User talk:213.188.227.119

RfC:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment#Commercial_Suppliers

Commercial suppliers - my two cents

Two questions: who decides, which companies should be added and which not? Is it your decision, the companies decision? Where is the gap between commerciality and information?

Everyone can add links, indeed, chemical suppliers can add their links if they want, as long as it is in the suppliers section, see also section or external link section. If they try to link to much to the front of the page, they will 'punished' by the wikipedia community, which will revert this vandalism (I will!). --Dirk Beetstra 01:46, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why is the commercial information in front of the scientific one (literature and external links!).

I concurr, this could be in another order, a good subject for a debate. --Dirk Beetstra 01:46, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I thought about this, I will move supplier sections to the bottom of the list on pages that I edit (if I don't forget or get carried away by other edits I am working on). --Dirk Beetstra 08:26, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My point is, if for example "Sigma-Aldrich Marketing" recognizes the value of Wikipedia as a "free markting tool" (please check out http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Aldrich+Marketing%22&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:de-DE:official ) how can you stop them? Then they will add their chemfiles and the aldrich chimica acta articles throughout the whole wikipedia... Shall I contact them? Do you really want me to contact Aldrich?

Yes, they are an invaluable source of information, may I suggest you also contact Strem, Acros, Lancaster, .. --Dirk Beetstra 01:46, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Next, there is a trend that companies use spam links to expand their business. I will give you an example: http://www.combichemistry.com/ This site links: Aurora Fine Chemicals, Exclusive Chemistry, ChemSuppliers.org Check out "chemsuppliers.org": Try to search "benzene". Then try the same search at www.exchemistry.com .

Sorry, I don't get the point of this. I will buy chemicals from suppliers that don't spam me. They are genuine, if they spam me, their catalogue will be the last I will look into. --Dirk Beetstra 01:46, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And which sites have already been linked in wikipedia?

well, not all, so .. not enough? --Dirk Beetstra 01:46, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have deleted "chemsuppliers.org"...

your choice. --Dirk Beetstra 01:46, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As a chemist, I am able to find suppliers in chmoogle and chemexper. I am able to find them in scifinder. Sorry, I do not want to read 100 supplier links in front of literature citations and external links. And the link to the PDF from acros (at Suzuki) is absolutely worthless.

Please, feel free to make better links. And to put the suppliers section to the end, I do concur with that, see above. --Dirk Beetstra 01:46, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, let me clarify, what I meant was, that when the car-brand Suzuki would put it's link in pages about the chemical Suzuki coupling, that would be considered spam, they will be removed (I will). --Dirk Beetstra 08:26, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Where is a general wikipedia guideline about commercial information? Do we have specific rules here in the chemistry section? I thought, wikipedia does not contain advertising... Now I recognize, it even publishes FREE advertising.

The Dutch law (OK, that is the one I know, but I guess other are the same) does NOT recognize the use of more than one brand-name as commercial, if it is only one, it will be called commercial. If a) chemical suppliers delete information of other suppliers, it will be reverted and called 'vandalism' (and complete IP-ranges have been blocked for vandalism, e.g. in American Elections), and if there are more than one supplier listed, I don't call it commercial anymore, it is info. --Dirk Beetstra 01:46, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Or is someone of you paid by Acros or other suppliers? How sure can I be, that wikipedia is neutral and publishes a valuable selection?

You can't be, but it is decided by the people editing pages. --Dirk Beetstra 01:46, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Addition, how can I be sure that chmoogle and chemexper are neutral and publish valuable selection. As with all, you are the judge of that. --Dirk Beetstra 08:26, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have suggested at RFC the following: please link to a central page of META Directories (chmoogle, chemexper). Specific chemicals may link to the list of meta directories and NOT to single companies. In my point of view, that is a valuable suggestion, which already functions for ISBNs! Make it also functions for CAS-Numbers! This would make the whole thing easier!

For example CAS: 1076-43-3: http://newsearchch.chemexper.com/cheminfo/servlet/org.dbcreator.MainServlet?searchValue=1076-43-3&searchTemplate=rn.value%3D%3F+elsor+iupac.value%3D%3F+elsor+mf.value%3D%3F+elsor+entry.catalogID%3D%3F+elsor+%28iupac.value%3D%7E%3F+or+catalog.description%3D%7E%3F%29&action=PowerSearch&format=ccd&target=structure&options=brandqtyoffer&history=on

Please implement such a standard!

You've got a point there. Maybe time to implement some new templates. --Dirk Beetstra 01:46, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Best regards 213.188.227.119

Ps: I will think about opening an account. Even with user account, I would be anonymous. Such as "V8rik".

Yes, is true, but with an IP people are not sure if you is always the same you, for all I know, this is a changing IP address, and there are more people using it. I only guess that I am addressing one person on this talk-page of 213.188.227.119. --Dirk Beetstra 01:46, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Addition, I also mentioned that already, you could use an avatar. But now I also must assume that you always use 213.188.227.119 as your IP, you could also be using more than one IP. Of course that would still be possible (when you choose to be a Sock puppet) but it is general policy not to have more than one account. But again .. it is your own choice. --Dirk Beetstra 08:26, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lets see if we can adopt the following policies:

links to commercial suppliers when it contains actual and specific technical data
in Wiki external links are listed before the References, should keep it that way
should be more than one, 4 is a lot given the consolidation in this market
I prefer to link to company safety datasheet instead of presenting safety data on Wiki itself because that comes with a lot of responsibility (like giving medical advice on Wiki)

Also, there is nothing wrong with being semi-anonymous like myself (I would bore you with my life story) but a nick name would be nice, how about NoCommercialPlugsPlease!! , V8rik 16:38, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Remarks on suppliers

Dear unknown, a.k.a. 213.188.227.119.

I disagree with the point you take on several talk pages about the external links in the description of chemicals. They provide extra information, and are just what they are, external links. It indeed becomes annoying if a carbrand would replace all the occassions where the brandname is mentioned with a link to it's homepage, but that would be regarded as vandalism, and would be reverted (as a chemist I would be very, very annoyed if Suzuki started to do that). A link to the brand in the external links, would be left alone. Indeed, on some topics the list would become quite long, but well, this is supposed to be a source of information, so why not find all the car-brands in an encyclopedia.

By the way, it is common use to put your contributions at the bottom of the talk-page and to sign them. Also, may I ask you to start a personal account, it is nice to know who you are talking to (if you want, you can use an avatar). Cheers! --Dirk Beetstra 17:47, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Dirk Beetstra, I have made identical comments on the Talk:2-Iodoxybenzoic_acid page V8rik 17:53, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

- I also agree with Dirk. Wikipedia is a source of information, and many readers of chemical articles may want to know where things come from. At WP:Chem we have an unofficial policy of not allowing a single supplier to post, we aim to have at least four, and these are ideally to be posted by the article editor. Spamming is a problem, but I don't regard it as a major one - if it gets out of control then we will have to reconsider our policy. Walkerma 06:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Neutrality of Wikipedia chemistry section

I have to thank you for your answers Dirk. I am sure, that no person is really bothering about the neutrality of Wikipedia. I still believe, the RfC is needed and it is needed outside of WikiChem.

I have contacted Dr. Gubernator at emolecules and I know Dr. Patiny (chemexper).

Let me be more concrete: chmoogle (renamed in emoleculs) offers a fast search engine for many millions of structures and chemexper now covers products of more than 700 suppliers.

For example emolecules: - We load all chemical databases that we can find or that are sent to us. In addition to the large government databases, we currently have 160 commercial vendors covered. We update the catalogs as we receive them. - We exclude "virtual" compounds when they can be recognized as such. - We exclude constitutional isomers that were generated from real compounds.

Some aims and scopes of chemexper: http://www.chemexper.com/ccd/

As many other catalogues will be developed, a automated linking page (already existing for ISBNs) will be the best solution. You may then add more catalogues. But the other way round, the listing of singly suppliers in wikipedia articles is not a valuable suggestion. I am sure, that a partly automated query for CAS-Numbers will also affect the usability of wikipedia.

We are partly competitors, but we love chemistry. Wikipedia is user-contributed (articles and sponsoring). If companies spend no money in online marketing, just installing their links in Wikipedia, only one site will survive: Wikipedia. I am not interested in specific pages such as chemexper.com or chemie.de and so on, but I think, that both models (commercial and non-commercial) have their own rules and may co-exist.

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