Talk:Use of child suicide bombers by Palestinian militant groups

To Moshe

plz discuss changes in here before you rv my work. More edits are coming to clean the propaganda from this article.--Thameen 20:35, 29 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Zionist Propaganda

Although there are rare cases of the use of minors in the Palestine/Israeli conflict. And I'm against that of course.

But this article was written in its totality in a zionist propaganda tone to emphasize the zionist myth the Palestinians send their kids to death (and hense no problem the the Israeli ocuupation army killed around 4000 kids in Palestine).

1. The article was written with a pre-assumed notion that the use of kids by Palestinians is a fact and is wide spead.

2. The article stated what the IDF (the Israeli Army) claimed as a fact. Ignoring the fact that some of the IDF reports are fabrications or exageration as part of it propaganda war against the Palestinians.

3. There is lack of reference in many paragraphs.

4. The article failed to illustrate the miserable life the kids live due to occupation.

5. The article failed to mention the targetting of kids by the IDF and the hundreds of kids who were killed by the IDF.

Misc

I am aware that sending children over minefields was a common tactic used by the Iranians during the Iran-Iraq war (and I added that to the article), but I do not recall ever hearing of this tactic being employed by the Iraqi side. Can someone provide a cite or at least vouch for the authenticity of this claim? Perhaps some of this stuff would be best moved to Military use of children, anyway. Everyking 19:58, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

All links to statements from IDF website are currently broken since the website moved to a new server.

"The IDF does not.. point out..."

"The IDF does not, however, point out that since the beginning of the conflict:

The IDF has killed 550 children in the Palestinian territories during the intifada, compared to only 106 Israeli children killed by Palestinians. The ratio of wounded children is about 10 to 1.
They had also had arrested over 2,000 children by June 2003 alone.
Children in IDF custody report abuses (beatings, sleep deprivation, and humiliation such as being forced to strip naked, derogatory language, being forced to perform a variety of demeaning actions, etc) and said they were treated as adult Palestinians; this is backed up by numerous articles from Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. "

Rei: This information may be true...i am not commenting on its truth. Where does this paragraph contain any information regarding child suicide bomber the subject of our article? it appears to be here for the purpose of "we said one thing that appears 'complimentary' to Israel, we must say something that does not appear so". that is not informative. this tit-for-tat behavior. 550 vs 106 dead? that is 656 too many. this is is keeping score in dead children. The desire to engage in these two behaviors are two of the reasons that I am so reluctant to engage in dialogue with others at wikipedia. 209.135.35.83 19:11, 10 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Wait... so are you trying to say that it is irrelevant that children are being killed, arrested, and tortured to whether they are being convinced to take part in suicide bombing? That would be like having an article on suicide bombing itself and not going into anything about the Intifada. Do you not acknowledge this?

Every act takes place in the context of prior actions, and expected results. It may or may not be relevant. this article is not about the Intifada, it is about a particular tactic used by Intifada groups (and perhaps others). motivational information may be particular to each conflict or even each case. best discussed for each conflict of case rather than in the definitional article. 209.135.35.83 13:08, 11 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

furthermore the article seems over concentrated on Palestinian child suicide bombers. a name change might be in order, or perhaps a separate page.

I'm sorry to hear that you're reluctant to enter into a dialog, but if you refuse to enter into a dialog and try and push through whatever you want through reverting every 60 seconds (as you were doing over in Israel), it doesn't play well with the other users. Rei 22:09, 10 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

you did not respond to my concerns regarding "dialog" at wikipedia, rather you chose to ignore or respond to a different item. this is another concern i have regarding dialog here....it rolls from one subject to another with ever resolving an item...oh...i can't support my position, let me talk of something else. an example in Talk:Israel: one subject was Islam and democracy. SO a person tried to change the subject to Muslims and democracy...very different, as can be seen by analogy between the Catholic Church and divorce vs American Catholics and divorce. tit-for-tat, score-keeping, fleeing the subject are behaviors indicative of an interest in producing a valuable encyclopedia. 209.135.35.83 13:08, 11 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but not every word generally gets a response. You really need to have a lot more patience if you're going to fit in here. If something wasn't responded to, and you want it to be responded to, just ask again. Are you referring to the issue of "tit for tat"? That's also known as "balance". Both sides of an issue get to make their points, so long as they're on topic. The causes *are* on-topic. The vast majority of this article is from the pro-Israel side. I'm fine with that - child suicide bombings *are* a horrible thing, and almost everyone on the pro-Palestine side will agree with that. Consequently, I don't try and remove much of anything bad being written about them. However, to ignore the causes - the only thing that I ask be addressed in this article - would be outright foolish. The causes of children being willing to become suicide bombers or otherwise take part in violence is about as relevant to the subject of child suicide bombings as is physically possible. *And*, the pro-Israel side already presented *its* view of the causes (paying off children, indoctrination, etc). This is the only fair, balanced response. I will not ask for much on this article; but I will insist on this. The causes are critical, and especially when one side gets to present their viewpoint about the causes, the other side must be able to as well. Rei 17:04, 11 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand what the IDF's abuse of Palestinian Children has to do with Child Suicide Bombers. It's OK to have an article about IDF's treatment of Palestinian children, but this is not that article. Is there any evidence that Child Suicide Bombers kill because they avenge specifically palestinian children rather then Palestinians in general, let alone all other concievable reasons? Unless such data is added to link these things, I say the IDF's treatment of Palestinian children does not belong here. Omer

(no response regarding the Iran/Iraq and Africa material moved to Military use of children....assumed that there there is no issue here.)

furthermore the article seems over concentrated on Palestinian child suicide bombers. a name change might be in order, or perhaps a separate page. 209.135.35.83 17:32, 11 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

I'll second that. Rei 20:04, 11 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to the move the Iran/Iraq and Africa items to Military use of children.

" is not about the subject of the article

As Everyking "said" (only about one, but the prinicple applies to both) above these dont belong here either....different subject matter:

Iraq

During the Iraq-Iran War (1980 - 1988), Iran was accused of using children to clear minefields by having them run in front of the soldiers.

this is stupid

--Thameen 14:56, 3 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Africa

The use of children as warriors in civil wars and tribal conflicts is vast and common.

I would question the need for this article. Might it not be better to put its content in the Suicide Bomber article or, if it's only going to be about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, under that? That way, the context is already there. Skittle, 2 November

Child suicide bomber = child abuse ?

Apart from the general problem of suicide bombing, many consider the exploition of children by brainwashing for fataly dangerous activitie as a form of child abuse. MathKnight 13:35, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Let's keep the pop psychoanalysis out of the article. Also the comment about child abuse sounds puerile. Is there a point being made? Did anyone suggest that killing children is good for them? --Zero 23:31, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It is clear that the use of children as suicide bomber is not disturbing as equally as using adults. Of course, the results of both suicide bombing are terrible, but while an adult is aware of his action, a child - in most cases - is not. Children are easy to influence and there is a serious case of explotatin here - which may harm the child's health (and probably kill him). This harms the children's right and thefore constitute a child abuse. Using children as combatants or suicide bombers is considered a war crime. Therefore, the issue that a child performs the suicide bombing is itself very disturbing (that is why Hussam Abdo's picture caught world attention) and it should be mentioned in the article. MathKnight 09:43, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thank you, Zero. -- Viajero 10:51, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Apart from the general problem of suicide bombing, many consider the exploitation of children as a war crime and violation of children's rights. Some even consider this exploitation as a form of child abuse.

See also explaination above. MathKnight 09:16, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Viajero, don't you consider exploitation as some sort of abuse? A specially when the result of the exploitation can be a dead child? Secondly, as you can see - there are indeed people who consider the exploitation of kids for suicide bombings as a form of abuse. Thirdly, I think it well help to clear issues if you say what "abuse" include according to your views. MathKnight 10:56, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Let's not commit reader-abuse by telling them they can't form their own value judgements and labels for child suicide bombings. --Zero 17:18, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Well, you can't deny that using a child as suicide bomber is more disturbing than using an adult. There are two aspect of the problems,

The suicide bombing.
The exploitation of child, to an action that harms the child welfare and health.

The readers can form their own values, and saying that many people regard the child bombers as kind of abuse (sending a child to die) doesn't "abuse" the reader's value. They can judge from themselves it child abuse is moral act or not. MathKnight 20:38, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Recent edits (Oct 03, 2004)

Did the 3 kids in Netzarim were sent by Hamas?

Reference from the Shin Bet report:

בלילה שבין ה – 23 ל- 24 אפריל 2002 ניסו שלושה ילדים פלסטינים, תלמידי בית ספר מעזה, לחדור לישוב נצרים על מנת לבצע פיגוע התאבדות בישוב. השלושה הם אסמעיל צבח אברהים אבו נדא בן 12, איל עאזי מצטפא חמארנה בן 13 ויוסף באסם יוסף זקות בן 14. השלושה נורו על ידי כוח צה"ל בשעה שניסו לחדור לישוב. באתר האינטרנט של תנועת החמאס פורסם ב – 24 אפריל 2002 כי השלושה אשר נשלחו על ידי החמא"ס, השתייכו למסגד בשכונת שיח' רדואן בעזה, וכי באמצעות פעילויותיהם המיוחדות הצליחו להרכיב מקרבם חולייה והחליטו לנהל ג'האד נגד היהודים. הנערים השאירו למשפחותיהם צוואות בהן הדגישו את רצונם במות קדושים והוציאו לפועל את החלטתם. על אחת הגופות נמצאו גרזן ומגזרי תיל לחיתוך הגדר.

Translation:

In the night between the 23rd and 24th of April 2002, three Palestinian childrem, Gaza school pupils, to infilitrate to Netzarim settlement in order to commit suicide attack. The three were: Ibrahim Abu Nada (12), Ill Azi Mustafa Hamarna (13) and Yosef Basem Yosef Zakut (14). The three were shot by IDF force while attempting to infilitrate the settlement. The Hamas website published on April 24, 2004, that the three - which were sent by Hamas - were belonged to a mosque in Sheikh Raduan neigbourhood in Gaza, and via their special activities they succeeded in composing a cell among them and decided to wage a Jihad against the Jews. The children left the families last wills in whom they emphasysed their will in "Shuada" (martyrdom's death) and executed their decision. An axe and wire-cutters were found over one of the bodies.

If someone claim otherwise, please provide proper citation. MathKnight 22:04, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

- Ok, The problem ther is that the Hamas website was Not Promoting the Childrens deaths, as that wonderful piece of israeli propaganda suggests, rather they were condemning it, and it was back on the old Hamas Webisite in 2002.
- Now, Considering I cannot go back in time to April 24 this year and get that Page, and as it's no longer apparent on either Arabic or English versions of their Sites, I can't prove it, but on that date in the archive it is not there.
- I can show you the BBC Report of the event at the time of the childrens deaths, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1948502.stm. The Boys themselves, appear to have been recruited by Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade.

- You want more?

Yes. Hamas reaction may be interperated as an attempt to clean itself from the involvement in this affair. This report from ABC News claimed that no Palestinian group claimed responsibility for the usage of children. Here, a "Gazan source" blame the send on Islamic Jihad, which also refused to accept responsibility. MathKnight 23:41, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

So, considering there is nothing but scant evidence either way, why do you persist in it's propagation? --Is Mise le Méas, Irishpunktom 17:04, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

Did the Shabak report count stone-throwing as "terrorist attacks"?

Reading the report, no. In the begining, the report devided the terrorist attacks into 3 types: suicide bombing, shooting attacks and Qassam rocket attacks. Since the phenomana of stone throwing is vast and under reported by most media - about 300 kids who throwed stone is very very very low number, far beyond reason and amount of pictures depicting childrem throwing stones. Therefore, the commant: However Shabak include rock-throwing as a form of terrorism was removed. MathKnight

Use of the word "terrorism"

Hey guys! I have noted and removed the word terrorism several times here, as it carries heavy connotations and undermines NPOV in this case. I am sure that this conversation has happened many times before, and there is an unresolved wiki policy being formulated on the matter.. For here and now, could we use alternate language that conveys the disgusting practices of targeting civilians? Otherwise, I hope that those who use the term are sufficiently clear-minded to define Israeli war crimes against the Palestinian civilian population (e.g., Collective punishment) as terrorism. Tarek 21:38, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I know there is a general problem of using the term "terrorism" because "one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter" stuff. But if we define terrorism as

a deliberate targeting of civilians (i.e. intensionaly trying to kill civilians) in pursuit of a religious\national\political goal

then there should be no POV problem, such the definition regarding the tactics and not the motives. MathKnight 22:22, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

By that definition, of course, the state-sanctioned collective punishment (punishing Palestinian families or cities for the militant activity of one member) is also terrorism.. I think we are doing a decent job of describing what's happening while avoiding such a loaded and hijacked term.. Tarek 00:52, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Tag

Factual Accuracy Dispute = A living person can not be a suicide Bomber.
NPOV = Completely israeli Centric.

Tag removed.

Simple reason: the term include also people who tried to commit a suicide bombing but failed.
The article gives the POV of both sides in the begining and is based on various sources.

MathKnight 17:30, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The term suicide bomber is used to descrive someone who has killed themself, using a bomb, so as to kill others. A living person, thus can not be a Suicide Bomber. --Irishpunktom\^talk 22:11, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

Why would failed suicide bombers not be suicide bombers? Is there something that supports your contention? Jayjg ^(talk) 22:29, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

A bomber is someone, or something, that bombs. That which does not bomb is not a bomber. --Irishpunktom\^talk 11:14, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

It is ridiculous and redundant to change any title in this issue to "suicide bombers and would-be suicide bombers". Any reasonable reader can deduce that article on suicide bombers phenomena disscuss both suicide bombers that managed to blow themselves up on people and suicide bombers who failed to do so. We don't have to treat our readers as stupid, and therefore that tag is unneccesary and unjustified. Your quarrel is about semantics, not about the facts, so the "factual dispute" tag is out of place here. MathKnight 11:18, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

June 15 arrest of 4 child suicide bombers

Another factual error - On June 15, The Israeli Shin Bet (SHABAK) arrested a Palestinian terrorist cell in Nablus. The cell included eight members, four of them were child suicide bombers. The cell was directed and funded by the Fatah's Tanzim branch and Lebanese group Hizbullah. It was involved in May child terrorists attacks. [43] [1]) --Irishpunktom\^talk 11:15, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

I don't see any factual error in it. MathKnight 11:18, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Check the source provided, then read it agin, then tell me how that assertion was made? --Irishpunktom\^talk 11:23, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

I checked and double checked and clarified the issue, adding a third link and done a little copyedit and rewording. Still, these are things you (or any other Wikipedian) could have done by reading the sources. All in all, the case is well established for the "disputed tag" be removed. MathKnight 11:43, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The link above is dead - I think there's a problem with using Haaretz as a linkable source here. It wouuld be fine if the article is quoted, but Haaretz links often bring up a 404 error for some reason. It's a shame, as its preferable to many of the other sources found here (including many that are in Hebrew). illWill 15:48, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I know. It is realy a plagueing problem. While they Haaretz links that do endure, it seem some of them are not, and as time passes it is hard to find another link (though it is possible via googleing it takes more and more time). In this case, I forecure the problem and added a Ynet link (Ynet in the online version of Yediot Aharonot newspaper) that should endure. MathKnight 16:03, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Links

At the risk of becoming the resident "links pain in the butt" - the links on this page are really poor. Geocities pages, links to a blog, pictures claiming to be kids dressed as suicide bombers that aren't - just poor quality.

I've deleted some - and will try to pick up the rest. I'm not even claiming POV here - they're just crappy links.

I'm not against goecities or blogs per se but I think they need to be treated a lot more carefully than more extablished journalistic (or even pressure group) sites, and those which are not single issue. I'd way rather see a link to the BBC (or better yest Reuters) than to www.geocities.com/StopTheChildmurdering. I hope we all agree on this.

My guess is that will start a storm from the usual suspects - so can we discuss here before starting a "revert war". My line is that I've tried to take out the weakest links <G> and if they need reinstated then we could try to justify why they are relevant to the atrticle rather than assuming that anything vaguely on topic should be there and justifying it being removed (ie a link earns it place because it's a high quality link - irrespective of POV?) - does this sound reasonable?

62.253.64.15 18:44, 12 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone object to BBC link http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1446003.stm ? 62.253.64.15 20:03, 12 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Adding http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3899015.stm revealing interview with a (failed) suicide bomber. 62.253.64.15 20:24, 12 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly agree that links from reputable news organisations are preferable - I don't personally regard blogs, watchdogs, Indymedia or other secondary news sources as very worthwhile in the context of an article such as this one. The links you have put in are good.illWill 20:31, 12 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/15979 - is a long but thought provoking piece from the NY review of books. Notable for a section at the end talking about Hamas being heavily criticised by ordinary Palestinians. Not so sympathetic to either the Israeli or the suicide bombers positions - my guess is that the author broadly supports the Palestinian Cause - but does cite AI that Suicide Bombing is a "crime against humanity". 62.253.64.15 20:36, 12 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Complete rewrite of article

Someone has decided to almost completly rewrite the article to make it more pov. I'm sorry but the previous version was infinitely more acceptable. A revert is in order.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 04:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

the article as it is is extreme POV in all its sections. Not acceptable.--Thameen 16:14, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually whatever problems were present in the previous version pale in comparison to the new ones you have created. For example your inclusion of the unsourced passage "500 Palestinian children were killed by the Israeli troops" is considered irrelvant to the subject of this article and is obviously meant to downplay the relevant subject. Also "The Palestinians claim that the three kids were intentionally killed by the Israeli Ocuupation Army while playing near the settlement." and "Many Palestinians believe that these stories are fabricated by the IDF to show the Palestinians as seding their kids to death." are both obviously unacceptable pov passages. I am reverting to the previous version once again. Please try to edit in a more constructive way.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 16:27, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The constructive way to do it is to edit what you think is POV, not to RV, RV is used with Vandalism. It seems that you do not want to waste ur time doing a constructive editing, or you do not want to.

It is relevant to mention the kids killed by the army, first because it helps the read put things in proper dimention, second it helps clarify the environment in which some minors were involved in the conflict. actually we need to put a new section that deals with the background on which this involvement of the kids happpened.

The article in 30 places puts the IDf reports as true facts, and states them like true without mentioning that it is IDF claim like " on a specific date a minor was arrested carying expplosives near Huwara" without citation, without independent reports, and without explaining what the palestinin side had to say.

I see this whole article as a POV. It needs complete rewrite. An article that starts by saying that the involvement of minors in suicide bombing is PREVALENT is not a NPOV article. Lets join good efforts and produce a good article, RV will not work.

I have seen in ur talk page that you have been involved in some other agressive edits and some ppl are complaining. this will not work here. --Thameen 12:34, 1 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A revert is clearly warranted when ther are no redeeming qualities of an edit. You are just introducing either obvious pov or passages that are irrelevant to this article's real subject.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 13:13, 1 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was looking for clear examples of what was POV in my edit. you abuse RV. not good way to cooperate. --Thameen 18:08, 1 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have provided samples of your pov and irrelavant additions, there is not reason to go over every single one, since that is the only thing you are adding. I would be one thing if you were actually adding anything the least bit positive to the article, but since you aren't, a reversion is clearly the prudent thing to do.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 18:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Background of this Subject

I have read the above discussion and I found that at many points some editors has suggested that the background on which these rare incidents happened be explain. This request was denied and removed from the article on the grounds that it is irrelevant, which is the same reason why Moshe has been aggresively RV my edits.

I think it is of paramount importance that we put a section on the background of these children and the situations, bot social and psychologically, in which they have got involved as alleged by the occupation army (i e the IDF)

In this section we need to mention

The Current Conflict
Its effect on kids in general
the use of kids by both parties in general
the position of the palestinian public and resistance organizations regarding the minors.
and Most Importantly, we need to hear the voice of these kids. What do they say regarding these issues.

--Thameen 14:51, 3 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A problem With Reference and Citation

There is a problem regarding reference and citation in this article. Many reference links do not work. Some link to Hebrew language sites.

Plz who ever added these links to repair them and replace the Hebrew links with English ones.

If these links are not repaired, I suggest we remove them.

--Thameen 14:55, 3 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]