Talk:Bochasanwasi Akshar Purushottam Swaminarayan Sanstha

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I have added a disputed tag to this article, because it is not written from a neutral point of view. I will try to re-work the content into an form that is acceptable for the wikipedia. --Goethean 22:45, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Please do. It's beyond me. Also, there is an editor who apparently disles this group and has both added obscurely disparaging remarks about this group, and has repeatedly removed references to it from another article, Swaminarayan. -Willmcw 02:09, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)

Critique

I don't think that the critique is relevant

Apparently the authro of a study feels that the BAPS in that state have become closely involved in politics. That seems like a relevant commentary. I'm not sure that "critique" is the right heading though. It'd be better to have a heading that is more neutral, that simply describes the situation, such as "BAPS in Gujarat". -Willmcw July 7, 2005 21:04 (UTC)

Changed. --goethean ॐ 7 July 2005 21:07 (UTC)

I fail to see how a "conference paper" can be accepted as fact. It is extremely biased to use one person's opinion on a matter and represent them as fact. Presenting information in this manner does not promote neutrality, it promotes misinformation and propoganda.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.85.91.178 (talk • contribs) 12:07, 28 October 2005.

The article doesn't accept the paper as fact. The article merely mentions that the paper exists. — goethean ॐ 17:10, 28 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The paper itself is not relevant to the faith, yet you present it as part of the article. I have read other various articles about on religion(ie Islam, Christianity, etc.) on wikipedia and in these articles they do not present any "conference papers" or political ties inside the article themselves. In the article on Christianity I do not see links to papers on thier ties to the Republican Party. On articles on Islam I do not see paper or link on thier ties to extremist militant groups. I therefore conclude that political ties whether true or not should not be represented in the article to offer a neutral opinion. How come this article is bieng held as an exception and places information in the Article based solely on a single "paper"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.85.91.178 (talk • contribs) 12:33, 28 October 2005.

That's a false analogy, because BAPS does not equal Hinduism. Nor, for that matter is it a seperate world religion on the scale of Islam or Christianity. And in the article on Evangelicalism, one does find a discussion of its politics. — goethean ॐ 17:44, 28 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Aside from this paper which I cannot find on the internet and therefore cannot reference, I did not find any well documentated evidence of the claims made by this person and her paper. So I belive what you wrote in this Article is based on your opinion of what BAPS represents and what information you would like to include and exclude.

Please assume good faith. From the article history, it looks like the link stopped working, and someone removed it. I will attempt to find bibliographic data for the paper. — goethean ॐ 18:48, 28 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

With all do respect, you had ample time to find the source material related to the point of view expressed in the "BAPS in Gujurat" section. In the interest of fairness, since the source is missing and no longer available, the information should be removed.

Is there some reason that we doubt the truthfulness of the summary that we have in the article? If you are the same editor as user:68.85.91.178 then you've already reviewed it before. We are we deleting it? -Will Beback 03:21, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Its not that I doubt the truthfulness. There are several questions here that are unanswered and despite any resolution to those questions, the article is bieng presented as factual. Some things I feel should be addressed is: Is it appropriate to make a statement or a summary based on a single article without verifying the information with another source? Is it appropriate to present material in which the source can not be referenced by others to review? If the article is availble for review, which it has not been for quite some times, does the article properly justify its conclusions and properly cite the credible sources for those justifications? So until these questions can be addressed I dont feel we should present the material/summary(in "BAPS in Gujurat") in the BAPS article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.81.18.53 (talk • contribs) .

So, then, is your point that information which is presented as factual but doesn't have multiple listed references should be deleted? That's about half of the article. Including:

BAPS is a branch of the Hindu Swaminarayan sect with more than 1,000,000 followers worldwide and a greater presence outside South Asia than any other Hindu group.
According to his followers, Pramukh Swami Maharaj represents the essence of Hinduism, leading an austere life of complete celibacy, without personal wealth or comfort. His compassion for humanity, universal wisdom and striking simplicity have touched many world religious and national leaders as well as ordinary devotees alike.
Part of BAPS' success lies in its approach, which is characteristic of other monotheistic religions — namely their centralization and huge organizational strength, their emphasis on community, their notions of salvation through belief in Sahajanand Swami Maharaj (Lord Swaminarayan) as the supreme Lord, adherence to strict doctrine, and even trace elements of proselytization. Many mainstream Hindus find themselves attracted to this and start identifying with BAPS. Although some see only minor theological implications in such a conversion, others see the doctrinal differences as quite distinct. The fact that BAPS devotees worship Swaminayaran Bhagwan as higher than Sri Ram or Sri Krishna is quite alarming to most traditional Hindus.

I'm all for removing unsourced info. But don't set the bar too high or there won't be any article. Will Beback 02:22, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your second bullet as well as parts of the third bullet above can be cross-referenced through the oragization's website. I would agree with removing the rest of the material above. I would like to point out that the organization(BAPS) should have a say as to what is factual about thier own establishement and beliefs. Im not sure if this classifies as a false analogy but for example the Pope would have more authority about whats factual about how the Catholic church operates and the church's beliefs than a college student writing a thesis paper. In any case, Its not possible to cross-reference any of the material in the "BAPS in Gujurat", so I feel that should also be removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.81.18.53 (talk • contribs) .

...the organization(BAPS) should have a say as to what is factual about thier own establishement and beliefs.

That's an absurd idea. Wikipedia documents both positive and negative aspects of all organizations, including Roman Catholicism, Evangelical Protestantism, Theosophy and gurus such as Sathya Sai Baba. These organizations neither have authority over Wikipedia's content, nor do they offer infallible documentation of their organization. Wikipedia presents BAPS's perspective on itself, but it also presents other perspectives on BAPS. Taking any other course would be to allow Wikipedia to be censored and would virtually be the end of Wikipedia. If you want an article that presents BAPS in only a favorable light, then start your own wiki. — goethean ॐ 15:49, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well that is certainly your opinion. Also I never said any organization has authority over a Wikipedia article. The material presented on a wikipedia article should be neutral. But I think it would be improper just to throw information into an article which cannot be cross-referenced or be verified in anyway in order to create a false sense of neutrality. And in order to be fair, I did say that we should also remove some of the content referenced in the bullets by Will. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.81.18.53 (talk • contribs) .

This really isn't the place for critiques, I don't see critiques of the roman catholic church in the article on catholocism, it would be better if it was placed in the article on hindu nationalism

Reply: There are many article on Roman Catholicsm, including several entire articles of criticism, such as Roman Catholic sex abuse cases, even a whole category, Category:Anti-Catholicism. While it perhaps should also be mentioned in Hindu nationalism, that doesn't mean it should be remoevd from here. -Will Beback 07:14, 14 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

External links

Why are these websites:

constantly being removed without comment? Is there something objectionable about them? -Will Beback 22:39, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Those sites are most likely bieng removed by some member of the sect. I have been told that those sites do not offer any relevant material about BAPS and are not acknowledged on the BAPS website. Those sites merely reference BAPS and are not associated with the organization.

Thanks for the coutesy of a reply. Whoever you are in contact with, please tell them that when editing Wikipedia we have certain policies, one of which is explaining one's edits, especially deletions. Being "acknowledged on the BAPS website" is not a criteria for inclusion here. Your other points are more relevant. -Will Beback 01:19, 29 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello,

I added some links to other Wikipedia articles relating to BAPS (i.e: The article on Pramukh Swami Maharaj, and the article on the Neasden Temple). Hope I've put this comment in the right place!! Dylanpatel 12:13, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]