Wikipedia talk:Sound

Archive 1

Sound format

Can user have a look to Wikipedia talk:Sound. I'm not conviced that this change is a good thing and I don't think it has received large support. Ericd 12:15, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

User:Zarni02 has instituted a new Wikipedia policy allowing the use of WAV and MP3 sound files instead of just OGG. However he has gathered very few comments and run no polls before instituting this change. It was announced on Requests for comment. Rmhermen 12:56, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)

In my opinion this new policy is evil. WAV is an horrible solution from a technical POV. MP3 has patent issue. From a legal POV I see it like accepting copyright violations or deciding that Wikipiedia is not GFDL.

I don't know what happened, but I never heard about the Wikipedia:Request for comments posting until it was over. (I check my Wikipedia watchlist at least 10 times a day, but never saw the edit to Wikipedia:Sound and Wikipedia that announced it. More Wikipedia technical problems?) I applaud the effort to broaden sound support on Wikipedia, though not necessarily the path taken. (I'm still reviewing that.) However, I want to point out that there are some very vocal OGG users who seem fixated on preventing WAV and MP3 files from being used by Wikipedia on specious legal grounds. There are certainly practical concerns about the size of WAV files, although the recommended WAV and MP3 filesize limit of 64KB is certainly more restrictive than the up-to-2MB files that OGG users have already uploaded. The OGG crowd routinely rejects the complaint that OGG is virtually unheard-of outside the world of open-source when compared to WAV, MP3, and other popular formats. (The software support alone for OGG — a dozen or so players and encoders and no inline browser plugins — compared to hundreds of software components for each of many other formats is an obvious argument for WAV, MP3, etc.) It seems to me that this whole dialog is confined primarily to a sizable number of existing OGG users and a few new folks looking to use a more readily-available format. The problem is that few of the latter seem to be speaking up on the issue, leaving the argument to default in favor of the OGG crowd. I think User:Zarni02's proactive, bold action is a commendable effort to bring this issue to the forefront. -- Jeff Q 23:10, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Sorry Jeff I rememberalong time ago some wikipedian arguing that it was very cool to upload copyrighted images. Yeah it was cool !. Yes, it's not cool to have to install a Direcshow filter. When your vanilla Media Player can play MP3. Yes, legal issues are annoying everyone.

Ericd 22:20, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, Ericd, but your ad hominem attack accusing me of wanting WAV and MP3 support because it's "cool" is totally unfounded on anything I've written. Unlike what your above statement implies about you, I have never uploaded any copyrighted material, and I have never in my 42 years bowed to any trend considered cool, which is more than I can say about anyone I've ever met. (Your implicit accusation is also unfounded on anything I want to upload, which I've made clear from the start — illustrative sound samples for encyclopedic topics that I create, hold the copyrights to, and license under GFDL, just like the images in my very modest gallery.) You should avoid personal attacks and try to stick to the topic at hand. You might also want to review Wiki pages on polite discourse. By the way, you might try reading the reference document you so helpfully posted on Wikipedia talk:Sound. It covers encoders and decoders only and specifically states "this license does not cover the right to distribute, broadcast and/or stream mp3 / mp3PRO encoded data". I could have provided the relevant link myself, based on information on that page, but I see no reason to help someone who has more interest in ridiculing people that making cogent and concise arguments. -- Jeff Q 23:20, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

(moved this down) A discussion about this is now at Wikipedia_talk:Sound#MP3_on_Wikipedia, announced here, at goings on and the mailing list -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 02:52, 2004 Jul 17 (UTC)

Here are some comments about three topics: patent and copyright, installed base, and Wikipedia users.

• I don't know a thing about patent law in any country, but I seriously doubt that Wikipedia would violate any MP3 patent by uploading, storing and downloading files that are encoded in MP3. Likely, there are patents covering things like algorithms and hardware for encoding and decoding the files, but licenses and fees would be the responsibility of the individual users who do those things, not of Wikipedia. Also, Wikipedia might violate copyright if the files contain copyrighted information, so diligence to avoid that would continue to be necessary --- no matter whether the material is encoded in MP3, OGG, WAV or any other format. To summarize, I believe that patent and copyright issues, while important to other discussions, have no relevance on the choice of format.

• My home and office computers cannot encode or decode OGG files. I have never heard of OGG outside the context of Wikipedia. Can anyone estimate how many computers can play OGG files, and for comparison, how many computers can play WAV files? Using the software that's already installed, without going out and installing a codec. I would bet that less than one percent of home computers connected to the Internet can play OGG files. The figure would be much higher within certain subcultures (someone mentioned the open-software subculture), and perhaps some newer computers have the capability, but within the community at large, it must surely be very low.

• Wikipedia users are very different from Wikipedians. Users who look up the articles that the 'pedians write find Wikipedia from Google and other search engines. They come from all segments of the Internet society, and most of them know very little about installing software. Many might never have done so; they don't know where to find OGG decoders, and even if we tell them, they'll find it much too bothersome to be worthwhile. In contrast, their computers can play WAV files right out of the box. Wikipedia has to make a decision: do we want to include such users, or exclude them? WAV includes them; OGG excludes them.

In my opinion, Wikipedia would do a great disservice to its users to require OGG players. However, if Wikipedia had software to decode OGG files, and then encode them in a choice of formats that Wikipedia users can utilize (with buttons that say things like "click here for a Windows sound file"), there would be no harm in accepting OGG files. Fg2 02:00, Aug 14, 2004 (UTC)

This page to be scrapped

Just to let everyone know, I've been tasked with scrapping this page and rewriting it. There are some glaring ommissions here, and almost a complete lack of how-to information. I need to talk some issues over with wikitech first, but just be aware of what's coming. →Raul654 19:53, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC)

sound format/appropriate

I think we should not use lossy formats such as ogg, mp3 or the like for audio.

I think we should not use proprietary formats either.

I recommend Shorten/shn, Flawless Audio/flac or mkw.

But I have to ask is storing media our task? there are other sites that already do that... archive.org for example

No, storing media isn't our task. But providing multimedia illustration of article information (e.g., bird calls, brief samples of tunes) seems well within our task. Much of what I've seen used so far (in any format) seems to be along these lines. -- Jeff Q 11:28, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

yes, that's a good thing, that's encyclopedic. at this point I have to bow out, as I don't know jill about lossy formats and compatibility... but I will say that I was real intimidated by shn and flac both at the start, FWIW, so it might be bothersome.

...that flash idea someone mentioned sounds promising for smaller files.Pedant 21:06, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I think sticking with the OGG only policy is probably wisest, it's in keeping with the free nature of wiki, and the good quality at low bitrates will be nicer to the bandwidth. However, encoding tutorials/guidlines are probably a must for a majority of users, and any sounds linked will need to also link to a page explaining how to get them to play. --Zippedmartin 01:45, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

(Speaking as the one who scrapped and rewrote this page) - I linked the necessary software from here and even put together/got permission for the Windows download for timidity. If someone else wants to come along and write the necessary tutorials, I be very grateful. Otherwise, I'll get around to it eventually.

About formats - we use ogg. Next to mp3, it's pretty much the only compressed sound format that has even a modicum of support in most people's software. End of discussion

About whether or not we should be storing sounds - yes, absolutely positively we should - storing media. In fact, that's what the upcoming Wikicommons will be for. If you don't like it, take it up with Jimbo. →Raul654 01:52, Aug 7, 2004 (UTC)

If we have enormous bandwidth, great... I can't wait for Moe article to have a link to Moe_at_the_Scrapyard_1992-02-25_full_show.ogg etc. Is this actually going to happen? and Every Grateful Dead concert ever played? hey, if we can actually do it, and handle the bandwidth, I'm all for it.Pedant 03:36, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Clips of copyrighted songs?

What's the law about using clips of copyrighted songs? Can you use a short clip without being in violation of copyright? Thanks. Mattingly23 14:30, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Copyright FAQ; specifically, the fair use section. →Raul654 16:17, Aug 7, 2004 (UTC)

Uploaded Vorbis files

I don't understand the motivation for the list of uploaded Ogg Vorbis music clips that was recently pasted into this article. It's absurdly dynamic, incredibly incomplete, and not a proper element of an article on sound guidelines for Wikipedia. If there is a reason to create a complete list, it should be in its own article, like List of Ogg Vorbis music clips. I'd move it myself, but I have no current use for Ogg files and feel someone who thinks it useful should do so. I'm inclined to delete this section, and plan to in a week or two unless someone justifies its inclusion here. — Jeff Q 23:33, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

(Speaking as the one who rewrote most of this page) - I agree, the list needs to be deleted. →Raul654 23:46, Aug 15, 2004 (UTC)

The list was previously in Vorbis, where it certainly doesn't belong. As it is an article about Wikipedia, it should go in the Wikipedia: namespace. -- stw (Talk) 09:03, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

This list is impossible to maintain, and adds very little useful information. →Raul654 09:43, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)