Talk:Ante Pavelić

Most murderous regime I

"Pavelic's Ustashe regime was the most murderous regime in the whole that time occupied Europe?" Who is writing these articles, Chetnik Youth? This whole paragraph (all the way to Malaparte quotes) should be deleted for two reasons: 1) Useless, non-encyclopedical garbage that can be used for propaganda only 2) Even if you ignore that you can see how badly is that text incorporated with the rest of the article (i.e. you just can't put such paragraph on the end of the article. Articles should end with place, time and circumstances of death info).

Snowspinner ????

First you revert kucan and drnovsek articles and than you just revert this article not because of the size but because you didn`t like that I was wright when I said pavelic was fascist.

--Avala

I don't know about those other articles, but it's not unexpected that oversized and unexplained images will be removed. It's best to fix them, anyway, and I did that. You also did a sloppy job in the Belgrade article, it took me ages to download that over modem :) But all is well that ends well. --Shallot 11:05, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

For me it is unexpected. I always fix if I am able to.

Well I took those pics for Belgrade from German wiki and you know that they use ADSL with 3mb/s!

:D--Avala 15:25, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

About the term "most murderous regime": this is first subjective and prone to edit wars as I see here and second, the situation in occupied parts of Soviet Union with partisan activity was possibly as bad or worse. I would recommend to stick with version [1] by 83.139.82.247. Pavel Vozenilek 02:55, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I am by no means an apologist for the Croat fascists, but I think the label 'most murderous regime' needs some

The sourcing is given below. This regime is known for the bestialities that surpassed anything seen in the wartime. Even German and Italian occupying forces were prompted to stop Ustashi in commiting them - horrfied by what they had seen. I'm afraid that the numbers of the corpses per Ustashi capita are much bigger than the ones that could be calculated for Germans.--Purger 16:59, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

sourcing. For example, someone coming to this page who isn't an expert would probably assume Nazi Germany was the 'most murderous regime' of the period - concentration camps directly run by the Nazis were responsible for a good few million murders, even before we look at occupied Russia. So, to be blunt, if the Croats are going to beat the Germans they are not going to do it on sheer number of corpses. Maybe on some measure such as number of murders per German/Croat citizen, per square mile of occupied territory, or per head in teritory under their control. Quite possibly you're right, but we could do with a citation to demonstrate it.81.41.90.223 20:14, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Caputt quote

Everyking, it's unclear to me what the long paragraph about the book accomplishes. If the eye-basket is really a figment of the author's imagination, then don't mention it, otherwise readers can draw the conclusion that it was a normal feature for writers to go around publishing fabricated horror stories about the poor old innocent person. --Shallot 00:11, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Huh? Don't lecture me, I just made a few minor fixes to the paragraph. I have no opinion on whether it should be included, I've never even heard of the book. Everyking 00:23, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Oh, bleh, I didn't notice it was an anonymous edit at first, I just went by the name seen above the diff output. I'm sorry!

In any case, the comment itself stands, I'll go edit the paragraph. --Shallot 00:45, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Most murderous regime II

There is a person claiming as if

1. (The last paragraph is a total bias opinion and should not be found in an encyclopedia, considering you can not label Ustase as the worst murderers in all of Europe)
2. (Ustase were not a fascist organization by definition even though they might have taken on many fascist ideologies. Also FICTIONAL books such as Kaputt should not be used as a refrence.)

The person's identification - 72.139.243.79 (IP Address)

To disjudge those who might trust this person - here are the quotes worth of reading:

<quote>

In April 1941 separatist Croats of the fascist terrorist organization 'Ustasha' set up in Zagreb an Independent Croat regime with Dr. Ante Pavelic as fuehrer, or "Poglavnik," and with Marshal Slavko Kvaternik as minister of war.

The new state, organized on strictly fascist and authoritarian lines, excelled quickly by the special ruthlessness and cruelty with which it persecuted, and partially exterminated the large Serb minority and the small Jewish population...

</quote>

"Encyclopedia Britannica, 1943 - Book of the year," page 215, Entry: 'Croatia' 

<quote>

Slavko Kvaternik explained [in a radio program on April 10, 1941, the day the 'Independent State of Croatia' was formed] how a pure Croatia should be built - by forcing one third of the Serbs to leave Croatia, one third to convert to Catholicism, and one third to be exterminated. Soon Ustasha bands initiated a bloody orgy of mass murder of Serbs unfortunate enough not to have converted or left Croatia on time.

The enormity of such criminal behavior shocked even the conscience of German commanders, but Pavelic had Hitler's personal support for such actions which resulted in the loss of the lives of hundreds of thousands of Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina.

</quote>

'Worldmark Encyclopedia of the Nations,' Europe, edition 1995, page 91, entry: 'Croatia.' 

<quote>

The Orthodox recipe of Ante Pavelic, Ustashi leader and Croatian Fuehrer, reminds one of the religious wars in [their] bloodiest aspects: one-third must become Catholic, one-third must leave the country and one-third must die. The last item was executed. When the leading men of the Ustashi movement are stating that they have slaughtered one million Serbs (including infants, children, women and aged) this in my opinion is a self-praising exaggeration. According to the reports that have reached me, my estimate is that the number of those defenseless slaughtered is some three-quarters of a million.

</quote>

Herman Naubacher, "Sonderauftrag Sudosten 1940-1945. Bericht eines fliegenden Diplomate," Goettingen, 1956

<quote>

In Croatia the indigenous fascist regime set about a policy of 'racial purification' that went beyond even Nazi practices. Minority groups such as Jews and Gypsies were to be eliminated, as were the Serbs: it was declared that one-third of the Serbian population would be deported, one-third converted to Roman Catholicism, and one third liquidated. ... Ustasha bands terrorized the countryside. The partial collaboration of the Catholic clergy in these practices continues to be a component of Serb-Croat suspicion.

</quote>

'Encyclopaedia Britannica,' Edition 1991, Macropedia, Vol. 29, page 1111. 

<quote>

Nonpartisan sources agree that mass genocide was authorized by the state of Croatia. They concur the state instigated, planned, and executed masses against the Serbian Orthodox minority... and that the Catholic clergy approved, led, or failed to denounce these massacres. The Croats' collective hatred of the Orthodox Serbs was explicit in folk sayings such as ["Srbe o vrbe" -] "Serbs to the willows [hang the Serbs]." ... By June 1941, signs on public establishments read, 'NO SERBS, JEWS, NOMADS ['Gypsies'] AND DOGS ALLOWED."

</quote>

Helen Fein, "Accounting for Genocide - Victims and Survivors of the Holocaust," The Free Press, New York, Edition 1979, pages 102, 103. 

<quote>

Even the most extraordinary massacres in the darkest era of history would not soil its name - Croatia... Kill, kill, scream the Ustashi against Serbs. And they cut their heads off and throw bodies away into the Sava River which flows slowly and gravely in the direction of Belgrade...

"Go back to your motherland, go back to your motherland.

"Neither Fascists nor Nazi have the remotest resemblance to the Ustashi, they are a fauna absolutely extraordinary and strange..."

</quote>

Alfio Russo, "Revoluzione in Jugoslavia," Roma 1944 

<quote>

For now I began to get news from Croatia that told of slowly rising tide of murders, of unrepeatable atrocities, of massacres of defenceless Serbs by berserk-mad Croatians and by [fascist] Moslems in Bosnian Croatia. In the little back parlors of trusty men, the tales were whispered. I could not believe a quarter of them. Unfortunately, I was soon to know that they were a weak understatement of the truth. Men were to arrive in Dubrovnik itself, hung with strings of Serbian tongues and with bowls of Serbian eyes for sale.

</quote>

Ruth Mitchell, "The Serbs Choose War," Doubleday, Doran, 1943, page 148

<quote>

Jasenovac [was] the largest concentration camp in Croatia. Jasenovac was in fact a complex of several subcamps, in close proximity to each other, on the bank of the Sava River... established in August 1941 and was dismantled only on April 1945...

Some six hundred thousand people were murdered at Jasenovac, mostly Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and opponents of the Ustasha regime... The living conditions in the camp were extremely severe... A particularly cruel regime, and unbelievably cruel behavior by the Ustashe guards...

The acts of murder and of the cruelty in the camp reached their peak in the late summer of 1942, when tens of thousands of Serbian villagers were deported to Jasenovac from the area of the fighting against the partisans in the Kozara Mountains.

</quote>

'Encyclopedia of the Holocaust,' Vol. 2, page 739. 

<quote>

In the concentration camp at Jasenovac, on the night of August 29, 1942, orders were issued for executions. Bets were made as to who could liquidate the largest number of inmates. Peter Brzica cut the throats of 1,360 prisoners with a specially sharp butcher's knife. Having been proclaimed the prizewinner of the competition, he was elected King of the Cutthroats. A gold watch, a silver service, and a roasted sucking pig and wine were his other rewards...

</quote>

Avro Manhattan, "The Vatican's Holocaust," 1986, page 48.

Nuremberg testimonies

Misha Glenny, The Balkans, Penguin Books 1999 Page 500

In July 1941, for example, some 500 Serbs, including women and children, from Glina, a small town 65 kilometres south-east of Zagreb, were arested and shot dead. As a consequence, the peasants from the surrounding villages hid themselves in the woods. The Nuremberg Tribunal described what happened next.

The Ustase offered an amnesty if they would convert to Roman Catholicism. A majority of peasants agreed and returned to their villages.

"The mass conversion was organized and the peasants duly arrived at the Serbian Orthodox church in Glina. 250 people turned up for the event. They were greeted by six members of Ustase. When all were inside, the chuch doors were locked shut. The peasants were forced to lie on the ground and the six Ustase begin hitting them with spiked clubs. More Ustase appeared and one after another every single peasant was murdered in this fashion"

The quote above comes from the Nuremberg Trials, quoted in

Ladislaus Hory and Martin Broszat Der kroatische Ustascha-Staat, 1941-1945 Stuttgart, 1964, page 101

"The horrors that the Ustashi have committed over the Serbian small girls is beyond all words. There are hundreds of photographs confirming these deeds because those of them who have survived the torture: bayonet stabs, pulling of tongues and teeth, nails and breast tips - all this after they were raped. Survivors were taken in by our officers and transported to Italian hospitals where these documents and facts were gathered."

(Commander of the Italian Sassari Division in Croatia, 1941)

"Increased activity of the bands is chiefly due to atrocities carried out by Ustasha units in Croatia against the Orthodox population. The Ustashas committed their deeds in a bestial manner not only against males of conscript age, but especially against helpless old people, women and children. The number of the Orthodox that the Croats have massacred and sadistically tortured to death is about three hundred thousand."

(Report to Reichsfuhrer SS Heinrich Himmler from the GeheimeStaatspolizei - GESTAPO - dated February 17, 1942)

Hermann Heubacher, the German Minister to Belgrade (1941) Hitler's personal assistant for the South-East Europe and the Balkan affairs in Zagreb (1942-1944), a witness at Nuremberg Trial in his book

Sonderauftrag Suedost 1940-1945, Bericht eines fliegendes Diplomaten,2. durchgesehene Auflage, Mai 1957

page 31.

Zu diesen explosiven Nationalbestrebungen kommen religioese Gegensaetze zwischen Katholiken, Pravoslaven und Muselmanen. Als ich einmal einen in Montenegro beruemht gewordenen Cetnikfuehrer zuredete, di Muselmanen in Ruhe zu lassen - er hat mir versprochen und sein Versprechen gehalten - erhielt ich eine Antwort, die aus den Tuerkenzeit-Anekdoten des Marco Miljanow stammen konnte: " Wer diesen Glauben hat, ist keine Serbe mehr!" Das Pravoslavenrezept des Ustaschafuehrers und Poglavnik ( Staatsfuehrers ) Kroatiens, Ante Pavelic, erinnert an Relilgionskriege blutigsten Andenkens: " Ein Drittel muss katolisch werden, ein Drittel muss das Land verlassen, ein Drittel muss sterben!" Der letzte Programmpunkt wurde durchgefuehrt.

WENN FUEHRENDE USTASCHA-MAENNER BEHAUPTETEN, DASS EINE MILLION PRAVOSLAVISCHE SERBEN (EINSCHLIESSLICH DER SAEUGLINGE, KINDER, FRAUEN UND GREISE ) GESCHLACHTET WURDEN, SO IST DAS NACH MEINER MEINUNG EINE RUHMREDIGE UEBERTREIBUNG. AUF GRUND DER MIR ZUGEKOMMENEN BERICHTE SHAETZE ICH DIE ZAHL DER WEHRLOS ABGESCHLACHTETEN AUF DREIVIERTEL MILLIONEN.

Translation of the capital lettering only:

When the leading men of the Ustashi movement are stating that they have slaughtered one million Serbs (including infants, children, women and aged) this in my opinion is a self-praising exaggeration. According to the reports that have reached me, my estimate is that the number of those defenseless slaughtered is some three quarter of a million.

End of translation

Als ich wieder einmal wahrhaft entsetzliche Vorgaenge in meiner kroatischen Nachbarschaft im Hauptquartier zur Sprache brachte, sagte mir Adolf Hitler:

"Ich habe dem Poglavnik auch gesagt, dass man eine solche Minderheit nicht einfach ausrotten cann: sie ist zu gross!"

page 18.

Der nach diesem Zerfall ( of Yugoslavia )losbrechende kroatische Racheund Vernichtungsfeldzug gegen das pravoslaviche ( griechisch-orthodoxe) Serbentum gehoert zu den grausamsten Massenmordaktionen der Weltgeschichte: ..... --Purger 16:46, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Most muderous regime III

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=gvKVLcMVIuG&b=394929

"They started with one huge husky peasant who began singing an old historicalheroic song of the Serbs. They put his head on the table and as he continued to sing they slit his throat and then the next squad moved in to smash his skull. 'This is what you are all getting' an USTASA (Croatian Nazi) screamed. USTASE surrounded us. ..Then the slaughter began...Within a matter of minutes we stood in a lake of blood."

Ljubo Jadnak, Survivor, Yugoslavia

"This State, our country is only for Croatians, and not for anyone else. There are no ways and means which we Croatians will not use to make our country truly ours and to clean it of all Jews and orthodox Serbs. All those who came to our country 300 years ago must disappear. We do not hide this our intention."

Milovan Zanic, Minister of Justice, Croatia

---

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=gvKVLcMVIuG&b=395075

The crimes of the Ustasha documented by the Zagreb indictment included the murder of hundreds of specifically named Serbs, Gypsies, and Jews; the creation of the Jasenovac concentration camp, where hundreds of thousands of individuals were killed; and the following specific cases of barbarism:

1. tying families by their hands with wire, forcing them into a pit, and cracking their skulls with sledgehammers;

2. operating a crematorium at Jasenovac into which persons were flung alive;

3. herding Serbs into their Orthodox churches ... and then butchering them with knives;

4. medical experiments into the perseverance of human organisms;

5. slitting open the bellies of pregnant women;

6. drinking blood from the slashed throats of the victims;

7. inducing cannibalism among camp inmates;

8. mutilation of the living and the dead;

9. raping schoolgirls before their mothers;

10. catching infants on bayonets;

11. inventing new methods of torture;

12. throwing burning lime on the living in execution pits;

13. feeding food laced with caustic soda to starving children.38

The evidence against Artukovic also included, in addition to evidence about his role in the above activities of the Ustasha, various affidavits from witnesses who had been in a position to observe his activities during World War II.

Malaparte's book

C. Malaparte, Kaputt, page 266 Nortwestern University Press, Evanston, IL

A basket of oysters

While he spoke, I gazed at a wicker basket on the Poglawnik's desk. The lid was raised and the basket seemed to be filled with mussels, or shelled oysters - as they are occasionally displayed in the windows of Fortnum and Mason in Piccadilly in London. Casertano looked at me and winked, 'Would you like a nice oyster stew?'

'Are they Dalmatian oysters?' I asked the Poglawnik

Ante Pavelic removed the lid from the basket and revealed the mussels, the slimy and jelly-like mass, and he said smiling, with that tired good-natured smile of his,

'It is a present from my loyal ustashis. Twenty kilos of human eyes.'

On Curzio Malaparte Talk page I argued that this (and other) stories should not be taken as documentary but as work of fiction. Since the story above is widely known its presence in article here is IMHO useful but it should be clearly labeled as narrative. Pavel Vozenilek 01:01, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Fictions, cook-books, fitness, yoga are the book-shelvers classifications that might be seen in the book stores and libraries. The valid academic terms are: novels, dramas, tragedies, comedies, poems, short stories, essays, etc. About scholars - Sigmund Freud highly regarded Dostoyevsky's The Brothers Karamazov as a psychoanalytical study, Balsac's novels are regarded by French historians as social studies of the French society, Andric's The Bridge on the Drina is a scientific reference in the books of the world-renown historian W. H. McNeill (Europe, Ottoman Empire) and a part of the history curricula (University of Missoury, Kansas City Dr Carla Klausner: [[2]]). The same way Malaparte's Kaputt and The Skin are widely regarded as the WWII literary testimonies. As you might know, the testimonies that could be found in the Nuremberg Trial and in the Eichmann Trial (Tel Aviv, 1961) archives are the scientific, historic references - even though based on the words of common people.--Oesterling 14:17, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I am not arguing about beletristic value of the books or their impact or Freud or Dostoyevsky. Simply: a novel should not serve as documentary reference in encyclopedia article (which I see happening here). Pavel Vozenilek 02:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Overblown

Pavelic's regime was clearly not "the most murderous regime in the whole that time occupied Europe". In fact, Ustasha murders and crimes were nowhere near as organized as German or even Soviet/Allied ones. Most of the people comitting these crimes were uneducated thugs. Gestapo certainly had more organized methods of torture, while concentration camps in Germany took far more lives than those in Croatia.

Why did the above pro-Croat Ustasha supporter not have the courage to leave his name or username, before spouting his pro-Ustase rhetoric??

No courage, I guess, just like his fascist murderous countrymen, the Ustasha??? Brandubh Blathmac 15:13, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Clear to whom? To you?--Purger 16:41, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

And, as has already been said, literature and poetry have no place as sources of an encyclopedia article.

Who decided it and since?--Purger 16:41, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Roman Catholicism

Having had a private audience with the Pope during WWII when his state was slaughtering hundreds of thousands of non Catholic people, and given his own personal rescue by the Roman Catholic church after WW2 and the relationship between his political party and his state with the RC church, Ante Pavelić is certainly Catholic enough to be categorized as such in the categories listed at the end of the page.

To do otherwise is to be dishonest in every sense.

Brandubh Blathmac 02:57, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

NOTE: DEMIURGE REVISIONISM ON THE PROWL -- JUST LIKE WITH DOMESTIC TERRORISM IN USA; PRE-CODE MOVIES AND ROMAN CATHOLIC PRODUCTION CODE OF CENSORSHIP IN MOVIES IN 20TH CENTURY, ETC.!!

Brandubh Blathmac 02:57, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes he certainly falls into categories for 'roman catholic politicians', and 'war criminals' - he was certainly up there on the Allies' wanted list, although for obvious reasons never got to trial. Demiurge why are you removing these? I have no knowledge of BB's editing history or whether he/she is a sockpuppet, but these edits, and correcting syntax and spelling, were certainly not vandalism.Bengalski 13:50, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

How to describe the regime?

The latest edit now has it as 'semi national socialist/fascist' which is ungainly and confusing. What is a semi-nazi? Personally I would keep it simple and just go for the most general term - fascist, though if people feel we need to be more specific there is clerical fascist which fits them like a glove.Bengalski 16:11, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Conjecture

This is conjecture and as such has no place in Wikipedia. The fact that the author cannot cite definite numbers and uses generalisations: "close to one third Serbs, even if not more." weakens the text. For this reason alone it should be removed.

The extent of this campaign against the Serbs was a real genocide, because they aimed to exterminate a third of them, expel another third, and Catholicize another. The Ustaše succeeded in reaching their first goal - they exterminated close to one third Serbs, even if not more.

More fiction

What place has this discussion of literature and poetic descriptions of Ustashe activities got in a encyclopedic article about the leader of the Ustashe? If it belongs anywhere (which is quite questionable) it belongs under the Ustashe entry.

Utashe atrocities made a strong impression on literature and poetry. "Basket of Oysters", a chapter of Curzio Malaparte's novel Kaputt, depicted Ustashe's widespread practice of gouging out the eyes of Serbs. In Jama ("The Pit"), Ivan Goran Kovačić wrote of how Serbs were wrapped in barbed wire and dropped into pits. Other works inspired by the Ustashe were Oljača's Kozara and Svetina's Volčiči ("The Wolf Puppies").

---

What did Chetniks do???? So innocent ay....two sides to every story ...flip the coin.... I think more Croats died by Serbs, most is hidden in POV....look at Bosnia my friend...who did the mass killing there

Fiction

A lot that is written about Pavelic is fiction and propagnada. Yes he was a Nazi but more like a Nazi Puppet. He had little power. This guy just did as ordered by nazis. But wait a minute didnt most of Europe..wasnt just him. One has to remember the Ustashe and Ante Pavelic were a ""minority"" of Croats who fought alongside the Nazis. ""Most Croats"" and Tito himself fought against the Nazis. It hurts me when people label Croats and single them out ---but forget all the other countries who had nazi forces and in much bigger numbers. WW1--- WW2 was a dark time in history but the truth needs to be told and not hyped up by ignorance. ANTE PAVELIC was anti his own people ...he disliked the Dalmatian Coast (Croats too) and offered them to Italy...so i wouldnt say he was very Croat in any shape or form. Pavelic was just a puppet on a string...but so was most of Europe..including Italy France Hungary Estonia Serbia etc...

Yeah, it is always nice to have a good opinion about yourself. The problem emerges regularly whenever your wanderful self is not mirrored in the minds of other people the way you wished.--Purger 02:43, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Get real

..........stop blowing Serbian POV on this page............ half of what you say is untrue............Pavelic was a puppet...he had no power to do such things.....just propaganda and that has no room on wikipedia.... War is war...killings went on all sides...no good guys in war...wake up

EVERGREEN

Serbian Bodyguard

Why is there no mention of of the fact that Ante Pavelic had a Serbian bodyguard. This bodyguard was with him right up until Pavelic fled to Argentina. Some of the Ustashe troops where in fact Serbs by blood. These are known facts and should be mentioned. Source....some books i have read while living in Yugoslavia ...very unbias books as it was time of Yugoslvia. Title ...it was so long ago...but one might check with historians.

---

Also the Partizan football club in Belgrade was run for many years by former Croat President Franjo Tudjman...he was president when the club was founded in around 1945 and spent many years involved with the club.

---

Dig a little you never know what you can find hahaha

---

Ante pavelic was a kind man and his Ustashe army were at times Kind

Ante Pavelic was kind but nieve because he agreed to Italy if Hitler won the war the region of Istria and Dalmatia would be given to Italy. Even though Ustahes did Kill a lot of serbs it wasn't that much as the serbs clamied. Franjo Tudman had a look at how many Serbs were killed during the Second world war he got a total of 38,000. But the Ustashe army treated most allied prisoner with kindness. --Marbus2 5 11:13, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

LMAO, are you kidding? Sure....only 38,000 Serbs died, to bad they found Jasenovac to prove you wrong. C-c-c-c 04:21, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

First of all i read the artical and somewhere there it saids that there was a lack of Documented evdience to show how many serbs were killed by the Ustase. They say a estimate of 25,000 to 1,000,000. But ask yourself where did the estimates come from, Probley from the communist of Yugoslavia who won the war which was lead by Tito Brojz and we know how much propaganda the communist Yugoslavs have put on Croatia after World War 2 and onwards. --Marbus2 5 13:34, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Right, would you like to deny Holocaust for the record as well? And please, brush up on your English, or otherwise don't contribute. Thanks, -- C-c-c-c 20:05, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Revert warring

I see some anon editors have been engaged in revert-warring, to the point of removing the {{NPOV}} tag. I've no particular opinion on who's right or wrong here, but compromise needs to be reached.

fascist vs. Nazi - which is the more correct term and why? ✍

Just compare Italian fascists to the Ustashe

- Jews and Serbs in the war zone occupied by Italians were protected to a great extent; as per testimonies of the Jews and Serbs, Italian army was engaged in chasing the Ustashe bands when they entered the Italian zone.

Italians did not establish konzlagers in order to exterminate Jews, Serbs, and Gypsies nor they had it as their primary goal - Ustashe did it and were more ardent that Nazi Germans.

Pavelic's Independent State of Croatia mimicked the Nazy Germany and she run six larger konzlagers out of the 13 in the wartime Europe who were not established and run by Germans.

Conclusion - for the Ustashe and their regime Nazi is a more appropriate term than fascist--Purger 00:26, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I would use 'fascist', or more specifically 'clerical fascist'. The ustashe ideology was similar to in many respects, but differed from in others, both German Nazism and Italian Fascism. Fascism as it is generally used is the broader term - it can be used specifically to refer to the Italian variety, but also more widely for a range of related movements and positions. That is - the ustashe definitely can be filed under fascism (in the broad sense); Nazism is more debatable. Alternatively there is the more specific term clerical fascism which fits very well.Bengalski 01:59, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I gave some comparisons above to show that the Ustashe were close to the German Nazis. Also, 'Nazi' in this article is used as an attribute. Claiming that is a point of view is a nonsense. You could see, for example, that the world renown historian and the Oxford Universtity professor, A.J.P. Taylor, uses the term 'second German war' while reffering to the WWII. Nobody claimed ever that his term is not appropriate for the WWII.--Purger 12:34, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:MalaparteOysters.JPG - this link is simply broken and needs to be left out.✍

I can fix it--Purger 00:26, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

"These bestialities were even recorded" vs. "Some of the actions of the Ustase have been recorded" - "bestialities" is a POV word and should really be changed. Let the reader judge accordingly. ✍

Not a single word is a POV. An idea might be a POV. As to the bestialities - how could you describe slashing people's throats, smashing their heads by mallets, gouging their eyes and sending them as a prezent to their leader Pavelic, raping then killing girls? Is there a better, more descriptive word? Just read the entries above starting with 'Most murderous regime'. You'll find there a great number of the bestialities described in details. --Purger 00:26, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the only real argument against 'bestiality' here is it does a disservice to beasts. On the other hand, yes it's not really necessary - the actions speak for themselves.Bengalski 01:59, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

"inspired by the widespread practices of Ustashe's gouging out the eyes of Serbs; Kovačić's Jama (The Pit), where Ustashe tied Serbs with barbed wire and dropped them into pits; " - can we have a cite for that please?

I do agree - this is not needed to be pointed out. However, it can be read in 'Kozara' and 'Volcici'. Malaparte did not mention whose eyes he had seen during his meeting with Pavelic. Kovacic did not mention ethnicity of the blinded in hi poem 'Jama'--Purger 00:26, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Pretty much every reputable source (including Britannica, Great Soviet and Brockhaus) calls him a fascist leader. The Nazi thing seems a bit like OR – "Nazi" is mostly reserved for the NSDAP people themselves. See e.g. Ion Antonescu. --Elephantus 23:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I cannot accept this man's point of view without a grain of salt for finding him as a falsifier (see [[3]]). Also, the 'Nazi' term became an adjective used to mark the WWII war criminals. As per [[4]]

The Extradition of Nazi Criminals: Ryan, Artukovic, and Demjanjuk

by Henry Friedlander and Earlean M. McCarrick

Andrija Artukovic, the highest ranking Nazi criminal to find refuge in the United States, was born in 1899 in Austrian Herzegovina, which after World War I formed part of Yugoslavia. Trained as a lawyer, he participated in the prewar politics of Yugoslavia as a member of the extremist Ustasha, whose aim was the creation of an independent Croatia and thus the destruction of a unified Yugoslavia. During World War II,13 when the Ustasha assumed power in the Nazi puppet state of Croatia, Artukovic served as Minister of Internal Affairs. As such he was in charge of the police and paramilitary units that imposed the Ustasha system of terror. These forces established death camps where they murdered large numbers of men, women, and children including Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and Moslems. As the second highest ranking member of the Ustasha regime and as the man in charge of internal security, Artukovic was implicated in these crimes.--Purger 13:57, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

As per Merriam-Webster online dictionary [[5]]

Main Entry: Na·zi

Pronunciation: 'nät-sE, 'nat-

Function: noun

Etymology: German, by shortening & alteration from Nationalsozialist, from national national + Sozialist socialist

1 : a member of a German fascist party controlling Germany from 1933 to 1945 under Adolf Hitler

2 often not capitalized : one who resembles a German Nazi

- nazi adjective, often capitalized

So, as the second meaning, the word 'Nazi' is applicable within this article--Purger 17:23, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

To be more specific:

Britannica:

Pavelic, Ante, born July 14, 1889, Bradina, Bosnia, died Dec. 28, 1959, Madrid, Croatian fascist leader and revolutionist who headed a Croatian state subservient to Germany and Italy during World War II. ...

Great Soviet Encyclopedia

ПАВЕЛИЧ (Pavelić) Анте (14.7.1889, Брадина, – 28.12.1959, Мадрид), глава хорватской террористич. фаш. организации усташей, воен. преступник. ...

Pavelic Ante (14.7.1889, Bradina, – 28.12.1959, Madrid), head of the Croatian terrorist fascist organization Ustaše, war criminal. ...

Brockhaus

Pavelic, Ante, kroatischer Politiker, * Bradina (Herzegowina) 14. 7. 1889, + Madrid 28. 12. 1959; emigrierte 1929 nach Italien; gründete und leitete von dort aus, an den Ideen des italienischen Faschismus orientiert, die Ustascha...

--Elephantus 18:00, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

To be more specific, Britannica claims that Pavelic was 'revolutionist'? As much as Hitler was or maybe more? Very poor reference. Not a single serious history texbook ever references any encyclopedia. Brockhaus claims 'Pavelic, Ante, kroatischer Politiker'? All his life? So Bin Laden is a politician, nicht war? As to the term 'Nazi' and how to use it and when - it is the matter of living language: the vocabulary confirms it and there are examples of this term use.--Purger 12:01, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I have quoted what I think are reputable, representative reference works. Surely the fact that all of them call Pavelic a fascist and none of them calls him a Nazi has significance? "Revolutionist" - Pavelic certainly was one, because before he was installed in power in 1941 he had been a leader of what was a radical insurgent organization that proclamed its aim of overthrowing the Yugoslav state. He was also a politician (besides being a criminal and a mass murderer), just like Hitler, Stalin and Mao were politicians. --Elephantus 05:24, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

And there's this introduction from the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust by the Yad Vashem centre:

Pavelic, Ante (1889-1959), Leader of the fascist puppet state in Croatia from 1941-1945. Pavelic began his political career as a member of the Croatian Justice Party. ...

--Elephantus 11:31, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Enough! I do not want to deal with people who are expsed as falsifiers. You are one of them! Use of the English language adjective 'Nazi' has nothing to do with other points of view about this man. Also, I could add at least four far more reputable sources of information about Pavelic. Encyclopaedias are not strong references at all!--Purger 12:20, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I've requested semi-protection for this page. Let's see what happens. But please, can we resolve this here rather than engaging in revert wars? - Ali-oops^✍ 14:49, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

• Page has actually been fully-protected now - Ali-oops^✍ 16:27, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Unprotect?

A request has been made that this article be unprotected. Is it ready for unprotection? I don't see a lot of talking going on over the past few days, but then it was a weekend. · Katefan0 ^(scribble) 23:32, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Please, do not unprotect the page, because the editor in question is involved in several edit wars across a number of articles related to Croatia. Otherwise, this page will again see a sudden surge in number of "new editors" and anonymous IPs whose only "contribution" to Wikipedia is reverting to one POV page version. See contributions of user:SrbIzLike, user:64.18.16.251, user:Petrinja, user:Purger etc. (in all likelyhood all sockpuppets). It suffices to check their "user contributions" to realize that every page where "they" are operating on has turned into a nightmare for Croatian contributors. Any constructive work has been brought to a standstill as our efforts there have been reduced to an attempt to sustain the vandalism of a large number of new editors familiar with 3RR who keep appearing out of nowhere sharing the predilection for the same pages on Wikipedia. EurowikiJ 10:26, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

This claim about sockpupets is frivolous and offensive. Among those who are reverting and claiming POV not substantiating the claim is EurowikiJ. This article is written almost solely by me!--64.18.16.251 12:14, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

You??? All the article??? Who are you??? Teasing me or EurowikiJ?--Purger 12:42, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Just you. A serious and a knowleable man is not epected to waste his time explaining meanings of the English language words — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.18.16.251 (talk • contribs)

After being dormant for 4 days User:64.18.16.251 has resurfaced to "tease" the suspected sockpuppeteer User:Purger. Though annoying, even sockpuppetry can be occasionaly hillarious. EurowikiJ 13:07, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, since the anons and socks don't seem interested in discussing the matters under dispute, I'll reduce the protection to a semiprotect. That way good faith editors can still edit. · Katefan0 ^(scribble) 15:07, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

What a sensible decision. I can't wait for the "good faith editors" to resume their "editing". EurowikiJ 15:12, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

This is a wiki. Pages can't stay protected forever, particularly when there's no discussion toward resolving the disputes that caused the protection in the first place. I'd rather just block bad actors and let the rest of us get on with building an encyclopedia. · Katefan0 ^(scribble) 15:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of which... a message to Purger: Don't remove NPOV dispute templates unless the dispute is actually resolved, or there is a consensus on the talk page to remove it regardless. And especially don't use edit summaries that don't reflect what you actually did to the article; you removed a link, AND you removed the NPOV template. Be more precise next time, please. · Katefan0 ^(scribble) 19:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

If it's removed once more without consensus, that editor will be blocked. · Katefan0 ^(scribble) 16:27, 24 May 2006 (UTC)