Closed issues

These issues appear to be addressed to the satisfaction of all. Herschel: please move issues you have raised here as and when they are addressed to your satisfaction. Thanks. Martin 20:37, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Healy influence

3. "LaRouche was heavily influenced by Healy's conspiratorial world-view and his advocacy of violence and intimidation, something foreign to the intellectual tradition of mainstream Trotskyism."

Again, no source cited, because none exists. This is naked propaganda, beyond innuendo. -- Herschel

What part of it is wrong? john k 03:35, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

How does Adam know that LaRouche "was heavily influenced by Healy's conspiratorial world-view and his advocacy of violence and intimidation"? Answer: he doesn't. He got it from Dennis King, who presumably is a mind-reader. --Herschelkrustofsky 10:11, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

These three objections reflect LaRouche's retrospective re-writing of his biography. He now wishes to deny he was ever a communist, despite being a member of a communist party for nearly 20 years. It is true that he was always a rather eccentric communist (which is why he joined the SWP rather than the CPUSA), and that he got steadily nuttier through the 60s, but that doesn't alter the fact that he was a dedicated communist. Adam 04:03, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

There's quite a lot of stuff out there on Healy that could be used to source the statement that Healy had a catastrophist view and was prone to violence. Try Harry Ratner's memoirs of being in the Healy's group. There's quite a lot of good stuff on Healy on the What Next? website. AndyL 04:06, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Straw man. Put it in article about Healy, unless you can quote LaRouche on Healy. --Herschelkrustofsky 10:11, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

This is innuendo. How does Adam know what LaRouche was thinking? Did LaRouche say he was "heavily influenced" by Healy, or anything Healy advocated? -- Herschel

This should probably be put differently. "Critics have argued that LaRouche was heavily influenced..."

I've modified this. Others on the left have made this observation so I've made a qualification accordingly.

state control

"In practice this amounts to advocating centralised, though not socialist, state control of the economy, with heavy state investment in industry and science, and presumably administered by members of the "Promethian" elite such as LaRouche himself."

Clumsy and obvious innuendo. -- Herschel

seems like a fair description of LaRouche to me.

Is that your conception of NPOV? I hope you are kidding. And if not, the matter is straightforward: LaRouche is on the record of being a supporter of "Big Government" a la FDR. That means that the citizenry would control the regulation of the economy by voting for a government that suits its needs. The alternative is to have the economy regulated by an unelected Wall Street establishment, typified by the Fed. Adam's formulation implies that LaRouche is in favor of some sort of dictatorship. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The "Promethian elite" clause has been removed in the current version. Martin 18:07, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

fundraising

16. "Like most cults, the LaRouche organisation devotes much of its energy to the sale of literature and the soliciting of small donations at airports and on university campuses."

Innuendo. The LaRouche organization raises money exactly as do other political movements, except without the emphasis on large foundation grants.

I agree that this is problematic. Take out the "like most cults" bit and it should be fine. john k 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps "like most cults" is overselling the argument. A lot of groups that aren't cults sell literature on university campuses or airports. I've removed the first three words from the passage.

telemarketing

17. "It also operates more sophisticated telemarketing groups, soliciting donations by phone, usually under the guise of various patriotic front organisations to conceal the real source of the phone calls."

Bullshit, if you'll pardon my French.

I would suspect that this is true, but it should be sourced more clearly. What are the front organizations? john k 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I believe this was proven in court

Then you should have no problem documenting it. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I removed that part. Weed Harper 06:18, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

what were those convictions?

"In 1988 LaRouche was sentenced to fifteen years imprisonment for illegally soliciting unsecured loans and tax code violations."

This is inaccurate; the charges were all conspiracy charges, and there was no allegation that the loans were illegally solicited. The alleged conspiracy (see significant omissions from the current version) was to deliberately fail to repay the loans. -- Herschel

I've changed this so its consistent with the Washington Post report.

Rosenfeld

"He cites as evidence for this a September 24, 1976 opinion piece in the Washington Post, entitled "NCLC: A Domestic Political Menace," and written by Stephen Rosenfeld, a senior editor (who is Jewish)."

Whether Rosenfeld is Jewish is irrelevant; lacking any evidence, Adam is trying to make a case for LaRouche being an anti-Semite, purely through insinuation.

I've removed the reference to Rosenfeld being Jewish

Queen as drug runner

. "Queen Elizabeth was a drug runner."

This opinion is attributed to LaRouche -- it is a well known hoax. The author of the quote was Mark Nykanen, who was working as a telejournalist for NBC in 1980 when the quote was fabricated.

I don't know about this specific quote. But a quick look at any issue of the New Federalist shows similarly wacky comments about the British royal family to be omnipresent in LaRouchite publications. john k 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Fine. Use a real quote, then.--Herschelkrustofsky 20:15, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

This is not a hoax -- I remember listening to LaRouche explain it on a television interview many years ago. His explanation was that England did supervise the importation of drugs in the 19th century to other countries (e.g. China), and that Queen Elizabeth symbolizes England. Both statements are true, although the resulting description of QEII as a drug-runner is misleading (and in my opinion a bizarrely self-defeating way to make a point) Slrubenstein

Your memory does not mislead you. LaRouche did frequently discuss the 19th Century role of the British, although to put it a bit more sharply, they turned India into an opium plantation, and then fought the Opium War against China to force them to buy the product. They also pioneered the business of drug money laundering in colonies like Hong Kong, the Bahamas and the Cayman Islands. However, LaRouche would never say that QEII "symbolizes" England; he would be more apt to say that she is the titular CEO of one of the world's largest conglomerates, including (as I recall) companies like Rio Tinto Zinc, as well as other, shadier enterprizes. These charges are all completely reasonable and verifiable. Mark Nykanen's role was to substitute a bizarrely self-defeating formulation, attribute it to LaRouche, and use it as a straw man. --Herschelkrustofsky 00:01, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Prometheans

"He began to regard himself and his followers as "Prometheans," superior to all other people" This is a fabrication. LaRouche counterposed the term "Promethean" to Friedrich Nietzsche's categories of "Apollonian" and "Dionysian" in the discussion of Aesthetics, arguing that Nietzsche's approach was wrong.

Should be able to be documented from LaRouchite publications of the time period.

I don't understand this so I can't comment :)

"He began to regard himself and his followers as "Prometheans," superior to all other people" This is a fabrication. LaRouche counterposed the term "Promethean" to Friedrich Nietzsche's categories of "Apollonian" and "Dionysian" in the discussion of Aesthetics, arguing that Nietzsche's approach was wrong.

I took that line out. Weed Harper 06:16, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Twice. Adam should provide some justification before he puts it in again. Weed Harper 14:22, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

violent and disruptive tactics

"'Operation Mop-Up' began with LaRouche's declaration that 'We must take hegemony from the CP-from here on in, the CP cannot hold a meeting on the East Coast. We'll mop them up in two months.'" Presumably you have a source for this quote?

"and under his direction the NCLC adopted the violent and disruptive tactics of fascist groups of the 1920s and '30s."

"...under his direction the NCLC adopted violent and disruptive tactics, physically attacking meetings of the SWP, the Communist Party and other groups, who were classed by LaRouche as "left-protofascists." During "Operation Mop-Up," NCLC members engaged in a series of well-documented beatings of members of these groups."

"Well-documented" would mean arrests; if you intend to accept allegations in the press by LaRouche's opponents, you ought to also include the FOIA airtel, which is actually "well-documented". -- Herschel

That the NCLC adopted violent and disruptive tactics seems to me indisputable. Comparing them to Fascists seems to me to be rather POV, though.

I have removed that. Weed Harper 05:59, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Why do you feel that police arrests are the only relevant documentation here? Martin 21:07, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Because they have more weight than hearsay. I don't think that anyone will dispute the fact that there are those who are looking for any means possible to discredit LaRouche; Adam has essentially admitted that of himself. Therefore, I think that there ought to be evidence a bit more substantial than someone quoted in the Village Voice, saying that a LaRouche supporter beat them up. Arrests would be an example of something more substantial, although there might be other examples as well. --Herschelkrustofsky 00:46, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Adam has added "But there are no documented incidents of CPUSA or SWP members initiating attacks on NCLC members. According to LaRouche supporters, the FBI sent the NCLC a list of CPUSA members and their home addresses in the hope that the NCLC would attack these individuals." What LaRouche supporter said that? And there is no documented incident of either side starting it -- it's "he said, she said." Weed Harper 14:17, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Operation Mop-Up Documentation

Herschell asked for documentation re Operation Mop-Up:

Nat Hentoff, Of Thugs and Liars, the Village Voice, 1/24/74, p. 8.

""based on more than 30 interviews…"

"A series of beatings were taking place on the streets, in left-wing party offices, and on college campuses. The perpetrators were members of the National Caucus of Labor Committees. "

"To cite only some of the incidents: "

"Michael Maggio, a graduate student at Temple University: hospitalized. "

"Steve Rasmussen, a student at Temple: nose broken. "

"Two members of the Young Workers Liberation League…and one member of the Communist Party, at a meeting of the NAACP in Buffalo: all hospitalized, one with a deep head cut. "

"Jesse Smith, a member of the Socialist Workers Party in New York, attacked by members of the NCLC on Broadway in lower Manhattan: hospitalized with a severely fractured arm, along with face and head gashes requiring 11 stitches."

Charles M. Young, "Mind Control, Political Violence & Sexual Warfare: Inside the NCLC," Crawdaddy, June 1976, p. 48-56.

"Incidents are too numerous to mention, but among the choicer ones were disruption of a Martin Luther King Coalition meeting in Buffalo where they beat a women who was seven months pregnant; a riot at Columbia where about 60 NCLCers stormed a stage during a mayoral debate in a failed attempt to assault the CP candidate, and an attack on an SWP meeting in Detroit where they beat a paraplegic with clubs."

According to the Chronology of Labor Committee Attacks, issued by New York Committee to Stop Terrorist Attacks, 1973, after the attack at Columbia, LaRouche's New Solidarity, (4/3-5/5, 1973) wrote:

"The clown show is over. The NCLC warns the SWP and its comrades-in-hysteria: when you did all the fighting for the CP at the Mayoral forum, we held back - we gave you a mild warning, though several of your members were bloodied and broken. But should you repeat as goons for the CP, we will put all of you in the hospital: we will deal with you as we are dealing with the CP."

AndyL 00:16, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

thanks for the references andy, thats great. They arn't exactly from impartial sources tho, are they? Sam [Spade] 00:36, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Nat Hentoff hardly seems disreputable. john k 01:28, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The last source may not be impartial but I don't see how you can doubt the first two. AndyL 01:34, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The Village Voice?? Thats the kind paper I'd try reading for laughs, and end up schredding in disgust ;) Sam [Spade] 01:41, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Is the Washington Post a better source? Ideological Odyssey:From Old Left to Far Right

In April 1973, LaRouche ordered members to attack members of the Communist Party (CPUSA) and others in a plan called "Operation Mop-up," according to ex-members and published reports.

The group's newspaper, New Solidarity, reported then that "the NCLC has launched 'Operation Mop-up,' which will bury the Nixon-allied Communist Party in six to eight weeks." The article said the group would enter Communist meetings to accomplish this. "We destroy the CP," it went on, "because it is an absolutely necessary step to ensure that the working class in the USA and Western Europe is prepared with competent leadership . . . ."

In the following months, there were about 40 fights at gatherings of Communists and others, according to former associates of LaRouche and published reports. Many people were injured, and some LaRouche supporters were arrested, but there apparently were no convictions.

"Mobile squads of helmeted, club-wielding goons invaded bookstores and offices of the CPUSA, Socialist Workers Party and Peking-line groups, attacking their members there and on the street," said the study by journalist Rees.

Former members said some attacks were in retaliation for assaults by Communists, and others were unprovoked. LaRouche said in an interview that his supporters fought only when attacked.

At the time, LaRouche berated his followers for not being tough enough and criticized those who tried to avoid participating in the fights, according to ex-members and persons knowledgeable about the group.

"People would be called on the carpet to explain themselves," said one former member. "They were told, 'If you thought this was bad, wait until the revolution, when people would be carrying guns.' "

"There was a tremendous emphasis on being psychologically ruthless: 'Can you guys really take it?' " another said. "Mop-up" started the organization's move toward being a "security-conscious, paranoid, 24-hour-a-day thing . . . . It changed the organization psychologically."

AndyL 01:50, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I donno if it actually is better, but I like it better ;). For some reason I found it hard to believe this seemingly harmless old weirdo would be out beating the heck out of pregnant ladies and cripples, but thats plenty of references to say he is (or is in favor of it, or whatever). Good job, I love citations :) Sam [Spade] 01:53, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Jewish deaths in the Holocaust

15. "In 1981 LaRouche said that "only" 1.5 million Jews died during World War II, and that their deaths were not the result of a deliberate campaign of extermination by the Nazis."

A complete fabrication, and, for obvious reasons, no source cited. -- Herschel

Source should be cited for this, I agree. john k 03:35, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I will check this. If I can't find a quote to verify it, I will delete it. Adam 04:03, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Source found

(added to article: In 1978 LaRouche described the Holocaust as mostly "mythical," and his German second wife, Helga Zepp-LaRouche, dismissed it as a "swindle." These references are sourced in Dennis King's book Lyndon LaRouche and the New American Fascism. In 1981 LaRouche said that "only" 1.5 million Jews died during World War II, and that their deaths were not the result of a deliberate campaign of extermination by the Nazis. This statement is also sourced by Dennis King. In January 1981 LaRouche's New Solidarity International Press Service issued a statement titled "LaRouche Reaffirms '1.5 millions' Analysis")

Is Dennis King's book "Lyndon LaRouche and the New American Fascism" the only source for the holocaust denial charges? Does LaRouche admit to having made those statements? If it is, or if he does not, we should change the emphasis regarding them. Sam [Spade] 16:45, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Adam did not volunteer the fact that he drew his entire article from the King book. He admitted it when I called him on it. And how did I know? Because the King book is indeed the sole published source for some of the fabulous inventions that Adam now seeks to foist upon the unsuspecting Wikipedia readership. --Herschelkrustofsky 01:00, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Krusty said in an earlier discussion that King gave no source for attributing that statement to LaRouche. In fact King does give a source, which I have cited, much as I dislike direct citations in encyclopaedia articles. Unless you are going to accuse King of simply inventing the source (something which would be easy to prove and well-known once proved), I think you have to accept that citation. LaRouche never "admits" anything, as is usually the case with megalomaniacs. Adam 16:54, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

what I was getting at is that these are just the sort of statements used to smear a person, and thus must be treated delicately in case there is any dubious nature to the sourcing. Sam [Spade] 17:44, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Sam: academic procedure 101: I have provided a citation for the statement from a published source. If you think the citation is bogus, the onus is now on you to demonstrate that (eg, from an independently published refutation - LaRouche denials won't suffice). Otherwise the citation stands. Adam 23:55, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Adam writes: He explicity states that "Yes, Hitler killed millions of Jews," a direct repudiation of his 1981 statement that only 1.5 million died and those not as a result of a deliberate plan of extermination. This article can be seen as a significant (if unacknowledged) retreat by LaRouche from his statements of the 1970s and 1980s. However, there is nothing here to retreat from, because there is no "1981 statement that only 1.5 million died." Adam knows it; he cannot document it; but he hopes to get away with it, crudely propagandistic as it is. And the entire article is permeated with similar fabrications. --Herschelkrustofsky 06:40, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

He notes a LaRouchite source for that claim. It is up to you to discredit the citation, I should think. john k 06:42, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

--Herschelkrustofsky 06:55, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC) Look again -- he notes Dennis King, alleging the existence of a LaRouchite source. I would be shocked to learn that either of you had ever read something by LaRouche; Adam's assertion that he has difficulty understanding LaRouche is credible, but I suspect that there is simply a passage in Dennis King where it says "LaRouche is difficult to understand." And, we've been over this before:

6. "In 1980 LaRouche said that only 1.5 million Jews had died in World War II, not the generally accepted 6 million." A complete fabrication, and, for obvious reasons, no source cited.

Source should be cited for this, I agree. john k 03:35, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I will check this. If I can't find a quote to verify it, I will delete it. Adam 04:03, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I did check it, and found that King had in fact cited a source, contrary to Krusty's assertion that he had not. The source is a LaRouche press release, as noted in the article. If anyone wants to allege that the citation is bogus, it is up to them to prove it. Adam 07:20, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The question of sources

Let's be clear what we're talking about here. The quote from King's book is: "A few more NCLC members protested when LaRouche announced that only one and a half million Jews, not six million, were killed in the Holocaust. Contemptuously ignoring his followers' complaints, he issued a press release reaffirming the 1.5 million figure." (Lyndon LaRouche, page 43).

King's referencing for this is: "ONLY ONE A HALF MILLION KILLED IN HOLOVCAUST: LHL [Lyndon H LaRouche], "New Pamphlet to Document Cult Origins of Zionism"; "LaRouche Reaffirms '1.5 millions' Analysis," NSIPS [New Solidarity International Press Service] news release, Jan. 17, 1981." (Lyndon LaRouche, page 382)

(In an earlier note, King cites the article "New Pamphlet to Document Cult Origins of Zionism" as being from "New Solidarity, Dec. 8, 1978.")

So, King provides two specific citations for his statement about what LaRouche said. This was in a book published by a reputable publisher (Doubleday), 15 years ago.

Krusty, however, says the reference is "a complete fabrication" and later that "there is no "1981 statement that only 1.5 million died."" Krusty's contention therefore is not just that King is biased or unfair or unreliable, but that the documents King cites never existed, that King actually forged these citations.

Does Krusty seriously think that if King had forged the citations in such a hotly contested book this would not have become immediately known and widely publicised? It's not as if this is a difficult thing to check. There must be many archives of LaRouche literature in the US. Either the 1978 article and the 1981 press release King cites exist, or they don't.

It were difficult to debate whether King forged a document, because he doesn't present one. He just says that he heard one exists. --Herschelkrustofsky 14:11, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

A Google search suggests that King has never been accused of forgery, not even at LaRouche websites. Can Krusty provide evidence of such an accusation being made? If not, can he explain why no-one appears to have mentioned this forgery in the 15 years that the book has been circulating and the LaRouche organisation has been working to discredit it? (The existence of an accusation, of course, would not prove the allegation, but it would be a start.)

It is incumbent on Krusty to make a clear statement on this if he wants anything he says in this debate to be taken seriously. The question to be answered is: Does Krusty allege that King forged the citations in his book? If so, what is his evidence for this proposition? Adam 10:07, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

LaRouche comments extensively on King's habitual lying in this statement: "The Tale of the Hippopotamus, and there is a discussion of King's, shall we say, unique role in the annals of LaRouche slanderers, here: The John Train Salon.

I do not own a copy of King's book, and I do not recall whether the precise formulation that Adam is using is King's, or whether Adam is putting a bit of spin on King's formulation. I recall reading a copy of LaRouche's Campaigner magazine in 1978, entitled "Zionism is not Judaism", which asserted that the majority of Jews who were killed under the Nazi regime were worked to death in slave labor camps like Auschwitz, rather than simply exterminated out of hand, as happened after the notorious Wahnsee conference. I presume that this is the oblique reference in Adam's article "that their deaths were not the result of a deliberate campaign of extermination by the Nazis", which formulation may be a deliberately transmogrified re-write of the assertion in Campaigner.

Answer the question!

No-one can or should believe anything Krusty says on any subject until he answers the questions put to him four or five times now. These are: Does he or does he not allege that Dennis King forged the two citations about LaRouche's comments on the Holocaust in 1978 and 1981? If so, what is his evidence? Unless he either substantiates this allegation, or retracts it, I am entitled to assume that everything Krusty says is untrue. Adam 07:22, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The Holocaust allegations are just that, allegations; Dennis King provides no quotes, and I'm certain that he would if he could. I can only respond to allegations by a counter-assertion that they are false, and that Dennis King's opinion is not credible. Adam considers it to be a legitimate tactic to assert that there are no "academic authorities" in the English-speaking world (I qualify that, because LaRouche is accorded full respect in other parts of the world, such as at the Russian Academy of Sciences and the Zayed Centre. Adam may rail against both institutions, but they are nonetheless institutions) that vouch for LaRouche, so I think that it is fair to add that the same is true for Dennis King. Outside of his sponsors (see above), no one recognizes King as anything other than a piece of sleazy wreckage from the drug culture. --Herschelkrustofsky 12:12, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

All King is doing is asserting that documents exist, and asking us to accept his characterizations of what they say. And I am certainly entitled to raise the issue of King's credibility. Adam has been hyperventilating for 2 weeks about LaRouche's. --Herschelkrustofsky 20:53, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The Unanswered Questions

Does Krusty allege that Dennis King forged the two citations about LaRouche's comments on the Holocaust in 1978 and 1981, or does he not? If so, what is his evidence? We are all still waiting for the answer to this simple question.

It were difficult to discuss whether King forged anything, because he neither produces, nor quotes, any such document. As I have pointed out before, in a dozen or so answers to your posts, the "citations" in your article amount to the following: a statement from anonymous sources characterizing LaRouche's views at the time; an assertion by King that a press release exists, which King does not quote, but rather offers his own characterization; and a reference to an (also not quoted) article, which sounds like a distortion of an editorial I recall in the 1978 "Zionism is not Judaism" issue of the Campaigner. This is a full and complete answer to your questions. You may pretend it is not, if you like. You may also continue to insist that you are entitled to set the ground rules for this debate, which you are not. --Herschelkrustofsky 14:26, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Still not satisfied

Provide a quote, or delete. -- Herschel

He provided a reference to New Solidarity. It is up to you to prove that reference to be false. john k 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I don't think so. There is no specific reference, no quote, so it winds up being a characterization. To put the burden of proof for these kinds of scurrilous charges on LaRouche -- "Prove that you have stopped beating your wife" -- is unreasonable.--Herschelkrustofsky 20:15, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

In January 1981 LaRouche's New Solidarity International Press Service issued a statement titled "LaRouche Reaffirms '1.5 millions' Analysis"

That's a quote from Dennis King, not LaRouche. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"In 1978 LaRouche described the Holocaust as mostly "mythical," and his German second wife, Helga Zepp-LaRouche, dismissed it as a "swindle." These references are sourced in Dennis King's book Lyndon LaRouche and the New American Fascism."

They are not "sourced" unless quoted; if King had direct quotes, I am quite certain he would have included them, instead of asking us to accept his characterizations. -- Herschel

perhaps we should cite King as the source ie "Dennis King claims that...."

"He explicity states that "Yes, Hitler killed millions of Jews," a direct repudiation of his 1981 statement that only 1.5 million died and those not as a result of a deliberate plan of extermination."

Fallacy of composition; LaRouche cannot "directly repudiate" something that he did not say. -- Herschel

In January 1981 LaRouche's New Solidarity International Press Service issued a statement titled "LaRouche Reaffirms '1.5 millions' Analysis"

Does all your "research" consist of simply cribbing from King and Berlet? --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Adam has found a quotation which appears to be legitimate. I have no objection to using it in the article, in place of the article's present characterizaton that "LaRouche also said that "only" 1.5 million Jews died during World War II, and that their deaths were not the result of a deliberate campaign of extermination by the Nazis." The latter part of the sentence is an incorrect inference by Adam/Dennis King; LaRouche has made clear that there was a deliberate campaign of extermination by means of slave labor and starvation, as distinct from extermination by summary executions. It should also be noted that LaRouche has apparently repudiated significant parts of these remarks. Here is the quote:

It is argued that the culmination of the persecution of the Jews in the Nazi holocaust proves that Zionism is so eessential to "Jewish survival" that any anti-Zionist is therefore not only an anti-Semite, but that any sort of criminal action is excusable against anti-Zionists in memory of the mythical "six million Jewish victims" of the Nazi "holocaust."

This is worse than sophistry. It is a lie. True, about a million and a half Jews did die as a result of the Nazi policy of labor-intensive "appropriate technology" for the employment of "inferior races," a small fraction of the tens of million of others - especially Slavs - who were murdered in the same way Jewish refugee Felix Rohaytin proposes today. Even on a relative scale, what the Nazis did to Jewish victims was mild compared with the virtual extermination of gypsies and the butchery of Communists.