Talk:Jesse Macbeth

unsigned comments

--Useful for at least the moment, as I had no idea what the story was all about until I read this page.

-- There is no reason for this article to be deleted. His tale is now part of the historical record, and as the debate about Iraq continues people will want to reference the story of Jesse Macbeth. Keep the article.

this entire article should be deleted.

-- I second the deletion notice. This might be titillating in the short term, but is of zero long-term relevance. Just a moron with a camera and a few amatures who are learning a painful lession in fact-checking.

~~MacBeth resigned from his membership with IVAW this morning, and they are launching an investigation on to whether or not he is who he said he was.

Further, peacefilms.org has removed the film due to the criticism, and proof of fradulent claims by MacBeth.

Items posted to wikipedia are supposed to vbe verifiable. If there is a statement from Macbeth or IVAW about a resignation, then it would be proper to include it. But until then, it is not verifiable. But I'll update the article to reflect that the video was removed. Bugmuncher 19:28, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Announcement about IVAW.[1]

~~Today, the Army ran a check on Mr. MacBeth's credentials. It turns out that Mr. MacBeth has NO Army service record. Anywhere. Period. This is a direct quote given to me by Army spokesman Mr. Boyce: "Initial research by the U.S. Army Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg shows no Soldier with the name of Jesse Macbeth having ever been assigned to the Special Forces or the Army Rangers -- which are, in fact, two separate disciplines. This appears to be some sort of hoax. No Soldier by that name at Fort Lewis to our knowledge, in the past, either. Of course, the line about "go into the Army or go to jail" is vintage TV script not heard since the 1960s. There are also numerous wear and appearance issues with the Soldier's uniform -- a mix of foreign uniforms with the sleeves rolled up like a Marine and a badly floppy tan beret worn like a pastry chef. Of course, the allegations of war crimes are vague, as are the awards the Soldier allegedly received."[2]

(The Army spokesman quote says he hasn't been assigned to the Special Forces or Army Rangers - it says nothing at all about his whether he was in the army. The "no army service record" is an inference by the writer of Just Citizens. Bugmuncher 19:28, 23 May 2006 (UTC))[reply]

[comment on NPOV dispute moved to NPOV dispute section]

signed comments

I believe the article is relevant. I attempted to maintain NPOV as I wrote it. Any NPOV experts are welcome to comment. Also, note that the warrant for Macbeth's arrest in Washington State is not listed, because it is not germane to his comments in the video. Bugmuncher 17:40, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

this article should not be deleted even though it appears that the video is fraudelent, at some future point when someone makes a reference to jessie macbeth, this article will be here for those who might have missed the hubbub, removing it would be like removing an article about the Piltdown man User:Taucetiman

Two points. First, the Wiki entry states: The video was removed from the site 23 May, 2006 following questions regarding the truthfullness of the allegations and whether Macbeth had ever been an Army Ranger. yet I can find no notice or corroboration of this on either the peacefilms web site, or the peppersprayproductions web site, nor have I read anything to this effect by IVAW or anywhere else (except as allegations on right-wing blogs). Can you even substantiate this claim? An alternative explanation would be the demand for the video exceeded the bandwidth of the peacefilms web site and it was temporarily disabled, or it may have been overwhelmed due to a DoS attack. Second, the entry states: A narrator in the video says that Macbeth "...served in Iraq for 16 months before being wounded..." The war began on 20 March 2003. The Eastern Arizona Courier reported on 3 November 2003 that Jesse MacBeth had returned 2 and a half months prior - roughly in late August of 2003, after sustaining a back injury, making such a deployment about five months long[3]. There's really no discrepancy at all with these facts. The U.S. did not suddenly station 250,000 troops in Iraq on March 20th. The U.S. has had troops stationed in countries and bases around Iraq for well over a decade, enforcing the illegally imposed "no-fly" zones during Clinton/Gore, and before Bush 43s war on Iraq began. The troop buildup for the war took place over many, many months. In fact, Macbeth most likely would have been deployed to Iraq well before March 20, even as early as April or May of 2002. The U.S. also had covert operations teams operating inside Iraq well before March 20, 2003. Macbeth needs to clarify the 16 months statement, but it in no way discredits him at this time. --204.96.170.186 05:27, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't add the information about why the video was removed (that was someone else), but the maintainer of peacefilms.org was actively communicating with several bloggers about the issue. The last thing I heard was that it was removed by the peacefilms.org pending an investigation by Iraq Veterans Against the War. But you are correct, something like this should be cited. I will remove it until something verifiable develops.

Also note that the article is not about discrediting Macbeth - It is supposed to be a presentation of verifiable facts that allows readers to make their own decisions about him. You are correct that Macbeth should be given the opportunity to clarify his statements. Many people are waiting for this clarification.

DEFINITELY needs to stay up, for the simple reason that many people will continue to see the video as it's circulated around the internet and there needs to be a definitive source exposing it as a fake. Otherwise people will believe this propaganda.--Ossanha 13:14, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

POV check

Sommerfeld placed the article in POV check after I suggested NPOV dispute might not be as appropriate. Currently the main concern is that most of the article came from me. I am also personally concerned that I could have made more citations; if I find other things to cite, I will add them later. Bugmuncher 22:41, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Experts suggest? Come on... see Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words. I realize that "Experts suggest" is a potentially misleading phrase, however when military members, both current and former unanimously agree that his uniform is completely wrong and not even possible for someone of his age and service dates, it's easy to establish that his uniform is a complete forgery. The photograph that's panned over in the video is typical of both a DA photo (for use in promotion boards) and to mark special occasions (specifically entering Basic Training and just prior to deployment to a combat zone). A basic trainee would not have on a beret of any type. A Ranger deploying for combat would not have his uniform so horribly incorrect and poor-looking. It's not just my opnion. It's not just the opinion of the thousands of soldiers and other veterans saying this, it's ILLEGAL for him to appear in such a manner. Research Army Regulation 670-1 if you don't believe me. While I could type all that out, it's just easier to round off that point of the article by saying that "Experts"(The entire military community) "suggest" (loudly declare).EvilCouch 06:53, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not saying that it's a weaselly conclusion. I am saying it is a generality, which weakens the article, which is not in anyone's interest. I have already downloaded Regulation 670-1 - and I know it's huge... but I can't even use it to back up all of the things that are wrong with his uniform. (it says that both metal and cloth insignia are permissible, and doesn't say anything about Rangers and metal insignias. Also I don't know how the colloquialisms match up... "combat patch" doesn't show up anywhere in the document.

Your help in making the article as specific as possible is appreciated. Bugmuncher 08:14, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there's no actual regulation specifically prohibiting the general wear of pin-on rank. However, in any Airborne unit, it's very much frowned upon. I'm trying to locate the AR that refers to Airborne operations. The reason is because any hard or sharp objects have to be removed or padded prior to jumping. This includes fixed blade knives that are not in a hard metal or plastic sheath, pin-on rank, weapons (they go into a M-1950 weapons case), etc. So, while someone could technically wear pin-on rank, they would would be strongly encouraged (through pain and sweat) by their chain of command to change to sew-on rank. When I was in Battalion, Rangers were generally given about a week after a promotion to get rank sown on. Past that, they were just begging for extra physical training. If you have a question about the discrepancy between how badges are typically referred to and their official name, just ask. If I don't know, I'll probably know where to find it. In the case of "combat patch" it is in section 28-17 of AR 670-1, under "Shoulder sleeve insignia-former wartime service". With as wordy a name as that, it's no wonder most people just call it a "combat patch". Have fun. EvilCouch 12:15, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Bugmuncher 14:56, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV dispute

Now that the neutrality flag has been added, I welcome comments on what additional information I should have included or cited. The article does not jump to conclusions about Macbeth. Bugmuncher 19:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think Bugmuncher has done a fair job maintaining nuetrality, but I would like to see the page reviewed and edited by more authors before the neutrality flag is removed. When it was added, the entire article had been written solely by one author. Wikipedia-style neutrality will naturally develop with the input of further authors.

Perhaps a POV check flag may have been more appropriate, given that nobody is disputing neutrality. No worries; i just practice NPOV every day in my real job, and I kinda wish my first attempt at an entry in a few years might not have been disputed so quickly. Bugmuncher 20:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That seems like a more reasonable template to describe the current state of the article. Given no specific POV complaints in the talk page as of a couple minutes ago, I made the change. --Sommerfeld 22:25, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Free to Camp Coalition

I've added information stating that Free to Camp Coalition is a anarchist group. Before people jump all over the statement as been NPOV, I will include two sites for people to view first. According to this site, the group is an anarachist group.[3] Also, you can view the groups own website.[4] Lokifer 04:57, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Free to Camp website does not mention anarchy. The Phoenix Anarchist Group having an annotated link to Free to Camp doesn't necessarily make Free to Camp an anarchist group. Do you think an anarchist group would present a 1200-signature petition to the Tempe City Council?

I think it's a bit of a stretch to call them an anarchist group without knowing more. Bugmuncher 05:26, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Right Wing Blog setup

I checked the comments on the site just hours before it got shut down. I would say about over 90% of those comments were from right wing blogists all commenting on the irregularities of the uniform. Could it be possible this was one elaborate manufactored scam to discredit the anti-war movement. Remember the Killian Documents...

botomous

If you have anything verifiable about your supposition to post, please add it to the article. Bugmuncher 05:26, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, ... this guy has apparently been active in the anti-war movement for quite some time. Just because it discredits the doesn't mean the right-wing is behind it. You sound like the UFO nuts that claim that anyone who tries to discredit them are part of the conspiracy.

Keebler

Don't be fooled: "Keebler" obviously refers to the "Keebler Elves" who make cookies in the magical Keebler Elf Tree. Aliens were often refered to as "Elves" in ancient myths; furthermore, cookies are used by the NSA to track all computer activity. Clearly "Keebler" is an agent of the vast crypto-fascist/Alien conspiracy. The truth is out there.

Arg! You found me out! Time to change my nick again... --Keebler71 19:33, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Votes for Deletion

I nominate this article for deletion. It's not reported on the news, it's not a big deal at all. You can't make a wikipedia article for every internet hoax. You can list this under some article talking about internet hoaxes. But it does not deserve it's own internet article. Blog infighting it was not worthy of space on wikipedia.

This hoax is now a historical fact. It did occur. Just because it could be used to discredit a small segment of the anti-war movement doesn't justify sweeping it under the rug. More importantly, because it is an internet hoax it will undoubtedly resurface at some later time. The content needs to be here so that when it does resurface, the hoax has already been documented.