Jump to content

Talk:Berserk (manga)

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by EnthusiastFRANCE (talk | contribs) at 17:38, 4 May 2006 (→Miura making translation mistake himself). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

What we need on this page

First of all, I'm sorry for having edited this page so radically, but it was useless the way it was. Take a look at the Robotech article; that's the quality this page should aspire to!

    • I find this hard to belive, consitering a search for "mangled" or "butchered" found no results on that page. ;P --Aknorals 09:54, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
      • Robotech biases aside, it's a very informative and thoroughly researched article. Harp Heaven 18:03, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Kenpû Denki Berserk: Literally translated, "剣風伝奇ベルセルク" means "swordwind transmit odd Berserk."
  • The Japanese publisher of the manga books.
    • Jets Comics --Aknorals 11:50, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
      • I found it just before I saw your entry :) Harp Heaven 18:03, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • The time-slots and the TV-channel where they aired at first in Japan and in the States.
    • It never aired in the U.S., as far as I know... the JPN air time was... very late, predawn even.... I'll provide more info when I find it. --Aknorals 11:50, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Awards the manga or anime has won.
  • Separate pages for particular characters, even secondary ones
  • A page dedicated to the unique and perhaps not so unique weaponry in the Miuraverse.
  • Other merchandising than the video-games (card games, miniatures, action figures, the like)
  • Something I've been thinking about is a list of the manga chapters. The Dark Horse editions I have list them as following:
Volume 1
    • The Black Swordsman
    • The Brand
    • The Guardians of Desire, Chapter 1
Volume 2
    • The Guardians of Desire, Chapter 2
    • The Guardians of Desire, Chapter 3
Volume 3
    • The Guardians of Desire, Chapter 4
    • The Guardians of Desire, Chapter 5
    • The Guardians of Desire, Chapter 6
    • The Golden Age, Chapter 1
Volume 4
    • The Golden Age, Chapter 2
    • The Golden Age, Chapter 3
    • The Golden Age, Chapter 4
    • The Golden Age, Chapter 5
    • The Golden Age, Chapter 6
Volume 5
    • The Golden Age, Chapter 7
    • The Golden Age, Chapter 8
    • A Wind of Swords
    • Nosferatu Zodd, Chapter 1
    • Nosferatu Zodd, Chapter 2
    • Nosferatu Zodd, Chapter 3
    • Nosferatu Zodd, Chapter 4
    • Master of the Sword, Chapter 1
Volume 6
    • Master of the Sword, Chapter 2
    • Assassin, Chapter 1
    • Assassin, Chapter 2
    • Assassin, Chapter 3
    • Assassin, Chapter 4
    • Precious Thing
    • Departure for the Front
    • Engagement
    • Casca, Chapter 1
    • Casca, Chapter 2
  • True, we should also get the origional japanese name of the chapters. -- Aknorals 09:54, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    • Yeah, this would be really helpful. If we want to be comprehensive, this is the way to go. Harp Heaven 18:03, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

If someone can go through the Hawks's scanlations and do a similar list, it would be very helpful. Maybe we can exclude the individual chapters under each header. Still, I think it would be a somewhat worthy addition. I'm not really sure if it belongs here or not though. Harp Heaven 12:38, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

  • Just added a link to the list I created. --DragonKore 00:28, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

What we don't need

  • Berserk glorification. I like this series as much as you do, but please, try to have a neutral POV. In case you're wondering, writing "some fans believe", or "fans really like" before your opinion does not constitute having a NPOV. Cut it out.
    • Well, I think an important part of an article about a modern work of fiction is to express why it has fans. But it certianly should only be used when nessecary... although it does give more insight. --Aknorals 09:54, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
      • It doesn't really give more insight if it's just one person writing on behalf of him and his anime messageboard. A proper way to emphasize the popularity or explain why it has fans would be to cite a professional reviewer or a professional survey. Having sentences like "Berserk is popular with a lot of anime fans and is really bloody and gory but also has a lot of psychological insight too" just undermines the credibility of the article and makes us look like a bunch of fourteen-year-old fanboys without a clue. If you could dig up a professional review from someone with clout in the business (not a website or anything similar), feel free to add a quote from it. Harp Heaven 18:03, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Story summaries, plot spoilers and the like, basically anything that has to do with what happens in the manga and anime. This is an encyclopedia article, and it's supposed to be informative. It isn't a fanpage. Take a look at the page for Full Metal Alchemist; it's nearly 46 kb big, and 95% of the content is about events in the anime. This is exactly what we should try to avoid. What should be in the wikipedia article are things relating to the publishing and writing of the manga.
    • Much of that appears to be copyright vio from here. Regardless, if the character section gets too big, we can allways move it to Characters of Berserk. Lets worry about having enough info on the characters first. --Aknorals 09:54, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
      • Ideally, if we are to have a large section devoted to character descriptions, we should make a separate Wikipedia entry on them, like you said. Also, how much is enough info? I would say that giving their background and general role is enough for the article. Harp Heaven 18:03, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    • Spoilers are very important. As are plot summaries. And any article about a modern work of fiction that doesn't have "basically anything that has to do with what happens" in the story is quite pointless. --Aknorals 09:54, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
      • Alright, I give in. I've started writing summaries of each of the manga chapters, this time without bad fanboy writing and spelling mistakes. Stay tuned. Harp Heaven 18:03, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
        • I'm glad you've decided to write something afterall, as I think cutting the entire plot summary was a bit hasty, and I do think it's an appropriate section to have. Of course, I'm biased, because currently, with the plot summary cut, there is no logical reason to link "Behelit" which I had originally written, and which, I think, makes sense as its own entry being an (admittedly fictional) object that people might want to look up information on. --Lord Shitzu 03:03, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
  • Opinions about Miura's storytelling technique, like the deus ex machina element of the skull knight or the excessive comic relief of having Puck and Ishidoro at the same time.
That all sounds very resonable, but I nonetheless think a short summary of the events in the manga is necessary to understand the appeal of this story and the character descriptions below.
E.g.: For the character description of Guts to be useful, it needs to explain his motivations: to protect Caska and to get revenge on Griffith; same for the other main characters Caska and Griffith. But the explanation of their motivations only makes sense in the context of the story.
So a short (no longer than 2/3 sentences for each) description of the main events/story arcs may be in order, namely the Golden Age, the Eclipse and Guts time as the black swordsman. Another option would be a short timeline of events, for which this is a good ressource: [1] -- Xorx77 13:22, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The timeline does not sound like a good idea, but I agree that a short summary of the three major story arcs could be a potentially good option. What irks me with all these Wiki articles on anime is that they are so damn long, and there's very little information on them that I couldn't gather from just reading the manga or watching the anime in question. What is the use of having a story summary? Who reads them except for the person who writes them? I'm not asking rhetorical questions here, I'm genuinely curious as to what their value actually is. Those of us who have seen the anime/read the manga already know what happen. Those who haven't will get the entire plot spoiled. It seems like a pretty useless addition, if you ask me. Harp Heaven 15:38, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Who died?? Seriously. Did this cease to become a Wiki? While I do agree about Opinionated glorification - you do have to realise that Wikipedia is not quite your average encyclopedia and quite often, even in some of the best articles, uses more colourful emotive and descriptive language, while still remaining NPOV (One might even suggest they are great articles due to good usage of this). Mentioning roles, and perceived roles of characters - such as hero, anti-hero, yayoi love interest, comic relief and deus ex etc., are important factors in any story. No less here.
Wikipedia is not Animenfo. People may have conflicting opinions about things; e.g., I have a very negative relationship to Neon Genesis Evangelion, a series that I know is very popular with a lot of people, and thus I would have reacted very strongly if someone added "NGE is considered to be one of the finest examples of anime" in the main article. Who considers it to be so? Who are the "some fans", "many fans", "many" and all the other pseudonyms the authors of Wikipedia articles embrace for their edits? It's completely unnecessary. If you want to highlight the quality of the series, add entries for the awards it has won. If it hasn't won any, then post your reviews on Animenfo or any similar site.
We all agree that Puck is there for comic relief (in Volume 14, I think, Puck even says this himself, "without me the manga would be too dark"). That Skull Knight is a deus ex machina, however, is not something we universally agree upon (I don't think he is), and should not be included. We could add that Griffith eventually becomes the main villain in the story. I agree that it's an important factor, though. Let's try sticking to the accepted. Harp Heaven 15:38, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The main role of the Skull Knight seems to be act mysterous and save people who Miura doesn't want to die yet. If that isn't a deus ex machina, then I'm not sure what is. --Aknorals 09:54, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As I stated before, understanding how the majority and minority of fans persive a series is important to understanding the series itself. I also don't belive that everyone who uses "many fans" is speaking about themeselves. --Aknorals
Your Skull Knight comments are sound, but I'm still not sure whether we should leave it in the article. Since we don't know how it all ends, we really don't have any business adding our opinions about it. NPOV, people, NPOV. Harp Heaven 18:03, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Take a gander at Hamlet#Main_characters: "(Polonius) is a fatuous bore".

Plot spoilers, in terms of a general sense of the action involved, are also encyclopedia norms. We are trying to be comprehensive. This does not mean linking somewhere and saying go here. It means a summary, citing the resource(s) used.--ZayZayEM 14:07, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. Plot spoilers are indeed unavoidable with entries about characters that appear late in the story (Femto being a prime example), but that doesn't mean that we need a large section of this article devoted to a plot summary like Hamlet has, since Berserk and Hamlet are miles apart in terms of cultural and historical relevance. If we are to have a plot summary, I suggest it be done in the way that Xorx77 suggested. No need for vivid descriptions and fanboyisms, keep it short and simple. Harp Heaven 15:38, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Berserk is long. It will get much longer. As it does, it may become difficult for people to rember what happened 10 volumes ago. "Spoilers" can also remind people of what happened. Dismissing spoilers completly seems foolish --Aknorals 11:50, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Another thing we don't are bios for characters who aren't really essential to the storyline. Deceased/inactive characters who bear no personal connection the the group that Guts and Griffith are traveling with have no place in the character page. Or least the main one. What I suggest is Creating a new Berserk page dedicated to the characters who fell by the wayside (Theresia for example), so the main players in the story so far take more prominence in the main Berserk page. Though a "main characters of Berserk" is also a welcome alternative. Martisty 22:19, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kentarou Miura interviews, and things

I'll try collecting a nice list of articles/interviews with Kentarou Miura/about Berserk for both this article and the Kentaro Miura article. -- Philip Nilsson 22:18, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC) -- Please add anything you find here!

Taka (鷹) Translation

I've been thinking about translation "鷹 (Taka)" to Falcon instead of Hawk in the Berserk sections on Wikipedia. I came to this idea from seeing Miura romanize that Kanji to Falcon ("Millennium Falcon: Falconia" in the Katakana about the Kanji in each bi-weekly issue of Berserk in Young Animal) rather then Hawk,(which never appears in the manga). This may be a big deal, as it's commonly accepted that "鷹の団" is translated as "Band of the Hawk" (as opposed to "Falcon's Band/Band of the Falcon") but I think it's worth a discussion since it's a more faithful English translation to what Miura wanted Griffith to be referred to.

    • yeah you're right the CORRECT translation is actually "Falcon" not "Hawk". You're right about "Millenium Falcon" as it's clearly written in small katakana "千年帝国の鷹(ミレニアム・ファルコン)" on top of (or beside written in the same size but between parenthesis) of it's kanji form as a pronunciation hint for Japanese readers (seen on the japanese games covers, OST covers and official sites). "ミレニアム・ファルコン" are only English words written in Japanese for those who don't know katakana. It clearly says "Millenium Falcon" (MILENIAMU-FALUCON), remember Kentaro Miura's an old Star Wars fan right? If you know what i mean! ^^
    • In France, a friend told me they have kept "La Bande des Faucons" (Band of Falcons) instead of "La Bande des Aigles" (Band of Hawks) in the fansub, I'm not sure about the official edition though.
    • They're other mistranslations i think as "Chudder" for "Tudor" (both テューダー/チューダー forms are used in Japan), "Locus" for "Rox", "Rackshas" for "Laxas", "Vandimion" for "Van Dimion" (with the "Van" noble prefix apart), "Irvine" for "Erwin" ("Erving" is another form of Erwin, Erving Goffman for the students outhere) "Behelit" instead of "Beherit" (Hebrew name), "Isidro" instead of "Isidoro" (correct Spanish name), "God Hand" instead of "Hand of God" has translated in the anime's prologue with Void speaking about the "hand of God hovering above" and Void's hand holding a Beherit as still background. I've even noticed some cast name changes in the anime ending credits from an episode to another... "Judeau" could also be "Judeaux" (french name) or "Judeo" ("Judaeo") as they're are many Judaism references and names (Samson, Joachim, Erwin, etc.) in Berserk...
      • "Isidro" is just another derivitation of "Isidoro," of which, both are acceptable. The "Isidro" English spelling for the character is the legitimate translation, according to the character biographies in the Japanese manga. I agree that "Beherit" is a more faithful translation instead of "Behelit" (which has no pre-existing meaning prior to Berserk) & needs to be changed in the main Berserk artile and it's own seperate page (which still needs to be Wikified properly). Martisty 22:19, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • You're probably right for Isidro (there's a city called "san isidro"), however "BEHELIT" (alphabet) is used on the soundtrack CD's backcover. The CD is an offcial product relased by Vap the published of the anime series. So maybe it's "BEHELIT" after all. EnthusiastFRANCE 16:07, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • The other names such as "Locus," "Judeau" & "Irvine" can be debated, though it's unlikely "Rakshas" has any other alternative spelling, as it's a reference to a type of Hindu demon & Miura likes to make references to these sort of things in Berserk. Martisty 22:19, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • I used "Laxias" because it is a latin name (while rakshas mean nothing) and Miura also likes them e.g. "adonis", "yurius" or "adon." i don't known which one is the right tranlstion. 213.228.0.12 15:34, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • They have even officialy used "Ogle" (in English) instead of "Ogre" in the PS2 game, so i guess Berserk's real name (mis)translation is an endless debate my friend! I guess our sons will continue to debate it after us!! ^^ I know it by experience... (talking about Fist of the North Star article) EnthusiastFRANCE 00:34, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • That translation was of the world "Ogre" was from the JPN PS2 Berserk game, which isn't considered cannon with the manga story (Guts finishing Grunberd off, inclusion of other non-manga characters, zero sexually explicit scenes, etc.). Art of War's no better either, (Zoddo, etc.). In essense, I don't trust anything except for what Miura puts down in his Berserk tankōbon. One last thing I forgot to mention: "Vandimion" is an accurate translation. Thereis no break between "Van" & "Dimion". Farnese's family already has a middle intial: "de" (it's sounds like "Do(h)" because of the difference between Japanese and English phonetic structure, but it might not be if Miura ever confirms otherwise). The middle initial can be found in volume 29/30 whenever a Vandimion's full name is being spoken. Martisty 22:15, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • I've just cited "ogle" as an exemple of "official" katakana mistranslation, not considering the game's plot which is another debate. Miura had an overciew of the game since it's a licensed product. What i mean is Miura has possibly made katakana mistranslations himself. Katakana mistranslation are usual in japan and overseas. EnthusiastFRANCE 16:10, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • You are refering to vol.29 chapter 6 page 12 according to skullknight.net however i can't find it in the french fan translate. It seems the circulating scans are based on a japanese translation and that the others are translations of the translation (as red on the french scan credit telling "the front cover cannot be found anywhere..."). It's like the volume is translated from Japanese to Italian than from Itlaian to French than from French to English or whatever order, which ends on a not reliable source at all (without even mentioning fan translaters can make mistakes as well), since i can read "vendemion" on the french translate and "magnifico" which is french common (french -magnifique- and spanish adjective -magnifico- biased) mistranslation from the spanish/italian name "manifico". "magnifico" would be a different katakana with the spelled "G" as in "gamble". Can someone with the japanese original manga could post the URL (you can use the free service www.imageshack.us) of a low-res scan page part bearing the "do vandimion" as a proof please? ^^ (posting a partial screenshot is legal) EnthusiastFRANCE 16:10, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • About "Farnese de Vandimion" ("de" is the middle word for both french and spanish noblemen, "van" is used in belgium so "de" sounds more possible), however it is curious there is not a single google occurence of "ド•ヴァンティミイン" except in the japanese wikipedia (it could have been written by a non-japanese person so it prouves nothing), i'll try to found more about this on the japanese site of berserk or ask a japanese about this, just to be sure. BTW "farnese" seems to be an italian name, (there's also an italian wine). The japanese Wikipedia refers to "vandimion" as vandimion (in katakana) without the "de", it is surprising that an otaku has not corrected it yet. EnthusiastFRANCE 16:10, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • About ミュール "Mule" i've used intentionally used "Muhl" which is a france/belgium used name. The french city "Mulhouse" (mhuelouze, not mu-house) near the german border is derivated from "Muhl". The city's german name is "Mülhausen". Mule is an unimaginative (and english biaised) translation of ミュール, Muhl is based on context and seems far more appropriate for a knight than "mule"... There is alos the "Mühl" german variation, which could be the original form of the one used in france and belgium. i'm seeking for romaji evidence in japanese official sites right now. 213.228.0.12 14:33, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think it's better to use the US Anime/Comic version's terms (wikipedia uniformization) though, because newcomers won't get it. You could create a "Trivia" section and add your info in maybe. The main article definitely needs a trivia section anyway. Just look at the Fist of the North Star article as a reference, i'm sure we still can upgrade the Berserk article! EnthusiastFRANCE 04:52, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Based on a global scale, I believe it's better to be as accurate as possible to the original Japanese (Falcon, not Hawk, Causality, not Fate, etc.) as the American version has taken liberties with Miura's work. It's because of weak translations from scanlators like the Hawks and Evil-Genius that faulty information/stupid theories spread across the internet and that's not what Wikipedia's about. Martisty 22:15, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • I see no objection to use a more accurate independant (neutral) translation rather than the one used by Anime Works on the US edition though. What will be difficult is to agree on the translations which is long and uneasier thing to do. 213.228.0.12 15:38, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Things are not easy because of the various official licensed products bearing romaji mistakes like "Ogle" for "Ogre" (PS2 Japanese game, just an exemple) or variations like "Gats" for "Guts" (Berserk Japanese OST CD). Official Berserk action figures maker (Yamato) Art Of War uses "Hawk Soldiers" just like in the American anime (cf. ending credits) for the Band of the Hawk characters (inc. Griffith). So maybe it's not "falcon" after all, even if this term is used in the European versions. I've noticed different translators in the American Anime, and they seems to have made erroneous translations like "Sulan" for "Slan" and "Yubikku" for "Ubik". The problem is even the Japanese persons under license from Miura don't exactly knows, it would have been a lot easier if Miura has used alphabet as the official names not the katakana which is already an awkward variation of the original names. EnthusiastFRANCE 16:12, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The spellings on the various merchandise outside of the Japanese manga are irrevelent, on account that Miura didn't have complete control over that aspect of his Berserk license. Just because Young Animal/Hakusensha licenses it out for distrubution doesn't mean it got Miura's stamp of approval and be considered official canon in Miura's work. The only thing garenteed to be official are what's in the manga volumes. And why would Miura use anything else but Hiragana in naming his characters? This is a fictional work for a Japanese audiance and doing so would just be out of the question. Martisty 07:09, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Miura didn't have complete control over that aspect of his Berserk license" i completely disagree with this, since the license is based on the use of trademarks and that trademarks are made after the original spelling for the character (Miura's). Using different names than the ones of Miura himself would make the trademarks useless and illigitimate. Try to have a look on Miura's interview about the Anime conversion from his manga and how Miura had control on the plot. It's like George Lucas's control over the merchandise, he (or actually his representatives) can check things. "why would Miura use anything else but Hiragana in naming his characters?" why? because "Charlotte", "Colette", "Gaston" etc are existing european names, so he must have them wrote in alphabet somewhere (in his character/location studies) as they are not familiar with Japanese persons. He could share them with license clients. What i think is Miura has made katakana-to-alphabet translation mistakes himself. "This is a fictional work for a Japanese audiance" yes but the Japanese often uses english "in the text" words just because english writing/sounding is "cool" for the japanese. Exemple, Susumu Hirasawa use the english word "FORCES" as the gimmick for his japanese songs and these songs are made for a japanese audience, therefore according to you it should have been the japanese word. Other exemples are alphabet is used for "Berserk" (while BERUSERUKU katakana is used for the manga) on the video release for Japan, the japanese-only video games use english (alphabet), and japanese market licensed products uses english (alphabet) as well (ART OF WAR figures have the character name written in english). EnthusiastFRANCE 16:45, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Actually, if you want to be independant to the English version, there are some changes to be made. From what we hear in the Japanese anime, using "Doldorey" would be more accurate than using "Doldrey", same for "Rickeruto" not "Ricket" and we also should use "Gatsu" instead of "Guts". In Italy they use "Pack" not the English "Puck". It's quite puzzling and almost unsolvable. EnthusiastFRANCE 04:00, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Basing official Berserk info on the anime is a mistake, as it's not official part of Miura's original work, but an adaptation of it. The way "Doldrey" is pronounced in Japanese ("Dorudorei/ドルドレイ") is because of the way the Japanese language is structured. Ditto for every else you mentioned about the names. And "Gatsu" is the wrong spelling for "Guts" name: Miura officially stated how to spell Guts' name in Western alphabet at the beginning of each tankoubun starting with # 27. It's not unsolvable at all. Martisty 07:09, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • can you post a partial scan of the japanese original page (too many fanscans are circulating) you mentioned please? (you can use the free www.imageshack.us service). I'm like Saint-Thomas d'Aquin, i like to see with my own eyes instead of trusting speeches. I'd like to be sure that's all. EnthusiastFRANCE 16:50, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • It's true that Berserk needs a trivia section (for references mostly and influences), but I still vote a more faithful translation of what the 鷹 Kanji. Plus, I don't the way Dark Horse/Media Blasters translates certain elements in the Berserk manga/anime. When viewing the original manga/anime and comparing the translations Dark Horse/Media Blasters have used, there are consistent errors (besides the sporadic misspellings, there are the noun translations of "Beherit" "Casca" and so forth); most notable in the manga, the lack of a reference to Causality; Inga ritsu (Causality Law/因果律) is a hinderance. Causality, not Fate, is the main principle Miura plays with in Berserk and there is an inherent difference between the two. Causality has an ideology of "cause and effect", while Fate is more an end result regardless. In other words, Causality in principle has a projected path to arranging things (such as Guts encountering Isidro, Farnese and Serpico right after he tried to rape Casca under the Beast's influence) to happen in a certain way. There's an implied choice in the matter, whereas Fate is in itself, inevitable and static. Martisty 22:19, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Now that you mentioned First of the North Star", why does that link (and now the one to "Bastard!") keep popping up in the Berserk section? I know Miura was exposed to "FotNS" in the 1980s, but I can't say there's any other connection between the two other then they're violent nature and romanticized independent ideals. "Bastard!" is even more confusing as, besides the medieval background and violence, there's not much relating it to Berserk either. I propose having thoese references removed, as they don't add anything in explaining Berserk. You might as well throw in "Record of Lodoss War" or "Lord of the Rings" into the "Similarities" subcatory too. There are non-anime works which at least are worth mentioning (in a future Trivia section), such as Flesh and Blood; it has a stronger association with Berserk then the other titles I mentioned, as Miura stated it at least influenced his work. Martisty 22:19, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • How can we have both the official US names, katakana, and REAL translation names together without messing the characters section? Do you have any technical idea on how to do that? Maybe a separated article.
      • the way things are set up now (Official name, Katakana & pronounciation) work fine. Martisty 22:15, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • Look at the character section... now look at WP:MOS-JA See something wrong? It's been bothering me for a while, but I never got around to it... I'll fix it in a little bit if someone else doesn't get to it first... (making the names conform to how the naming conventions for Japanese language are supposed to look, for those that don't get at what I'm talking about) - Aknorals 12:10, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Good to read your note about Causality and Fate. Maybe the Fatum (actually "God hovering above") aspect is traditionally within European (American) culture and is part of the Greek tragedy tradition. Maybe this is one of the reason why the American publisher has adapted (localized) the Berserk overview with the religious (fate) aspect in mind, if you ask me. Beside there's this old European saying "translating is betraying"...
        • I was sure you will talk to me about Lodoss War! ^^ Ok man you're probably right, i'll remove it until the Trivia section is started. I still think Bastard!! is closer to Berserk than ROLW, to me Record of Lodoss War is more in the LOTR classic tradition and rather different in term of graphic style and mature elements and violence. There is really nothing more than the "Pippin" and the "Ant" (animated tree) references in Berserk explicitely inherited from LOTR. But all right.
          • I always figured that Bastard!! was a game of D&D gone horribly horribly wrong... of course, the same may be said of Slayers so... -Aknorals 11:38, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • Also: Bastard's take on realism as it relates to fantasy is nearly opposite how berserk deals with realsim... I mean really, spells per day? Same goes with historical references here... -Aknorals 12:17, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
            • Berserk nor Bastard!! have nothing to do with Slayers's graphical style! nor Vaelber Saga (nor Clamp's work) if you've in mind to quote all classic HF manga... Noboteru Yuki's character design is more kawai style oriented and is far less "noir" than Berserk/Bastard!!. Talking about "elves", "trolls" and "undead" et caetera in Berserk is true to historical fact, "realism" speaking... Berserk is Heroic Fantasy work as well as Bastard!! this is not History Miura himself has stated there were a lot of anachronisms and he only likes and uses what looks cool! 213.228.0.86 20:37, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • The reason i would like "Hokuto No Ken" to be mentioned here is to introduce the series to newcomers searchin' for something in the vein of Berserk. Even if Miura doesn't talk about it, it's pretty obvious Hokuto No Ken's "ultraviolent" style has inspired Berserk, not talking about the Guts/Ken physical ressemblance. But you're right, there are many others references worthy to be mentioned in the fututre Trivia section including "Conan The Barbarian" and Rudger Hauer .
        • About "Falcon" i've checked a few international official sites for the US Berserk article update i've made today and it seems "Hawks" is only used in America. The German uses "Falken" and the Spanish "Halcon" both are meaning "Falcon". Maybe George "TM" Lucas doesn't wanna hear about Millenium Falcon!! ^^

EnthusiastFRANCE 23:58, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone for a Biblic themes section? ^^

There are plenty of religious references appearing in Berserk from the "Golden Age" to the "Mandragora" (Berserk game) to the "Beherit" and "Samson". Does anyone would like to work a short section dedicated to this? EnthusiastFRANCE 15:28, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • A Trivia Section would be better. These references, while having some passing resemblence to their source name ("makara" for example being a Hindu sea monster), don't go much deeper then that. I know people have cited a passing resemblence between the Holy See in Berserk and the Vatican in the real world, but these two don't have much to do with one another besides being an influencial religious organization. Truth is, there aren't even churches in the Berserk world, but temples as the Kanji "寺" (temple) is used throughout the story. Martisty 22:19, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I was not asking for a huge section you know, a trivia "Religion Symbol" paragraph would be ok. You're pretty right about the churches, actually I was thinking of a more vast religious aspect, not only Catholiscm, you've pointed the truth but there's an important church and a Sister in the mandragora infested village if you remember the Dreamcast game. A religious references short inventory will be perfect actually.
      • Those references in the game (which may not even be canon in the manga) are only suferficial, like the "father" in the church-like building in Enoch village. Martisty 07:09, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • i disagree with this, and see the game just like an OAV and as a valueable extension of Berserk created with Miura's overview. A more implicit reference to religion is the word "baptism" used in the episode 24 of the anime though. EnthusiastFRANCE 16:59, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've completed the name translations in the Japanese Berserk article today, maybe you can check it and correct the mistakes i've made. I'm pretty sure Japanese users will do it anyway, they're very strict, much more than here, from what i've experienced. I'm even expecting a sys operator to do a "revision" and undo my work! ^^EnthusiastFRANCE 23:58, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've seen the translations and I'd rather they be left out completely except for what Miura has confirmed. In the end, I'm sure what you said (someone else editing) will happen. Martisty 07:09, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"I'd rather they be left out completely" thank you! how sweet of you, that mean my translations are completely wrong and implies that YOU knows the good ones... but that you don't want to write them ("check it and correct the mistakes i've made")!! = pff! easy speaking and lies. Moreover if "Miura has confirmed" something why don't you post some scans or your sources. I'd rather you'd have said nothing instead of writing such bullshits and that you made new things for the articles instead of being all speak. It's curious to notice how the english article has not changed since the last time i've worked on it while there are many new stuff to do! EnthusiastFRANCE 15:53, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • "I'm sure what you said (someone else editing) will happen". Actually 2 days before this message was written... an American boy from Sonoma, California (i will accuse nobody!!) has edited my translations (a Japanese guy from Osaka has come after me and did no change to my translations though). The Californian was not a registered member of the Japanese Wikipedia and the only thing he has ever done on the JP wiki was to edit my translations. I mean there is no proof that he did legitimate corrections over my translation. What I made was a correction from "Guston" (american surname) to "Gaston" (fench name) which is more plausible and used in the US Anime and made 50 translations. The American has changed 21 of them (that makes 29 -the majority- accurate!) including many subjective arguable changes like "Grunbeld" to "Grunberd", "Erika" to "Erica", "Godeaux" to "Godot", "Silat" to "Sirat", "Volkoff" to "Borkoff" (while V=B & R=L w/being the french translate and "Borkoff" the english for the Russian "Волков", the most accurate being probably "Volkov"), "Voss" (Voss coming from a 60's BBC SF TV series w/the "Minister Voss" character) to "Foss", "Laban to Raban", "Vargaas" to "Vargas" or "Boscorn" (the "corn" was a reference to the "Rhino Knights"!) to "Boscone". These changes are subjectives because both translations are acceptable for the katakana spelling (R=L, V=B, K=C, V=F, etc.) and there is no proof that these "corrections" are more accurate. After all i've seen Japanese fans spelling "Godo", "Hannah", "Fosse", "Silatt", "Judaux", "Vandhimion", "Roch" (for "Rox"/"Locus") etc. Other subjective arguable corrections are "Jill" (english name) over "Gilles" (french name) and "Mule" (animal name coming drom the french word "Mule") over "Muhl" (french name) as many french names are used in Berserk e.g. "Colette", "Charlotte" or "Gaston" and "Balzac" (from Honoré de Balzac famous french author) or even "Charles" (with the french pronunciation and it's specific mute "s" hence the official "チャールル"! not the english form which has a totally different katakana "チャールズ" from the "CHAARLZ" pronunciation) in the games. This is why i would like someone here to post Miura's so called "official statements" about the "correct" katakana translation for the characters. Thanks for the scan & post. I've started the #Official romaji (alphabet use) for Berserk thread w/verifiable official sources for this purpose. EnthusiastFRANCE 15:16, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

24.155.106.103 reverted vandalism (removed manga gallery)

Don't you have better things to do than mess in the article? The manga gallery is here to show the title's graphism variation. It has been inspired by the Star Wars bonus dvd's international promo gallery. As an encyclopedia, this brief international gallery is legitimated here, the article is not about "Berserk in America" but a neutral Berserk (in the world) article written in English. EnthusiastFRANCE 01:18, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Berserk infobox template request

I tried to make an infobox as seen in the Naruto thing footpage. Thought it was an auto process gathering all links in a special layout, but it didn't worked out. Seems like it is necessary to create a specific template... EnthusiastFRANCE 16:29, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've created a template at Template:Berserk_info. If you want to see how the Naruto template was implemented go to Template:Naruto_info. To append it to the end of the article, put in {{Berserk info}}. I didn't populate it cause I don't really know what you have in mind for it. --Miss Ethereal 17:04, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Berserk Article Getting Way Too Cluttered

This article has improved a lot since I last saw it, but it's getting way too cluttered. Things need to be split up and removed (including some of the stuff in the infoboxes). Soundtracks don't need to be placed in the infobox (there's a section devoted to that already in the "World of Berserk" section and the links in the infobox are generally reserved for links to wikipedia articles (at least that's my understanding). There is also a size warning on this article. --Miss Ethereal 17:33, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • too long? yeah, maybe a little bit (all good articles are too long anyway). BTW the 138KB Japanese article is way longer! LOL (and there's not a single picture there because of a specific legal issue). "cluttered"? Ok i'll remove the soundtrack in the infobox and replace the trading card game URL. I've used the URL instead of a blank wikilink because of the article not being created yet (it definitely needs to be made). In other hand, there should be some grammar mistakes here and there and some approximative ("Frenglish") phrases must be rewritten in a proper English, as this is not my language (i also use the French punctuation which is probably slightly different than the English one). The article will be splitted up for sure, the recent extensions were made for it (World of Berserk gives the direction). EnthusiastFRANCE 18:32, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lighter infobox. EnthusiastFRANCE 18:39, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • By leaps and bounds the English Berserk Wikipedia article has improved substantially (inclusion of Berserk globally instead of just in Japan and America). Just fix up the infobox at the end and the article can look truly professional. However, it is indeed very cluttered and needs to be broken down. But it's definitely getting there. Martisty 22:15, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Seconded. The character section needs to move to it's own page, ASAP. A shorter summary of some of the more important characters (guts, griffith, casca, and some of the newer "family" members such as Isidro and whonot) should be kept on the main page, for reasons of nessity, etc. The "world of berserk" part looks like it might make a good template... (‽) Eventually we can do all sorts of other stuff with the characters, such as lists by faction, cronological introduction, or some of the main characters could get their own article e.g. Guts (Berserk), but for now, we should move the character section to it's own article.... Aknorals 11:56, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Individual character profile ?

I think we could split the characters section into several articles, using the Initial D CHR article as a basic reference. The main/secondary characters short bio could be enhanced with a picture (anime/manga) per character, an alternative name (ex:"Irvind"/"Erwin", "Chuder"/"Tudor"), weapon, status (general/noble/mercenary/elf), possible/known reference for the name ("Pippin" LOFTR, "God Hand CHR" from novels, Balzac from the French author, Minister Voss is appearing in a popular 60's SF BBC series) and CHR inspiration (Guts/Rudger Hauer) from Miura's statements (or argumented highly possible). Also, some special morphing CHR could have their two appearances (GutsTeen/BlackSwordsman,Puck/ChibiPuck, NosferatuZodd/ApostleZod, etc.).

The actual article could be split up as following (inspired from the japanese article):

  • Main CHR (profile): Guts (Black Swordsman), Griffith (reborn), Casca (amnesic)
  • Secondary CHR: those not going in any of the following subsections (appearing in the anime/manga, ex: Gambino)
  • Manga CHR (profile): Puck, Evarella, Schierke, etc (those not appearing in the anime)
  • Secondary Manga CHR (profile): Skull Knight, Flora, etc (the "lesser" importance characters, not the minor -like "Colette" in the anime-, they're too much of them)
  • Original CHR (profile): Balzac, Rita, Charles

GROUPS (profile)

  • God Hand CHR: you know who
  • Band of the Hawk: Corcus, Pippin, Judeau, Rickert, Guts (teen), Casca (teen), Griffith (teen)
  • New Band of the Hawk: Zodd, Grunbeld, etc.
  • House Vandimion: Farnese, Federico, Serpico, etc

MIDLAND NOBLE (profile)

  • Charlotte, the king, the queen, yurius, adonis, etc
  • minister Foss, Raban, etc

TUDOR MAIN CHR (profile)

  • Baron Adon, Shogun Boscon, Gouvernor Guenon, Samson

KUSHAN MAIN CHR (profile)

  • Ganishka, Thapasa, etc

Let me know what do you think of it. EnthusiastFRANCE 08:15, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • All that is too much to do right now: start off small & leave out the immense content, (nations, classes, etc.) for later. Focus on just creating a seperate page for the significant characters of Berserk before branching off. I also fixed a few misspellings (Kushans, not Khusians, etc.) Martisty 22:15, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I mostly agree with you people, i know it's a dirty job, but someone's gotta to do it.
    • Actually it's not "Kushan" but "Khushian", Kushan is the English pronunciation (this is your own katakana form ^^), i used the original tadjik word as found on the japanese google. I also found "Kusyan" on the japanese official site of Berserk, BUT ^^ even the Japanese uses different romanizations of their katakana, as described in the Hepburn romanization article. Using Kushan for Khushian is like using "Italy" for "Italia", katakana words doesn't have english origins (even if it's probably the majority in the modern Japanese) exemple "Pan" for bread which is the Spanish word. Same thing for "Gilles" (french name) or "Jill" (english name) or "Volkoff" or "Borkov", the translation of the Russian "off" or "ov" or "ev" or "eff" is not same in all countries. For exemple we (French) use "Gorbatchiov" (or "Gorbatchev") when you (English) use "Gorbachev", or "Oussama Ben Laden" when you use "Usama Bin Laden", what i mean, is we both have to take care of this matter of fact and try to be neutral, as the Japanese katakana is independant from both the French and the English or the Italian or whatsever pronunciation. EnthusiastFRANCE 04:25, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • I type it in that spelling to conform to the English standards on the English Wikipedia page (Kushans links to the article on the empire, whereas Khushian goes nowhere). By the way パン/Pan is taken from the Cantonese word "Pão," the bun. Martisty 07:09, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • i see your practical use but you can use the write right word and link to another wikilink as ((Kushan|Khushian)) (replacing the parenthesis by brackets). We have to define which word has to be used between the English (true/highly possible) translation, English (comic/anime) official translation or the (thought) original word (talking about the katakana form refers to), this is just like character names. "Khushan" leads to nothing on google, but "khushian" leads to many things including www.khushian.com and in the japanese wikipedia it leads to クシャーナ朝 in the India/Iran/Pakistan area. Khushian is a popular indian name, there are artist and author named khushian (as pointed by google). Here's the "Kusyan" image i mentioned before "Kusyan" on the japanese official site. "Kusyan" is a possible romanization of "Kushian" not "Kushan". The "Kushan" referred sites are english speaking (australia, canada etc.) or french speaking. The Khushian era is designate in Japan as "クシャーン時" with the "シャーン meaning "shian" or shan because of the "シャ" (sya, shia or sha).
        • パン pan is portugese (and spanish) for "bread", french is "pain" . The cantonese simply use the portugese word as well. "Pão" is the portugese word for bread (with the portuguese accent)... Pan and Pao were both introduced in Asia by the portuguese. As you probably know, the portuguese sailors did trade with Taiwan ("Formose" in europe) and the island was known as "Ilha Formosa" which is the portugese word for beautiful... and the portuguese were trading with the japanese as well, in the kyushu area, and then introduced the "pan" there. 213.228.0.86 13:42, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Berserk in Sweden

Sorry Wakuran, you're right the edition available in Sweden is actually the US import (just like in the UK). My source was Berserk in Sweden, it's only available in the Sverige section. They used either "Haftad", either "Pocket" which latter is a book format. Thanks for correcting! ^^ I've also removed the line refering to it in the paragraph. It's pretty bizarre they don't publish Berserk in Scandinavia since berserk is a norsk word. Is there anyone from UK out there? I'm still surprised Berserk is not published locally by Penguin Books ^^ or by one of its alike. EnthusiastFRANCE 03:32, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

World of Berserk

  • i've added the "100 Years War" reference (historical notion) which is mentioned in the japanese article and has been pointed and kind of studied a while ago in the french article.
  • I found another Biblic reference "Baptism" in the anime so i've added it, and i've splitted the dictionnary into history/religion/philosophy/geography. I think i've heard "koroshi" (murder) which is closer to "sacrifice" than baptism, but someone pointed before me, the US publisher has taken some liberties with the original work. I'll watch the episode again tomorrow to be sure (i have the US edition w/english sub not the french one). If it's koroshi, it doesn't matter, the theology term will be "sacrifice" instead. In Italia the episode is named "Il Sacrifico" (the sacrifice) i don't remember about the English one, i don't think it's "sacrifice" though. Using "baptism" for "murder" is a vivid exemple of what i've pointed (on a previous topic) as a cultural adaptation (localization) due to religion. I mean it's not a mistranlation... there are japanese (by their name!) pro translators, i mean they know the difference between "koroshi" and "jossen" or "senren" (japanese words for baptism) right? or maybe changing a "violent" word by another one "softer" is part of a mild censorship. I let you make your mind by yourself.
  • Actually i've used "theology" instead of "religion" (the biblic references i have pointed on a previous topic) mainly because i like "y" ending words ^^ (so there are all sounding the same it's pretty cool!) but also because it's a wider concept allowing us to host not properly "religious" notions such as beherit (look for its hebrew meaning). I repeat i've created the World of Berserk section a few days ago as a stub, i made it quickly, with rough wikilinks etc. It's up to us, to add terms and refine it all together. So don't be shy, you can add your own notions, we'll setting up things later. Splitting up the dictionary will make easier searches. EnthusiastFRANCE 04:47, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Possible inspiration for Berserk's Conrad

I don't think it has been pointed out by someone else before (though it is possible), here's what could be the inspiration for Conrad. Terry Giliam's 1985 (UK) cult SF/comedy/noir Brazil movie (nice one and cult music for the younglings whose haven't watched it, including Japanese culture references like Conrad-like mask or the samourai). The Berserk proto and the volume were released few years before so it is a possible source of inspiration (as Miura is into UK SF) worthy to be mentioned on the upcoming character profile i guess.

  1. Conrad - Anime (Berserk)
  2. Brazil - capture (Terry Gilliam's)
  3. Brazil - enhanced screen (Terry Gilliam's)

EnthusiastFRANCE 16:17, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Official romaji (alphabet use) for Berserk

  • SOURCE
  1. Berserk DC game (japanese edition)
  2. Berserk PS2 game (japanese edition)
  3. Yamato ART OF WAR figures (inbox products only)
  4. Toys R US products (Japanese line)
  • EVIDENCE
  1. "Zodd (Human Form)"
  2. "Black Swordsman"
  3. "Griffith Hawk soldiers"

Practicing katakana with Puck: Berserk Typing game

feel free to add your own references to this list in order to help wikipedians producing a reliable Berserk character name translation. EnthusiastFRANCE 18:12, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

False belief about Miura not controlling the Berserk license

  • K.M.-<"I could've just let the studio staff do the work, but I gave some advice on the outlines of the character designs. But my main concern was the scripts. They'd send me the scripts and I'd revise them and make changes. I checked all scripts, and made a lot of changes and requests on all of them. I bet the writers hated me.
  • Jour.-But that's natural, that's how much you care about your show.
  • K.M.-Yeah, I guess that's about it.">

taken from a transcription of Kentaroh Miura official interview DVD (Berserk US Anime publisher) EnthusiastFRANCE 14:31, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • <"if we're told to call a character "Knight of Skeleton" or "Phil Knight" or "Red Skelton", we're obliged to do it.">

taken from a Chris Warner Dark Horse official message (Berserk US Comic publisher) EnthusiastFRANCE 14:45, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Miura making translation mistake himself

  • "Miura had an overview of the game since it's a licensed product. What i mean is Miura has possibly made katakana mistranslations himself. Katakana mistranslation are usual in japan and overseas" (EnthusiastFRANCE quote in reference to the following)

EnthusiastFRANCE 14:53, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    • "Knight of Skeleton" definitely is an odd wording, as the translator pointed out to me, but the issue is not the translation. The licensor specifically asked for "Kinght of Skeleton," even though the translator, Duane Johnson, thought that "Skull Knight" was the correct call. When the licensor makes this kind of request, we do it. SOURCE:taken from a message of Chris Warner Dark Horse official (Berserk US Comic publisher)

EnthusiastFRANCE 14:53, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    • Ogle (alphabet) is officially used on the PS2 game probably for (as "R" sounds like "L" for a Japanese) "Ogre" (OHGRR') with the french spelling which is pronunced "OHGR'" hence the specific katakana "オーグル" (also used in the japanese article). Instead of the english word which is based on the same spelling "Ogre" (coming from the french word) but with a whole different pronunciation: "HOGGER" which katakana is "オーガ".

SOURCE:Capture from the PS2 game showing the katakana "Ogre" (オーグルです!!)/"Ogle" (alphabet) EnthusiastFRANCE 16:00, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

French spelling used over the English one

The french is also used over the english with the "Charles" character as confirmed by the official katakana spelling "チャールル" (w/its mute "S") over the english "Charles" ending with a "Z" sound hence the different katakana "チャールズ". 

game scan is coming soon!

EnthusiastFRANCE 16:00, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Berserk_(manga)&oldid=51552124"