamentalism".

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism/Archive 3 - This archive is about (A) What do Jews mean by divine inspiration, (B) Traditional and Orthodox views of the Mishnah and Talmud, and (C) How should we use the term "fundamentalism" vis-a-vis these issues.

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism/Archive 4 - This archive is about how Science has affected Jewish theology.

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Aim and scope

Crossposted from IZAK's talk page:

The aim of the project has not yet clearly been elucidated. However, my past experience with Wikiproject "Clinical medicine" is:

• When experienced editors exchange information, the quality of articles goes up due to coordination
• Articles may be announced for peer review or floated for comments
• Standards (such as Hebrew pronunciation!!) can be agreed upon
• It makes edit wars briefer and less damaging
• It helps in coordinated efforts against vandalism
• Editors who are particularily knowledgable or have access to resources can do quick checks on facts.

I think a Wikiproject would be a massive step in the right direction. At least it will offer some unity in the otherwise very much fragmented approach to Judaism articles on Wikipedia (although IZAK's work on categorisation has brought a lot of structure). JFW | T@lk 15:52, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Where is the bias?

The main page proclaims:

"The current viewpoint of articles tends towards a Conservadox (Liberal Modern Orthodox) point of view. Partially this is because other points of view find it more difficult to discuss all topics. However, this point of view is quite biased against more Orthodox viewpoints and possible against more liberal viewpoints as well."

I don't see the bias. We are following NPOV rules in all of our articles. As long as we continue to do so, we will be fine. All of our articles may be seen as being biased towards Conservative and Modern Orthodox Judaism, due to the fact that the intellectual leaders of these movements have policies similar to NPOV rules. In contrast, most ultra-Orthodox Jews, (Hasidic and Non-Hasidic) are virtulently anti-historical, and view all historical research as anti-Semitic and heretical. But that is always a complaint made by fundamentalists about all non-religious encyclopedias. Wikipedia has a long history of being attacked by fundamentalist Muslims as being biased against their interpretation of Islam; Wikipedia has a long history of being attacked by fundamentalist Jews as being biased against their interpretation of Judaism; and Wikipedia has a long history of being attacked by fundamentalist Christians as being biased against their interpretation of Christianity. What they offer instead is a total violation of NPOV methodology. Their objections merely prove that the historical survery, NPOV style of writing which we currently have in our articles is the correct one to have. RK 13:37, Jul 14, 2004 (UTC)

My thoughts, exactly!--Josiah 16:58, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Wikiproject categories

If the project branches out endlessly it will have more trouble defining its subject matter and will attract more edit warring that is warranted. The secret of keeping this project succesful and viable is limiting its scope for the time being. JFW | T@lk

I agree with JFW here. What are everyone's thoughts on merging some of the categories together, if possible?--Josiah 02:23, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

At this time the categories are both sufficiently broad enough yet are divided logically. How on Earth would one combine categories with over fifty articles with others of a similar nature? We are not dealing with morons, any person with average intelligence will be able to very quickly find whatever they need simply and efficiently with the present categories. A lot of thought, time and work has gone into the Category:Jews and Judaism. Who is to blame that Wikipedia contains thousands of Jewish-related articles? We have to work with what we've got. IZAK 19:41, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Topics That can use Templates

• Jewish Books

(See Category:Jewish texts)

• Rabbis (geonim, rishonim, acharonim)

(See Category:Rabbis)

• Halachos of Shabbos

(See Category:Jewish law and rituals)

• Prayers

(See Category:Jewish law and rituals)

• Holidays

(See Category:Jewish holy days)

• Time periods in Jewish History

(See Category:Jewish history)

• Masechtot and/or Sedarim of the Talmud

(See Category:Mishnah and Category:Talmud)

• Books of Tanach (Hebrew Bible) (this template is functional)

(See Category:Torah and Category:Hebrew Bible/Tanakh

• Jewish cities

I don't understand; what is a "Jewish city"? A city built by Jews? A city that has mostly Jews in it? A city in the State of Israel? All Wikipedia articles on cities should have the same format in all cases. RK 03:04, Jul 15, 2004 (UTC)

I agree with RK in this regard. It is better to just call them places or geography. Contextually in an article it will be understood to what extent they were or are "Jewish".

See:

• Category:Israel geography;
• Category:Torah places;
• Category:Hebrew Bible/Tanakh places.

IZAK 06:51, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The Bible

I would like to make a radical suggestion related to the above two points, and to the next one. Every culture and religion on WP has its its literature discussed objectively and fairly (hopefully), but nevertheless merits articles presenting it as part of that culture. In the case of Judaism and Christianity, however, because the canon is partially shared, there is a great deal of conflict, implied bias, and a deep sense that a meaningful picture is hard to paint within some of the articles. This is especially true for the biblical books.

I think most of us would agree that reading the Bible is two different "worlds" in the Jewish and Christian traditions. (I write this as someone who was and is involved in interfaith activities, including study groups. The meeting between the two worlds can be fascinating and meaningful, but they remain two different worlds.) Therefore, I suggest the following radical idea: That articles on the biblical books be parallel. I.e. one article on the history of Christian interpretation and study, another on the how the book was and is studied in the Jewish traditions. These articles need not be POV: A "Jewish" article, for instance, can and must, for instance, discuss how Christian exegesis influenced Jewish study, how Jewish study has been influenced by modern theories, etc. But there should still be to separate articles. How to give them titles would also take some thought. Do people agree with me?Dovi 20:08, Jul 15, 2004 (UTC)

I think the idea of two articles makes a lot of sense, each one linking to the other at the bottom. Jayjg 15:04, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Jewish news box

What was that Jewish news box that appeared in the Jews and Judaism article? How is it maintained? Who decides what goes in it? Jayjg 15:29, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I made the box, but I'm not sure where to put it. For now it is on my user page. If you wish to put it on a page you can add the following to your page (You can only see it in edit mode):Template:JewishNews

If you want to edit it there is a link to edit it. --Ezra Wax 02:17, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

How are the items in it updated? Jayjg 02:57, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Click here: . There is also a link in the box itself. If you want to add an item, just copy a previous item and change it. You can also edit the items in place. Each line in the table begins with | and each line has to be separated by |- as you will see if when you edit the table. --Ezra Wax 03:35, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

So people would just decide for themselves what "Jewish news" was worthwhile noting? Jayjg 15:16, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Ezra Wax has taken it upon himself to insert this into many articles. On their own, many other Wikipedia editors removed it. I agree with the removal. Not that I am against having Jewish news, but it seems inappropriate to have Jewish news in all of our Judaism articles, Christian news in our Christianity articles, etc. We're an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. RK

Pronunciations Part 2

On many articles Pronunciations are extremely, IMO, wacked up with "scientific" transliterations. Wikipedia is not the Scientific Weekly, or a Hardvard Research project. 90% of the people reading them would not have any clue as to what they were reason. For example, the Josiah page transliterates my name as "Yošiyyáhu" - why not keep it simple so everyone can understand it - "Yoshiyahu"?--Josiah 02:36, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Well, maybe that can be a third transliteration, as I told you in private message before. But we cannot remove the scientific info; encyclopedias are supposed to educate people who don't know the material, and not simply tell certain visitors what they already know. Vernacular Israeli Hebrew is as valid as Standard Hebrew in this matter. However, we still need to strike a balance between detail and colloquial familiarity. Also, Jdfwolff bought up a very good point before — there are too many transliterations. Even within Israeli Hebrew alone there are often lots of different individually preferred spellings for the same name. Standard Hebrew transliteration is a perfectly equitable compromise, very conservative of its spelling detail. (Tiberian Hebrew aside from this particular issue; Tiberian is the second name listed in each entry anyway.) Also, I have found that when I use simplified non-standard spellings, they are disputed by scientist editors. And I respect science and standards (both old and new), so I have yielded to its application. - Gilgamesh 03:13, 18 July 2004 (UTC)

In front of me is a small Hebrew & English Diciontary by Dr. Reuven Sivan and Dr. Edward A. Levenston, New York: Bantom 1975. It is mostly modern Hebrew with Tiberian pointing. The English preface states:

The Hebrew column in both parts of the dictionary is given in plene spelling, in accordance with the latest rules of the Hebrew Language Academy. All the relevant additional letters yod and vav have been inserted so that the user cann identify the word in the form in which he will encounter it in all modern books and newspapers. On the other hand the full and precise pointing has been aded (except for the silent sh'va) thus ensuring the precise pronunciation of each word.

Other dictionaries are similar. Tiberian pointing is hardly dead and is still the standard way to indicate vowel pronunciation as well as appearing in almost all reader versions of the Tanakh. Of course one could use pointed Hebrew in the Wikipedia, except that the average Hebrew fonts available to many don't add proper pointing. Also transliteration has its benefits. Probably no reader is equally fluent in every alphabet, abjad, syllabary and logographic system for every language. It is useful to enter names and words in the original characters of a non-Latin script for those who can read them (as transliterations are sometimes not dependable for fine details and because the words in the original characters can be copied and pasted into search engines for searches using the characters of the original scripts). But if I'm talking about linguistics between languages or just want to present a foreign word then I am far better off and most readers are far better off if I use Latin-letter transliterations which don't depend on a reader knowing three different Indic writing systems, the Ethiopic syllabary, Hebrew writing, paleo-Hebrew writing, Ugaritic cuneiform and Persian cuneiform, Linear B and so forth.

It also helps if the transliteration system used is a standard one, widely employed, and complete enough that those who do know any of the source character sets can translate the form back into the source character set with accuracy 99% of the time. Accuracy is more important than simplicity when simplicty doesn't fully represent the original spelling.

The scholarly systems of transliteration used for Semitic languages, including Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic, Syriac and so forth do allow someone who knows only one or two of the languages being discussed to follow a linguistic discussion. Their fullness and their conservative nature means that one familiar with them and familiar with a modern dialect of the language can usually correctly guess the pronunication of the word in the modern dialect. They are used in slightly varying versions in almost all journals and books coverning Semitic languages, in dictionaries and grammars of Classical Hebrew, and in almost all Biblical commentaries (whether written by Jews, Christians, or atheists or anyone else).

You can mostly get modern Sephardic, Ashkenazic and Yemanite pronunciation out of Masoretic Hebrew and out of a full Latin letter transliteration of Masoretic Hebrew by ignoring certain sounds and making certain regular changes. You can't do this well with a modern transliteration with ignores the differences between letters which in Hebrew are distinct. And you can't properly compare cognate forms in other Semitic languages, living or dead.

To some degree the modern semi-standard transliterations of Hebrew are kludges intended for typewriter use or ASCII use when better means are unavailable. Unicode is making better means available. Fonts, many of them free, are listed at sites like Unicode fonts for Windows computers (most of them also usable on Macintosh and Un*x machines). On the Macintosh, if a requested character is not in the current font, the system will search through the fonts (trying to do so first in those closest in style to the current font) until it finds the character and will then display it. Such a character will probably to some degree mismatch in style with the surrounding characters, but at least the character will be there. The Mozillia web browser and Mozilla-based browsers like Netscape do the same searching under Windows and under Un*x systems. The browsers are free. There is no reason why anyone who cares about special characters shouldn't be able to see them. And systems and readily available fonts are improving in this area to the point that I expect that within about two years it will be a very small percentage of viewers who don't see automatically see all characters used in standard Semitic Latin-letter transliteration. I would expect fully pointed Hebrew could also be used in Wikipedia with similar expectation that most users will see it correctly and that almost anyone who cares can configure their system to see pointed Hebrew correctly.

Unfortunately such transliterations are still not unambiguous. From Yôšiyyāhû alone one would not know that the second consonant of the name is alef rather than vav. One could transcribe Yōʾšiyyāhû to make this clear, but that would obscure the fact that the Masoretes indicated that the alef was quiescent in their pronunciation. Perhaps Yō(ʾ)šiyyāhû? But people don't do that. Parentheses would normally be used only to indicate that a letter was sometimes included in a form and sometimes missing.

Still, a transcription that distinguishes between all emphatic consonants and the corresponding unempahtic consonants, between bet and vav in all cases, and between alef and `ayin has an advantage. It shows more about the original spelling. It is more accurate.

As to 90% of the people reading such a transliteration not knowing exactly what the various diacritics mean and so forth, that goes for almost all transliterations. Presumably anyone who wants to know more details can look up the information in the Wikipedia under the name of the language or script. I would imagine about 90% of the people who look up information about a certain animal or plant don't understand or appreciate the scientific classification totally, especially when they are not familiar with the part of the animal or plant kingdom to which the entry makes reference. But obviously it must be there for the benefit of those who do understand it or who want to understand it. Similarly there are numerous mathematical articles in the Wikipedia which are probably opaque to 90% of its readers and many more that are partly opaque. One may expect specialist technical information to appear in any article in Wikipedia when it is germane to that article. Those not interested in that information can skip over it.

Technical transliterations generally used by linguistic scholars for any languages are important in the same way that the scientific names of plants are important, to be skimmed over by those not interested but to be used by those who are.

And of the various transliteration systems used for Hebrew, the slightly varying forms of the standard scholarly transliteration system (despite its general inability to handle quiescent consonants distinctly) is the best standard method at representing in Latin Hebrew as it is written with Tiberian pointing, regardless of dialect. The system has been in general use with slight variations for over a century and is used universally in for Semitic languages generally and for Classical Hebrew.

Jallan 07:07, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Oh man... That was just unbelievable. I am speechless. ... Can you be my personal translator? :D (j/k) You make my paragraphs look like complete gibberish. You ooze clarity on impressive levels that I never dream of. ^_^ - Gilgamesh 09:41, 18 July 2004 (UTC)

Transliterations

I see mentioned "Israeli Sefardi transliteration" and "Artscroll quasi Ashkenazi transliteration" but I can't seem to find articles on Wikipedia about either of them? Where should I be looking? — Hippietrail 02:01, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

• look at [1]--Josiah 03:15, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The documentary hypothesis

The documentary hypothesis has nothing to do with Christianity; that is a strawman attack used by some Orthodox Jewish writers to delegitimize it within the traditional Jewish community. In fact, most Christians don't accept it at all. Similarly, the modern form of the documentary hypothesis, which has been developed over the last century, does not rely on the early and anti-Jewish ideas of Julius Wellhausen. That too is is a strawman attack used by a few Orthodox writers to delegitimize it within the traditional Jewish community. I don't know of a modern-day single adherent of Wellhausen's specific views. RK 00:25, Jul 20, 2004 (UTC)

• Who claimed that the Christians invented it? I find the idea absurd.--Josiah 03:26, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

This is how it started, see: Higher Criticism and Radical Criticism: "Higher criticism originally referred to the practice of a group of German Biblical scholars centered in Tübingen, including Friedrich Schleiermacher (1768-1834), David Friedrich Strauss (1808-1874), and Ludwig Feuerbach (1804-1872), who began in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries to analyze the historical records of the Middle East from Christian and Old Testament times, in search of independent confirmation of the events related in the Bible. They are the intellectual descendants of John Locke, David Hume, Immanuel Kant, Gotthold Lessing, Gottlieb Fichte, Georg Hegel, and the French rationalists." On Wikipedia IZAK 05:22, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

• It's an outright lie to claim that the first three were Christians, when they all disbelieved the bible, according to their Wikipedia pages. I didn't bother to check up on the other persons.--Josiah 05:36, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

What's with the "outright lie" business? All of them were Christian theologians, were steeped in the Christianity of their present day culture in Germany and had their roots in it. Otherwise why would they be so fanatically and "fundamentally" obsessed with the Bible of all things, they could have pursued hunting or something full time instead no? Why is it important to defend them, by checking on their level of Christain observance, when what they did is indefensible Judaicly speaking? You lack an understanding of how permeated with (the Christian) religion Western society was at that time. IZAK 05:58, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

If you haven't read about them, they were originally Christians - probably because that's how they were raised - but as a result of their research disowned any belief in the Bible. Calling the DH a "Christian Theory" is just as accurate as if an Atheist had studied the Bible, and come to believe it (thus abandoining atheism), and saying that Atheists believed the Bible is true! Why is it important to defend them? Emet! I need say nothing else.--Josiah 22:51, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Izak, you little have idea what you are talking about. You are not discussing historical facts. You are merely repeating Orthodox Jerwish polemics against the documentary hypothesis (DH). You also seem unaware of the many Orthodox Jews who now have come to accept the DH as valid. You need to do some reading on this topic by authors who don't have a religious agenda, but who merely discuss the history of the subject. RK 20:44, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC)

A serious challenge from User Gilgamesh on Hebrew language

See User talk:Gilgamesh: "Invitation for Hebrew linguistics project participation" for the following: Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism is trying to decide all Hebrew linguistics issues for Wikipedia by themselves. But Hebrew is not purely the realm of Judaism; it is also the realm of Samaritans, Christians and Abrahamic religion as a whole, and also secular Canaanite languages studies. I'm trying to challenge mono-cultural mono-sectarian dominance over a linguistic field that we all should be sharing together. I invite you to participate in trying to pluralize Hebrew language conventions for Wikipedia. In particular, not only is Tiberian Hebrew transliteration challenged, but also Standard Hebrew transliteration, as some people want to use only Israeli Hebrew colloquial transliteration or Ashkenazi Hebrew liturgical transliteration. I think these are perfectly valid and worthy of participation, but not at the total expense of every other Hebrew linguistics study concern. Please support a multi-religious multi-cultural scientific NPOV mandate for studying Hebrew linguistics on Wikipedia. - Gilgamesh 03:00, 18 July 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the invitation, I would be happy to participate. I was just thinking last night that we need something like this. Where do I sign up?Zestauferov 05:32, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Well, that I don't know. I've never started a new Wikipedia Project group. I just know that this appropriately needs to be a secular pluralistic project for it to have NPOV legitimacy. - Gilgamesh 05:38, 18 July 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, so? That was actually more of an argument between Yoshiah_ap and I. That argument has been largely put to rest. Surprise, IZAK wasn't involved. :P - Gilgamesh 09:15, 22 July 2004 (UTC)

At the risk of stepping into another minefield, may I suggest that we tone down the rhetoric? It seems to me that the problem is not really as great as you describe it, and that all the options are legitimate.

The people who are tossing around suggestions for Israeli or Ashkenazi transliteration are mostly concerned about being both useful and user-friendly on articles about Judaism and Jews, especially in the relevant context of a living tradition among a live community and nation. I think that is a legitimate concern (though it should be argued respectfully). These people are not much concerned with historical linguistics, nor with the relevance that Hebrew may have to others in different fields, and that is also OK. Instead of being so dogmatic, I suggest allowing Hebrew to be transliterated based upon the context of the article in question. General guidelines wouldn't hurt, as long as they remain suggestions and not laws. Articles specific to Jews and Judaism may need a different style of transliteration that an article on the Samaritan Torah or Christian Bible study. It is wonderful that WP is built to allow this kind of pluralism, so let's take advantage of it instead of arguing about it.

So I think an additional Hebrew linguistics project would be wonderful, and I want to sign up! (I personally have an interest in both areas. I just hope I'll have time for all of this.)

PS: Gilgamesh, pluralism isn't only a secular concept. In fact, if it's only secular, it's not pluralistic :-)

Dovi 14:07, Jul 22, 2004 (UTC)

Alright, I can work with all that. :) And as I said, it was largely a dispute between Yoshiah_ap and I, who said that this project would have the final say on all Hebrew linguistics conventions, when I thought it would more appropriately be a linguistics project field shared with other appropriate projects such as this one. And, also as I said, the issue was largely put to rest. But if it becomes an issue again, I wouldn't mind participating in a new Hebrew linguistics WikiProject. It wouldn't yank Hebrew issues from this project; I see such concepts as overlapping considerably and should always cooperate on an interproject basis. Oh, and I realize now that "secular pluralism" may not have been the best term; I meant "secular" more in the terms of multiple viewpoints coming together to work towards a common neutral goal; and in the case of Wikipedia, that happens to be secular concensus for the sciences involved. - Gilgamesh 13:32, 27 July 2004 (UTC)

New serious changes by Gilgamesh: Hebrew letters written as "Canaanite"

In the past few days, User:Gilgamesh inserted some confusing information (changing guidelines he agreed to about only two "types" of Hebrew), by adding "Caananite" to Hebrew names in articles such as:

• Ashqelon or Ashkelon (Canaanite אשקלון, Standard Hebrew Ašqəlon, Tiberian Hebrew ʾAšqəlôn; Arabic عسقلان ʿAsqalān; Latin Ascalon)
• Jaffa, Israel (Canaanite יפו, Standard Hebrew Yafo, Tiberian Hebrew Yāp̄ô; Arabic يافا Yāfā; also Japho, Joppa)

This leaves the reader with the perculiar impression, that "Hebrew" letters are "Canaanite" whereas Hebrew as it is known to almost everyone is written in that bizarre "Latin" font. Why do these Hebrew-associated articles have to be so bombarded with User:Gilgamesh's innundations of multiple (up to four!) examples of the words? Would this be tolerated in Wikipedia English articles were they to be started with the different "American", "British", "Australian", and "Latin", or "Old English", pronounciations? Obviously NOT, so why do Hebrew words have to be explained in: "Canaanite": TWO forms of "Hebrew"; "Arabic", and now even "Latin"?! (does the Arab version on Wikipedia also carry "Hebrew", "Latin", and "Canaanite"???) What is the purpose of all this visual clutter? Is it meant to "water down" the exact meanings in ONE Hebrew? And call it "Hebrew" which it is, and not "Canaanite" which no-one has a clue what that is, that would be quite sufficient without three other linguistic variations. Should articles be focused on linguistics or getting the basic information across? IZAK 07:45, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Category:Israel-Palestine Geography

I realize now that it was probably unwise to do all the work to migrate the category name without discussing it, and for this I am sorry. I moved Category:Israel geography to Category:Israel-Palestine Geography when I noticed that many of the entries in the category were places in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. To me, it seemed like a clear-cut task of NPOVing it, and so I went to each article, one by one, and changed the geographical category from "Israel" to "Israel-Palestine", and then moved the category page itself. But now it's appearing that this term — in my experience commonly used in neutral context to refer to the geographical region of Israel and the Palestinian regions — is confusing some people who think that it's trying to imply that Israel-Palestine is a political enetity rather than a geographical one. To this blunder I attribute my autism and lack of theory of mind, things that often get me into trouble without ever seeing it. The only contention I ever predicted was IZAK, which I thought acceptable since he contests virtually everything. What really surprised me was contention from Nyh, with very reasonable arguments. And now...well, my act of rational centrist NPOV seems to have developed into a logistical fiasco, and I have only my shortcomings of consideration to blame. IZAK's category did need to be NPOVed, but I feel I may have made an error in trying to do so, though it seemed perfectly logical at the time. I'd like to request help and discussion in ways the category can be adequately NPOVed in respect to the messy political issues regarding Israel and Palestine issues. I plunged head first into an edit spree, and I'm not sure how to clean this up properly. - Gilgamesh 13:48, 22 July 2004 (UTC)

• Gilgamesh, what I suggest is that you look at all the entries with Arab sounding names carefully, and if they belong with Category:Palestine then put in an additional category link to Category:Palestine at the bottom of that page. Category:Israel geography was meant to include areas assocaited with the geography of Israel (and not the politics) in a general sense. In fact, some would make a case that Palestine can be encompassed by Israel, and of course if Palestine advocates want to insert categories they should do so too, but there was no need to mesh the two as you did and create an "entity" that does not exist in reality. Can we get one of our admins to UNLINK and revert your redirect of the Category:Israel geography that you had directed to Category:Israel-Palestine Geography as a start, then I will take time to insert Category:Israel geography into the 140+ entries (again). Category:Israel-Palestine Geography should be emptied and not used at all at the present time for obvious reasons. IZAK 18:10, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

• Ok, I am now working my way through it and it looks like I will be able to sort things out. By the way, recently, someone had created a category Category:Palestinian Cities, so that should be a category to consider placing on pages that the may have some connection with the Arab Palestinians. IZAK 18:51, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Fine, you move the category back, and I won't "destroy" it. (And I destroyed nothing in the first place.) I probably made a mistake with the name change anyway; I only did what I thought would avoid arguments, not start them, and I happened to be wrong this time. But you still have to appreciate the POV challenges that may arrise from it. I make NPOV edits out of compassionate secularism and political neutrality, two central principles of Wikipedia. I don't ever want to hear you say such ugly obscene slurs again. - Gilgamesh 02:19, 23 July 2004 (UTC)

at least this time he isn't calling you a murderer.--Josiah 02:46, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

You fellows must be having bad hair days, what can I say. Gilgamesh I will work it out, no problem. And as for Josiah, your silliness again reveals that you have nothing of substance to say and just resort to crazy misunderstandings of things that were never meant nor said. Get a life and do some real work on Wikipedia, and stop "shadowing" and waiting to pounce when I am not even addressing you, and stop parroting and echoing negative things that are said. IZAK 05:53, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I'll try to avoid decision-making in Israel-Palestine naming issues. You must realize I intended absolutely no offense by it. If someone is always going to dispute "Israel", and someone is always going to dispute "Palestine" and "Palestinian territories", and apparently people are also going to dispute "Israel-Palestine", and alternative names like "Canaan", "Levant", "Holy Land", etc., then what the heck does one call the geographical region in NPOV fashion? If "Israel-Palestine" is not an option, then what on earth is? I can't think of a more neutral and compromising term than that. - Gilgamesh 06:43, 23 July 2004 (UTC)

Gilagamesh, don't think in terms of ancient history, you must realize that due to the current conflict some may want to enter into emotional disputations that have no place within the framework that Israel is a sovereign and independent country and that places (towns, cities etc) that are either within its boders or points that border on it must be listed as Category:Israel geography which is accurate and is NPOV. If there are some legitimate disputes based on reason and not on terror, then some boderline places can have Category:Palestinian Cities or simply Category:Palestine placed at the bottom of the relevant page/s. Having now gone and checked each article carefully I have delisted some places that have become purely Palestinian controlled, and where there is some known doubt (as based on the political situation) placed them in, or added to their pages, Category:Palestine so as to be as NPOV about it as possible. You must always remember that even though Israel and the Palestinian Arabs share some territory, yet they remain two opposite and hostile entities that one cannot just "redefine" by creating "categories" that simply reflect wishfull thinking and not anything that is real in the world as it is, or as it is known to be. IZAK 09:49, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Resolution

See related discussions at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Gilgamesh#Re_Category:Israel_geography

• Finally, the Category:Israel geography is fully restored. Thank you. IZAK 10:16, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

New article

Yet somehow, Gilgamesh cannot let go of this subject and insists on creating an article in Wikipedia on the subject : Israel-Palestine. IZAK 10:47, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

How ridiculous to contest such an article. There are 382000 Google results for "Israel-Palestine"! It is a term, not an endorsement! Do you enjoy making life difficult? My patience is thin, and my Wikistress is at level 4. You are seeing the approaching end limits of my diplomacy. - Gilgamesh 11:13, 23 July 2004 (UTC)

Hebrew WikiSource

I wanted to let people know that I am currently inverstigating and learning about a possibility that might be useful to many of us: Setting up a Hebrew WikiSource. I've announced it on the Hebrew Wikipedia as well. Those interested in working together on this, please contact me.Dovi 09:03, Jul 23, 2004 (UTC)

Hebrew Text

In my attempt to learn about setting up a Hebrew Wikisource, I learned some things that may be useful here. Specifically, there may be a legitimate need in certain articles to present a limited amount of Hebrew text. (This should not be overused - it could also get messy in a similar way to what we've already seen with overuse of transliteration - but it certain contexts it is justified, as are the various transliterations.)

Here is what I learned: To add Hebrew text in a LTR environment such as this English Wikipedia, and to make sure that paragraph formatting and punctuation appear correctly (as in a RTL environment), use the following code: <div dir="rtl"></div>.

For instance:

מאימתי קורין את שמע בערבין? משעה שהכוהנים נכנסין לאכול בתרומתן, עד סוף האשמורת הראשונה - דברי רבי אליעזר. וחכמים אומרין: עד חצות. רבן גמליאל אומר: עד שיעלה עמוד השחר.

(the first Mishnah in Berakhot). The typing is not so easy to do within the edit box in a LTR environment, which is why a Hebrew wikisource in its own domain (just like the Hebrew Wikipedia) would be preferable. Anyone who is interested in setting that up can let me know.Dovi 03:46, Jul 26, 2004 (UTC)

• Do we need to put the div tags with existing Hebrew writing in the English articles?--Josiah 17:43, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

You only need the div tags to accomplish the kind of function called "format paragraph" in your word-processor, when you want the paragraph formatted RTL or LTR. In you placed just a word or two of Hebrew within an English paragraph you don't use this, because you want the paragraph formatted LTR. But if you include Hebrew text as a separate paragraph, as in my example above, then you want it formatted RTL and you need the div tag.Dovi 03:53, Jul 30, 2004 (UTC)

Dealing with instances of anti-Semitism

I wrote a new section in the main project page about how we should deal with anti-Semitism on Wikipedia. Jfdwolff noted that it may be outside the scope of this Wikiproject, so did Jayjg. Ok, if so, then where would it be appropriate? RK 15:04, Jul 28, 2004 (UTC)

Jayjg further writes "Actually it deals with alleged anti-semitism, which is both technically and actually outside of the scope of this project. I recommend it be removed from here. "

As far as I can tell, the examples given were clear forms of anti-Semitism. Holocaust denial (aka pseudo-historical revisionism) is understood as anti-Semitic by scholars on the subject, and is instantly recognized as such by all Jewish organizations. The same is true for presenting Richard Wagner's virulently anti-Semitic statements as somehow not being anti-Semitic. The position of the Anti-Defamation League on anti-Semitic quote mining and quote forgeries by is also commonly recognized as anti-Semitic by the mainstream Jewish community, and by all scholars of anti-Semitism who have written on the subject. RK

Holocaust Denial is indeed antisemitic, and presenting Wagner's statements as non-antisemitic may well be, depending on the statements and context. However, I haven't seen the actual debates/revert wars themselves, so I can't tell if they match your perceptions of them. I must caution, however, against crying anti-Semitism in cases where it may not be warranted; this only makes it more difficult to gain support when true cases of anti-Semitism appear. Moreover, the use of the label tends to muddy the waters in any debate, so that the opponents end up debating the accusation itself rather than the substance of the article. In the worst case, those making the accusation (and any supporting their position) are seen as overly sensitive and lacking credibility, and makes further attempts to NPOV articles impractical. The accusation of anti-Semite should be used extremely sparingly, if at all, since it rarely provides any practical benefit. Jayjg 16:46, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I'm copying some of this to the project page. Jayjg 16:59, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I am in agreement with your points. However, I believe that I have been misunderstood. Nowhere did I write that we should get together and attack someone as being an anti-Semite. What good what that do? Rather, I was talking about something different: Sometimes anti-Semitic edits occur, so the practical question is this: How do we respond, and restore Wikipedia articles to a factual and NPOV status free of anti-Semtism (and free of any other form of bigotry). Step one is to recognize the most common forms of bias, and I noted cases that have occured on literally hundreds of websites. Step two is to mention what we view is a problem on the article's Talk page, and step three is to replace bigoted text and/or racist sterotypes with the high quality factual and NPOV material that should be in Wikipedia articles. RK

My issue is with accusations of anti-Semitism; I have seen plenty of them, and as I have said, I think they should be used sparingly, if at all. Jayjg 18:55, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Holiday articles that we probably do not need

Shalosh regalim (The three pilgrimage festivals)

We don't need an article on this, as there is no such holiday; this is merely a phrase about the three Biblical pilgrimmage festivals, and these festivals already have articles. We could, of course, describe the useage of this phrase in the main article on Jewish holidays, and within each of the three articles on the pilgrimmage festivals. Appearing as an article by itself, however, would only be confusing to the non-Jewish reader. RK

Why not a stub listing the actual festivals in question, and giving the history of the term? Jayjg 16:52, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I don't follow you; please clarify. (I do not that Wikipedia is not a dictionary; we do not have entries merely giving definitions of words or phrases.) Could you amplify what you are asking for? RK

An article listing the three festivals, describing what they have in common, how they were treated in Biblical times (people making pilgrimages to Jerusalem) etc. Jayjg 02:23, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Ok. RK

Chol Hamoed (The "Intermediate days")

We don't need an article on this, as there is no such holiday; these are merely specific days within other holdiays, Sukkot and Pesach. These festivals already have articles. We could, of course, describe chol hamoed in the main article on Jewish holidays, and within each of the articles where it applies. Appearing as an article by itself, however, would only be confusing to the non-Jewish reader. RK

Chol HaMoed is indeed a unique festival period in Judaism, with its own special laws which differ from both holiday laws and weekday laws. I haven't seen the article, but I think the topic itself deserves its own article. Jayjg 16:52, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Uh, no, not in Orthodox Judaism at any rate. In traditional and modern works on Jewish law, chol Hamoed Pesach is considered part of Pesach, and it is discussed as part of the holiday. Same for Sukkot. In any case, this would badly confuse non-Jewish readers, who are the majority of Wikipedia readers. RK

Chol HaMoed of both Pesach and Sukkot are unique festival times, which have certain rules, laws, restrictions, etc. in common which differ from both the Yom Tov rules and the weekday rules. As such, they deserve their own article. As for "confusing non-Jewish readers", the articles should educate them. Jayjg 02:23, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Fine by me. RK

Fast of the First Born (Ta'anit Bechorim)
Acharon shel Pesach (Last days of Passover)

We should not have a separate article on every single aspect of Pesach (Passover.) These are just specific days within Pesach, which already has as article. We should, of course, describe these days within the Pesach article. Appearing as an article by itself, however, would only be confusing to the non-Jewish reader. RK

I don't see a problem in giving each Jewish fast day its own small article. The Fast of the First Born is not one of the days of Pesach, but is a Fast that precedes it. Similarly, the Fast of Gedaliah is not a part of Rosh Hashana, but a fast which follows it. The fast days in general could be bound together by a larger article listing all the Jewish fast days, or perhaps just the minor fast days. Jayjg 16:52, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Ok by me. RK

New Electronic Resource on Jewish Thought

I just wanted to point out a new resource available on Jewish Thought that may be a valuable aid to some of our articles in that area. Go to [2] where there are some very fine e-lectures (which will hopefully be added to in the future, it seems).Dovi 03:20, Jul 30, 2004 (UTC)

Source material

Would it be a good idea to reference the traditional source material where appropriate, or would this depart from encyclopedia norm? Additionally, if appropriate might we standardise a template?

• Pasuk in the Torah crosslinked to Mitzvah
• Masechet in the Talmud crosslinked to the seder in question
• sefer and chapter in the Mishnah Torah and / or chapter and seif in the Arba'ah Turim and Shulkhan Arukh crosslinked to Halakha

Fintor

Pages to work on: Discussion

Balaam - I've stumbled on this yesterday and it needs a LOT of work. I've started by adding headings and removing an anti-Rabbinic reference. What should be done about the article? It intertwines documentary hypothesis, the Torah narrative, a strong Christian POV etc. I think this needs to be separated. Frikle 00:57, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I think your edit was needed, but we don't need to create seperate pages for each view on this one. The article simply isn't long enough.--Josiah 18:32, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant separated into different headings in the same article - for eg Jewish, Christian and secular-scholarship views. Frikle 00:51, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I see what you mean. I just took a stab at fixing this. I improved the section on the DH and removed some of the critical scholarship out of the main story summary, I removed some of the Christian bias; we can and should instead ad such views in the section on New Testament and Christian views; I removed the useless section on rabbinic lit., and replaced it with a more comprehensive section from the 1906 public domain Jewish Encyclopedia. RK 14:20, Jul 30, 2004 (UTC)