Talk:Micronation
The link at http://www.talossa.com/ doesn't work. -- Zoe
- It may be because of the punctuation in the article. I went to talossa.net and got this message
- Talossa.com has suffered a server crash, and has just moved to a new hosting company. Please stay tuned for a new Talossa.com in a few weeks. In the meantime, you should visit the links to the right.
- I assume that they are working on fixing their problems Eclecticology
http://groups.msn.com/FifthWorld/yourwebpage.msnw
shows that the Fifth World even considers itself to be a micronational group-despite it's rantings of late about the neotribal revolution of the webian peoples. Vera Cruz
The link above leads to the 14 Commandaments. If that page proves anything at all Ms. Vera Cruz, it is just how different Fifthworlders are from micronationals. Why do you think most micronationals can't stand us?
The micronational world has never been about anything recorded in the 14 Commandments. They are all about the pseudo-science of Darwinism (the Navajo know man comes from the "Sky People", better known as the "Elohim" in the Old Testament); about the immorality of states that have no Higher Authority to answer to, God Almighty included; and about economic enslavement through the false economic system called Capitalism, which I would never teach at Bucksfan University, because it is an intellectually inferior product, and the only folks that defend the system are rich folks who don't like working for a living! How you associate all that "civilised" crap with the Fifth World is simply beyond my ability to comprehend. That stuff is quite alien to me, and Fifthworlders in general.
The "rantings" about neotribal revolution are not rantings at all. I am both the Father of the Fifth World as a political concept (my homage to the Navajo and their spiritual Fifth World), as well as the Father of the concept called "tribalisation". What do you think the latter is about? Please read the following article, "Civilisation Verses Tribalisation", if you are still skeptical.
I wrote that article at least a year ago, so the Fifth World is a lot more than a ranting. These ideas have been perculating for years, and even the Deputy Prime Minister of Italy has been exposed to them! We are as FOR REAL as it gets. In fact, we are just as REAL as Native American folks!
As for the origins of the words "Fifth World", and the associated philosophical views, these came from the words "Fourth World", which is what I called old nations like Tibet without a State. I believe that the reason why I used them, and I had no idea back then of the Native American cultural associations with the same term, is because the Native Webian "Fifth World", and the Native American "Fifth World", are actually THE SAME THING, and our movement may be the very fulfillment of Native American prophesies!
Native Americans too have been waiting - in vain for the most part - for a kind of Messiah, and when they saw Columbus, many Native Americans thought they had seen their version of the Messiah.
To this date they are still waiting for a "Strange Man" to show up, and transform the world into a much better and more decent place. But they are not waiting for a Native American, Ms. Vera Cruz, but a "Very Strange White Man"! Paradoxically, it will be a White Man who will liberate Native Americans from there current state of social and economic enslavement, caused by White Men not related to the Very Strange White Man to come. May "Ea" breathe upon you, as a Native American once said "Ea" had already done to me!
HM Cesidio Tallini
(aka "Chief White Buffalo")
Tribe of Archimedes
Nation of TTF
State of Bucksfan
The point Im trying to get across Cesidio, is that Im not disagreeing that capitalism is evil or that nation-states are nothing more than a modern form of barbaric totalitarianism.
What Im trying to explain is that we have determined that your group is a micronation. We don't understand what possible difference there is between a Fifth World Nation and a micronation. You act as if there is something "bad" about being classified as a micronation, do you despise Sealand? They are a micronation, what is so different about Atlantium? You call it an "aspiring microstate", and we argue that aspiring microstates are, in other words, micronations.
If you want to go over to the micronation page, and find something stated there that you feel does not describe Atlantium, then we will either eventually agree with you, or remove said statement from the description of micronations. However, you are using your definition of micronation, and arguing that 5W nations are not such things, we probably agree, unlike you however, we don't think micronations are merely non-existant short-lived non-entity rantings of some schizo, and thus, we don't understand why Atlantium is not a micronation.
I think sealand is an excellent example of a micronation, or, if you prefer, an "aspiring microstate". I urge you to open diplomatic relations with them. Vera Cruz
I also urge you to examine libretarian socialism and anarchism, as your 14 Commandments seem to indicate, whether you are aware of it or not, that you are part of some kind of anarchist collective.
Vera Cruz 00:57 Dec 30, 2002 (UTC)
There is a WORLD of difference between internet micronations and Fifth World nations. They are only superficially similar. When the USA says it is some New World Order, they are writing nothing but brainless propaganda. The Fifth World actually is a New World Order, because we have all rejected the Montevideo Convention. That makes us Martians not only when you compare us to micronations, but also with respect to the highly respected assassins and plutocrats of the Official World.
The Fifth World also doesn't justify its existence with historical anomalies or eccentric interpretations of laws, like internet micronations. The exercise of our limited sovereignty is quite clearly justified with some very "Kosher" documents, such as:
- the Universal Declaration of Human Rights Articles 2, 13, 15, 17, 18, and 21
- the Universal Declaration of the Rights of Peoples Articles 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 11, and 15
- the Ten Commandments (Mosaic Law)
- the 14 Commandments (Cesidian Law)
I resent being put together with a bunch of fascists that have kicked me out of any and virtually every micronational forum. They have deprived me both of my freedom of speech, and even the ability to be able to take my national links away from their forums, and I had a right to at least that much.
I don't want people to think they are dealing with another internet micronation, because TTF-Bucksfan is a real nation, one that has the respect of real politicians, and even real royal families. Those jerks of the micronational world wouldn't lift a finger to help me, so I do not wish to be associated with them. The Fifth World has broken away from the micronational world, and not just philosophically either. That is a fact no serious scholar should ignore.
And why is Sealand more "serious" than us? I have had diplomatic relations with Sealand, something no internet micronation can truthfully confess to, and don't you think I'm more capable in judging what they are?
For starters, they have no class, because they treated me, my nation, and the Fifth World the same way. Even the Brits call them high sea pirates, and with some justification in my view.
Second, they are not an independent state as they claim to be, but a de facto dependency of the British Empire. We are actually more independent than Sealand can ever dream to be!
Third, they are a micronation, and just as arrogant as any micronation I have had anything to do with. Fifth World nations are much more modest than that. They do control their jurisdiction, like any real state, but I control my Internet jurisdiction just as well, so why are they more powerful or "real" than TTF-Bucksfan?
We have connections to real VIPs. They don't. We have just started 2 Top-Level Domains of ".bucksfan" and ".bucrafan" (stay tuned for even more earthshaking news to come!), and will soon have total control of them. They don't have anything even close to that, even though they're a data haven!
We host, provide DNS services, and have incorporated real African organisations like the Congolese Diabetics Association on our webspace, and even provide them with limited banking services. Sealand has yet to incorporate a single foreign corporation or legal entity on its real space, with the exception of HavenCo, and I may be wrong in my estimate that they have been incorporated or registered within Sealand's own legal structure.
We have a university like Bucksfan University, multilinguistic libraries, news agencies, goverment organisations like the Fifth World Council, and a real and independent culture, independent of the United States of America in every way. Sealand, outside of its own government corporation, has yet to create a single institution worthy of any note, and their culture is just libertarian British, thats all.
Our webspace is actually already more complex than the Vatican's, and over 100 people would want to live on this space if it were only possible (on 24 December 2002 we did get a record 1982 visits after all!). Sealand has a bunker nobody wants to live on, and their webspace is a fairly unimpressive website, courtesy of HavenCo.
So whose nation and State is more real?
With regard to Atlantium, and TorHavn, we consider them a little more serious than your run-of-the-mill internet micronation, but I read nowhere on either's website that they have rejected the Montevideo Convention, the United Nations, or any of the traditional authorities and their claims to legitimacy. The real Fifth World actually doesn't recognise these authorities, believe it or not, and we can even tell you why, while Atlantium and TorHavn do, and even admire them (do I have to say more?). In addition to that, Atlantium describes itself as a microstate, not a micronation, since even they don't wish to be associated with the "Purple Bunny" variety of nations (most micronations on the Internet aren't even run by people 18 and older, in case you didn't know).
By the way, my girlfriend Ilona Staller is a libertarian, I'm not. Cesidianism as a political philosophy (and economic, and religious philosophy) is only vaguely libertarian, but actually quite different, just as the Fifth World is only vaguely micronational, but already far beyond the purpose of micronations, Sealand, and even of the United States of America.
We are the real bologna. They are only phoney boloney, as the Boar's Head advert so humourously goes.
HM Cesidio Tallini
(aka "Chief White Buffalo")
Tribe of Archimedes
Nation of TTF
State of Bucksfan
I've added the above link back to the article, since it gives us a good idea of what these people are about. I introduced the heading "cybernations" and it didn't bother me when somebody changed it to "Fifth World nations". I was only reacting to the complete removal of the two links from the fantasy nations list. Eclecticology 13:23 Dec 27, 2002 (UTC)
We need eventually to merge micronation with micronationalism, and to explain the varying levels of seriousness involved: those behind Sealand are in earnest at least for the business benefits, for some it's a role-playing game, for others it's a sort of practical joke, and others have lost track of reality completely. The Anome 09:58 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)
I have now done so. The Anome
As a longtime observer of the internet "micronations" hobby I have had the opportunity to review Mr Cesidio Tallini's postings in various online discussion forums. Given the inordinate amount of page-space that Mr Tallini's comments occupy now occupy in Wikipedia I wish to post the following, which I hope will provide some perspective:
1. The term "Fifth World" was appropriated or invented approximately a year ago by Mr Cesidio Tallini, a US resident, to describe a collection of ideas that he believes represent a new way of looking at the world, but which in reality are of no substance whatsoever. Mr Tallini has on many occasions attempted and failed utterly to define exactly what the "Fifth World" is supposed to be. So far all that has resulted from these efforts is a list of country "types" (ie first world, second world, third world etc), with their supposedly "Matching" countries. For example, Tibet is, apparently, a "Fourth World" nation.
2. The "Fifth World" consists entirely of a long list of registered domain names and group of interlinked websites, all owned and managed by Mr Cesidio Tallini, containing obscure, severely gramatically challenged content on that is of no conceivable value to any person other than their author.
3. The "Fifth World" is not a "micronation"; it is not a country; it is not a nation; it is not an organization; it is not a "new world order"; it is not a cult or religion; it does not represent a new way of thinking or looking at reality; it is not a philosophy of life; it most certainly is not a "group"; it is a babble of complete and utter nonsense emanating entirely from the mind of one person - Mr Cesidio Tallini.
4. Mr Tallini's "group" (ie himself) did not at any stage have "relations" with Sealand. Mr Tallini received a polite form letter *rejecting* his "diplomatic overtures". Mr Tallini chose to interpret this as "recognition". Within the past month Mr Tallini has issued a public email communication claiming that he has been victimized in some obscure manner by Sealand, and that as a result the "Fifth World" no longer "recognizes" Sealand. Mr Tallini has a history of self-induced vendettas of this nature, and in all cases claims to be the "victim".
5. Mr Tallini probably *has* received communications from the House of Savoy and former Italian politicians and porn stars addressing him by his self-declared titles, or some variation thereof. As these documents have never been produced, independent verification has not been possible, however it is more than likely that the communications in question are likely to consist, again, of polite letters of rejection. This is standard practise for most busy organizations and officials, however Mr Tallini has made an art of clutching at straws, and deliberately chooses to see rejection as some sort of personal validation on the flimsy premise that a reply from a person of note - *any* reply - constitutes "recognition".
6. Mr Tallini has at various stages claimed to be a "god", a "king", "one of history's most original thinkers" and made various other equally preposterous declarations in various public communications and discussions over the past year. In claiming to be some sort of Navajo messiah, he has now taken these lunatic assertions to jaw-droppingly bizarre new heights. The reality is that Mr Tallini was probably completely unaware of the historic Navajo usage of the term "Fifth World" until it was pointed out to him on Wikipedia several days ago. In his usual manner he has since used this knowledge as a further "justification" for his beliefs.
Overall, on all the available evidence, I believe Mr Tallini to be an individual of diminished mental capacity, and his comments should therefore be viewed in this context.