Talk:Doctor of Philosophy

"Medical schools may offer research Ph.D. degrees in conjunction with their M.D. programs, although an M.D. by itself is frequently enough to teach medicine."

Should be polished - perhaps elaborate on MD/PhD programs? An MD is always "enough" to practice medicine. Maybe mention the advantages of earning a research oriented PhD in conjunction with earning an MD.

In the modern world, it indicates an individual who went back to school because they were unable to get a real job. Typical PhDs do not like this pointed out in public, and tend to edit out comments such as this one.

Riiggght.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm Jackliddle 03:17, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Omitted the above. :-)))

(My Ph.D. was awarded only after I was sufficiently motivated, by Jimbo, to finish the dissertation; my finishing was a condition of my employment and got me a raise. So there!)

Hey, all the above being said, the article should probably contain some information about the notion of the perpetual student and the envy and contempt of overeducated people on the part of some other people, such as the person who wrote the above. The page should also probably be located on Doctor of Philosophy. --Larry Sanger, Ph.D.

Mention should perhaps also be made of the contempt of undereducated people on the part of some Ph.D's ! ;-) --Seb

Ahem -- I worked "real jobs" and taught while working on my PhD. I've worked in Telecom, dotcoms,and regulatory jobs, as well as food service and other crap money jobs. i have a PhD because it's a prerequisite for teaching at a university level and pretty useful for competing to teach at community colleges. Many of the people I went to grad school with also have similar real world experience. I suggest that the person above may not know his ass from his elbow, and my need anal-cranial separation therapy...JHK

Ph.D's don't exist just in english speaking countries - it's used all over the world. Local variants are commonly translated to Ph.D when they are comparable with the international convention. I didn't change the article because I didn't know how to refrase it properly. --Tbackstr

I think in other countries they are usually just called "Doctor", abbreviated as Dr., or "Doctor of medicine", "Doctor of natural sciences" etc. The general use of the Philosophy label is only used in English speaking countries I believe. By the way, do engineers get a Ph.D.? --AxelBoldt (Yes engineers can get a PhD Drkirkby 10:20, 22 April 2006 (UTC))[reply]

I know that with some luck I'm going to get my Ph.D or D.Sc. (Doctor of Science) in a few years in a non-english speaking country (Finland). However, the question of which one I'll get, Ph.D. or D.Sc., is still a bit diffuse for me, since I'm an engineer. Tbackstr In England at least, one gets a PhD for a fairily narrow bit single research. Althought highly desirable to do so, it is not actually necessary in England at least to publish any scientific papers as part of a PhD. The DSc in comparision requires the publication of a large number of papers Drkirkby 10:20, 22 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Since you're a Wikipedian the following doesn't apply to you.....

PhD students, in moving up in the educational ladder have to narrow their fields to increase their depth of knowledge on a subject. Learning more and more about less and less, they eventually end up by knowing everything about nothing! (;-P) firepink YOU ARE A FUCKING IDIOT WHO PROBABLY POSSESSES A B.A. IN COMMUNICATIONS. GO FORNICATE YOURSELF WITH A HOT IRON ROD.

Would it be worth splitting the information up into more regional sections? A lot of the current stuff is slightly inaccurate when applied to the UK, for instance. cferrero Yes, I felt that too. For example the bit "...in others such as engineering or geology, a doctoral degree is considered desirable but not essential for employment. " Actually, in many cases in England being a Chartered Engineer is more desirable for employment than a PhD. Drkirkby 10:20, 22 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps. Also to be considered is that grad student and this article have a lot of overlap in content (although not authorship) and should perhaps be reworked concurrently? --zandperl 02:12, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I am reminded of the student who after getting his "Permanent Head Damage" announced to his professor he was starting work on a second Phd. When asked why, he replied "Any idiot can get just one Phd"!

Disputation

I added a description here yesterday on the procedure of a Swedish doctoral disputation. Today somebody added "and Egypt" to this text. It is quite possible that Egyptian universities have the practice of a public defense, but is really the procedure and terminology identical? Unless this can be corroborated, I will remove Egypt from the present context. / Tupsharru 11:46, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Comparative balance of research and coursework at dissertation stage internationally: explanation suitable to laypeople

I moved this from the PhD page proper, thinking it was more proper to the talk page: "This article failed to explain in layman's language the difference between a PhD by Research and one where it involves a lot of course work In the US, it is PhD by rigid coursework and research for dissertation; in Germany, Japan and Canada is it by rigid PhD by research with chosen coursework??? PLease it will be nice if you can work on this." --(moved by)EuropracBHIT 03:51, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC).

Well???

after reading all the negative I am shocked! I am holdin a Ph.D d. Master in Indust. Psych. and it took a long time hard work and I am not sorry for it! So anyone who wants to go for it...you do need a brain ;-)))) not just words! [Comment at 19:56, 1 Jun 2005 by User:217.185.243.9 ]

Which particular sentences create an impression of negativity? --Theo (Talk) 09:27, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Philosophy as the Lowest?

The article currently says this:

"Philosophy was, however, considered the lowest of the faculties, and the Ph.D. died out in many universities".

Can anyone prove this? If the article is referring to philosophy prior to the Enlightenment then it is surely mistaken as all educated "philosophers" prior to this time were also working in the natural sciences and the arts; think of the ancient athenians who contributed to several fields of knowledge and likewise so did many of the Enlightenment theorists (such as Rousseau who wrote novels, studied nature and wrote political philosophy; or Francis Bacon who amongst other things wrote novels, painted and contributed toward science. So, that sentence: "Philosophy was, however, considered the lowest of the faculties, and the Ph.D. died out in many universities". It is plainly wrong. It is impossible to prove. Consequently, I will remove it.--CJ 1 July 2005 09:37 (UTC)

Missing info

I feel that this article could do with a bit more one how one might go about applying for and carrying out a Ph.D. — Chameleon 13:39, 15 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That's a great idea, but based on the above discussion (esp. by cferrero), I have a feeling that the processes may well be country- and course-specific. In Australia, the principal pre-requisite is a Bachelor degree.... having said that, the paradox was started a few years ago when the combined MD/PhD course was introduced, permitting students straight out of high school to apply for this course.

Perhaps we can start to discuss how one goes about obtaining their particular doctorates in their countries? Steph, 25 January 2006

external links

The external links are, entirely, inappropriate. There is a references section and if these links are not actually cited or citable for this article, they are here merely to attrack clicks. Therefore, they are spam. -James Howard (talk/web) 14:51, 20 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Short comment on the PHD (ABD) designation

It seems rather ludicrous to actually use this type of designation. Although I can understand intellectually why one would want to do so, it seems disingenuous since probably the most important parts of the PHD is the dissertation. I would suggest then that we could use the designation; PHD(ABE), All But Education.

For better or worse, it's commonplace. If one look in job ads for faculty members one sees "PhD, or ABD expected to finish by August" (or similar language) in a great many ads. However, when I see someone sign a letter with something like PhD (ABD), and it's clear that they left school decades ago and have no intention of ever finishing, I wonder who they think they're impressing. Being ABD is little different from having a M.S., it seems to me. JJL 20:42, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Any comments regarding PhD being revoked?

Hello all. I was just reviewing the article about Jan Hendrik Schön, and his scandal involving his post-doctoral work. As far as I know, this is the first time someone has been deprived of their degree of Doctor of Philosophy due to scandals unrelated to their work as a graduate student. At any rate, does anyone have any comment about adding a section on revoked PhDs? - Steph (yes, PhD), 25 January 2006

Boston U. considered doing this for Martin Luther King, Jr.'s doctorate based on charges of plagiarism, but decided against it: Martin Luther King, Jr. authorship issues. But, revoking a Ph.D. is so rare that I don't think it needs a special section--if anything, it should be under degrees in general, not doctoral degrees in particular. JJL 16:12, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ph.D Candidate or Ph.D. Student ??

Does someone know the difference between the term "Ph.D. student" and "Ph.D. candidate"? Is there a difference? I'm asking this, because i don't know which term to write on my webpage. I have not undertake the first year quals yet. Thanks for any comments! 66.36.152.79 01:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Typically, a PhD student is anyone enrolled in a gradauate program that ends with a PhD. Therefore the minute you show up in graduate school you are a PhD student. A candidate usually has specific guidelines. At my school (and several others that I know of), a PhD "candidate" has passed the comprehensive exams and has successfully proposed his/her dissertation; most PhD candidates are therefore in their final year or two of graduate school. Hope this helps! -Nick 02:03, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It probably varies by school; where I am, if you're enrolled in a PhD programme, you're either/both a PhD student and a PhD candidate. Exploding Boy 03:10, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for your answers. Does anybody else want to express their opinion? 66.36.152.79 04:50, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Being a candidate is a formal status, and being admitted to candidacy is usually a formal process. A typical set of requirements is a certain amount of coursework, having passed the prelims, having selected an advisor, and possibly having prepared a research proposal. All PhD candidates are PhD students, but not vice versa. JJL 20:45, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Different "grades" of PhD

It is possible to be awarded a "PhD with distinction" in Australia. Is this different grading of the degree conferred in other countries? Steph, 14 Feb 2005.

I've never heard of anything like this in the USA. -Nick 18:00, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Internationally

How about some content like the way that Ph.D. requirements, etc. vary from country to country and also (if possible) how many Ph.D.s each country has. I hear india has the most. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 19:49, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Time

15 years? That is almost unheard of as far as I can tell. In my field 5-7 is the norm, and my friends in other fields report similar times. 10 years is very long in almost any program (in the US, anyway). In fact, at my school (and at least two other US schools that I've checked) there is an absolute 10-year time limit. If you (or anyone else) knows of some sort of empirical data to support any of this, let me know. -Nick^talk 05:02, 17 March 2006 (UTC) There was a Prof at University College London who told me his part-time PhD took 14 years. He was not the mosy dynamic person I ever knew it must be said. No idea where he got the PhD from. Note I did not write the bit about the 15 years, so my knowing of someone taking 14 years is a bit more evidence that they can take a long time.[reply]

Science/Mathematics Doctorates

How many pages would a sci/math dissertation typically amount to? Or can a dissertation be really short just as long as the ideas presented are impressive/unique?

A little confusing

There are separate articles for Doctor of Philosophy and Doctorate. Neither article explains the difference. There is a section in Thesis on oral defenses, yet this article also contains a large section on the same topic. Exploding Boy 04:30, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

One other problem

In several wikipedia articles I've been watching, I've started to notice that international differences are causing articles to become confusing. This is one of those articles. In the US, a PhD means one thing. In the UK, it has other meanings and requirements. In Australia, yet another meaning. Every english speaking country (that would be using the EN version of wikipedia) has a different take on exactly what "doctor of philosophy" is. As such, I suggest that this article be re-written so that it is sectioned by country. Much of the info in this article is interesting, but irrelevant to people in other countries. For example, there is a very common 10-year limit in the US for finishing a PhD. I believe americans would want to know that, and that europeans would want to know that PhDs can take much longer in their academic system. Rather than stating a vague "it can take between 4-15 years to finish a PhD," I think the readers would be better served by seeing sections that pertain to their countries, and reading information that is more specfic. Those readers who are interested in a broader perspective will certainly read the other sections. Thoughts? -Nick^talk 06:12, 23 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I second that. The section headed 'Time', particularly the third paragraph, is extremely confusing and garbled- I suspect because it is inadvertently conflating the US and British higher education systems. At least, that's my assumption- I have been a post-grad student in the UK, and I can only say that the system described is very different to my experience. It should be clearly demarcated what info pertains to which country's system. Badgerpatrol 15:30, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why does this page include discussion of PhD programs other than philosophy? It seems like only the introductory section ought to be present in this article; the rest should be relegated to a general PhD article that this one could link to.

(:lol. Badgerpatrol 23:42, 29 May 2006 (UTC))[reply]

Is it a gag? Well then in case anyone wonders in the future, Ph.D. stands for "Doctor of Philosophy" no matter what field the degree is granted in. Someone with a Ph.D. in astrophysics still is a doctor of philosophy. :) -Nick^talk 03:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Coursework

"In the British-patterned universities, the Ph.D. program is much shorter because the coursework component is assigned to the masters' and bachelors' degrees, and the Ph.D. course is concerned purely with research for a thesis."

This makes it sound like it's a given that a PhD student might will have done both a undergraduate and post-graduate qualification. While for the funding bodies this is the accepted model, many mature (and self-funders) students will undertake a Phd without doing a Masters'.

Yes, that section is total nonsense. I don't know who wrote it, but they don't appear to know what they're talking about. Doing a Master's, or even a 4-year undergrad degree, has nothing to do with any subsequent PhD study (see my comment above) and is not in any way a necessity, whether one is a mature student or not (although it is obviously fairly common). It is possible that it was written from an American perspective- this whole idea of 'coursework' is one that is fairly alien to me, although I appreciate that there are a wide diversity of approaches to PhD study, even within the UK. I have added a clean-up tag. Badgerpatrol 13:44, 2 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That was me above - the article is a bit of a mess and frankly I'm not sure it can be saved in it's current form. It's such a mish-mash of different systems that anyone reading it is likely to get entirely confused about which country does what.

--Charlesknight 08:18, 5 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In most cases the PhD is a combination of coursework, qualifying/comprehensive exams and dissertation/thesis, isn't it? Perhaps the way to solve the problems is to divide the article by regions (North America, UK, etc). Oh wait. It already is. So what's the problem? Exploding Boy 15:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Only the funding section is divided up by region at present. The problem is that much of the information (or at least that part which seems to claim to describe the British system) is wrong. It obviously varies, but I can only speak from my own experience of the UK. Nobody has to do a Master's before undertaking a PhD, as described above, and there is no need for special exemptions. Anyone who has a recognised Bachelor's degree can go straight on to do a PhD in the UK. I've never heard of PhD students submitting coursework for assessment or undertaking formal exams (except for the viva at the end), but there are a great diversity of systems and differences between subjects and institutions even within a country, let alone internationally. I think however for a broad framework dividing the whole article up by region is step in the right direction. Badgerpatrol 15:19, 5 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, I agree. The bulk of the article needs dividing by region. In Canada, being accepted to a PhD program implies completion of a related Master's degree, or, in exceptional cases, an Honours BA (which is different from a BA Hons in the UK, as far as I know). In addition, there is a requirement for some coursework, and for completion of comprehensive examinations in addition to the thesis defence (viva). Exploding Boy 15:26, 5 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In the UK, it's still pretty much the model that the thesis is the start, middle and the end of it. No classes or examination (some universities have a process where you provide a progress update at the end of the first year but it's pretty much it). To confuse matters further - many are now adopting a model where instead of producing a thesis - the student will produce four inter-relating research papers and those are classified as the thesis.

--Charlesknight 16:09, 5 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As is already the usual system in much of Europe, at least. Badgerpatrol 16:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well I've reorganised the page to bring it more in line with the Graduate school article, so feel free to get in there and clarify. Exploding Boy 16:17, 5 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]