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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Nagromtpc (talk | contribs) at 10:10, 23 May 2006. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Archived discussions (latest first): /Archive 8 /Archive 7 /Archive 6 /Archive 5 /Archive 4 /Archive 3 /Archive 2 /Archive 1 Template:TrollWarning

Talk:Kosovo: Old resolved discussions are archived at Talk:Kosovo/Archive 1, Talk:Kosovo/Archive 2, Talk:Kosovo/Archive 3, Talk:Kosovo/Archive 4, Talk:Kosovo/Archive 5, Talk:Kosovo/Archive 6, and Talk:Kosovo/Archive 7


This becoming STUPID! [sic]

I added list of districts and cities here with the purpose to IMPROVE article, not to start new revert war. The names are written in both, Albanian and Serbian, and the name order is that used by UNMIK. So, if somebody see problem with that, he should discuss that problem here. It must be noted that state of Serbia recognized UNMIK and accepted civil UNMIK rule over Kosovo, thus, I do not see reason for revert war here. Even when Milošević was in power Albanian was an official language in Kosovo. PANONIAN (talk) 03:06, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you, about the revert war part, Panonian. People should learn to discuss more here. AS of the official language in Kosovo, I must remind you that during Milosevic everything was in Cyrillic alphabet in Kosovo, including ID's, labels on shops, buses, administration, everything. But that is a black part of the history, not worth comparing to. Regards, Ilir pz 11:15, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
I was wondering about one thing today. What do you guys/girls think will happen with 1244 resolution, once (eventually) Montenegro gets recognized? Does it make sense to say that "now Serbia takes over what is left from Former Yugoslavia and the responsibilities of that resolution"? Seems like we might have to do major updating on those parts soon, where Serbia and Montenegro is mentioned as a successor of FRY, and Kosovo a de-jure part of it. Very curious how this evolves. Not that the Montenegro's independence affects Kosovo'spath to independence, but anyways it would be welcome. Ilir pz 11:20, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

It will not affect it in any sense as Kosovo is recognised as a province of Serbia in S&M constitution. Regards, --Asterion talk to me 12:21, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Let us wait and see :) So next will be "Serbia is a successor of FRY"? after Montengro is gone from that federation?? This resolution is getting funnier and funnier. Ilir pz 12:22, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
No, that is not the point. S&M is the same as FRY. Kosovo is not a province of S&M but a province of Serbia anyway. Regards, --Asterion talk to me 14:06, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
I understand your point. As of now Kosovo is a territory under UN administration, whose status is still not defined anyways. That resolution is for a couple of months more. Regards, Ilir pz 14:22, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
This is weird, SCG can't be the successor of FRJ. It's the successor of SFRJ (legally) - a state cannot be a successor of itself. Are youy suggesting that the Republic of Holland (declared with the Hague Manifesto of 1581) is not the successof of the United Dutch Provinces that existed there since 1576? --HolyRomanEmperor 21:27, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Let me just correct a mistake there -- FRY = SCG, but FRY (and therefore also SCG) is *not* the successor to the SFRY. SCG had to reapply for UN membership; had it been recognised as the legal successor to the SFRY, it would have simply taken its seat. —Nightstallion (?) 21:04, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Thats right. Since one month I m traing to say that. But nobody dont wont to listen-- Hipi

You are confusing Nightstallion's words. Resolution 1244 is relevant to FRY, which is the same as saying SCG. Regards, --Asterion talk to me 18:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Archiving

I have moved the old entries to /Archive 8 because the page takes too long to load. --Asterion talk to me 10:24, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, yes. You have removed my post at talk page beacose the fact I have putit in your talk page. Ther was no personal atack how you have wrotit at the comment during the deletio of the post in your talk page. This is another fact about wat I have sayed to you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:suspected sockpuppet of permanently blocked user Hipi Zhdripi|suspected sockpuppet of permanently blocked user Hipi Zhdripi]] ([[User talk:suspected sockpuppet of permanently blocked user Hipi Zhdripi#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/suspected sockpuppet of permanently blocked user Hipi Zhdripi|contribs]])

Hipi, the copyvio text was removed before I moved the page. Besides, why are you adding text unrelated to the current discussion for? Please take some time to familiarise yourself with the copyright policy of Wikipedia too. I have already explained you this a few times but you insist on trolling around with my user page. Just to let you know that a lifting of your block was being considered but given your recent behaviour, I cannot see this happening at all. It is my fault for trying to be civilised with everyone. I should know better... Asterion talk to me 13:36, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Who is saing that is a copyvio (?) text, this is citat of a work. I diden uset that in the article. I have putit als source here for beter work and beacose the user Cernagora sayt to me that HRE is not serbian nationalist but he have only the serbian source. I dont know so gut english beacose that I dont work in the articel only in discussion side. But I know hat ther are some gut wikipedians and they are going to user this surce. (I know that you are not going to be that). You have sayed that I have maked personal atak at your talk page and deletet the my kritik for your work. Witch sentens is personal attack for you? Is this your civilised way to delet the post at your talk page and saying that is personal attack? I have no interes here for personal attack with nobody. I have experienc with that. Only if you present yourself als a hardliner of wikipedia Im going to give you a hard kritik. And wat are you doing, you are usenig your better english to diskrimined my work but that is not argument. You are not objetiv and that is not fair. Perhaps I can not do to much agains that but sombody is watching that, beacose I kow that from my work in sq:wikipedia. I dont let the new or the user witch dont know well albanian to be discrimedit. Even the user dont know albanian if he have facts I going to help him. Do you know way? -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hipi Zhdripi (talk • contribs)

Well, in that case. Why don't you explain things, then? It is a copyright violation to reproduce texts from a book that is not in the public domain. By Wikipedia Fair Use policy, you are only allowed to quote sentences or short paragraphs. And yes, you have been harrassing me in my talk page with your silly comments that I am not really Spanish and that you and your friends are going to prove it. It is real sad that I had to get my talk page protected to stop your trolling. You could learn from User:Ilir pz and start to discuss things like a normal person. Goodbye. --Asterion talk to me 14:04, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, if I hert you. I have explent way I dont belevie that you are t Spanish. This is not personal attack, (this is my opinion about you and my experienc with Spanish peopel and your work here is maken my opinion, dont forget everybody who know spanish can say thate) I going to prufe that (my opinion). What is wrong with that. If you are a Spanish you dont need to be worit. I m Albanian and everybody can think what he wount, everybody can profe his opinion. -- Hipi
Well, feel free to check my Spanish wikipedia contributions if that satisfy your unhealthy curiosity. I accept your apologies. Regards, --Asterion talk to me 17:11, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

History of Kosovo

History of Kosovo In "Travels in European Turkey" (London, 1850): E. Spencer gives an account of the Illyrian Empire:

...The Illyrians founded an immense empire extending from Epirus ... to the Danube and the Black Sea and comprehending the whole of the maritime coast of Hungary to Venice and Triest, with Istria, Carnolia, Carinthia, Styria, and Friuli... History and tradition affords us many interesting details of the battles of the Illyrians with the ancient Greeks and the Romans... Napoleon was well versed in the history of these people when he flattered their national pride...(Vol. I, pp. 93-94)

As indicated by E. Spencer, the Illyrians fought, in fact, for a long time against the Romans, who eventually conquered the whole of Illyria in A.D. 9. Many Illyrian soldiers, who susbsequently served in the Roman army rose to high positions. Some became emperors and viceroys: Claudius II, Aurelian, Probus, Diocletian, Maximilian, Constantius, Valens, and Valentinian. Mention should also be made of Saint Jerome, one of the greatest scholars of his time. The Illyrians gave to Byzantium three of its greatest emperors: Constantine, who officially accepted Christianity; Justinius, who built Saint Sophia; and Justinianus, famous for his Code of Laws. The philologist Paul Kretschmer went so far as to maintain that the Illyrians actually founded Byzantium.

Proud of what they considered their heritage (see E. Spencer, Travels... I, p. 94), the South Slavs became eager to recreate ancient Illyria by forming a union among themselves.

Albania was at that time a domain of the Turkish Empire comprising four vilayets or provinces: Shkodra - which included the Dukagjini Plateau (Metohija), Monastir (presently Bitolja), Janina, and Shkup (Skopje), presently in Macedonia. This latter province was more readily called Kosova by the Turks in memory of the victory of a battle on the Plain of Kossovo, the "Campo dei Merli" of old Venetian maps. The capital of this province had at times been Priština.6

6. According to A. Boue, the "battles" that took place were not fought on the plain, but on its "plates-formes" at Gasimestan, "one and a half hours north of Pristina;" the name of Kossovo, he explained, was applied later to the Plain of Sitnica and the surrounding territory (A. Boue, op. cit., I, p. 142).

Owing to the efforts of the committee headed by A. Frasheri,7 80 delegates representing all four provinces convened at the city of Prizren, in the Vilayet of Shkup (Kosova) in June 1878, three days prior to the opening of the Congress of Berlin, whose purpose was to reconsider the decision reached by San Stefano's preliminary Peace Treaty. The assembly of these delegates was henceforth called The League of Prizren. Its task was to defend Albania's rights.

Kosova became thus for the Albanians the center of their resistance and they have ever since regarded this territory as a symbol of their struggle for independence.

7. An Albanian patriot of broad culture (1839-1894). His younger brother, Sami, wrote in Turkish as well as in Albanian. Greatly admired for his Universal Dictionary of History and Geography (a six-volume encyclopedia) and for other writings, he is considered in Turkey as one of its most prominent poets. Having fought for Albania’s rights, he spent five years in prison. The sec.ond of the three brothers, Naim, is the most popular South Albanian poet.

As soon as the Serbs occupied the ceded territories, the Albanians were asked to evacuate them. With respect to the Albanians inhabiting those areas, Mr. Gould, Consul of Great Britain in Belgrade, wrote to the Marquis of Salisbury, Secretary of the Foreign Office of Great Britain, on Nov. 26, 1878:

I hear that the Servian Government has behaved with great and unnecessary harshness, not to say cruelty, toward the Albanians in the recently ceded districts. If my information is correct, and I have every reason to believe it to be so, the peaceful and industrious inhabitants of over 100 Albanian villages in the Toplitza and Vranja Valley were ruthlessly driven forth from their homesteads by the Servians in the early part of this year. These wretched people have ever since been wandering about in a starving condition in the wild country beyond the Servian frontier. They have not been allowed to gather in their crops on their own lands, which were reaped by the Servian soldiery... I ... casually stated to his Excellency (Ristic) that these facts had come to my knowledge, and that should they be confirmed I felt certain Her Majesty's Government and the majority of the Great Powers would call the Servian Government to account, and insist upon strict justice being done to these unfortunate people, whose only crime was their belonging to an alien race and another creed...10

10. EM., Accounts and Papers (38); 1878-9; LXXIX 79, 574-575. Letter reproduced by Rizaj in op. cit. pp. 24 1-242.

As to the number of the Albanians inhabiting those territories, various statistics and extant documents give contradictory figures. According to a note of the administrative divisions dating from 1873, the district of the Sandjak of Niš had about 100 000 Albanians. As regards the number of refugees, the figures given by Prof. J. Cvijic for those who settled in Kosova is 30 000, that furnished by English documents, 100 000. According to Turkish sources, the number of the Albanians who were forced to leave the region amounted to 300 000.

On June 3, 1978, Rilindja (p.7), published a letter addressed by these miserable people (who were deprived of all means and many of whom were sick) to the European Powers requesting that at least a commission be set up to look into their serious problem.11

Leaving these helpless refugees to their sad fate, the Serbs colonized the region with astounding rapidity. Referring to the colonization of the area by the Serbs, V. Cubrilovic stated in his "Memorandum" (about which more will be told later) that "Toplica and Kosanica, once Albanian regions of ill-repute, gave Serbia the finest regiment in the wars of 1912-1918".

11. For the data concerning the Albanians of these territories, see E. PlIana, "Les raisons et Ia maniere de Ia migration des refugies albanais du territoire du Sandjak de Nish a Kosova (1877-1878)," Gjurmime Albanologjike IX 1979, Prishtine, 1980, pp. 129-156. Cf. also R. MarmullakuAlbania and the Albanians , London, 1975, p. 24 (does not contain details).

The Great Powers eventually left the Balkans in the hands of Austria and Russia. The influence of the latter, however, grew stronger as time went by.

In regard to Kosova, Russia sent priests to Serbian monasteries situated in the region exalting, together with the Orthodox faith, heroes and deeds pertaining to Serbian legends.18 They opened schools which were hotbeds of Slav propaganda. Clearly, her purpose was to colonize the province where the Serbs were but an insignificant minority.

The West knew little at that time about the Balkan states. In fact, the ignorance was such that some missionaries who went to Macedonia to support the Bulgarian cause confessed that formerly they had been ignorant of the fact that there were Bulgarians in the Peninsula; they had thought that only Greeks lived there. Practically nothing was known, of course, relative to the Albanians; those unfamiliar with the question could be told anything. Thus, when two Russian consuls in Kosova and Monastir were killed by Albanians (who acted in self-defense), these acts were described as being committed by 'Moslem fanatics'. The two propaganda agents were presented as martyrs; their funerals were grandiose. Since Christianity was equated with civilization and Islam with backwardness, the Christians were regarded as the allies of the Great Powers. Thus the Catholic Albanians who are animated by patriotic feelings were ignored by design. The Albanians were depicted merely as backward Moslems and as allies of the Turks.

18. "It seemed sheer folly to make a large and costly Serb theological school in a Moslem Albanian town and to import masters and students, when funds are so urgently needed to develop free Serb land" (ME. Durham,High Albania, London, 1909, p. 275). Even E. Noel-Buxton, of the Balkan Committee, whose attitude was pro-Slav, had to admit that "The spirit of chauvinism is but thinly veiled under the garb of churchmanship. Religion is degraded to the level of pretext for exciting national zeal" (Noel-Buxton, op. cit. p. 50).

Many books and articles were published by the South Slavs for the purpose of showing the ferocity of the Albanians, their backwardness, their despicable behavior, their lack of discipline, etc. Vladan Djordjevic, former Prime Minister of the Kingdom of Serbia, went even so far as to claim that until "as late as the 19th century", there had been Albanians with tail in their rear! Djordjevic even referred the reader to J.G. Von Hahn's scholarly work, Albanesische Studien, where, he asserted, he had found the information.19

19. V. Djordjevic,Les Albanais et les Grandes Puissances, 1913 p. 8. No information of this kind is contained in von Hahn’s work.

The purpose of all these writings was, of course, to draw a picture that gives to the non-specialist a very poor idea of the Albanians so that these, by dint of being despised by others may, in their innermost soul, start to despise themselves.20

20. According to Felix Adler, "The vice of vices is when we are held cheap by others sod then in our innermost soul start to think cheaply of ourselves." Protic, Gopcevic, Zupanic, Tomic, Djordjevic are some of the Slav authors who criticized the Albanians in a particularly uncivil way. Many others may be cited.

To be sure, there are established scholars - be they geographers, historians, anthropologists, or serious travelers and explorers - who have expressed opinions of a very different kind: H.N. Brailsford went even so far as to maintain that "from Byron's day downward it would be hard to find a Western European who has learned to know the Albanians without admiring them" (The New Republic, March 1, 1919). In fact those who had nice words on behalf of the Albanians were so numerous that the Serb S. Protic (Balkanicus) considered the tendency to praise the Albanians as highly ethical individuals and to describe them as "unusually gifted", to have become a fashion.21

21. 5. Protic,Das Albanesische Problem und die Beziehungen zwischen Oestereich- Ungarn, Leipzig, 1913, p. 19.

The fact remains, however, that the latter writings were not accessible to many. The influential French daily Le Temps, published merely articles favoring the Slavs and Greeks, for France was then Russia's ally.22

22. "Le journal parisien Le Temps avait mis ses colonnes a Ia disposition de ces detracteurs comme il les avait ouvertes pour les Grecs.. .," — "The Parisian daily Le Temps was at the disposal of these calumniators [i.e., of the Slays] as it was also at the disposal of the Greeks (Lumo Skendo, Albanais et Slaves, Lausanne, 1919, p. 3).

In order to achieve national unity with a delimited territory, the League had requested the Porte, in July 1878, to turn Albania into one vilayet. The request had not been granted. As a consequence, the Albanians, under their gallant leader Isa Boletini, a native of Kosova, openly took a stand against the Turks. All their activities were centered in the Kosova region, which became the cradle of their national struggle and thus acquired a special meaning for them.23

In 1912, when the Albanians seized Shkup (Skopje) and were about to enter Monastir (Bitolja), the Turks called a truce and granted them autonomy uniting the vilayets of Shkodra, Janina, Kosova, and part of Monastir. As a result of this Albanian victory, the government of the chauvinistic Young Turks Party was overthrown. The weakness of Turkey became thus evident.

The Albanians had administered a heavy blow to the Turks and rightly hoped for approval and sympathy, for, as Lord Goschen had rightly pointed out back in 1880, if the Turks lost Albania, they would lose their cause in Europe. Instead, the Albanian victory triggered the Balkan wars, the purpose of which was the annexation of Albanian-inhabited territories that were under Turkish rule.

At that time, Montenegro had been free from Ottoman rule for over forty years; Serbia and Greece for over eighty. These states, being independent, had their regular armies. When attacked on all sides (by the Greeks, the Montenegrins, and, of course, by the Serbs, who entered Kosova), the Albanians, aware of the great danger, hastened to raise their flag and declared their neutrality.

23. SeeR. Marmullaku Albania and the Albanians, Hurst and Co., London, 1975, pp. 23-24.

The atrocities perpetrated by the Serbo-Montenegrins during the Balkan wars on the Albanian population were acknowledged by the Serbian socialist Dimitrije Tucovic (1881-1914) in his book Srbija i Albanija (published in 1946):

The bourgeois clamored for a merciless extermination and the army executed the orders. The Albanian villages, from which the people had made a timely flight, were burned down. There were at the same time barbaric crematoria in which hundreds of women and children were burned alive...24

24. Cited by R. Marmullaku, op. cit., p. 137.

Brutalities committed by the Serbo-Montenegrins are also described in the Carnegie report. They may be best summed up in two short paragraphs taken from Mary Edith Durham's Twenty Years of Balkan Tangle (1920):

No Turks ever treated Armenians worse than did the two Serb peoples treat the Albanians in the name of the Holy Orthodox Church (p.235).25

25. Cf. also Aubrey Herbert, M.P.: "Very little was known about Albania. The general opinion was that the Albanians were another branch of the Armenian family, and indeed, as far as massacres were concerned, this was most understandable . . ." (A. Herbert, Ben Kenilim,
London, 1924, P. 24). According to ME. Durham, the slaughters of the Armenians were nothing compared to those of the Albanians: "The massacres of Adana and the resultant misery pale before the scarlet horrors committed wholesale in cold blood by the so-called followers of Christ" (Durham, Struggle for Scutari, London, 1914, p. 303).
About these slaughters see 1. Albaniens Golgotha, Anklageacten gegen die Vernichter des Albanervolkes, gesammelt und herausgegeben von L. Freundlich, Vienna, 1913. — 2. Enquete dans les Balkans, Rapport de Ia Commission d’enquete de Ia Dotation Carnegie pour Ia Paix internationale, Paris, 1914.

As for the Balkan Slav and his vaunted Christianity, it seems to me all civilization should rise and restrain him from further brutality (p.238).26

26. What surprised ME. Durham quite specially was the religious fanaticism of the Serbs:

"It was not astonishing that the Serbs hated Islam, but that they should fiercely hate every other Christian church, I had not expected. The Catholic was hated the most." According to Durham, the Moslem was to the Serbs "a lesser evil than the Catholic," (Twenty Years of Balkan Tangle, London, 1920, p. 52). "The hatred of the Serb Orthodox for the Catholics was shown in 1913 in the Balkan war, when the Montenegrin troops, whose object was said to be to liberate Christians, fell upon the little church of Mazreku, trampled the Host underfoot, dressed up in the priestly vestments, danced about, and amused themselves by cutting noses from images of the saints and firing bullets into the crufix" (Some Tribal Origins ... p. 28).

In 1913, a number of soldiers led by a bandit clad as an Orthodox priest stripped and bayonetted to death Luigj Palici, an Albanian Franciscan from Gjakova, because he refused to cross himself in the Orthodox manner. "Austria intervened sharply. Had she not done so, in the words of a Catholic refugee, there would not have been a Catholic left" (E.C. Helmreich, The Diplomacy of the Balkan Wars, Harvard U.P., 1938, p. 317).

In 1919, a treaty concerning minorities was signed at Saint-Germain-en- Laye whereby the Yugoslav Government pledged to protect all citizens without discrimination as to race, nationality, and creed. Yet the persecutions against the Catholic Kosovars continued. Mother Teresa’s father, a native of Shkup (Skopje), and a noted Albanian patriot, was poisoned by the Serbs, as reported by his son Lazer Bojaxhiu in an interview published in Gente (Dec. 1979 andJan. 1980). Mother Teresa’s family was obliged to move to Tirana, where her mother and sister died (the former in 1974; the latter in 1976).

In 1929, was executed Father Shtjefen Gjecovi, a Franciscan, greatly respected by all the Albanians for his erudition and his righteousness. As a result, on May 5, 1930, three Catholic priests, obliged to leave the region, addressed the "League of Nations" a memorandum concerning the tragic plight of the Albanians in Yugoslavia (see H. Kokalari, Kosova, Rome, 1962, p. 165).

It should be reiterated that the unbelievable massacres were in no way committed as a result of a struggle between Christians and Moslems, as it was at that time believed by Gladstone and stressed in his speeches.27 They were solely motivated by the desire to decimate the Albanian race. Not only Kosova was coveted, but all of North Albania

27. Cf. E. Noel-Buxton: "Mr. Gladstone said, the Christian, who retained his faith at the price of slavery, when by recanting he could obtain every favour, is entitled to the name of martyr and to him Europe owes the gratitude" (op. cit., p. 27).— That the conversions of the Albanians would be taken as a pretext to expand territory was already pointed out by A. Boue who was for the freedom of all nations and had little respect for those who "for sheer purposes of invasion consider themselves chosen by God to exterminate the Moslems and make people happy." (". . . chez ceux, qui s’intitulent, par pure politique d’envahissement, les elus du Tres-Haut pour l’extermination des Musulmans et le bonheur du genre humain," Boue, Recueil d’itineraires dans Ia Torquie dEurope, 1854, I, "Avant-Propos."

During World War I, Albania's neutrality was not respected and mass massacres continued.

At the turn of the century, the reports of the Ohio journalist J.A.Mac Cahan concerning the Bulgarian uprising, had shocked the West; as known, Russia used these accounts as a pretext to march against the Turks. By contrast, the Albanian cause did not benefit from the Carnegie report, nor by the frequent and moving declarations of philanthropists and journalists who, like M.E. Durham, were eyewitnesses to mass massacres of women and children, simply because it was not in the interest of the Great Powers to take Albania's defense.28

28. No study is available on ME. Durham, except for that of Sh. Shaqiri, "ME. Durham dhe Shqiptar&,"Nentori, Oct. 1981, pp. 149-164. A talented painter and writer,a good historian and an excellent anthropologist (her diaries and other papers are available at the "Royal Anthropological Institute of Gr. Br. and Ireland," London, of which she was a member and to whose journal, Man, she contributed many articles), she also worked as a volunteer in Montenegrin hospitals as well as for the "Macedonia Relief Fund." Her first book was devoted to the Serbs (Through the Land of the Serbs, London, 1904). But, as pointed out by Aubrey Herbert, it was only their revolting cruelty that turned her affection into dislike" (A. Herbert, Ben Kendim , p. 220). Her later attitude toward the Serbo-Montenegrins is conveyed by a passage contained in Twenty Years of Balkan Tangle: "On arriving in London I packed up the Gold Medal given me by King Nikola and returned it to him stating that I had often expressed surprise at persons, who accepted decorations from Abdul Hamid, and that now I knew that he and his subjects were even more cruel than the Turk, I would not keep his blood-stained medal any longer. I communicated this to the English and Austrian press. The order of Saint Sava given me by King Petar of Serbia, I decided to keep a little longer till some pecularly flagrant case" (p. 25).

The well-known Swiss geographer H. Hauser, rightly pointed out that the principle of nationality, like all other principles, cannot be applied in a strict and equitable manner given the fact that most places constitute, with respect to the population inhabiting them, a mosaic.29

29. H. Hauser, "Le principe des nationalites," (30-page pamphlet, reprint fromRevuepolitique internationale, March-April, 1916). See also A. van Gennep,Traite des nationalites, 1922, p. 24.

In 1878, Lord Goschen and Lord Fitzmaurice had been in favor of a large Albania comprising the Albanian-inhabited territories of the four vilayets.30 But, at the Congress of Berlin it was decided -as already pointed out - that territories indisputably Albanian be handed over to Montenegro and to Serbia. Places connected with Albanian history and national pride, like Janina, Arta, Preveza, were allotted to the Greeks, who within a relatively short period of time were to exterminate the overwhelming Albanian population inhabiting them. No system of guarantees was applied. Albanians, numbering hundreds of thousands were to be forcibly sent to Turkey.

The manner in which Albanian territories were ceded to neighboring states clearly indicates how arbitrary decisions that make history may be. And one cannot but agree with Mircea Eliade (The Myth of the Eternal Return), who, with respect to the theory that valorizes historical events, to which the 19th century attached so much importance, pertinently remarked that such a theory could have been established only by thinkers who know nothing about injustices and miseries caused by history.

30. A. Herbert, op. cit., p. 216 and M.E. Durham, Twenty-Years p. 83.

Albanian population lived, remained outside the borders assigned to her.31 As Lord Fitzsimmons rightly remarked, "Albania was to start her career as a state mutilated from her birth". Indeed, as a nation humiliated in her pride, she had no place among her sister nations. She was doomed to poverty, bitterness, and complete isolation.

In regard to Kosova, a territory where Albanians displayed their most important activities for the independence of their nation and a region which, as some scholars contend, is the cradle of the Albanian people, the principles of ethnicity and self determination were not observed. Nor had they been taken into account when districts indisputably Albanian had been allotted to Montenegro and Serbia by the Treaty of Berlin. At that time, the principle of history had been ignored as well.

31. The tragic fate of many of these Albanians, who remained outside the borders assigned to the state of Albania, was to populate Asia Minor. As indicated (p. 10), the guarantees stipulated by the Treaty of Berlin were not honored by Serbia. Likewise, over 300,000 Albanians inhabiting the regions ceded to Greece were expelled by the Greek Government and obliged to settle in Turkey as a result of an exchange treaty of the Turkish and the Greek Governments (see, among others, A.A. Pallis, "The exchange of populations in the Balkans," Nineteenth Century, March, 1925, pp. 376-387). Pallis begins his article by saying that ‘the exchanges of populations, as a method of settling the problems of minorities, has been condemned in many quarters as a barbarous and dangerous innovation in internal politics." The Greek delegate at the Lausanne Conference had, in fact, declared that ‘Greece agrees that the compulsory exchanges shall not be applicable to her Moslem subjects of Albanian origin." However, the Greeks declared the Moslems of Tchameria as being "merely Albanophones," but in reality Greeks, and on this basis forced them to emigrate (Pallis art. cit.). Pallis argued that they emigrated of their own accord and that they were pleased in Turkey. This, however, is not the opinion of Ruth Pennington who returned to England in 1927 after ten months of work with the immigrants, ‘In Turkey the are 300,000 Albanian-speaking immigrants. Of these at least 10% would willingly shift their quarters and move again seeking for better land, to rejoin cousins and friends, who have already moved. Turkey does not wish for any further depopulation, but in spite of official prohibition, for the next 10 to 20 years there will be a constant leakage . . ." (Near East and India, Sept. 15, 1927, p. 333).

Although in 1913, the population of the south Albanian region ceded to Greece was over 90% Albanian, no Albanian schools or newspapers were ever allowed. This population has been almost extirpated on account of the harsh treatment to which it was subjected.

When, following World War I, the Dalmatian question was discussed, the fact that the West Adriatic coast had previously belonged to the Venetians, Austrians, Hungarians, and - in parts - to the Turks, and that, moreover, Slav colonization of the Coast was a relatively recent event in history (for, although the Slavs had settled in some parts of the Coast already in the 7th century, colonization was still going on as late as the beginning of the 20th century),32 did not have an adverse effect relating to the claims of the South Slavs. According to M.R. Vesnic, ...except for historical arguments... no present day consideration would authorize Italy to spell out such pretentions. Economically, geographically, and from the point of view of morale, these shores are inseparable from the hinterland which is Yugoslavia.33

32. Austria supported the Slavs against the Italians. Cf. M.E. Durham: "The Slavizing process in Dalmatia visibly progressed until the German-Austrians began to realize that they were warming a viper and feel nervous" (Twenty Years p. 13); cC. also U. Biscottini, Sull italianita della Dalmazia, 1930, p. 55.
33. MR. Vesnic, Les aspirations nationales de Ia Serbie (no date) p. 16.

Thus, disregarding historical considerations, Yugoslavia was allotted territories that were vast beyond her wildest dreams: to her devolved the beautiful Dalmatian Coast, where the Slavs had not ruled before, except for brief periods of time (a claim contested by the Hungarians) on some portions of it; to her was ceded Macedonia where the Serb population was insignificant and to which the Serbs had no claims before 1885;34 to her was allotted the Vojvodina (Banat) where a certain number of Serbs had been hospitably allowed to settle in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries. The newly created state of Yugoslavia also retained territories which, regardless of the principles of ethnicity and self-determination had been previously granted to Serbia and Montenegro by the Treaty of Berlin and forcibly annexed by them.

34. In 1880, the French consul in Scutari, when describing Macedonia in an "Aperiu geographique" of Albania, prepared by him for the French Government, did not even mention the Serbs: ‘La Macedonie est en effet partagee entre les Albanais, les Grecs, les KutzoValaques et les Bulgares," — Macedonia is divided between Albanians, Greeks, Vlachs, and Bulgarians," (unpublished document contained in Albanie, Dossier I, "Archives de la Defense," Chateau de Vincennes, Paris). Cf. also M.E. Durham, The Serajevo Crime (London, 1925): "When I was living in Ochrida in the winter of 1903-4, a Serb schoolmaster had but just arrived. The largest school in town was the Bulgar one. The Greeks made a bad second. In spite of all his efforts, the Serb only succeeded in scraping up about 50 persons including his own family, the Greek priest and myself, to celebrate Saint Sava’s day. The majority were poor school children picked up in the town. In those days anyone who said that the Serbs would one day own Ochrida would have been thought insane" (p. 27). II ‘Dr. Milovanovich admitted in 1898 that the Serbs did not begin to think about Macedonia till 1885" (E. Noel-Buxton, Balkan Problems and European Peace, London, 1919, P. 27). /1 In regard to Macedonia, A. van Gennep, citing the Carnegie Report, criticized the Serb scholars Belic and Cvijic, attributing no scientific value to their research, because their sole purpose, according to the Carnegie report, was "to support the political claims of Serbia" (Van Gennep, Traitet� &s nationalites, Paris, ed. Payot, 1922, P. 202).

Faust, when translating the New Testament into his mother tongue, rendered with "action" the meaning of "logos", thus writing: "at the beginning was action".35 As prototype of modern man, Faust did not believe in the fascination and power of the word, as traditional doctrines do. Since then, however, sociologists and anthropologists, especially Frazer, have pointed out the magic that not merely traditional doctrines, but also the so-called primitive peoples attach to certain words and names, the use they make of them in myths, and how these myths affect them. In his turn, Freud has rightly remarked that the primitive mind is contained in all of us. We are impressed by words. Indeed, the suggestive power emanating from some particular words and names that affect our unconscious, especially when used in myths, surpasses action. More exactly, words may become dynamic symbols; they automatically generate action owing to the very magic contained in them.

In fact, Old Serbia acquired for the Serbs a magic power similar to that contained in Illyria.

a. It was asserted that Stara Srbija was the cradle of the Nemanjis, the Serbian kings. Special emphasis, in this regard, was laid on the Glorious Empire of Stefan Dušan.

b. Of foremost importance was considered the Battle of 1389 against the Turks on the Field of Kosova. It was somehow implied in various writings that Czar Dušan's Empire was sacrificed on that battle which was said to have been fought by the Serbs alone to protect Europe.

c. The Serbs who wanted to prove that the Albanian-inhabited region had formerly been ethnically Serb, underscored and proclaimed widely what it became known as the Serbian Exodus or the Emigration of the Serbs to Hungary. It was stressed that the Serbs, as a result of the Austro-Turkish wars of 1690 and 1735, had been obliged to evacuate the region and emigrate to Hungary under the leadership of their bishop, Arsenije III Crnojevic. And that, subsequently, the land, once vacant, had been colonized by the ferocious Albanians assisted by the Turks. The Albanians inhabiting Kosova were thus considered as recent settlers who had no right to be there.

These important issues which played a paramount role in the delimitation of the Albanian borders shall be discussed in PartII.

35. MR. Vesnic, Les aspirations nationales de Ia Serbie (no date) p. 16. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hipi Zhdripi (talk • contribs)
Hipi can you please share the link where you found the info, so we can check if sources are reliable and verifiable. Thanks for the info. (Asterion, thanks for restoring the text, that was removed by someone) greetings, Ilir pz 20:57, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Anyone out there?

Where is everyone? I thought all new changes would be discussed beforehand as a matter of respect? (This also goes for unsigned edits, Hipi) --Asterion talk to me 20:08, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Well considering a lot of us are in school/university at the moment...we don't have much time to contribute, only revert ocassionally:P. C-c-c-c 21:00, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Reverting is not to do if you dont have much time to contribute. Instead discuss a little, that helps more. Asterion, I am a bit busy with school, for another 2-3 days, then will dedicate more time here. ilir_pz 21:15, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

No problem. I understand. What is the story with the map now? Have I missed anything?!? Asterion talk to me 21:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, Ilir, don't take this personal, but I've made a few changes to the article.

Actually, just one - the map. Kosovo is defined as autonomous province within former Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (now Serbia and Montenegro, thats in the article. So, now we have a map that points that out. --serbiana - talk 21:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Boris not even b92 has that map that you put there. Do not start revert wars for no reason. I proposed a map for those who like maps, but none liked the idea. ilir_pz 22:05, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes. OK, Boris, you may have a point but I am afraid this is going to take things back to square one. Is it worth it? I have serious doubts indeed. Asterion talk to me 21:50, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Fair warning

Revert activity at this page has been flagged at WP:AN, and as it's now reached the point where a user's first edit (I use the term loosely, I suspect) was a revert here. Revert changes if you must, but note that doing so repeatedly, without regard to talk page discussion, or in egregiously suspicious circumstances, may be regarded as disruption. Alai 23:05, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. This page was stable for some time, and editors from both sides achieved a consensus and were rationally editing, until recently when someone started changing maps, from some IP in Canada, some suspicious Special:Contributions/SerbianMafia account etc. I would appreciate some attention by any admin here in such cases. ilir_pz 23:18, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

I agree with you fully. How about you help by stopping yourself?!ilir_pz 01:10, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Good to hear. You also broke the 3RR rule, lawl. --Krytan 01:12, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

You're trying to push me toward that using your multiple usernames, right? Not difficult to guess.ilir_pz 01:15, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Multiple usernames? I don't understand. I don't have multiple usernames. Although I don't break wikipedia rules either, like somebody I know ;) I'll be doing some reporting after. Turns out you might not get banned today, maybe tomorrow? Cheers, --Krytan 01:22, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Good luck! ilir_pz 01:23, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but this is a invasion of sebian account in en:Wikipedia

Im waitting if any administrator is going to do something agains this invasion. Now Im going to sleep. Ilir ky invasion nuk mund të pritet me diskutime ko është më se e qartë. Po më dhimbset PANONIA dhe ti, në fund të fundit puna e ju dy do të dëmtohet nga ky invasion. --Hipi Zhdripi 01:55, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Please keep it in English, for the rest of the users to understand. There is no "invasion" of Serbian accounts. All the best, --Krytan 02:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Blocks on the basis of checkuser result

Given this, I've blocked several users involved in the recent spree of reverts. If there are additional undiscussed reverts, in either direction, either from editors who've repeatedly reverted before, or who "show up out of nowhere", I'm going to block for disruption without further warning. Let's see some discussion, and a ceasation of the sniping and tag-team reverts. Alai 02:52, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppet thing

I will automatically revert any unsigned edits due to latest batch of sockpuppetry incidents. Asterion talk to me 07:24, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Naming convention

We agreed the name Kosova would not be used as not commonplace in English language. Therefore, the correct term to use in Wikipedia is Kosovo. Kosova is POV. Asterion talk to me 11:53, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The term Racak Massacre is POV. This is not even been used in the dedicated article, Racak incident. Asterion talk to me 11:56, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The addition of this text is POV and is not verifiable: In a number of cases, Albanian families were expelled from their apartments to make space for the refugees.

The victims have been executed by Serb forces, which were refusing to allow proper autopsy of the victims is simply not true as Helena Ranta and other forensic teams were immediately allowed.

After the Dayton Agreement in 1995, Albanians organized into the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), employing guerilla-style tactics against Serbian police forces. Yugoslav forces allegedly committed war crimes in Kosovo, although the Serbian government claims that the army was only going after suspected Albanian "terrorists". is not only POV but sarcastic. The previous text was a neutral alternative: After the Dayton Agreement in 1995, an armed movement called the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), employing guerilla-style tactics, took shape in western Kosovo. It was mainly composed of local youngsters, unemployed and farmers.

I would appreciate an explanation. Regards, Asterion talk to me 12:07, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the naming convention, as long as none adds the "metohija" part to the name, in return.
I do not agree with your questioning the cases of Albanian families being expelled to mkae space for the refugees from Krajina etc. I will find facts for that very soon. Also do not agree that ``ìt is not```true that the victims were executed by Serb forces in the Racak Massacre. That what happened there cannot be described in any other way but a massacre, civillians were shot from a close distance. The forensics did prove that.
The "neutral" alternative you provide to describe KLA is really funny. It makes it sound as if NO educated people were in such organization. I can tell you you are very mistaken. Hence that ridiculous statement is not neutral at all, whoever added it should have not speculated but instead read a bit more. ilir_pz 13:24, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
That sentence can come off (I did not write it, though I do not take it as offensive). My point was about the last sentence of the version replaced by Hipi. Also, the word massacre is semantically loaded and it is not used in the Racak incident article either. Asterion talk to me 17:08, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The first line of "Racak incident" says "The Racak incident (also called the Racak massacre or Racak operation)". What do you mean it is not used? ilir_pz 17:14, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Precisely the same than when I ask you to use Kosovo and not Kosova. This is not the article name, as it was deemed too biased. Asterion talk to me 18:04, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

List of presidents

If this section is to remain it should be accompnied by some explanatory information. To begin with, it should be noted that these 'presidents' of Kosovo are not and have never been internationally recognized. Rather, they were the inofficial representatives of the kosovo albanian population. Wikipedia should be used to convey facts, not to push a political agenda. So, although the 'presidents' were representatives of the majority of the people of Kosovo, they were, in fact, not the officially recognized as such.Osli73 13:21, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

SCG nonexistant

I will make one thing clear. As 1244 does not say that Kosovo is formally a part of Serbia, I will not allow people to alter that in the preamble of Kosovo article. Call your senses, please. ilir_pz 22:09, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

However, it does say it is formally part of Former Yugoslavia, who's heir is, as of right now, Serbia:)))). Get over it Ilir, stop denying facts. C-c-c-c 22:13, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Whatever. ilir_pz 22:49, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Are you limiting your vocabulary to "whatever"? C-c-c-c 22:53, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Lol sorry Boris:P C-c-c-c 22:54, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

whatever. ilir_pz 00:52, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, Ilir. I think your feeling a little down. C-c-c-c 03:22, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

At least Montenegro is gone? :) --Krytan 03:46, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

It is official finally. UNtil 1244 is changed and adapted to any new version, it does not belong here. ilir_pz 07:29, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Official status of Kosovo

In the article it states that Kosovo is "autonomous province within former Federal Republic of Yugoslavia under UN administration." As Yugoslavia changed its name to Serbia and Montenegro, shouldn't this also be stated in the article. In the case the union between Serbia and Montenegro is ended, shouldn't Kosovo, de jure, become a part of the Republic of Serbia?

What do you think? Osli73 07:51, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

No it shouldn't. You canno just derive one statement to the other, according to some "logic". ilir_pz 11:24, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Assuming the union between CG and Serbia ends, then The Republic of Serbia will be the heir or the Republic of Yugoslavia, and thus, have de jure jurisdiction over Kosovo. Why else would the EU, the UN, the US and other involved parties recognize the Republic of Serbia's government in Belgrade as the legitimate negotiating party in the Vienna talks over the future of the province? If Kosovo is not de jure part of Serbia, what are they negotiating about?

I know a lot of Kosovo Albanians like to think that Kosovo is an independent country or simply just a territory under UN administration. However, the fact, stated in 1244, is that it is recognized as a part of Yugoslavia. And, as Yugoslavia has ceased to exist it is recognized as part of the Republic of Serbia.

Who is saying that Serbian Govement (Serbia) is regodnasied als the UN member. Perhaps Kosovo is going tp be regodnasied and Serbia with Vojvodina are going to spleet. After sometime Sandjak and Serbia???? How you areseeng Serbia is a small place. It is like a bothel without milk, out side the serbian nationalist has maked wite color and you are saying that it is milk?????

Perhaps Kosovo might be or might not be recognized. Vojvodina and Serbia will never split, because Vojvodina is Serbia. The actual name is Serbian Vojvodina, but because it's within Serbia, it doesn't need to have that in front. Sandžak? That's not even recognized. It's people like you who want to tear up Serbia. But if that's your mission, learn English first. Sign your edits too. Krytan talk 21:45, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Sandžak ( That's not even recognized???? ) and Vojvodina is recognized yes? Sandjak needs a littel more time to be recognized one or two yeare.

I know a sebians siged the song

Ko to kaze, ko to laze da Serbia je mala kan nam Belgrada Pasaluk je dala.

Two things I compel to complain

1. The Serbian dinar has been removed from the currency in the article.

2. It mentions (now Serbia) instead of the recent (now Serbia and Montenegro). If this refers to the dissolution of the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro, they're far from being dissolved - the results of the referendum are still 5% off, and we'll know final results tonight. There is a long road ahead of Serbia and Montenegro, regardless of whether the Montenegrin independence referendum has succeeded or failed. --HolyRomanEmperor 18:06, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

The table

The map doesn't even show Kosovo within Serbia, like the Vojvodina map. Like this, it looks as if Kosovo is independent. Krytan talk 23:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Maybe because Kosovo is not within Serbia? didnt you wonder about that? ~Kosovo is soon to be de-jure recognized as independent, as de-facto it is. ilir_pz 23:12, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh jeez... but every map I look at, everywhere, Kosovo is still within Serbia. And Kosovo can be as independent as they want, at least let Leposavic and other Serb-majority municipalities stay with Serbia. RS could unify with Serbia too. Krytan talk 23:19, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I am none to decide that what you wish. Contact group has said specifically that Kosovo will not be devided, at any cost. And the status has to be acceptable to be acceptable to the people of Kosovo, which means independence will be the result, sooner or later. But according to Serbian sources that is to happen in November Sorry for the diappointment. Montenegro is not the last part of former Yugoslav federation to be formally recognized as independent. ilir_pz 23:24, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

It was good while it lasted :+) I'm happy that Montenegro is gone. And now Kosovo? I could really care less. I would want what's good for the Serbian people. However, when that independence day comes, then you will use this template: {{Infobox Country}}. Otherwise, the same table as Vojvodina should be used. Krytan talk 23:31, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't good for my nation, Albanians, anyways. So what happens with it I care less than I care for what happens with a tribe in a tribe in African jungles. I don't mind that you don't care about Kosovo. Since you don't I encourage you not to involve in edit warring, out of no reason. The template for country will be used when the time comes. As Kosovo is a territory under UN administration, no template for such cases exists. Hence, it should stay as it is. Regards, ilir_pz 23:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't good for my nation, Albanians, anyways. How? Krytan talk 23:43, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

No comment. ilir_pz 23:52, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Alright. The only reason I thought Kosovo was within Serbia was because of the Serbian constitution, but ok. Krytan talk 23:54, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Image of destroyed Serbian church

A Serbian church, before and after it was destroyed in the pogrom of 2004

During the last edit reversions going around, people have also been removing and adding back in this image. I think we should discuss it here. Personally, I do not have a real opinion on the matter, but it certainly cannot be dismissed that also many Serbian people and buildings suffered from the war. Cpt. Morgan 10:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

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