Talk:England

Refactored. Discussions about Cornwall moved to Talk:England/Cornwall. Marnanel 18:02, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Flag

I removed the reference to an Act of Parliament in 1908 approving names for the Union Jack, as I don't believe there has ever been such an Act. If there was such an Act, then what was it called? --Zundark, 2001 Oct 17

See: http://www.flaginst.demon.co.uk/fiunionflag.htm
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb.html

Neither of these mentions an Act of Parliament. As far as I can tell, they refer to a parliamentary answer (see under "Use and status of the flag" in the second of your links). --Zundark, 2001 Oct 17

More flag

Can someone explain why the bit at the top about the English flag links to a page about the United Kingdom flag? Shouldn't that be a "See also" at the bottom? And the external link goes to a page which again describes the Union flag, which is confusing for a page which is supposed to be about England. Just curious... cferrero 10:12 Mar 12, 2003 (UTC)

Coat-of-arms

I went to the Westminster Parliament yesterday. Among other things, I was looking for the coat-of-arms with the (Three) Lions of England. The building is replete with such, some even brilliantly coloured, but alas, the visitors were not allowed to photograph inside the building except in the St Stephen's Chapel, where I took a photograph of a plain (not coloured) English coat-of-arms -- I will upload this soon. I think Wikipedia would appreciate anyone providing a coloured example. (See ) --Kaihsu 10:03, 23 Sep 2003 (UTC)

THE THREE LIONS EMBLEM IS NOT AN ENGLISH EMBLEM!

[I believe the three lions emblem to be foreign not English! I believe it's Norman not English! England started way before the Normans ever existed. The Normans were not French either which seems to be a common misconception thanks to a lack of true English history IN TURN THANKS TO britain's socialist type governments.user: M. Anderson 2:02 July 26 2004]

Well, but heraldry hadn't really developed yet before the Norman conquest -- the "coats of arms" sometimes assigned to Edward the Confessor, Alfred the Great, and so forth are retrospective mediaeval inventions. The three lions passant, likewise, were developed well after the Norman conquest. So they're English enough. Doops 21:00, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Culture of England

Is there really no Culture of England? Surely there must an Englishman (Englishperson?) with some sense of what has been going on all these years. :) fvincent 17:30, Dec 3, 2003 (UTC)

I am not English, but there appear to be a number of different cultures, all happy to ridicule the others. ( 17:34, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Anti-English Bias Yet Again

Could anyone explain to me the purpose of placing a racist French insult so high on the England page and peppering the information which follows it with the negative anti-English and, usually incorrect, opinions of the neighbouring celtic nations?

 I have checked the pages for France, Ireland and Scotland and there is no abusive comment posted about those countries and the data is not composed in the same negative or critical tone.
 Yet again we see England being used as the world's whipping boy and it is unfair and silly.
 Do you want your online encyclopedia to be taken seriously?

If what you're referring to is this paragraph:

The Marquis de Ximenés, an 18th century diplomat, is credited with coining the phrase La perfide Albion, or "perfidious Albion", which is still heard from the French -- also an affectionate term, in its own way. It is also used by the Irish about the English but in a less affectionate manner, suggesting a degree of untrustworthiness. The Irish also refer to England as "pagan England".

["Pagan England"? I have never heard anyone Irish say this. I think this is your OWN opinion! If you want to talk about pre-christianity go ahead as the "Irish" were also pagans. Well, what are the Irish anyway come to think of it? They say they are 'celtic' but where does the name Fitzherbert come from? Who founded Dublin? Maybe you can try www.homestead.com/englishheathenism/ to] User: M. Anderson 1:38 july 26 2004

then I'd like to say I agree. This has no real place in an article on England. And I'm Irish. Bmills 17:22, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Perfidious England

I have removed the gratuitous and racist insult because no-one has given me an explanation as to what useful purpose it served. Remarks such as that can only serve to heighten racial tension not ease it.

Well, there may be some small purpose to leaving the remarks in. I actually came upon this talk page specifically looking for the origins of the term "Perfidious Albion" which I've heard in quite a number of places. I appreciate the desire to remove hateful sentiments, but at the same time, please be wary of erasing history when doing so. I'd like to still be able to go to wikipedia and find out the background of this (in)famous phrase. If the explanation has to be couched in disclaimers, then so be it. [21:30, 20 Feb 2004]

England's legal identity

"England's formal legal identity is that of the kingdom of England and Wales." Really? There has never been a Kingdom of England and Wales, and I have never seen this term used. "England and Wales" has some reality as an administrative, legal and statistical unit of the UK, though much less than it used to now that Wales has its own legislature. But it is absurd to say that "England's formal legal identity" (assuming there is such a thing) includes Wales. Unless someone can justify this sentence it shoule be deleted. Adam 13:52, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

My understanding is that historically there were three kingdoms, England, Scotland and Ireland and the Principality of Wales. With the 1707 Act of Union with Scotland, the kingdom of Great Britain, incorporating Wales, began to emerge. This kingdom was a fully fledged fact by the time of the 1800 act which brought about the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, more recently the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. There was never an official kingdom of Wales or of England and Wales.

England, as I understand it, has only a negative official identity: the bit of Britain not covered by the regional assemblies of Scotland and Wales would just about sum it up. Bmills 14:10, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It's straightforward enough. Wales's identity as a separate legal domain was extinguished by its annexation in the Middle Ages, leading to the creation of a single legal entity called "England and Wales" in which a set of common laws applies. Scotland and Northern Ireland are separate legal entities. You'll notice, in virtually anything to do with legal matters, that a distinction is made between England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. See the University of Leeds's summary at http://www.leeds.ac.uk/law/hamlyn/uklegsys.htm . -- ChrisO 14:23, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

None of that answers my point that the "Kingdom of England and Wales" never existed and certainly doesn't now, and that therefore the sentence is wrong. Now that Wales has its own legislature I'd be surprised if the expression "England and Wales" any longer has much meaning or currency. Adam 14:29, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. But the article is better now without the "kingdom". Clearly the new assembly has changed the "weight" of "England and Wales". Bmills 14:34, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Adam has a fair point regarding the misleading use of the word "kingdom" - hopefully my clarifications of the article have cleared up this point. But the expression "England and Wales" definitely does still have a lot of validity. Devolution has simply given the Welsh Assembly powers to pass secondary legislation affecting the counties of Wales. It hasn't established a separate legal domain for Wales and the two countries continue to share a single legal system governed from Westminster, which retains the exclusive right to pass primary legislation affecting Wales. See http://www.dca.gov.uk/constitution/devolution/ukdev.htm for an explanation of the devolution settlement. -- ChrisO 14:46, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The Kingdom was always merely England. Wales was ignored as a separate entity. In the 1960s when the Wales and Berwick Act was repealed that references to "England" were not to be taken to include "Wales". Pre Welsh Assembly most primary & secondary legislation affected England and Wales so the term grew in use, but there was no change in the subservience of Wales to England, whether that was justified or not garryq 18:38, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm afraid it's true. Wales was legally and nominally part of England. Deb 18:45, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Some school histories...

I'm English and certainly in England we don't start our histories at 1066 although it's the one year everyone knows in this country. I consider the statement "This may be because the English are proud of their long history of independence, and therefore like to start the clock after the last successful invasion." to be nothing more than another Mel Gibson inspired (see 'The Patriot' & 'Braveheart') dig at the English. It certainly adds absolutely nothing positive to an article about England. It may be that in other countries they start English history at 1066 but everyone in England is taught to be proud of both King Alfred (pre 1066) and the fact that William the Conqueror was the last person to successfully invade. We're certainly too proud of our long history to shorten it by 200 years! These are the reasons that I am deleting this line. I don't agree with the first line ("Some school histories of England...") either. This certainly is not true in England but I can't speak for other countries. That's why I'm not deleting that line. This is the first time I've posted anything on this excellent website so please tell me if I'm doing anything wrong. I'm eager to learn. I've read the NPOV description and I think this comes under that heading. STAN

Agree with you about the line in question. There is a sense in which the statement is true, but it is not the sense in which most people would read it, which I think justifes its removal.

History, technically speaking, is not "what happened" but rather "the record of what happened". The Normans were excellent documenters, and from 1066 onwards we have huge quantities of factual data about life in England upon which to base our analysis. Records of pre-conquest England, on the other hand, are extremely patchy at best. Much of what we are taught about Alfred, for example, seems to have been first documented long after his death, and very little about him can be established with certainty. Many (although not all) historians have believed that their job is to establish facts through the interpretation of historical documents, and they have no mandate to speculate about events that were not documented.

Turning now to the other sense of "history", there was a time when English public (ie. posh private) schools did teach history starting with the conqueror. This was mainly because they were run by and for the aristocracy, who claimed mostly Norman descent and didn't consider what had come before their arrival to be part of their own history. But you are quite correct that it is a long time since English schoolchildren have been taught that nothing happened before 1066, and very few English people today labour under this illusion!

Another reason to remove the line in question is that, despite what is still taught in English schools, the last successful invasion was not in 1066. There seems to be no doubt that William of Orange invaded 1688, but he used the old usurper's trick of pretending it had never happened and that he had acquired the throne by peaceful means.....

BTW, your approach to editing (to think carefully, consider points of view, edit confidently and explain why) is impeccable, and if you carry on like this you'll be a highly valued contributor. Welcome to Wikipedia! Cambyses 16:06, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

RE: William of Orange, he was invited over be the English parliament, so technically didn't invade. Also James fled wiothout a fight. Grunners 04:48, 17 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Many invading forces in history have had the support of certain factions within the political system of the invaded country, but it doesn't negate the fact of the invasion. Parliament wasn't (and still isn't, for that matter) legally the sovereign body, and it had no legal authority to depose the monarch or choose a new one. The fact that James fled doesn't make it any less of an invasion, either. The Polish president fled the 1939 German invasion, but very few people deny that it was an invasion..... Best wishes, Cambyses 01:58, 19 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Independent Nation?

"It is of interest to note that England is far from being an independent nation since it has no national government, has no currency of its own, has no armed forces, etc". Surely this is a confusing sentence to include. All the things mentioned represent Great Britain and seeing as England is part of Great Britain they must represent England too. True enough they are shared with the other British nations but to say England is far from independent is misleading as it is not ruled by any other country.

The thought also occurs that the sentence quoted above is equally applicable to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (except for the bit about national governments, although their power is limited) but if we were to say 'Scotland is far from being an independent nation' for the above reasons it would be deleted instantaniously and rightly so. Surely therefore it shouldn't be included on the England page? User:Pazzer 31 May 2004

Agree that deleting it is a good idea, since it confuses two distinct concepts - those of being a nation and of being independent. According to the definition in the nation article (which I think is reasonable, and which we should in any case try to be consistent with), being a nation is nothing to do with independence. Rather "a nation is a group of people sharing aspects of their language, culture and/or ethnicity". By this definition, England and Wales would seem to be nations. (Scotland and NI, for different reasons, could perhaps be described as two nations each, but that is another story!). I think it would, on the other hand, be both fair and accurate to make it clear that England is not an independent state, since it is governed as part of a larger state. Best wishes, Cambyses 00:55, 31 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Official Languages

Since there seems to be a certain amount of disagreement about 'Official Languages', it might be good to post a reference or explain why it is not 'Official Languages: English and Welsh', which is what most people would assume. At the very least, if there is some bizarre reason why there are no official languages then an entry 'de facto English and Welsh' should be added. DJ Clayworth 19:15, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Why would anyone assume that the national languages of England are English and Welsh? As far as I know, there are no official figures on the number of Welsh speakers in England (the Welsh language question wasn't asked outside Wales), but you hardly run into Welsh speakers everywhere you go in England.

As far as I'm aware, the closest thing that comes to an establishment of Welsh as an official language is the Welsh Language Act 1993 [1]. This doesn't actually prescribe an official language; it only says that the two languages must be treated equally. Even if it did prescribe an official language, it only applies to Wales, and not England. Marnanel 19:42, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Agree with all that Marnanel, there is little scope for disagreement and the anon adding welsh to the article is plainly wrong. As for "bizarre", it's not really not so bizarre - England is just that old.

Finally about listing "de facto" languages... rest assured that welsh would come a looong way down the list of languages spoken in England ordered by number of speakers! Pcb21| Pete 15:37, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The Welsh Language Act requires public bodies to treat Welsh or English equally when providing services in Wales. Whether or not this makes any language official is irrelevant to this article. Asda and Cornwall County Council are promoting the use of Cornish but this does not make them official, even if my POV does want it to be so. No act of parliament has prescribed an offical language; but if it did it then it will need the Queen, whose title was officially proclaimed in Latin, to give her assent, which is given in Norman French. Anybody want to add these to the official language list ;) --garryq 21:08, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

WikiUser 19:20, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC) - Re "Removed well known factual error which is also of course racist against the English." SOURCE: General knowledge of anyone born before 1960 and: www.visitbritain.com:

"VisitBritain funded by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport was launched in July 1999 as a transformation of the existing English Tourist Board. VisitBritain is therefore a strategic body brokering partnerships,setting standards,developing policy, providing research and forecasts and championing issues at the highest level.

VisitBritain's Press and PR department produces press releases for journalists."

ADDED WikiUser 19:47, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC) - "Languages spoken in Britain There are two official languages in Britain; English and Welsh. Although not an offical language, Scottish Gaelic is spoken in some parts of Scotland, as well as English. " http://www.visitbritain.com/facts_figures/language.htm

Okay, and what does that have to do with whether Welsh is an official language of England? Marnanel 19:42, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

WikiUser 19:47, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC) - What you arguing for. I'm editing the page and tellin people why in the appropiate place like everyone else does. JUST WHAT IS IT WITH YOU PEOPLE YOU THINK I'M JEWISH OR SOMETHIN? England doesn't have a SEPARATE official language because England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are all one cunry. It called The U.K. -heard of it?

There is no national language of the UK, and no national language of England. The Welsh Language Act does give some status to Welsh (although whether it makes Welsh "official" is debatable), but that Act only applies within Wales. It has no force in England. Therefore I reverted your changes. (Incidentally, I find your comments about Judaism extremely offensive.) Marnanel 19:58, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

WikiUser responded to this with a further off-topic rant filled with invective and personal abuse. I reverted this to remove it from the talk page. --Michael Snow 20:44, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

WikiUser 20:12, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC) - You have no right under the wikipedia guidlelines to censor my views and prevent users discussing things here. "Only my friends can discuss the articles here" is not a part of the wikipedia guidelines. TO Marnanel: As I said before it was fascistly censored I find your antisemitic comment to me offensive and it is also illegal to post it on a UK carried web site under the Race Relations Act.

Since you deleted the suggestions that Michael and I made on your talk page, let me reproduce them here:

Regarding your edits to Talk:England - I removed your most recent statements there, as they had little relationship to the topic of the article, and were filled with needless invective and personal abuse. Please do not post material of this type on talk pages. If you continue to do so, I will have to ask someone to block you from editing. --Michael Snow 20:48, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

For the record - so that nobody can say you weren't warned - I'd like to invite you to read Wikipedia: Wikiquette and Wikipedia:Civility. Repeated violations of these policies, especially regarding civility, are not well regarded in these parts. -- ChrisO 00:44, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

As for your complaints (Race Relations Act indeed!), you are clearly either a loon or a troll. Nobody takes you seriously, nobody is going to let you add inaccurate claims to article pages and - if you had bothered to read it, which I'm sure you hadn't - Wikipedia:Civility gave other editors the right to delete the illiterate, hate-filled, spittle-flecked rant that you posted last night. You've had your warning now so I suggest that you either grow up and start making positive contributions, or go somewhere else. -- ChrisO 22:27, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

WikiUser 17:57, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC) - With regard to the 11 lines of garbage above from the loons and trolls and childish liars Michael Snow and ChrisO it's great as further evidence of all I've been saying about their misuse of The Wikipedia. As usual I've recorded it along with all other "histories" as a record to use against the owners of The Wikipedia.

National Anthem

I seperated "National Anthem" into de facto and unofficial because not only would God Save the Queen thought of by most people as the national anthem but is the one used whenever national anthem is specified to be played - military regulations don't refer to "God Save the Queen" or "Royal Anthem" --garryq 18:22, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

But the military is the military of the UK; there is no English military. DJ Clayworth 17:52, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

My point concerned the style given to the anthem when its playing is prescribed. --garryq 22:17, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Should not we be talking of a state song rather the a national anthem, which is an attribute of a sovereign state? --garryq 22:17, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Flag

"The red cross acted as a symbol for Crusaders in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries AD and was subsequently used as a national flag until 1606 when it became a component of the Union Flag for Great Britain. At that time period, the Republic of Guinea used it also."

I don't think there was a Republic of Guinea in 1606, and the modern flag of Guinea does not have any cross. Am I missing something here? Gzornenplatz 23:18, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I cannot find a reference to Guinea at this time either, further the proclamation of 1606 onle defeined the flags to be worn by shipos at sea, --garryq 15:30, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I found it, it was the Republic of Genoa that had the same flag! Gzornenplatz 16:45, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

National anthem

(18th June '04) I have removed the mention of "national anthem". I have been meaning to do this since I discovered Wikipedia many months ago, so I have not edited without thought. Please note this is a factual edit. England can have no national anthem as the countries of the U.K. are not nations. The nation is the U.K. and the national anthem is "God Save The Queen". This should be put on the U.K. page only. Also there can be no such thing as a recognised (or easily agreed on un-official anthem), so if people feel there are candidates for such a thing they should try putting this in a contribution to the main text. - WikiUser.

indeed. A good reference here is the Commonwealth Games where each of the 'home countries' (who compete separately) use a different anthem and none use GStQ. Don't recall what they do use though! --VampWillow 20:43, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Well, the England national football team certainly do use God Save the Queen, at least the last time I checked... Morwen - Talk 20:45, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The Scottish certainly don't though! CHecking about the Commonwealth Games, btw, I find Land of Hope and Glory for England para 5, [2] & [3], Flower of Scotland for, uh, Scotland. Wales use "Hen wlad fy nhadau" (Land of my Fathers) and Northern Ireland "A Londonderry Air". --VampWillow 21:08, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Replaced "Anthems" (not "National Anthems")

England is not an independent state, but to claim that is not a nation is contrary to common sense. You are also denying the nationhood of the other peoples of the UK in doing this. This is very dodgy ground. By extension you are denying nationhood to Kurds, Palestinians, Tibetans (and a few years ago) to East Timorese, Latvians, Ukrainians, Lithuanians etc. A nation does not necessarily equate to a state, or vice versa. You need to understand that the UK is a mystical union: A Nation made up of Nations, and a Country made up of Countries. -- Simon Hedges

WikiUser 20:46, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC) - You've got it completely the wrong way round. The U.K. is the real thing and the idea that England etc. are nations is the myth. But stop using the Wikipedia to call me racist. I'm not denying nationhood to anyone. If you don't like what I say get the British people and the government to change it.

The government seems to think that England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are countries: [4]. That page also uses the adjective "national" to describe something applying only to England, strongly implying that they think they are nations as well. So, whatever you do, don't call upon the British government to support your silly claims. Proteus (Talk) 21:00, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

WikiUser 16:39, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC) - Hey cut the godamn abuse ok. I'm not your slave. If you can't use the Wikipedia without abusing people then don't use it. Hey! funny proteus abuses the guidelines and yet no group multi attack from ChrisO and all the other clique that own the "England" page? Curious. Had your "talk" page filled with abuse by the above WikiPedia owners yet? No! Funny!! And what makes you think that I; "called upon the British government to support my facts"? It's Simon Hedges that's wanting things changed not me.

I certainly wasn't abusive, but if that's the way you conduct discussions I wouldn't be surprised if people are rude to you. Oh, and: what makes you think that I; "called upon the British government to support my facts"? "If you don't like what I say get the British people and the government to change it." Proteus (Talk) 16:53, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Notice of request for arbitration against abuse by chrisO.

WikiUser 20:38, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC) - I want to note that chrisO keeps erasing all my hard work when I have followed all guidelines, in removing factual innacuracies and racist comments against my country. I am applying for arbitration from his abusive behaviour, breaking all Wikipedia guidelines as he is obviously just indulging in vandalism and abuse.

"The best way to resolve a dispute is to avoid it in the first place.

Be respectful to others and their points of view (for some guidelines, see Wikiquette). "

WikiUser 20:50, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC) - Removed factual error by vandle chrisO.

"England does not have an official anthem of its own but Jerusalem and Land of Hope and Glory are both widely regarded - unofficially - as English national hymns (although the latter more properly refers to Great Britain, not just England). "

They are in fact as any schoolchild knows regarded nationally as songs asssociated with Britain and The British Empire.

Eh ? The last two lines of Jerusalem are "Till we have built Jerusalem, In England's green and pleasant land." - sound's like it's about England to me. Mintguy (T) 21:20, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

and Land of Hope and Glory is used as the English anthem at the Commonwealth Games (where the four British nations compete independently). Perhaps any schoolchild is ill-informed, and not a good source for compiling encyclopedia articles. - MykReeve 21:24, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

and WikiUser was evidently asleep during the England-Croatia match (and all other English football internationals), where "God Save The Queen" is played as the de facto national anthem of England. Also, why on earth is s/he objecting to the assertion that "Blighty" is a term for England? Might I suggest a look in the Oxford English Dictionary? -- ChrisO 21:37, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

WikiUser 20:04, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC) - FULL version from my last edit note. (See England "history" page.):

" Restored to more factual version before vandalism and breach of guidelines by chrisO and others, and removed some factual errors and racist comment -- Jwrosenzweig, you're cutting material that is factual and you haven't discussed it in talk. You are lying. You know full well that I HAVE discussed it on "talk" and included detailed records on each change. You are also breaking the Wikipedia guidelines by subjecting me to personal abuse: "- don't try to sneak it past by claiming Chris is a "vandle" [sic]" "

I wish to inform Wikipedia users that the following people are breaking the Wikipedia guidelines; MykReeve, ChrisO and Jwrosenzweig.

Also that I have applied for arbitration on the "England" page- despite the abusive message posted by ChrisO saying I was lying about that - and also users should note that sensible discussion on this page is being prevented because the above named are abusing me if I try to discuss my changes to the page.

I see no abuse, just disagreement. I think these deletions and changes are too extreme to leave in place without more discussion. This needs to be worked out here before these changes are made IMO -- sannse (talk) 20:22, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

WikiUser 20:38, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC) - You haven't even bothered to read this page, with the relative material even though it's only a couple of inches above your "comment". The changes are minor and involve basic facts that all English people over 12 would be expected to know.

WikiUser, I reject the assertion that I was lying -- I don't see any discussion preceding your edits, just a note announcing them. You haven't given anything that resembles detailed evidence that I can see -- you continue to assert that "any child knows" what you are asserting, a fact in serious dispute by several editors who have marshaled some evidence in support. I am sorry you feel I personally abused you -- I had no intention of doing so. However, you referred to a good editor (ChrisO) who was and is acting in good faith as a "vandle" in an edit summary -- this remains in public display permanently, and cannot be erased. I was upset by this, and may have spoken more harshly than I should have, for which I apologize. I will, however, continue to insist that serious and solid evidence be offered here to justify the changes you are making. Appeals to common sense are not enough, particularly since others have provided evidence which contradicts your claims. I look forward to seeing your evidence, and promise to remain open-minded as to the question of whether or not you are right. I simply need to see more evidence. Jwrosenzweig 21:01, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

WikiUser and others: Before we start going to formal arbitration, lets see if we can sort this out by simple discussion. WikiUser, you seem to have deleted some chunks of text because you think they are wrong. Please explain what is wrong with them here. Be precise. For whoever added the text, please explain why you think it is right.

Please think about the possibility that rather than just deleting text because it contains some errors, maybe it could be replaced with something slightly different. Please also come up with references to back up what you say ("It's obvious" isn't going to be helpful.) If you have examples of when these songs, or these terms, were used, say so here. DJ Clayworth 20:54, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Royal Motto is "Dieu et mon droit", right?

212.251.91.238 changed the motto section from:

Royal motto: Dieu et mon droit (God and my right)

into

Royal motto: Honi soit qui mal y pense (French: Shamed be he who thinks ill of it)

Now, as far as I can see, the latter is the motto of the Order of the Garter only, and the former is the motto of the monarch. As such, the former should be in the article, right? Am I wrong? —Gabbe 20:51, Jun 25, 2004 (UTC)

I think so, yes.

James F. (talk) 21:11, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

"the City of London is small but the city of London is a city not a town"

Pcb21 said:

the City of London is small but the city of London is a city not a town

Is that true? Does London (in the sense of the place that Livingston is the mayor of) actually have city status? Marnanel 20:28, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yes. ;-) --VampWillow 20:36, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

In the sense of "a place with a Royal Charter making it a city", no, but it's certainly not a town (it contains many towns, and a couple of cities to boot). It's not a County, either (the County of London was, but that's been abolished). I'm not sure there really is a word to describe its official status. Proteus (Talk) 21:53, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Its an 'administrative area'. It indeed doesn't have official city status, but that doesn't mean its not a city. However, if we were being pedantic, it doesn't have town status either, so say that is not really a city, but is just a large town, is pedantic and self-inconsistent. Morwen - Talk 11:31, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Of course, in terms of being 'self-inconsistent', the 'City' known worldwide as 'London' (ie.the conurbation) containing two 'Cities' ('of London' and 'of Westminster') is fully consistent with the country/nation 'United Kingdom' containing four countries/nations 'England', 'Scotland', 'Wales', (Northern) Ireland', so perfectly reasonable really for the UK! --VampWillow 15:15, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Does London (in the sense of the place that Livingston is the mayor of) actually have city status?

No. The honour of "City" belongs to the square mile. But the conurbation has been known informally as a city for decades. Parliament considered the 19th century's "Great Stink" a London problem even though they are based in Westminster, and London County was some years in the future. --garryq 22:06, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It is listed as a city on List of cities in the United Kingdom. Rmhermen 19:04, Jun 30, 2004 (UTC)

That's the City of London, a small area ("the Square Mile") inside London. Proteus (Talk) 21:28, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Let's not that other city around the corner, the City of Westminster.

All this is legally true, but it would be peverse to exclude greater London from a list of cities for this reason. Mark Richards 18:17, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Angles / Saxons

In editing the opening paragraph on the name "England," I tried to tone down the decisive language which asserted that the divide between Celtic and mainland European languages' name for England (Saxon-origin vs. Angle-origin) derived from their different points of contact -- since the theory doesn't seem to hold water. Problems with it: 1) the Saxons weren't (as stated) the inhabitants of SE England (and hence the gateways of mainland trade routes)-- SE England included Saxons (Sussex and Essex) and Jutes (Kent). I suppose there was probably East Anglian seafaring too -- but surely not more so than from London or Dover! 2) The theory doesn't account for the BIG question -- why does English itself refer to "Angles" and not "Saxons"? Until I see evidence otherwise, it seems quite likely to me that Angleterre is derived by analogy from an already existing word "England." So, basically, if somebody has a source on this jump in; but until then, I prefer less ambitious language. Doops 21:20, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Country or nation?

I am keen to avoid opening a can of worms here, as I know some people get quite worked up about these things (I've just been catching up with the WikiUser saga), but which term is best? I am aware that some may feel it's important not to mislead uninformed readers into thinking England is an independant state and so would think country is best avoided. However, Scotland opens with the sentence: "Scotland, or in Gaelic, Alba, is a country (formerly an independent kingdom) of northwest Europe, occupying the northern third of the island of Great Britain." I'm quite happy to think of Scotland as a country even though I know very well it's not an independant state, but if Scotland can be accurately described as a country surely England is no different. If no one has any objections I will change nation to country in the sentence: "England is the largest, the most populous, and the most densely populated nation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, occupying the south-eastern portion of the island of Great Britain." Am I just going over old ground here, or was the phrasing arbitrarily chosen some time ago and since been assumed to be authoritative? — Trilobite (Talk) 12:18, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The fact of the matter is, that though some people might see a distinction between the words 'country' and 'nation', they are infact synonymous. Look one up in the dictionary and it will list the other one. Some people might say that England is a country and that the United kingdom is a nation and others may say that the United Kingdom is a country and England is a nation. I don't think it it entirely incorrect to say one or the other. Mintguy (T) 13:15, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Demographics

I fear that, in working so hard to make the "demographics" section balanced and accurate, we've inflated the question of "Englishness" into excessive prominence. (I'm certainly a guilty party.) Shouldn't a demographics section really be talking more about the urban/rural shift, the north-south economic divide, levels of education and home ownership -- real demographic stuff like that -- and less about issues of terminology? Doops 23:27, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)