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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Mdwh (talk | contribs) at 10:53, 20 May 2006 (→At least 7 distinct AVMs?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Explained better the concept of Amiga VM by editing the article

See my modifications. It is explained better the concept of Amiga Virtual Machine. I also inserted two main Amiga VM, Amithlon and A-Box provided by MorphOS. Hope it could of some help to clarify all topic and let this article to be kept. Sure then all the remaining part of the article that I marked as "stub" strongly needs to be revisited and rewritten.

Amiga Anywhere paragraph should be splitted into a new article, and it should be here only a reference voice of it (only the major infos of it), as it is only a different example of one of the various Amiga VM. --Raffaele Megabyte 10:59, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merge/split and redirect/delete

  • "AVM" and "Amiga Virtual Machine" (though most instances of the capitals have now been lowercased) are unattested terms, i.e. neologism, i.e. - among other things - original research. Amiga Inc. never called Amiga Anywhere an "AVM", nor did the WinUAE or WinFellow creators term their emulators "AVM"s, nor did the community do so (try a search for "amiga virtual machine", with quotes, on Google).
  • While Amiga Anywhere and Amiga emulators have in common the fact of being somehow Amiga-related, keeping them "under the same roof" is unjustified, as they're completely different subjects, which are simply under the same brand name. There is an Amiga emulation article, that should probably be expanded, where one can write about Amiga (Motorola 680x0, "classic", and all of that) emulation; and there should be a separate Amiga Anywhere article, as well.
  • Detailed information about the Motorola 68000 (or more broadly, Motorola 680x0) instruction set belong to the respective article(s).
  • This whole article implies some sort of agenda to equate various Amiga-related topics to the Java virtual machine, for some reason that escapes me. It's impregnated with some very peculiar POV, and I find it is in effect, for all intents and purposes, a POV fork of Amiga emulation.
  • I completely disagree about the idea that Amiga emulation should be kept for gaming-related information while Amiga virtual machine should contain "serious" stuff. This would be a totally arbitrary and baseless distinction; besides, Amiga emulation isn't nearly as big as to need splitting.
  • Obviously, some editors are trying to promote the term "AVM" on its own merit, while this term, as said, is a neologism (worse than that - it just doesn't exist outside Wikipedia). See AVM, which has been edited to include Amiga virtual machine among its links (later removed by me). There's some WP:POINT and/or WP:NOR here (i.e. agenda).

LjL 18:07, 18 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with all of the above. To expand on your point "Obviously, some editors are trying to promote...", I also removed the following bizarre statement from Team Chaos: "Eventually with the advent of modern AVMs in the late 1990s these games were ported to all major computing platforms...", and on Total Chaos, the platform was listed not just as Amiga, but also Amiga virtual machine. I mean, are we going to change every single reference of "Amiga" to "Amiga or a machine with an AVM"?! Mdwh 23:00, 18 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Furthermore, the article has now been created on the Italian Wikipedia as well, and its entry added to the disambiguation page for AVM. I'm really going to virtually bang my head onto a virtual wall. Honestly, I feel very strongly that there's some weird agenda/propaganda (i.e. strong POVness) going on, but I don't quite understand what it is. Pro-Amiga? Anti-Amiga? Anti-Java? Pro-virtual-machines? Just plain weirdness? LjL 23:20, 18 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Raffaele Megabyte's comments on this article's AFD page

There where some requests days ago to delete this article.

  • Keep I'll show you why This invoice in wikipedia should be to stay.

Amiga EMULATION = a program to emulate the Amiga by emulating the response to code of 68000 CPU by Motorola AND the behaviour of Chipset of Amiga.

Example: Original UAE (which has no JIT Virtual machine at all, while WinUAE has a Motorola 68000 Just In Time Virtual machine built in). It emulates code 68000, and emulates also Paula, Agnus and Denise chips (Graphic chip, Sound chip, Memory and I/O chip).

And from opposite:

Amiga VIRTUAL MACHINE = a base of abstraction layers capable to run programs created to accomplish Amiga standards and created with Amiga SDK to run then on a series of different hardware machines.

Also as stand-alone commercial product (so it will deserve a voice of its own).

Amiga VIRTUAL MACHINE = commercial product such as Amiga Anywhere.

Es.: It is a sort of virtual machine to provide an ABSTRACTION LAYER running on top of TAO/ELATE INTENT OS. It is not in any way connected to Amiga products, but it is capable to run with very low hardware resources, and it provides an universal abstraction layer of its own, running programs created with Amiga SDK giving them the opportunity to run with same aspect, despite of the platform that hosts it. This gives Amiga Anywhere a close resemblance as Java, without the problem to write from scratch any VM on any different platforms as it happens with Java.

Also as another way to implement such a virtual machine:

Amiga VIRTUAL MACHINE = an emulation of Amiga API to let run Amiga programs in an environment which is different from that of origin without providing standard emulation of all hardware.

Example: Trance Virtual Machine running on MorphOS which is a completely different OS, and it is based on PPC systems and on a Quark Microkernel different from standard Amiga Kernel (Exec). Trance is a bonus program deep running into MorphOS core, and it is capable to interpretate on the fly programs of Classic (old) Amigas which required old Motorola 68000 CPU, but it DOES NOT emulate the original chipset of Amiga, so it COULD NOT be considered an emulator (at least it is a very structured Amiga API emulator which hosts also a 68000 code emulator). But it is really a Virtual Machine because it provides Amiga programs an entire SANDBOX, and a sort of abstraction layer which allows Amiga Programs to make use of the hardware of Pegasos II line of computer on which MorphOS is the native standard OS.

Also

Amiga VIRTUAL MACHINE = Petunia Virtual Machine present into AmigaOS 4.0 as "API emulator" and barely similar in behaviour as Trance into MorphOS. As its opponent Trance, it is also capable to run on the fly Classic Amiga software.

Also

Amiga VIRTUAL MACHINE = the core of Amithlon emulator. Amithlon it is a very amazing emulator. It provides an abstraction layer capable to run Amiga related programs thru standard PC hardware, allowing the original Amiga OS and its programs to use standard graphic cards of PC, standard audio, standard LAN ports, etc. It does not run on top of other OSes, such as Windows or Linux, but it uses Linux code to boot and Linux also provides a sort of environment which is reckognized as a PC OS by the hardware, but it runs no Linux OS.

So we have at least 4 different products, and 3 different ideas of what does it means an Amiga virtual machines all built in different ways: Amithlon, Amiga DE/Amiga Anywhere, Petunia, and Trance which accomplish to create an ENTIRE FAMILY of Amiga Virtual Machines.

Amithlon creates an environment in which an Amiga standard OS can run on standard PC hardware. It provides the feature to run standard Amiga programs built for M68000 and mainly which could have full access to PC peripeherals as it could be Amiga hardware and Amiga peripherals.

Amiga Anywhere it is an abstracion layer for Amiga to run completely new Amiga programs and that is built from the beginning as standard Amiga software. As Java it runs universally on any compatible hardware situation.

Trance and Petunia are abstraction layers on which to run standard Amiga API and also are capable to run code for 68000, interpreting it on the fly. Trance also provides a sandbox in which all Amiga environment it is closed and stay separate from the rest of the MorphOS OS.

This is why the invoice was created. This is absolutely the reason that requires such an invoice to keep stay into Wikipedia. This is why I ask moderators to not consider any past, any present an any further request to delete it.

With respect,

--Raffaele Megabyte 22:26, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep No way in hell should this subject matter be gerrymandered into the Amiga Emulation article which states that is only about one specific style Amiga Virtual Machine. Link to other articles, don't try to mash them all together into one gigantic 200K article.--70.110.80.15 07:32, 18 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
But the only other type of Amiga virtual machine would go into a new article, Amiga Anywhere, so that solves that problem. Why should we have one article covering two entirely different pieces of software? At best, this should be a disambiguation page which links to the other articles. Mdwh 11:30, 18 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

At least 7 distinct AVMs?

70.110.80.15 claimed there are "at least 7 distinct AVMs", in order to justify saying "any other Amiga Virtual Machine" - can you name them, please? Are we talking emulators, or things like Amiga Anywhere? Mdwh 11:35, 18 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

@Mdwh: Had you bothered to actually read the article and this talk page you would have seen several AVMs listed (no I am not going to write out amiga virtual machine every time). Lets see: UAE, WinUAE, E-UAE, AIAB, AmigaForever are 5 distinct AVMs that emulate classic Amiga machines. Then there is Trance, Petunia, AmigaAnywhere, Amithlon, AmiKit, AmigaSYS, AROS, AmigaXL are 8 distinct AVMs which do not emulate classic Amiga machines. There are others! There are at least 13 different AVMs in this paragraph. This is not an all-inclusive list. There are others. I am just writing a quick list from reading the article, clicking on the links and so forth.

I would like to make the motion that somebody remove all Mdwh edits to this article. I looked at the history and see that he is vandalizing the article and making rabid claims such as "There are only 3 AVMs" when he obviously knows of more than 3 since more than 3 were listed in the original article and links were provided.

Please stop oversimplifying Amiga virtual machines.--68.238.104.248 09:29, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment to User:68.238.104.248

No my dear friend. You are completely wrong. You listed togheter totally different products.

UAE = first emulator of Amiga 500 model, and then A 1200 and 4000 also.

WinUAE = emulator with Jit machine for Motorola 68000

E-UAE = emulator running on Amiga Classic, PPC Amigas, Apple PPC, Unix/Linux platforms with PPC.

AIAB (Amiga in a Box) = preinstalled environment to activate 24 bit modes, new GUIs, new libraries, 16bit sound when using WIN-UAE

AmigaForever = commercial product providing WinUAE and other emulators along with multi front-end explorers for both Amiga and PC environments. It provides also licensed OSes and Firmware, and now it is aimed to became multi-platform.

Trance = it is the 68000 code interpreter (68000 emulator?) embedded into A-BOX Virtual Machine on MorphOS

ABOX = Virtual Machine of MorphOS. It keeps a sandbox enviroment to keep the Amiga side of MorphOS alone, and dialogue with the rest of the systems thru its abstraction layers. It has amiga API 3.1 compatibility, and hosts a 68000 code interpreter on the fly JIT named Trance.

Petunia = Amiga Virtual Machine of AmigaOS 4.0. Should inform me more on about how it works.

AmigaAnywhere = Amiga Virtual machine by Amiga Inc. based on Tao/Elate Intent OS and an Amiga SDK running on a so called Amiga Virtual Processor

Amithlon = Amiga Virtual Machine by Haage & Partners, written from Bernd Meyer who is also the author of JIT machine of WinUAE. It uses minimal reduced Linux kernel to boot from a live CD, reckognize the hardware, then it creates a series of Abstraction Layers which hosts AmigaOS and Amiga Like programs by make them believe they aare hosted on a complete new machine.

AmiKit = same as AIAB a series of preinstalled enviroments for WinUAE to activate 24 bit modes, improved GUIs, 16 bit audio.

AmigaSYS = same as AIAB

AROS = a complete new ubiquitous Operating System

It could run as:

1) standalone on PC hardware, but in this form it is an Amiga X86 based OS.

2) Hosted by Linux enviroment

3) Runs from Live CD which autoboots using minimal reduced Linux Kernel to boot and reckognize the hardware. Then it creates Abstraction Layers to host and dialogue between Linux kernel who drives the hardware and its own AROS environment which is standalone. In this form sure it has its own Virtual Machine System but it is completely new and not related with any Amiga VM.

Sure AROS it is an Amiga Like OS, sharing same kernel mechanism, directory structure, behaviour, and even some filesystems, but it is a completely different product.

Its Virtual machine it is not an Amiga Virtual Machine, just for the fact it hosts its own software and environment and it is capable to run standard Amiga software (68000 or PPC) only thru portings of existings standard emulators.

AmigaXL = AmigaOSXL is the real name if I remember well.

I have not many infos about it. Should check and dig the internet to search for relevant infos. Actually I don't know if it is an Amiga Emulator, or an hosted Amiga environment, a preinstalled system like AIAB or whatever else.

Ciao,

--Raffaele Megabyte 15:47, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Despite our differences in how we voted, I do agree with you that an article about "virtual machines" should focus on the idea of emulating code transparentely in a host OS, rather than just simple emulators. The big problem with this article is trying to pass off emulators as "Amiga virtual machines", which is (a) not a term used to describe them, (b) duplicating material in the Amiga emulation article, and (c) means we now have people writing "runs on Amigas or machines running an Amiga Virtual Machine" in place of "runs on Amigas" (eg, see Total Chaos) which is at best redundant, and at worst misleading.
So I'm removing the emulation section - please feel free anyone to introduce material there into the Amiga emulation or Motorola 68000 - instead, this article should focus on the concepts which you describe.
(As an aside, note that UAE, E-UAE, WinUAE are all variations of the same emulator. AFAIK, AmigaXL is an emulator based on UAE, which runs on QNX, but is set up to boot straight into the emulator I think. Also I believe that the emulation in Amithlon was based on WinUAE.) Mdwh 10:53, 20 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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