Talk:Winter Soldier Investigation/Archive 2

First entry in this Talk page

In fact, some of the claims of systematic military atrocities made outside of the "Winter Soldier Investigation" can't be confirmed, and some of the participants of other inquiries are alleged to be frauds. To date, none of the actual Winter Soldier Testimonies have been refuted.

From "America in Vietnam" by Guenter Lewy, pp.317:

"Many of the veterans, though assured that they would not be questioned about atrocities they might have committed personally, refused to be interviewed. One of the active members of the VVAW told investigators that the leadership had directed the entire membership not to cooperate with military authorities. A black Marine who agreed to be interviewed was unable to provide details of the outrages he had described at the hearing, but he called the Vietnam War "one huge atrocity" and "a racist plot." He admitted that the question of atrocities had not occurred to him while he was in Vietnam, and that he had been assisted in the preparation of his testimony by a member of the Nation of Islam. But the most damaging finding consisted of the sworn statements of several veterans, corroborated by witnesses, that they had in fact not attended the hearing in Detroit. One of them had never been to Detroit in all his life. He did not know, he stated, who might have used his name."

July 2004 Protection

The page was protected for a time period during the 2004 Democratic National Convention. (Relevant comments found in User talk:SEWilco moved here.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Protected_page#Pages_protected_due_to_edit_wars_or_vandalism : "Info being deleted and meanings reversed by multiple anonymous editors."

The temporary protection was mainly needed to reduce the amount of chaff being generated this election season. John Kerry's recent presidential campaign has drawn attention to his past activities. Emotional editing should lessen in a few months, after the big Boston TV party, the NYC TV party and scheduled debates end. -Rob (14:15, 8 Aug 2004 165.247.222.82)

The temporary protection was mainly needed to reduce the amount of chaff being generated this week. John Kerry's recent military campaign has drawn attention to his past activities. Emotional editing should lessen in a few days now that the big Boston TV party has ended. -- (SEWilco 14:25, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC))

Could you characterize the nature of the changes needing protection? What meaning has been reversed? Thanks! Cecropia | Talk 17:05, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

See my history comments during past two weeks for summary of changes. -- (SEWilco 04:39, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC))

Talk: Disputed allegation of phonies in the Winter Soldier Investigation

As one of the 'anonymous' editors Winter Soldier Investigation, perhaps I can shed a little light on the recent edit issues. Of particular interest to me was SEWilco's inclusion of a whole page of names of "phonies" - people that had, in various ways, lied about aspects of their Vietnam War involvement. SEWilco cites 2 books (Stolen Valor and America in Vietnam - copies of which I have sitting before me) as the source of these names and fabrications. While I don't dispute the existence of the fabrications, they have nothing to do with Winter Soldier.

Not a single "phony" mentioned gave testimony at Winter Soldier - a fact that is easily verifiable by doing a search for the names in the congressional record of the testimonies (see the link to testimonies on the Winter Soldier Investigation page). However, SEWilco not only listed phonies, but falsely implied they were involved with Winter Soldier through headers like: "Phony Vietnam Vets around Winter Soldier."

Since SEWilco seemed persistant about re-inserting Vietnam Vet Phonies in one way or another, I stopped editing out a sample handful of names, and instead inserted text to make clear that those named 'phonies' had nothing to do with Winter Soldier. (I still feel their inclusion under this topic is inappropriate and misleading.) Note: I left mentions of Hubbard and Lane intact, since they were involved in the organization of Winter Soldier - though they too did not testify in it. -Rob

I listed identified phonies related to WS. Lane's previous collection of phony veterans seems relevant to his VVAW job of collecting similar people. The summary of the military investigation did not specify which of the participants were identified as phony, so we don't have their false names -- has their report been found yet? Military investigators finding that some participants gave false names si quite relevant -- disputed edits said merely the impostors "had the same names", but investigators would have been able to confirm specific individuals because they actually identified themselves by name, age, hometown, rank, role, and unit. -- (SEWilco 04:39, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC))

"I listed identified phonies related to WS."

Please list how each is "related" to Winter Soldier, specifically. You will not be able to, because there is no relationship. The names that were deleted have nothing to do with Winter Soldier. The remaining 4 names that were not deleted also have nothing to do with Winter Soldier Testimony - but I left those as a representative example that phonies did indeed exist in those years. (Though why you insist on injecting that information under the irrelevant topic of Winter Soldier evades me. Well, actually, I know damn well why it was done...)

I believe I inserted those with a relationship.

SEWilco - We're still waiting for the relationships to Winter Soldier. Still avoiding this?

Busy with other relationships. While you're waiting can you add more details about the verification of records by Lane? Did he also verify the referenced German soldier? -- ((SEWilco?) 06:16, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC))

Sure. "Mark Lane subsequently substantiated the veracity of his interviewees, but that isn't mentioned by Burkett..." [2] I have no clue what German soldier you speak about... -Rob

I already read the "substantiated the veracity" sentence, but repeating it does not "add more details". Schneider's father, the German soldier. In Vietnam, the commanding officer in Eleventh Cavalry Regiment. Read around the Fonda/Lane picture. -- (SEWilco 14:24, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC))

Doesn't seem to need "more details." It was clear enough to me. As for the German - did he give testimony at Winter Soldier Investigation? If so, give me the name and I'll look him up. If not, he (or she) probably isn't worth investigating, since we're dealing with the Winter Soldier Investigation here. -Rob

What are the details of the veracity verification of Michael Schneider? "Later on in Mr. Lane's book you will meet Michael Schneider. ... "Your father is a colonel in Vietnam?" Mr. Lane asks. "Right. Full colonel. Commanding officer in Eleventh Cavalry Regiment now." Schneider goes on to tell you that his father once worked for the notorious Nazi armor commander, Gen. Heinz Guderian." -- (SEWilco 03:43, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC))

As for the German - did he give testimony at Winter Soldier Investigation? If not, he (or she) probably isn't worth investigating, since we're dealing with Winter Soldier Investigation here. -Rob

I included the list from Lane but misattributed to Winter Soldier and I pointed out that common error. I left a summary of them so I wouldn't delete information, so it was clear what type of expertise was being used, and so it was clear which names were being referred to. (Note that I did not mention Levy's other activities, as they are not factually related and I haven't seen an authoritative study of his behavior.) -- (SEWilco 07:14, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC))

Some of those listed weren't even part of Mr. Lane's earlier research. Removed again. Might consider creating a seperate Wikipedia entry for Lane's earlier literary works and interviews to keep things straight. -Rob

"Lane's previous collection of phony veterans..." ...should be discussed under a Wikipedia entry aptly named for Lane's book, Conversations with Americans, and not introduced under the Winter Soldier entry. -Rob

Oh, good. Add a crossreference for more those needing more detail. --(SEWilco?)

Naww, you do it. I'm busy squelching propaganda.

As for the often cited Military Investigation, here are the facts: An investigation was requested by Senator Mark O. Hatfield, of the allegations specifically by or against the Marines - a small subset of those that testified. This much is a matter of public (congressional) record. Lewy, in his book, claims an investigation was done by Naval Investigative Service (page 317) and cites as his source: Office of the Director, Judge Advocate Division, Headquarters USMC, Winter Soldier Investigation files. Contacting them regarding this matter has revealed that such an investigation does not, and furthermore did not exist. Feel free to confirm this (they are quite helpful, but be prepared to be transfered a couple times):

Head, FOIA/PA Branch OJAG (Code 13) or (Code 15) 1322 Patterson Ave SE, Suite 3000 Washington Navy Yard, DC 20374-5066 (703) 604-8208

When Burkett (author of "Stolen Valor") was interviewed about the specifics of the Winter Soldier information, he said he was citing Lewy's book. When asked if he (Burkett) ever saw this investigation report, he said he hadn't, and he was unable to obtain a copy, so he relied on Lewy's information as accurate. -Rob

Thanks. Gee, now we can all ask the same person to not find the same thing. Too bad Senator Hatfield's archives are not public. (SEWilco)

Lewy does make a factual statement, however, on page 316: "Lane's book had received a highly critical review ... by Neil Sheehan, who was able to show that some of the alleged witnesses of Lane's war crimes had never even served in Vietnam ... To prevent the Detroit hearing from being tainted by such irregularities, all of the veterans testifying fully identified the units in which they had served and provided geographical descriptions of where the alleged atrocities had taken place." Funny, that last part never seems to make it into citations of Lewy. Go figure. Lewy admits this prior to describing his questionable investigation report that doesn't seem to exist.

The VVAW said, and says, the same thing. http://www.vvaw.org/faq/#10 (SEWilco)

Final note before I toss tyhe ball back in your court: Lane's job wasn't to "collect similar people." In fact, due to the controversy surrounding his prior book, he was kept quite seperate from that process. -Rob

Quick addition by Rob

Just a quick addition... As mentioned above, Burkett can't verify the existance of the Naval Investigation report - he says to see Lewy. Now, to add to the hilarity, it seems Lewy can't verify where this "Investigation Report" tripe comes from, either. See this article:

-- In an interview, Lewy termed the Winter Soldier project "completely unreliable and untrustworthy" and doubts that Vietnam War atrocities were officially condoned or as widespread as the Detroit testimony indicated.

Lewy said he does not recall if he saw a copy of the naval investigative report or was briefed on its contents. "I'm quite confident the information is authentic," he said. Paul O'Donnell, a spokesman for the Naval Criminal Investigative Service, said officials were searching for a copy of the report.

Bobby Muller, president of the Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation and a Marine Corps veteran of the war, worked with the Vietnam Veterans Against the War. He stands by the Winter Soldier project and was unaware of any investigation that called into question the truthfulness of the participants.

The rest of the article is here: http://www.bushcountry.org/news/feb_news_pages/n_022304_kerry_soldier_anti-war.htm

As a final note, you DID know that author Burkett and President Bush are co-chairmen of the Texas War Memorial, and long time drinkin' buddies, right? Not that this means anything, during this election season... -Rob

C. Alan Hopewell on Jim Weber's Testimony

C. Alan Hopewell, former Chief of Psychology Service for the Mental Hygiene Clinic for Fort Jackson as well as Moncrief Army Hospital.
Post Chief Psychologist C. Alan Hopewell, Ph.D. (Former Major, MSC, USAR) says he doesn't recall seeing official documentation detailing such training such as mentioned in Weber film clip, nor did he encounter references to such from Fort Jackson's staff nor community. [3]
Jim Weber is a "scruffy, befuddled individual making a number of outrageous claims," according to C. Alan Hopewell, former Chief of Psychology Service for the Mental Hygiene Clinic for Fort Jackson as well as Moncrief Army Hospital. Hopewell arrived at Fort Jackson a decade after Weber took basic training there. Basing his comments on a heavily edited and incomplete testimony on a film clip, he stated he had "never heard one single statement similar to those Mr. Weber claimed of his training" from working with hundreds or thousands of recruits, staff, and records. In addition to working with much of the staff, Hopewell reviewed training files and programs going back years throughout the entire 1960's and doesn't recall seeing anything officially documented that would incriminate the trainers. Not in training records, procedures, medical records, training cadre, mental health team, nor the Chaplains. -- (SEWilco)
Mr. Webers claims regarding his basic training consisted of: "my complete moral worth was completely destroyed. I mean I was a worthless human being. The worst thing that you can be in the military is to be called a civilian. And so they had to completely resocialize us, which they were very effective at doing." Hopewell indicates that he hasn't seen any evidence that new recruits were broken down and re-socialized as military rather than civilian people. -Rob

Rob asks Scot to prove Hopewell reviewed relevant files

- I must have missed that - can you please provide a reference link? I see where he says he had "access" and "opportunity" to review files (which I automatically assumed because of his rank and position - it's expected), but he never specifically details which files, of those "available" to him, he reviewed. Maybe you can get him to "privately" elaborate a little as to what documents; what "a number of years" translates to; and what exact "program, procedure, or training protocol" did Weber mention, that might have caught his eye? -Rob
  - You're trying to quibble about information which is in Hopewell's article. -- (SEWilco 14:44, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC))
    - You say "quibble," I say "point out glaring inconsistencies and fabrications within your source article." Same thing, just a difference in our terminology, I guess. (Yours is much less cumbersome however, mind if I use it? Thanks.) My quibble still stands, please address it. While we're at it - in your opinion, would you say Hopewell is trying to quibble with Weber? -Rob

Rob points out Scot's source has alterior motives

- Hopewell makes these claims more than 30 years after the described events, during discussions about presidential candidate, and former VVAW spokesperson, John Kerry. Hopewell said that while normally he would not worry about actions by a candidate more than 30 years earlier, "that kind of pattern just really can't be forgotten the way that most other things can be forgotten." -Rob
- What is Kerry's relevance to Weber's testimony? -- ((SEWilco) 20:35, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC))

Not relevant to Weber? I disagree. Hopewell, Weber and Kerry are all quite entwined in regards to Weber's testimony being disputed. We can elaborate on the connections, if you'd like - but we're certainly not going to pretend they don't exist. -Rob

- - Kerry's relevance to Weber's testimony? Perhaps you should do a google search, or hire an investigator. The real question is what is Kerry's relevance to Hopewell's propaganda piece that you cite as a source. Is that what you were asking? Just let me know. -Rob

Rob requests proof of Hopewells and Webers location and work

- Needs proof that Hopewell was stationed at that base, and during what time. He also mentions one or more of his project studies was published - can we verify that? I have to question this since his veracity is in question due to gross fabrications he makes elsewhere in his letter. -Rob
  - While we're at it, can you please provide substantiation that Weber went to Fort Jackson? With Hopewells established track record of fabrication, I'd be willing to wager against him. The video and transcript both merely say he "went to South Carolina..." -Rob
  - Ask Hopewell. Or hire an investigator. Shouldn't be hard to find info about such a major Post position. Or see if one of his two books mentions his history and bibliography. -- (SEWilco 20:35, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC))
    - - I know you didn't have a straight face when you suggested that *I* should "Ask Hopewell, or hire an investigator." You'll be doing all verifying of the veracity of that fraud before his name finds it's way into a Wikipedia main page, thank you. -Rob

Discussion of qualifications as a legitimate "source." Strike 1: Hopewell's dual agendas

- You are presenting a source that admittedly has the dual agendas of a) casting suspicion upon the Winter Soldier Investigation participants, and b) discrediting John Kerry in whatever ways necessary to reduce his chances of success in political arenas. That's strike 1.
  - a) The source is casting suspicion upon facts in the Winter Soldier Investigation testimony. Which facts are correct? b) In what way does Weber being wrong discredit Kerry? Kerry repeated some Winter Soldier Investigation info after labeling it as being from the Winter Soldier Investigation, not his. --(SEWilco)
    - - (I thought you said Hopewell hasn't seen that testimony... -Rob) (That's the facts in the Winter Soldier Investigator testimony, which exist whether anyone looked at what they are. Perhaps we should say "claims" rather than "facts"? -- (SEWilco) )
        Incorrect. You said the source (Hopewell) is trying to cast suspicion upon the facts (testimony). You also state Hopewell has not seen the facts (testimony), only the propaganda (WinterSlander.com creation). Please make up your mind. Thanks. Perhaps we should just stick to facts, rather than claims? -Rob
    - a) All "facts" are correct - by its very definition. What did you really intend to ask? Also, can you cite one "fact" in Winter Soldier Investigation upon which Hopewell casts suspicion? Please quote both the fact, verbatim, and Hopewell's refutation, verbatim - and leave interpretations out, thanks. I don't see any. b) I never said "Weber being wrong discredits Kerry." Was that question directed to another poster? -Rob
      - a) I'm saying Hopewell is addressing the facts, not the participants.
        Incorrect. You were saying Hopewell had not seen the facts, only the propaganda piece (video snippets) upon which he commented. Are you recanting this, and taking a different stance? And, to reiterate: You are presenting a source that admittedly has the agenda of casting suspicion upon the Winter Soldier Investigation participants. That's not a very qualified "source." -Rob
        
        You also seem to have missed the pertinent question, so I'll repeat it here: Can you cite one "fact" in Winter Soldier Investigation upon which Hopewell casts suspicion? Please quote both the fact, verbatim, and Hopewell's refutation, verbatim - and leave interpretations out, thanks. I don't see any. -Rob
      - b) We're discussing Weber here, and you claim that Hopewell showing that Weber's facts are wrong will somehow discredit Kerry. (Scot?)
        Incorrect. I claimed your "source" has the admitted agenda of discrediting Kerry. I said nothing of Weber. Perhaps we should stay with claims I actually made, and not with claims you say I made - it will keep things clearer, and more factual. -Rob
      - And somehow an effect on Kerry is justification for affecting something about Weber's testimony? -- (SEWilco 06:44, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC))
        Incorrect. Now see what happens when you start building further assumptions on your earlier incorrect assumptions? -Rob

Strike 2: Hopewell document has unsubstantiated POV

Further, you are citing a source document that, rather than attempting to be factual, is riddled with unsubstantiated POV. i.e., "...Oliver Stone-type film...," "...befuddled individual," "These blatherings...," etc. Strike 2.
- I'm not introducing irrelevant Hopewell POV. -- (SEWilco)
  - Of course you are. You did, the very moment you typed in the link to his op-ed piece. -Rob
    - Hopewell's article is the source for his information.
      - Let me get this straight. Hopewell is using his article as the source for the information in his article? How can he use his article to write his article when his article does not yet exist? -Rob
    - Even the most scholarly article may have stuff like that referenced, but it doesn't have to include the POV around the facts. -- (SEWilco 06:44, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC))
      - Hopewells article does not rise to the level of "scholarly," and hasn't even reached the qualification of merely factual. To the contrary, it is obviously fiction, and has no place in a factual Wikipedia article. -Rob
        I was not referring to the Hopewell article as scholarly. I said a scholarly article may reference such. -- (SEWilco 04:34, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC))
        I'm pleased that you do not refute the last sentence.

Strike 3: Hopewell misquotes subject with intended reversal of meaning

Your source blatantly misquotes a subject, not just to the effect of producing small discrepencies, but with the intended end-result of totally reversing the meaning of the subject's testimony. Strike 3.
- It is the Winter Soldier film which "misquotes a subject". I don't know if the film makers intended to reverse Weber's meaning. -- (SEWilco)
  - Incorrect. It's definitely Hopewell doing the misquoting. Better check again. Thanks for trying though. -Rob
    - Hopewell said: "he underwent "training in genocide," that his "moral worth was completely destroyed," that attitudes were inculcated in him that he was a "worthless human being," and that the worst thing that a recruit could be called was a "civilian," which was used as an epithet against the draftee. Weber then goes on to state that upon graduation, he was posted to Ft. Polk, Louisiana, for "advanced genocide training," in which caricatures of "slant eyed gooks" were posted in all barracks above gun racks, inciting him to want to "kill his mother" upon graduation."
      - That's all fine and dandy, but back to the immediate topic: Hopewell falsely claims Weber "relates that while at Ft. Jackson, he was forced "to carry flags all the time..." Hopewell further falsely states, "These are verbatim quotes from those of his ramblings which can be understood." It most certainly is not a quote of Webers.
        The transcript, with details omitted by the documentary: [4]

Strike 4: Hopewell: wrong time, wrong place

Your source is not qualified, even assuming he hasn't fabricated his presence at Fort Jackson, for several reasons: a) He is commenting on an environment that existed 10 years prior to his arrival. b) He is commenting on an environment that was radically revamped, and no longer existed by the time he arrived. c) Your 'source' tries to insist he didn't "find" corroboration of Weber's statements, but fails to mention he wasn't even looking for it at the time. d) Most of the accusations with which your source takes issue are about a location (Ft. Polk) that he hasn't even seen, but he deceivingly addresses them as if he would somehow have first-hand knowledge of them. Strike 4.
- a) You assume no traces of the previous environment would remain.
  - No, Hopewell indicates that no traces of the previous environment remained. Are you calling his statements into question?
    - No, your item (a) assumes he is commenting on an environment whose traces could somehow be completely removed. That is quite an accomplishment in cleaning up, including the human memories. I'm sure you know better than to invoke inhumanly perfect conspiracies. -- (SEWilco 06:44, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC))
      - Incorrect. Item a) states: He is commenting on an environment that existed 10 years prior to his arrival. Zero assumptions. If you wish to dispute that statement, please do so. -Rob
- b) You assume there was an earlier environment which was revamped without leaving traces of the previous situation.
  - No, Hopewell indicates that no traces remain. The revamp is a fact, see: TRADOC
    - Your item (b) assumes there was such an earlier environment as well as assuming there could be a full cleanup. You ignore how improbable such a good clean up would be. -- (SEWilco 06:44, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC))
      - Incorrect. Zero assumptions. Item b) makes two assertions: The environment was revamped by TRADOC; signs of the environment Weber described didn't exist, in Hopewell's opinion. If you wish to dispute either of these assertions, please do so. -Rob
    - Hopewell confirms that the TRADOC revamp took place and that the revamp retained old records. -- (SEWilco 06:44, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC))
      - A global search of his article for references to "old records" comes up empty. Please restate. -Rob
- c&d) You ignore that he examined much information and his job was to fix problems such as Weber describe, so he would have noticed traces of such problems. And as the Winter Soldier Investigation was showing systemic problems, similar problems would be present at similar facilities where others would also notice them. Other staff, recruits, and newspeople would have reported problems. And other Winter Soldier Investigation participants may have noticed them also. -- (SEWilco)
  - I ignore your assumption that it was Hopewell's "job ... to fix problems such as Weber describe[d]," - correct. You have no problem with that, I hope? Perhaps you can cite one "problem" stated by Weber (verbatim, of course), and cite one indication that Hopewell was charged with fixing that particular problem (also verbatim, if you please). I don't see that the correlation exists. What am I missing? In regard to your systemic problem statements: Yes, Winter Soldier Investigation sought to expose such problems. No, the existence of a problem does not imply that problem exists system-wide. (Funny assertion, though. You are fast becoming my favorite paralogist!) Webers colorful, analogous reference to going to "murder training" seems to be echoed in several other of the links I have previously provided - they each indicate the predilection of training camps to instill the instinct to "kill." So in that respect, yes, you are correct - other recruits, Winter Soldier Testimony participants, etc., "have noticed them also." Did you have a point? You do not contest my statement: "Most of the accusations with which your source takes issue are about a location (Ft. Polk) that he hasn't even seen, but he deceivingly addresses them as if he would somehow have first-hand knowledge of them. Perhaps just an oversight on your part. -Rob
    - Repeated here, since you apparently overlooked this query: Perhaps you can cite one "problem" stated by Weber (verbatim, of course), and cite one indication that Hopewell was charged with fixing that particular problem (also verbatim, if you please). -Rob

Strike 5: Misedited video clip distorts meaning

Your "source" cites, as his source, a video clip that was severely mis-edited with the end result portraying meanings that do not exist, or are directly opposite than what the unedited version intended. Strike 5.
- Which meanings other than that of "flag waver"? -- (SEWilco)
- Hopewell claims the subject claims he underwent "training in genocide," at Fort Jackson. Weber made no such claim. Just perusing that document, I see 7 more blatant fabrications and gross misinterpretations. It would appear your expert liar isn't so "expert." -Rob
  - He is an expert on psychology and military training environments. Not an expert at lying. -- (SEWilco 06:44, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC))
    - An expert on psychology? I'll not dispute that. An expert on training environments? Unsubstantiated, and highly unlikely. An expert liar? I agree 100% with you, he is certainly no expert - as his op-ed article is clearly demonstrating this. He'll get better with practice, I'm sure.

Film clip authentic?

- While we're at it, can you please provide substantiation that your source video, the one to which you keep linking, is authentic? (It's already established that it is inaccurate.) It appears to be located on someones personal site dedicated to cleaning solvents and other Multi-Level Marketing products. With WinterSlander.com's established track record of fabrication, I'd be willing to wager against them. -Rob

Scot asks if there is more than one Basic training facility in South Calrolina

- - Did Americal have more than one basic training facility in SC? Google Americal basic training South Carolina 1967 -- (SEWilco 20:35, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC))
    - No clue. Did they? Seems you did a little research, what was the result? -Rob
      - Just a reminder to Scot: You keep attempting to prove a negative (i.e., something did NOT happen at Fort Jackson). If Weber says it did, and other Winter Soldier participants say it did, and if several accounts from OUTSIDE of the Winter Soldier say it did (see links I provided) - one must question your source. If I vacation in Oregon and fail to see rain, I can not conclude that it has never rained in Oregon. No matter my expertise in meteorology; no matter how many locals I spoke with during my vacation; no matter how much I would like to believe it never rains in Oregon. -Rob

More of Rob's observations on Hopewells propaganda article

C'mon, Scot... another Texan? Your agenda is clear, but I don't have a problem with that. All I ask is that you be just a little more sincere and credible in your efforts.

Video is doctored, edited, has qualifying statements snipped out - so scrap it

1) The video - scrap it. Unless you can find an un-hacked, un-edited version, that include the interviewee's qualifying statements that were so handily snipped out.

The video clip is all that Hopewell saw and should be connected to his comments. -- (SEWilco? 15:48, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC))
- The video clip is not all that Hopewell saw, as he refers to the "transcript" in those very comments. -Rob
  - A few lines below this one is mention that Hopewell did indeed only see the film clip. Referring to "transcript" doesn't mean it has been read. I just referred to it, but that does not mean that I did read it (nor that I didn't). -- (SEWilco 06:57, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC))
    - No, but quoting it does. Or are you implying Hopewell is making statements on unsubstantiated second-hand information? (Beyond doing just that by commenting on tampered 'testimony.') -Rob
  - The video is heavily edited so as to be misleading. Please replace it with an unedited (or properly edited), factual representation of what the interviewee on the film was expressing. Otherwise, the corrupted video, and all comments resting on it, have no place in a factual Wiki document. -Rob

Hopewell only saw doctored film clip, not transcript

Hopewell has seen the complete transcript - he refers to it. The "video" is edited for shock value as a propaganda piece. It neither accurately reflects the testimony given, and recorded in the congressional record, nor does it accurately represent the unedited footage from the film from which it was taken. -Rob

Hopewell says in private communication that he only saw the film clip. Is the video which "is edited for shock value" the same on WinterSolder.Com as it is in the full documentary? -- (SEWilco? 15:48, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC))

Hopewell says in the very document that you reference, "This individual, listed in the Winter Soldier Investigation transcript as Sgt. Jim Weber of the Americal Division, states..." Are you telling me he says one thing in private, and the opposite in public? Clarify, please. As for whether your two video clips are the same, perhaps you might try actually listening to them. I can tell you this, the segment in Fiore's film corresponds to the actual testimony given at WS. -Rob

He refers to a transcript, although doesn't use the full phrasing "Jim Weber, 24, Sgt. (E-5), "A" Co., 1/6 and 1/46, 198 LIB, Americal Division (November 1967 to November 1968)". There are several likely sources for the phrase which he used, the most obvious being that it was in whatever information was attached to the film clip when he saw it. He had not seen the full transcript. And the segment in the film clip does not include the full testimony. -- (SEWilco 20:35, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC))

He had not seen the full transcript? Proof please. Until then, we'll just have to take him for his word when he references a "transcript" in the source you provided. -Rob

He told me that he had not seen the full transcript, and his correction to his WinterSoldier.Com article reflects that. -- (SEWilco 14:49, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC))

No, the article still reflects that Hopewell references the transcript. Furthermore, the article appears to have been tampered with by someone at the WinterSoldier propaganda site where it is posted, as evidenced by the footnote at the bottom. Heh, and even that footnote further implies that Hopewell has seen the transcript. -Rob

The footnote is because Hopewell did finally see the transcript so he was able to get the context which was omitted by the film makers. (SEWilco 06:57, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC))

By "film makers," you are referring to the WinterSlander.com people? Fiore and the Winterfilm Collective certainly didn't have a hand in generating that propaganda piece. -Rob

Hopewell is not an expert

2) Your "expert" Mr. Hopewell, isn't. He's a Kerry-Hunter (see http://www.insightmag.com/news/2004/05/11/Politics/Not-All.Veterans.Are.Kerrys.brothers-673486.shtml). He's a Vietnam-Image-Rehabilitation Activist (see his articles at http://www.viet-myths.net/). And he's a registered Texas Republican that couldn't give a damn about Winter Soldier unless Kerry is campaigning 30 years later. All of this alone should be enough to cause you embarrassment for even citing him as a factual source. But there is more... -Rob

He apparently is an expert [5] who has an opinion about Kerry. I didn't examine voter registration records, as I didn't think that was relevant. Have you found any of the Winter Soldier Investigation participants in those records? -- (SEWilco)
- He's not an expert on Winter Soldier, nor on what was taught in training at Fort Jackson a full decade before he arrived there. He makes that evident. -Rob
  - He makes evident that he is an expert on training at Fort Jackson during several preceding decades. -- (SEWilco 07:54, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC))
    - Not. He's a shrink that claims to have had access to some old records during a project that he was on; a project that had nothing to do with Weber's allegations. He had access to, 25 years ago, policies that had undergone radical transformations (TRADOC) since Weber's time 35 years ago. The only exposure your 'expert' had to Weber's training environment was to browse (he implies?) through some old documentation while something other than Weber's allegations were on his mind. Now here is the question you must ask yourself: What does looking through official training manuals have to do with investigating UNOFFICIAL training procedures that were adopted off the record? Weber wasn't complaining about the normal training procedures. He was complaining about the abnormal ones. The fact that Hopewell didn't see "Chapter 3 - Refer to the enemy as Gooks, while instilling complete disregard for their worth as human beings..." - does that come as a suprise to you? -Rob
      - He stated that he "was actively involved with the processing and testing procedures at the Recruitment Center, which was the initial station to which recruits were assigned." During that involvement he reviewed past programs, as well as working with that Center's staff. Hardly "looking through official training manuals". -- (SEWilco 15:48, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC))
        Hardly having anything to do with "training" at all. I do not see testimony given by Weber as to what was experienced in the "Recruitment Center." Only in subsequent basic training. Your point? -Rob
      - And "unofficial" training procedures with the effects which Weber mentions would have attracted official attention. -- (SEWilco 15:48, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC))
        You would think so, wouldn't you? And incidents like My Lai would too, but instead remained covered up until a journalist revealed photos a year later. Or the Tiger Force cover up, until the Toledo Blade finally obtained classified documents. Wow, Scot, I do believe you've hit on something there! Hopewells assertions are baseless - thanks for proving my point. -Rob
      - Hopewell mentions twice that he would have been assigned recruits with such problems. -- (SEWilco 15:48, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC))
        I beg your pardon, which "problem?" If he mentions it twice, I'm sure you can clarify this for me. We're talking Weber here, by the way. Not the problems of new recruits in a revamped system 10 years later. So, back to Weber, exactly which problem did he have that would have landed him in front of Hopewell, assuming Hopewell was around at the time? -Rob
      - Believing that the situation would have been different ten years earlier requires assuming conspiratorial "loose cannon" training under a "cannon fodder" policy. Such blatant disregard for the humanity of recruits would require there to have been no professional psychological unit at the Post, but Hopewell indicates there had been continuing programs there. (And I think the paperwork created by a Marine psychological unit would have left plenty of traces of past activities.) -- (SEWilco 15:48, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC))
        Please cite your source for "loose cannon" and "cannon fodder" theories. I don't see them in the propaganda clip you provided. What I do see are his claims that he arrived South Carolina for basic ("murder") training, had his self-worth broken down, then he was "re-socialized" before shipping off to Fort Polk for AIT. Weber claims that he didn't agree with everything taught in South Carolina, but he "went along with it." Loose cannon? Explain, please. -- (17:44, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)) Still no explanation? Go figure. -Rob

Hopewell falsifies testimony, and makes multiple false statements

3) Hopewell even has the nerve to falsify testimony, and out right lie. Take Weber's testimony that he, before being changed by the military, was a patriotic flag-waver: "...I was waving flags all the time that I was on my train..." Now, take that statement and run it through the Hopewell propaganda machine, and you get: "He relates that while at Ft. Jackson, he was forced "to carry flags all the time..." Uh-huh. "Expert" source, Scot? Or an obviously biased one that would mis-quote and fabricate to achieve his ends?

You say the film clip was edited, so you apparently watched it. The patriotic implications were edited out, as the clip starts just after "...I had a racist attitude. Of course, we all still have racist attitudes. I, I didn't care about anyone else. You know, I cared about myself and I, ..." -- (SEWilco)
- Exactly. Weber said one thing. Hopewell claims Weber said the opposite. Hopewell = fraud. -Rob
  - Hopewell claims Weber said what the film clip shows. Hopewell's reply does not fit the full transcript, but does fit the clip. -- (SEWilco)
    - No it does not. Best watch it again. Then come back here and quote to me what Weber says about flags. -Rob
      - Hopewell tried to interpret the video; although flag waving is not the central issue about Weber's training. The film clip mentions waving flags on a train after being drafted, which could have been a voluntary or forced activity on a civilian or military train before or after induction. Note also that "flags" has several possibilities, including the unit's official colors. (Was the military using trains for recruit transport?) "I got drafted into the army and it, it made quite a big change because I was waving flags all the time that I was on my train, you know, down to South Carolina where I got my murder training." (SEWilco 15:48, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC))
        "These are verbatim quotes from those of his ramblings which can be understood." Nice dance, Scot, but I think you are tripping over your own BS. Try again? I have time. -Rob
        Why are you providing that quote? --(SEWilco)
        Why are you claiming he "tried to interpret" rather than directly quote? -Rob
        Because he interpreted what Weber said in the film clip, which is somewhat more vague than the transcript. -- (SEWilco 08:41, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC))
        Stop it, Scot. First you say Hopewell quoted Weber accurately. When that is proven false, you attempt to say Hopewell was just interpreting Weber. When I point out Hopewells claim that "These are verbatim quotes...," you still dance around the issue. Hopewell not only misquoted, but completely perverted the meaning of the quote as well. Hopewell lied.

Hopewell article on WinterSoldier.Com modified by unnamed editor

- Hopewell has clarified his interpretation on WinterSoldier.Com. [6] -- (SEWilco 08:41, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC))
- Hopewell has not clarified his fabrications. Although it appears an editor at WinterSlander.com attempted to, is that what you are refering to? Perhaps, with enough of this fact-checking, we can help that editor complete re-write that article of Hopewells? -Rob
  - It is quite clear that the editor at WS.com added the new information without rewriting or hiding anything. -- (SEWilco 06:57, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC))
    - It's clear to me it was an editor, yes. But previously, you claimed it was Hopewell that had clarified Hopewell's interpretation on WinterSlander.com. -Rob
      - Upon further examination, the editor tampering with the article in question has failed to rectify Hopewells attempt to deceive: "* It has come to Dr. Hopewell's attention that the full transcript of Weber's remarks shows that he waved or carried flags on the train to Ft. Jackson, rather than at Ft. Jackson itself. The original text has been left in place as a reference point." Tell me, please, where in Hopewell's op-ed piece does he claim Weber "waved or carried flags at Ft. Jackson itself?" Does the editor also plan to address the initial perversion that Hopewell stated Weber claimed "he was forced" to do something? I see it bracketed out, but it's not corrected or even addressed. Let me know - thanks.

Hopewells reminder that present day training is reviewed, overseen and irrelevant

4) Hopewell concludes, "Those knowledgeable of military matters also realize that training is extensively and thoroughly reviewed and overseen by the Training and Doctrine Command, or TRADOC. During this review we again evaluated training procedures, especially in regards to TRADOC doctrine. The training program emphasized the following of the legal orders, knowledge of and adherence to the Geneva Conventions, and the highest of ethical and moral standards. Once again, there was never any single indication of any type of program, procedure, or training protocol, which would in the slightest way resemble what is described in the "Winter Soldier testimony." Wow. TRADOC, eh? Perhaps Mr. Hopewell hopes that "Those knowledgeable of military matters..." won't stumble upon this farce he is trying to pull off, and expose it. TRADOC wasn't formed until late 1973! And it was formed, in part, because of the very deficiencies in military training and doctrine exposed by the likes of Weber. See: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0JAP/is_1_10/ai_73328194

He said "evaluated training procedures, especially in regards to TRADOC doctrine". The TRADOC doctrine was considered during the review of "training files and programs going back a number of years into the Kennedy-Johnson war years." -- (SEWilco)

Basic Training comments from Webers era of training

- I know what he said - I quoted him. He definitely implied Weber's training conformed to TRADOC, when TRADOC didn't yet exist. He also refers, twice, to his efforts in trying to locate the training aberrations by reviewing old "training files and programs." Then he triumphantly proclaims he didn't discover "anything like this." Gee whiz, no kidding? What did he expect to find ... Documented instructions in the Drill Instructors Manual on how to dehumanize the gooks, er...enemy; instill total distrust and an unquestioning killer instinct? Wake up, Scot. If it was in the books as part of the 'official' program, it wouldn't need exposing, would it? Time for you to find another "expert." I'll see your quack, and raise you three doctors:

"On the basis of this information, basic training was revamped so that recruits would be desensitized to killing. Indoctrination techniques were geared to getting soldiers used to the idea of "wasting" an enemy. As one marine reported: "'Kill, kill, kill, kill,' It was drilled into your mind so much that it seemed like when it actually came down to it, it didn't bother you" (Dyer 1985:121)."

http://www.dccam.org/Article%20and%20Translation/Agents_of_death_searching_for_the_truth.htm

"For the kid in Basic during the Vietnam War, it was not easy to forget that he was expected to be able and willing to kill people in Vietnam. This meant that he had to put aside some of the most closely held beliefs of civilized Western society about the sanctity of human life."

http://www.patiencepress.com/samples/rfwch1.pdf

"We systematically dehumanize them in basic training and teach them how to dehumanize "others," "over there" until those others become "the enemy." Surely whatever happens to the enemy is fair game. They are, after all, the enemy."

"Consider this from Hal Muskat, who went through basic training at Ft. Dix, NJ, describing a frightening scene during bayonet practice for 1,000 young men: "In between the call/response of, 'What's the spirit of bayonet?' 'Kill! Kill! Kill!' drill instructors (DIs) would pick up megaphones and scream, 'See those C-130s landing? They are bringing in bodies of dead Americans killed by gooks. The gooks murdered our soldiers! Do you want to be a body on that plane? I can't hear you? What's the spirit of bayonet?' Every once in a while, a DI would pull several of us aside and give us lessons on the proper use of bayonet in performing a 'field abortion.' Stick the bayonet in the gook's cunt and pull up towards her throat. A dead gook in the womb saves Americans lives!'"

Or this, from Roger Domagalski, describing what he was told as a recruit and his duties after basic training: "From the first moment we arrived, we often heard the words, 'girls, ladies, sissies, pussies, and worse' when insulting us. Thus 'women' as a whole became a derogatory concept; very sexist and very dehumanizing...I had been dehumanized to such an extent that I completely lacked all empathy for these frightened, new trainees. Instead of treating them decently, I mistreated them as I had been mistreated. Once you dehumanize a person, you need to maintain control because such a person is liable to do anything, from the relatively mild 'hazing' I engaged in, to the Nazi-like terror tactics used by the guards against Iraqi prisoners. Yes, basic training works...all too well sometimes."

http://69.24.75.153/gi/vietnam%20recollections.htm

"I had my basic training in the infy at Ft Polk, LA. I went through most of the training as the other guys went through. The complete dehumanization of a person in preparation for the VW. Now in this training they referred to the Vietnamese as dinks, or gooks. The impression was that they were something less than human. I had a DI in AIT reply to a question, "What is it like over there?" and he told us, he said, "It is like hunting rabbits and squirrels.""

http://members.aol.com/warlibrary/vwch4.htm

"In his book, On Killing, Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman, an Army psychologist, outlines a history of studies examining how soldiers are motivated to kill, and the effects that killing has upon them. Grossman’s main finding is that there is within human beings something that makes the idea of killing another human being anathema. That fact is illustrated by trigger-pull studies taken from various armed conflicts. In earlier wars the estimate is that only a small number of the soldiers actually fired at the enemy. Grossman tells of muskets recovered during the US Civil War which were filled with layers of “buck and ball,” suggesting that soldiers may have wanted to pretend to shoot, and so kept loading but faked firing. Soldiers in basic training units often admit to that same hesitancy as they came to grips with the reality of what they were being trained to do. That hesitancy is a powerful force within human nature, but it is not necessarily permanent. As Grossman points out, during the Vietnam War and subsequent conflicts, the trigger-pull ratios were much higher. The Army recognized the need to overcome that innate hesitancy, altered training, and focused on techniques to dehumanize the enemy and thus condition its soldiers. In essence, it is easier to shoot an “enemy” than to shoot another “human,” and conditioning through training can, to some degree, overcome the natural hesitancy to kill."

http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/02summer/shurtlef.htm

Awareness of TRADOC; unaware of reality - Hopewell comments on wrong camp

- - He didn't say that everything matched TRADOC. He was aware of TRADOC when reviewing. He said he hadn't heard of what Weber described. The expert is saying that the reality of staff experience and records doesn't match what Weber described. Oh, and that the Post's community did not seem unusual. You might stop at the local library and see if the high school yearbooks or newspapers mentioned anything like what Weber says was going on. -- (SEWilco 07:54, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC))
    - The community didn't seem unusual, after many years of TRADOC? It better not have. Your point? As for what Weber mentioned going on, check the previous several paragraphs under "Basic Training comments" above. -Rob
      - The community did not produce reports of training problems while Weber was there. Weber wanted to kill his mother, so one has to be concerned about the nearby mothers. -- (SEWilco? 15:48, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC))
        Still waiting for your point. And where did "killing mothers" come in? Oh! The Ft. Polk advanced training! Was Hopewell stationed there too? This I must see - please provide direct quotes. -Rob
        Oops. I hope the mothers around Fort Polk survived. -- (SEWilco)
        Still waiting on the information proving that Hopewell was at Fort Polk. Thanks -Rob
        I know you're being smug about my misreading. However, Hopewell says he actually was also at Ft. Polk, but on temporary assignment as an expert consultant. -- (SEWilco 08:52, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC))
        No, Hopewell says he was mistaken, and was never at Ft. Polk in any official capacity. -Rob
        I meant that in private communication, Hopewells says he was also at Ft. Polk. -- (SEWilco 06:57, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC))
        I meant that in private communication as well, Hopewell says he was never at Ft. Polk in any official capacity. -Rob
        Hopewell says he has not said that to anyone, and the Ft. Polk staff and JAG consider he was certianly there in an official capacity. -- (SEWilco 02:38, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC))
        Just re-checked - private communication insists Hopewell was NOT there in official capacity. Perhaps you should verify your source - imposter, maybe? -Rob
        C. Alan Hopewell, Ph.D., President of the Texas Psychological Association? Had his own article on Wintersoldier.Com updated. That certainly seems to be the right Hopewell. I don't know who you found. -- (SEWilco 06:25, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC))
        That's the same person to whom I refer. -Rob
        Well, ask him to send Scot a new note about his official and unofficial visits to Ft. Polk. -- (SEWilco 03:56, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC))

Rob's recommendation

After you have had a chance to digest this, Scot, perhaps then we can delete this segment. I'll leave it here in the Talk:Notes for now, but it certainly isn't making it to an encyclopedia page that claims to be factual. And a bit of advice... be very wary of anything obtained from the political action site known as wintersoldier.com. -Rob

Scot's recommendation

Be wary of anything from any activism source. But check the bathwater for baby. -- (SEWilco 06:29, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC))

Joe Bangert

Joe Bangert [7]
Participated in creation of Winter Soldier film.
Winter Soldier Investigation - 1st Marine Division testimony [8]
In an article by By Bill Homans, Joe Bangert is mentioned. [9]
- "Silber and Dane were the publishers, in 1969, of the original "Vietnam Songbook," a comprehensive collection of songs in vehement opposition to the Vietnam War, by Phil Ochs and Tom Paxton, Nina Simone and Richard Farina, Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger, and many more.
- "Wrong! It was my old VVAW brother Joe Bangert, who, with me, was to provide the VVAW presence at the big gig. Joe is cutting-edge hardcore; he spent five years in the 1990s living with the Vietnamese in Hanoi. That's right, y'all, the Vietnamese. Not the "North" or "South" Vietnamese; the Vietnamese. You remember that old expression from the 'Nam, "It don't mean nothin'"? Well, thirty-some years later, it does mean something. That, at least, we can say we accomplished, brothers: Vietnam is one country again. Right on."
Letter from a Fred Keller to WinterSoldier.Com comments on Bangert's stories. http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=Letters
- "I worked in Vietnam for six years as a civilian, 1968-1974 and I'm married to a Vietnamese from the Delta. My friend who worked with me is married to a girl from Quang Tri. Recently he and I were discussing the claims made by Kerry and Joe Bangert, after listening to us for a short time the girls joined in, their first question was, were these guys on drugs or drunk when they were making these claims."
- "They both stated that while living in these areas 24/7, they saw some fighting but never things like these people were talking about."
- "Both of these guys have seen too many action movies or they are on the pipe."
- "My wife did say that she saw civilians killed but it was by the VC for actions that they thought these people had taken against them, (informing on locations.) First the VC killed their children, then the wife and finally the man. This was done after assembling the entire village to watch as an object lesson against cooperating with the Americans."
- "Anybody who has ever skinned a deer or other fair sized animal will tell you its not a five minute job, when your in combat with the possibility of people shooting at you, who in their right mind is going to stop to take the time to abuse or torture civilians."
- "I had 3500 Vietnamese working on my job site and knew many of them on a personal basis, I can't remember one telling me of Americans wantonly killing civilians."
- "The lies that these people are telling remind me of my time in Africa when a congressional delegation was visiting, several opposition members of the government were arrested for demonstrating illegally. They were in custody about one hour. After their release they told the congressmen of all the thing that were done to them while in custody."
- "Shooting people is quick and easy, but when you stop and start abusing or torturing them as Kerry and Bangert claim, it takes time."
Letter from a Sen Star to WinterSoldier.Com points out oddities in Bangert's stories. http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=Letters
- "Joe Bangert enlists in 1968, and serves in VMO-6, an aviation unit that flies very small observation planes. Banger does not state his MOS (Military Occupational Specialty), but almost all the enlisted men in these units were maintenance types - fix airplanes, attach bombs, fix radios, etc. They usually did not fly, and they saw very little combat."
- "Bangert says he sees a truck load of Marines murder a bunch of children on his first day with two officers present. Then he sees bodies "crucified" on perimeter wire, apparently cut up with knives and hung on the wire. Then he has a friend who is CIA who takes him somewhere, murders a woman with twenty shots, then cuts open her vagina, takes out her organs and skins her. The perpetrator was a former military officer, and two other field grade officers knew about it."
- " Then Bangert works with the pacification program in Vietnam, and travels extensively through Quang Tri Province. He sees approximately twenty deformed infants under the age of one."
- "Bangert sees journalists, specifically women journalists who were readily welcomed into the unit. There was always this whitewashing thing. Well, sometimes these people would go right past the bodies and come into our base to get a story. They were kept away from the enlisted men, away from the people who were involved. The typical thing was to take them down to the Officers Club, get them soused."
- "As the song says, "lie lie lie, lie lie lie lie, lie lie lie, lie lie lie...""
- "Elsewhere in his testimony, Bangert claims to be a door gunner with two helo units."
- "Bangert worked for a light observation squadron - very little combat. The men worked like coolies, often 16 hours a day 7 days a week, servicing planes, refueling, rearming, preparing, cleaning, maintaining. Usually they did not fly. They did not get to wander off on secret CIA missions. They did not participate in the CAP program - these were separate small units who lived permanently in villages, protecting the villages from the VC. They did not get to wander around Quang Tri looking at deformed kids. He states on his first day he sees a bunch of kids murdered on Route 1 -- this the main thoroughfare through the area, not some remote area. Can you imagine the press coverage? He says the press saw the crucified bodies, but were wooed with booze and did not report on this. Come on, get real."
A person named Admin responds to Sen Star and Fred Keller
- "We're accumulating reports that subject the wild claims of the Winter Soldier witnesses to the harsh light of reality. Thanks for this excellent example."
- "...or have some other agenda. Thanks."

Bangert says he threw away his medals. [10]
- He was unscathed. [11]
Bangert has lived in Vietnam. [12]
Bangert said he was "receiving thirty percent disability from the government for being crazy from the war." [13]
David Gorick observes that Bangert's VMO-6 unit was "irresponsible" to let people hitchhike to the unit, as Bangert says he did on his first day. Helicopter transport was required. [14]
- "VMO-6 was stationed at Quang Tri where my squadron HMM-161 was. I was also there during the same time period of 68-69 and I know for a fact that all Marines assigned to any of the three Marine Squadrons there were picked up by either us or HMM-262 while they were in Danang. For a newbie to be allowed to hitchhike would be irresponsible. Also we were not allowed off the base of Quang Tri with the exception of medcaps and that policy was in effect until just before I left there. The only way on and off the base for anyone assigned to one of the three squadrons was by helicopter. You would need to be one hell of a lot higher up the food chain than a corporal to get around that policy."
Patrick Hughes responds to David Gorick by admitting, "I don't suppose it has occured to some folks that in 1967 and 1968, the Marines were surrounded by something like 3 Million Viet Namese of one persuasion or another and we considered them all VC or NVA until proven otherwise."
Edward Combs disputes David Goricks claims in that same forum when he observes, "I've 'hitched' a ride from Bien Hoa to Saigon on Route 1 then caught a bus

from TSN back."

Winter Soldier Investigation - Well-Known, and Lesser-Known, and Possibly Unknown Participants

The military investigation which stated that some participants were phonies has not been confirmed. But the identities of some participants are known, which reduces the list of possible impostors. Actual participants in the Winter Soldier Investigation should be noted in each person's section. Some people who are not known to have testified at the Winter Soldier Investigation should be listed if it seems likely they were involved, such as VVAW officers and coordinators.

This section is a cross-reference web, using concepts from classification and friend of a friend systems. This being a discussion area, it is likely to contain fragmentary information which editors will expand when using info in main article.

Well known

John Kerry

John Kerry
Involved with VVAW when it hosted the Winter Soldier Investigation but did not give testimony.
Summarized the Winter Soldier Investigation descriptions later at a Senate hearing in Washington.

Teresa Heinz Kerry

Teresa Heinz Kerry
Married to former VVAW Spokesman John Kerry
It is reported that Teresa Heinz Kerry has slept next to the one time spokesperson for the WInter Soldier event, as he had nightmares about Vietnam. [15]

Russ Vaughn

Russ Vaughn
Letter from a Russ Vaughn to WinterSoldier.Com points out veterans are "ragtag bunch of scumbags." http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=20031118064232940
- "Reading that made me wonder how many seriously injured Vietnam veterans were denied this kind of community support because of the vicious and calculated lies perpetrated by John Kerry and that sorry-ass, ragtag bunch of scumbag, pseudo-soldiers he led. How many sacrificing, honorable warriors were left alone, isolated and embittered with their grievous wounds, rejected by an ungrateful nation, because of the manipulative, purposeful deceptions of a scheming, ambitious politician."
- "And now this shameless jerk, who, more than any other single person, created this unwarranted image of Vietnam veterans, wants us to join his Band of Brothers? Band of Brothers my ass! More like Band of Mothers to this veteran who will never, ever forgive John Kerry’s contemptible, destructive use of good and honorable soldiers to further his own selfish ambitions."
- "This brave young noncom was recently honored by his hometown community when he and his family came home from Walter Reed, where he had been convalescing for many months and getting fitted with prosthetic limbs."

Gaetano Puglisi

Gaetano Puglisi
Letter from a Gaetano Puglisi to WinterSoldier.Com points out how Kerry obtained VVAW letterhead, and forged letters to Veterans before joining VVAW. http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=20031118064232940
- "The Brave men and women who gave the ultimate sacrifice should not have their Brave deeds forsaken by J. Kerry. Best Regards and God Bless AMERICA."
- "I was encouraged to return my Purple Heart [with cluster -- I have 2] and my Bronze Star w/ V device [Valor] and join his protest against the war."
- "I would like to say something about Mr. Kerry. In 1968 or 1969 I received a letter from Kerry and the Vietnam Veterans Against the War...He went to Nam to help his own political future and had his own agenda and never wanted to help the guys who were spilling their blood for AMERICA and FREEDOM! This Kerry should have been stripped of all Veteran Benefits."

Jim Weber

Jim Weber [16]
- Winter Soldier Testimony - 24, Sgt. (E-5), "A" Co., 1/6 and 1/46, 198 LIB, Americal Division (November 1967 to November 1968)
Weber confirms [17] Ronald Palosaari's [18] testimony. Palosaari confirms Weber's statements.
- Transcript of full testimony: http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Winter_Soldier/WS_50_Americal.html

Barry Romo

Barry Romo
- VVAW National Coordinator
- Romo states, "Kim Phuc visited with VVAW for three days, and despite the fact that she was always in pain (she almost died that June day in 1972), she exuded joy and love and humanity. People felt good being around her. "
- [19]

Pete Zastrow

Pete Zastrow
- VVAW National Coordinator

Scott Camil

Scott Camil
- VVAW Florida regional coordinator.
- One of the Gainesville Eight.
- Nancy Saunders refers to him.
- Referred to in the Winter Soldier Investigation transcript as Scott Camile, of 1st Marines. [20]
  - John F. Sugg identifies Scott Camile's testimony as belonging to Scott Camil. [21]
  - Sugg met Camil at U of Florida. "In 1971, I witnessed Camil's and Kerry's testimonies at the Winter Soldier Hearings (a play on Paine's "Summer Patriot" admonition) in Detroit."
- Winter Soldier Investigation testimony, 1st Marine Division. [22]

Kim Phuc

Kim Phuc
- Vietnamese in photo made famous by Anti-War activists. Visits with VVAW
- Kim has commented, "I am not famous, my photo is. If the photographer had taken it two minutes earlier or two minutes later, there would have been no photo. Millions are hurt in war, they just don't have their photo taken, so they don't exist. I must speak for them. Why fight? For what? People who are fighting are just destroying. We live in love and we should live in peace."
- [23]

Donald Donner

Donald Donner [24] [25]
- VVAW Arkansas and Louisiana regional coordinator.
- Winter Soldier Investigation - 1st, 4th, and 9th Infantry Divisions co-moderator [26]
- Winter Soldier Investigation - Miscellaneous Panel testimony [27]
  - Says he is also from Fayetteville, Arkansas (reference to previous Williams intro).
  - Refers to an engineer unit, the 86th, with the other gentleman at a much later date (reference to Sam Schorr).
- Nancy Saunders says he and Marti Jordan did draft counseling together.

Peggy Kerry

Peggy Kerry
- Introduced John Kerry to the VVAW
- Peggy Kerry says that her brother "had the anguish" shared by so many other vets just back from Vietnam; she says he suffered "indescribable pain" about the people who'd died in the war, and that he would sometimes wake up screaming from nightmares that continued even into his present marriage with Teresa Heinz Kerry. At a rally on Wall Street in April 1971, the files show, Kerry spoke of being "guilty" like everyone else in the country "for having allowed the war to go on"-a burden that, he said to me in a second interview, in 1989, could have "croaked" him if he had not been personally strong enough to deal with it.
- [28]

Marti Jordan

Marti Jordan
- VVAW Arkansas state coordinator
- Nancy Saunders says he and Don Donner did draft counseling together.

John W. Kniffin

John W. Kniffin
- VVAW Texas regional coordinator.
- Nancy Saunders refers to him.

Bill Davis

Bill Davis
- VVAW National Coordinator
- Nancy Saunders does not refer to him.

Bill Patterson

Bill Patterson
- VVAW West Texas and New Mexico coordinator.
- Nancy Saunders refers to him.

Joe Miller

Joe Miller
- VVAW National Coordinator
- Admitted father of Lisa Boucher.

Michael Damron

Michael Damron [29]
- Winter Soldier Investigation - 3rd Marine text [30]
- Photo of Damron with VVAW FBI informant William Lemmer [31]
- Nancy Saunders refers to him.

David Cline

David Cline
- VVAW National Coordinator
- Cline is alleged to have reviewed a VVAW guide to organizing protests.
- Cline notes in his review, the start of the VVAW, "That was the beginning of VVAW. Soon a meeting was held and the organization was officially founded. Jan was elected the national president and devoted the next four years to these duties. During that time, VVAW grew to a membership of over fifteen thousand and became a leading force in the antiwar movement and an advocate for veterans' rights." [32]

Lesser known

Sam Schorr

Sam Schorr [33]
- Winter Soldier Investigation - Miscellaneous Panel testimony [34]
- Donald Donner states they served together.

Lisa Boucher

Lisa Boucher
- VVAW National Staff member
- Lisa Boucher was seen singing at a VVAW Meeting. As proof, Joe Miller admits, "The remainder of the afternoon festivities included more songs from Jim Walktendonk, a surprise song from my daughter, Lisa Boucher, and an even more surprising song from Bill Davis. Other speakers included Bud Sauk, a founding member of Business Executives Against the War in Vietnam; Ray Parrish, VVAW member and Director of the Midwest Committee for Military Counseling (MCMC); John Zutz, a Midwest Regional Coordinator for VVAW (see a printed version of his remarks elsewhere in this issue); and Dong Tizon, of the Philippine Workers Solidarity Committee, among others. This afternoon was filled with memories, good and bad, with images of struggle, past and present (see Oscar Lopez-Rivera's letter below), and with determination to continue the fight for peace and social justice for all peoples everywhere. We came together in celebration of the victory of the people of Vietnam and in celebration of the contributions we made in helping that victory along. The struggle goes on!"
- [35]

Gordon Stewart

Gordon Stewart [36]
- Winter Soldier Investigation - 3rd Marine testimony [37]
- Christopher Soares "correlated with Gordon Stewart".
- Says he was wounded at same event as Robert Clark mentioned.

Christopher Soares

Christopher Soares [38]
- Winter Soldier Investigation - 3rd Marine testimony [39]
- Refers to Gordon Stewart: "My testimony will consist of the invasion of Laos, correlated with Gordon Stewart, Operation Dewey Canyon"

Robert Clark

Robert Clark [40]
- Winter Soldier Investigation - 3rd Marine testimony [41]
- Gordon Stewart says he was wounded at event described by Robert Clark.

Kenneth Campbell

Kenneth Campbell [42]
- Moderator, Winter Soldier Investigation - 3rd Marine testimony
- Corroborates William Hatton's testimony as to Sgt. _____. [43]

William Hatton

William Hatton [44]
- Winter Soldier Investigation - 3rd Marine testimony [45]
- Kenneth Campbell corrobates testimony as to Sgt. _____. [[46]]

Mark Lenix

Mark Lenix [47]
- Participated in creation of Winter Soldier film.
- Winter Soldier Investigation - 1st, 4th, and 9th Infantry divisions testimony [48]
- Mark Lenix and Scott Moore were in same unit and corrobate each other's testimony. [49]

Scott Moore

Scott Moore [50]
- Winter Soldier Investigation - 1st, 4th, and 9th Infantry divisions testimony [51]
- Mark Lenix and Scott Moore were in same unit and corrobate each other's testimony. [52]

Franklin Shepard

Franklin Shepard [53]
- Winter Soldier Investigation - 1st, 4th, and 9th Infantry divisions testimony [54]

Summary of mention of cut off ears

- - Never saw cut off ears: "I never witnessed anyone cutting off an ear, for example, and bringing it in"
  - Unidentified panelist: "... ears drying in the sun. This was right behind the battalion TOC"

Mention of cut off ears in context

- - - "These badges were given when someone could prove that he had killed a Viet Cong, or Vietnamese. There are many ways of doing this. One is to have somebody verify that you did in fact see him kill a Vietnamese. Another way is--and this a common way--to cut off the ear of the dead Vietnamese and bring it in. You could exchange it for one of these badges. The badges were created on a battalion level; I have the order here that created this badge, and the sick individual that signed it. ... As for myself, I never witnessed anyone cutting off an ear, for example, and bringing it in; I don't know that these were Viet Cong. It just seems that if you have something like this you're going to get instances where people take civilians to get one of these badges."
    - Unidentified panelist: "We never really had that much incentive for body counts. But this is slightly related. You know, everybody likes souvenirs. That's sort of like an American pastime. I went to visit a friend. There was a Connex--it's a metal box that they ship goods over to Vietnam in, and they're big enough for a man to walk in. On top of it was a set of ears drying in the sun. This was right behind the battalion TOC, which is Tactical Operations Center. They could not help but see a set of ears on Connex, you know, drying in the sun. I thought at first that it was revolting, but after a while I thought, you know, hey man, maybe I want a souvenir. One of these days when I come across a body I'll get myself a finger or an ear. When I went over there, it was a revolting idea. But then, you know, once you did kill a body, you could bring back the souvenir that you did kill it."

Larry Rottmann

Larry Rottmann [55]
- Co-moderator, 25th Infantry Division and Public Information Office Panel [56]
- Larry Rottmann showed Vernon Shibla's photo of two MPs carrying a Vietnamese suspect.
- Mike McCusker and Larry Rottmann met "in Chicago and we both got gassed together." (context implies years of protesting, so probably refers to the 1968 Democratic National Convention)

Mike McCusker

Mike McCusker [57]
- 25th Infantry Division and Public Information Office Panel [58]
- Mike McCusker and Larry Rottmann met "in Chicago and we both got gassed together." (context implies years of protesting, so probably refers to the 1968 Democratic National Convention)

Vernon Shibla

Vernon Shibla [59]
- Winter Soldier Investigation 25th Infantry Division and Public Information Office Panel testimony [60]
- Larry Rottmann showed Vernon Shibla's photo of two MPs carrying a Vietnamese suspect.

Paul Olimpieri

Paul Olimpieri [61]
- Winter Soldier Investigation 1st Marine Division testimony [62]
- Paul Olimpieri was leader of Fred Nienke's squad.

Fred Nienke

Fred Nienke [63]
- Winter Soldier Investigation 1st Marine Division testimony [64]
- Paul Olimpieri was leader of Fred Nienke's squad.

References

David Cline

David Cline, worked for VVAW as National Coordinator. [65]
David Cline is believed to have reviewed a VVAW guide to organizing protests, written by Jan Barry.

[66]

- Cline is quoted as saying of Barry, "Jan Barry is one of the unsung heroes of the Vietnam war era. Born in Ithaca, New York during World War II, his childhood ambition was to attend West Point. He joined the Army in 1962 and volunteered for Vietnam where he was a radio/navigation operator for planes supplying Special Forces units. After his return, he received an appointment to West Point, the first cadet there who had already served in Vietnam."

[67]

Nancy Saunders

Nancy Saunders, Durham, worked with VVAW for four years in the early 1970s. [68]
L.A. Times refers to filmmaker Nancy Miller Saunders, the girlfriend of Arkansas-Louisiana coordinator Don Donner [69]
- "Here in Fayetteville there was Michael Damron, a tank commander and sniper with the 3rd Marines who was at Khe Sanh. He died a few years ago from exposure to Agent Orange. There was Don Donner, an Army engineer and now a lawyer and associate justice of the Arkansas Supreme Court. He was VVAW's Arkansas and Louisiana regional coordinator.
- "There was Marti Jordan who served a tour with MAGV and another with Tropical Lightning. He was VVAW's Arkansas state coordinator and is now a minister. He and Don did draft counseling together in the basement of the University Presbyterian Church. There was Randy, a lieutenant with the Airborne Rangers whose unit was wiped out in Operation Ripcord and Leroy who came home a paraplegic. There was Clint whose parents disowned him for his antiwar activities and Tom whose career dreams were dashed by his involvement with VVAW.
- "Elsewhere there was John W. Kniffin who spent 34 months in Vietnam as a tank commander. He earned two Purple Hearts, both the Bronze and Silver Stars and the Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry. He was VVAW's Texas regional coordinator. He recently died from exposure to Agent Orange. There was Bill Patterson an Army door gunner and the West Texas and New Mexico coordinator. He also died from Agent Orange exposure. There was Scott Camil who spent two tours in country as a forward observer with the 1st Marines. He was the Florida regional coordinator.
- "Scott, Bill and John had a lot worse than insults hurled at them. They were three of the seven seasoned combat vets and one conscientious objector, known as the Gainesville 8, who were tried on the word of FBI informers for conspiracy to take on police, the Secret Service, the 82nd Airborne, etc., at the 1972 GOP convention armed only with slingshots and a crossbow. The jury saw the absurdity of the charges and quickly acquitted the eight."

Winter Soldier Investigation verification processes

"Each veteran's authenticity and testimony were checked before the hearings by Investigation organizers. Who better to authenticate Vietnam service than other Vietnam vets (Brinkley, 349; Hunt, 66-68). Each veteran's authenticity and testimony were checked after the hearings by Nixon's "plumbers". Charles Colson was assigned the task. In a CONFIDENTIAL "Plan to Counteract Viet Nam Veterans Against the War", Colson wrote, "The men that participated in the pseudo-atrocity hearings in Detroit will be checked to ascertain if they are genuine combat veterans." At one point, the Nixon team suggested in a memo about VVAW, "Several of their regional coordinators are former Kennedy supporters." With the exception of the attack on Al Hubbard, nothing worse was ever produced (Brinkley, 356-357;Hunt, 73-84; Wells, 489-490).
From Guenther Lewy's "America in Vietnam," (Pg. 316): To prevent the Detroit hearing from being tainted by such irregularities, all of the veterans testifying fully identified the units in which they had served and provided geographical descriptions of where the alleged atrocities had taken place.
"Those who wanted to testify were carefully screened by Oliver, Hubbard, Scott Moore, and other officers of VVAW, as well as by Fonda and her associates, to make sure that they were who they said they were, that they had served where they said they did, and that only the strongest testimony went before the microphones. All veterans participating in Winter Soldier were required to bring their discharge papers (DD-214's). Moreover, Oliver and Moore had fashioned a special "atrocity room" in a nearby house, with hundreds of papers taped to the walls---lists of troop movements and unit assignments which they correlated with the individual claims of war crimes that were being brought before them every day." [70] -- (SEWilco 06:41, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC))

Unprotection

This has been protected for quite a long time, so I'm going to give it a chance to be edited again. Please keep it civil and try to either reach consensus or agree to disagree. Snowspinner 13:56, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC)

First entry in this Talk page

Related links

Winter Soldier (film)

July 2004 Protection

Talk: Disputed allegation of phonies in the Winter Soldier Investigation

Quick addition by Rob

C. Alan Hopewell on Jim Weber's Testimony

Rob asks Scot to prove Hopewell reviewed relevant files

Rob points out Scot's source has alterior motives

Rob requests proof of Hopewells and Webers location and work

Discussion of qualifications as a legitimate "source." Strike 1: Hopewell's dual agendas

Strike 2: Hopewell document has unsubstantiated POV

Strike 3: Hopewell misquotes subject with intended reversal of meaning

Strike 4: Hopewell: wrong time, wrong place

Strike 5: Misedited video clip distorts meaning

Film clip authentic?

Scot asks if there is more than one Basic training facility in South Calrolina

More of Rob's observations on Hopewells propaganda article

Video is doctored, edited, has qualifying statements snipped out - so scrap it

Hopewell only saw doctored film clip, not transcript

Hopewell is not an expert

Hopewell falsifies testimony, and makes multiple false statements

Hopewell article on WinterSoldier.Com modified by unnamed editor

Hopewells reminder that present day training is reviewed, overseen and irrelevant

Basic Training comments from Webers era of training

Awareness of TRADOC; unaware of reality - Hopewell comments on wrong camp

Rob's recommendation

Scot's recommendation

Joe Bangert

Winter Soldier Investigation - Well-Known, and Lesser-Known, and Possibly Unknown Participants

Well known

John Kerry

Teresa Heinz Kerry

Russ Vaughn

Gaetano Puglisi

Jim Weber

Barry Romo

Pete Zastrow

Scott Camil

Kim Phuc

Donald Donner

Peggy Kerry

Marti Jordan

John W. Kniffin

Bill Davis

Bill Patterson

Joe Miller

Michael Damron

David Cline

Lesser known

Sam Schorr

Lisa Boucher

Gordon Stewart

Christopher Soares

Robert Clark

Kenneth Campbell

William Hatton

Mark Lenix

Scott Moore

Franklin Shepard

Summary of mention of cut off ears

Mention of cut off ears in context

Larry Rottmann

Mike McCusker

Vernon Shibla

Paul Olimpieri

Fred Nienke

References

David Cline

Nancy Saunders

Winter Soldier Investigation verification processes

Unprotection