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Of note right now

Tulsa's been featured in Stars and Stripes! It's the military newspaper that caters to US forces overseas in Europe, the MidEast, and the Pacific. Tulsa got a full-page feature in the travel section... check out page 35 of the April 6 issue, European edition. You can download a PDF from this link (will disappear in roughly a week, 9 MB download).--DUc0N 07:30, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Demographics

In connection with the 1921 Race Riot, I see you returned the comment about Tulsa being "still geographically divided between predominately poor and African-American north Tulsa, and predominately wealthy and white south Tulsa."

While this is true in a very general sense, it is misleading to single Tulsa out compared with other U. S. cities. I discussed this with a good African-American friend who lives on the north side. She pointed out that new, nice houses are being built all the time in north Tulsa, that it is not all black, and that south Tulsa is a mix.TulsaTV 13 Apr 2004

Basically, the question to ask is, is the statement "still geographically divided between predominately poor and African-American north Tulsa, and predominately wealthy and white south Tulsa" factual? Our task as Wikipedians is to report, not to judge, hence the NPOV policy. It is true that "new, nice houses are being built all the time in north Tulsa, that it is not all black, and that south Tulsa is a mix"; however, that is precisely why the word "predominantly" appears in the statement, to qualify it as a tendency rather than as an absolute. There can be no doubt that the statement does accurately describe general trends in Tulsa; visit City Hall and ask for demographic maps collected by the records department which will confirm that north Tulsa, in general, has a much higher African-American population and a much lower average income level than south Tulsa. --Lowellian 20:16, Apr 13, 2004 (UTC)

Re the question of whether Tulsa is "still geographically divided between predominately poor and African-American north Tulsa, and predominately wealthy and white south Tulsa":

Again, in general, it is somewhat true, however, the real question is whether it is pronounced in comparison with other cities in the Midwest region. If not, then to report it this way (following the history of the 1921 Race Riot) is misleading. Do you believe Tulsa is segregated to an unusual degree? My friend in north Tulsa, who is a world traveller and native Tulsan long a resident of north Tulsa, disagrees, and so do I.

I see that the entry for Washington, D.C. does not make note of its sharp geographical/socioeconomic/racial lines. Should this be noted? Would it be more significant in light of the fact that Washington had a race riot in 1919?

By the way, could I ask you to sign and date all your comments? Thank you.
Moving on to the topic under discussion: When cities exhibit clear demographic trends linked to geography, then, yes, I believe the article for the city should contain the information. This includes Washington, DC, and other major cities in the United States with such clear demographic trends. I am not attempting to "single out" Tulsa; rather, I have contributed to the Tulsa article in the past and am simply trying to make the information there more complete. I have not added information about demographics to cities with which I am less familiar with the demographic trends.
Notice that Wikipedia is a work in progress, and most of its articles are not really complete. For example, the fact that a bibliography has not yet been written for the article on one famous author does not mean that it should not be written for the article on another famous author.
--Lowellian 19:31, Apr 14, 2004 (UTC)

There is an abundance of data on segregation in U.S. cities at http://www.censusscope.org/us/s40/rank_dissimilarity_white_black.html. The white-black dissimilarity index shows Tulsa rated as 60.3. By comparison, Austin is 60.9, Oklahoma City is 61, Wichita is 63, all very slightly more segregated than Tulsa (Washington, D.C. is 81.5). Therefore the statement that Tulsa is "still geographically divided between predominately poor and African-American north Tulsa, and predominately wealthy and white south Tulsa" is erroneous and misleading. I intend to remove it unless you have a cogent response to this information. TulsaTV 13:42, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Check your link again. It actually shows Oklahoma City at 59.0, below Tulsa. And if you check Kansas, Wichita is 59.4, also below Tulsa.
Most large American cities are segregated to some extent (which is precisely why the terms "ghettoes" and "inner city" have the connotations they do in the United States). The question here is not whether an area that has a statistically significant larger percentage of a particular racial or ethnic group exists (as at least one such area clearly does exist in most large American cities), but where that area is. Depending on the city, it could be in the east, the west, the north, or the south. In Tulsa, the area with the larger African-American population is the north. Just because other cities are also segregated does not mean that Tulsa is not. 60.3 is still a fairly high number; it is well above 50, and places Tulsa second in Oklahoma, only behind Muskogee. And like I said earlier, just because other cities do not yet have such kinds of information does not mean that they should not have such information, because Wikipedia is a work still in progress.
However, maybe we could change the statement somewhat. Consider this proposal: Move the statement away from the Tulsa Race Riot discussion (so as not to imply that one led to the other). Instead, move it into the Demographics section and rephrase the statement into something along the lines of "Much of the African-American population of Tulsa lives in the northern part of the city, which has a lower average income than the rest of the city." --Lowellian 18:04, Apr 18, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the correction on those dissimilarity indices. It was a honest mistake. My point was not that the other cities named were significantly more segregated, but that the numbers were very close. That is still true with the corrected figures.

Re your proposed statement, "Much of the African-American population of Tulsa lives in the northern part of the city...":

"Much" implies to me at least 50%, possibly as much as 80% or so. Is there any factual basis for an assertion even this broad? I would agree that north Tulsa (defined even at its broadest, as the area north of Admiral) has a higher proportion of African-Americans that other broad sectors of Tulsa, but not necessarily "much" of the A-A population.

The area north of Admiral today is large and diverse. TulsaTV 18:44, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

On further reflection, the term "north Tulsa" usually implies not the entire area north of Admiral, but historical north Tulsa, i.e., north of downtown Tulsa and not more than a few miles to the east. I still don't see any data supporting the "much" statement. The only other relevant link I can find is http://www.censusscope.org/us/m8560/chart_exposure.html, but it doesn't really answer the question. Your statement above, "In Tulsa, the area with the larger African-American population is the north," is undoubtedly true, but the stronger assertion "Much of the African-American population of Tulsa lives in the northern part of the city..." is not yet supported. TulsaTV 08:56, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The Tulsan

UPDATE 12/7/05: INASMUCH [UNNAMMED] REFUSES TO ALLOW ME TO EDIT THE DISCUSSION BELOW, AN UPDATE: As the sole proprietor and and editor of TheTulsan, I am sincerely thankful that no further attacks have been forthcoming from Mr. Ironic Last Name (that is a joke, hahaha!) My advice regarding moving to T-town or Oklahoma has changed: I encourage all brave Americans of strong heart and fierce independence to move here and join the struggle! It is amazing to me that Mr. Ironic Last Name thinks the discussion about his failed attempts to censor lil' ol' meeee is worthy of archiving . . . I move to delete the discussion regarding who (indeed) kept removing TheTulsan. UPDATE 12/13/05: I 2nd the motion . . .

Whoever keeps editing out the link to The Tulsan needs to get a life. This is what one gets, people, in Tulsa. These people think the world revolves around them, and if anything is done to challenge them they are as close-minded as one would expect any podunk backwater to be. I have debated all comers on all forums available, and the opposition loses every time. My advice to anyone thinking of moving to Tulsa or Oklahoma is DO NOT DO IT. The town is dying, the state is backward, and a lot of the people are the self-righeous narrow-minded clods one would expect.

See the above section. I should also make you aware of our Wikipedia:Three revert rule and Wikipedia:No personal attacks policy. Also, if you vandalize this talk page once more I will block you. -- Hadal 16:45, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Obviously I agree with the removal, as I did it first. Move to keep thetulsan.com off wikipedia. Danlovejoy 16:49, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well, sure you do Dan. I have been critical of your right-wing agenda, your friends, and your party. If The Tulsan is soooooo awful, why did I have to beg your right-wing buddy Michael Bates to remove it from his site after it had been there for YEARS? I apologize for defacing your comments, misguided or not. It was wrong of me to express my frustration by removing his attempt to cast dispersions on my abilities and usefulness of The Tulsan. That is ssoooooooo Tulsa Whirled of you Dan!
You keep using that word. I do not think it means, what you think it means. I understand how having your site removed could be frustrating and make you want to lash out, but I would implore you to moderate your tone for the sake of congeniality.
My ideological leanings and associations are not relevant to this discussion, but you really have gotten them wrong nonetheless. I don't even live in Tulsa, and I had never heard of you before I deleted your link from the Tulsa entry. I have met Michael Bates one time, but I don't really understand (nor care about) his role in this "controversy." We don't speak regularly. I don't have any particular agenda with regard to Wikipedia, and my poltical leanings are not so simply distilled as "right wing," although that is a convenient label.
The great thing about the web is that anyone can put up any old tripe they want. That's why I'm allowed a site! But it also means that people can pick and choose what they link to. I think the community will agree with me that your site doesn't meet Wikipedia standards. However, since you accuse me of ideological bias, I will not remove your link again. Someone else should, and probably will. Danlovejoy 20:18, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Inasmuch as these comments are for the record, please note: Dan LIED when he told Wikipedia that 'most of the links are broken.' Which brings us to the second LIE, that the 17th was the first time he had seen The Tulsan, he in fact defamed The Tulsan on the 11th when he also deleted the site. Which begs the question, Danny-boy: ya see something one time, and decide it is unworthy, unprofessional, profane, and non-notable? Quick study, guy! Dan, I am willing to let this go, but I am very angry at your behaviour, and wonder if the OC knows how you are spending your time picking on lil' me. An apology would go far in helping me get over this. :)
PLEASE leave the discussion intact rather than just chopping out sections from the middle so no one knows who said what, or when.
Well, lovely. Now we have veiled threats. My edit history is open for anyone to view (including my boss). The site I removed on the 11th was ShopTulsa.com, as you would have seen instantly if you had bothered to look. As for your threat, I feel pretty good about my position at my work, so if you'd like to write to my boss and ask her "how she feels about [me] spending my time picking" on you, I encourage you to do so. Trust me, you are not even close to the craziest person she's ever dealt with. Danlovejoy 02:54, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Oooooooohhhhh . . . I see it now. Sorry for the misunderstanding! My bad! You did not delete thetulsan on the 11th or say that it is mostly non-working links. I issue total retraction on the remarks above. Your job is safe! :)
NOTE: I added a 'k' to the word 'working' in the post above
Someone decided to remove the "demorilizing"(sic) comment at the top of this thread. I have reverted. In case that person is reading this: Please consider the talk page inviolate unless you have an EXTREMELY compelling reason to edit it. It's a record of the consensus (or lack thereof) that brought us to the current article.

Famous Tulsans

This section could be cleaned up and reformatted in a vertical list, instead of one jumbled paragraph. Milk 15:55, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have removed Tim Quigley, founder of OverXposure.FM from "Famous Tulsans." As far as I can tell, neither he, nor his radio station (which I'm sure is prefectly cromulent) is noteworthy for the purposes of the Wikipedia. His name shows up on the third page of a Google search for "Tim Quigley." Given the unusual nature of his name, if he were famous, don't you think he'd be higher in the rankings? Anyone disagree? Danlovejoy 16:20, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Actually, Tim Quigley's name shows up on the first page as the first result of a Google search. He may not be a household name, but he is a pioneer in chillout radio format.

Hmm.. This is what I turn up as the first result in my Google[1]:
Timothy P. Quigley
Timothy P. Quigley, CPA, CCIM VICE PRESIDENT. Tim Quigley joined NAI Cohen-Esrey’s
Office Properties Group in 1998, and very quickly learned the skills of ...
And Tulsa's Tim Q is still not on the first page of results. Strange. Can you post a link to your search? (see mine above) Danlovejoy 02:35, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Tulsa's Tim Quigley was the first result that day. Today it is the fourth (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%2tim+quigley%22) but is STILL on the first page of search results. Furthermore, this is hardly a way to gauge someone's "importance" in the world arena. Just return the Tim Quigley listing on the Tulsa page as it was originally presented, please. Our having this dispute in the first place only proves the flimsiness of this judgement. And BTW: What happened to the Perriman Family article that was linked to from this page? What was the matter with that article? Did your Google searches not prove enough to you about the founding family of the city of Tulsa? (and no I am not at all related)

I don't know anything about the Perriman article. I did find Tim Quigley's personal site after putting in "Tim Quigley" with quotes. It's the fourth result at the moment. It appears that he has styled himself as a celebrity, and he does run a web radio station. But that doesn't make him famous. This looks an awful lot like self-promotion to me.
Our having this dispute in the first place only proves the flimsiness of this judgement. - The existence of a dispute doesn't automatically validate the viewpoint of one party to the dispute. If you continue to disagree, you should feel free to register and look into the dispute resolution process. If I'm overruled, I'll certainly get over it. Danlovejoy 15:10, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Would it be appropriate to link, somewhere, Roy_D._Mercer? Granted, it is a fictional character. However, considering there is an article on Wikipedia, there are a dozen nationally-marketed CDs, and a mention on CMT's web, could "he" get a mention? N35w101 20-jul-2005

If he's a famous fictional character that's clearly associated with Tulsa (not just as a passing mention in his backstory, for example) I would not be opposed to including him. Would he be in Famous People, or perhaps a new section, "Tulsa in Pop Culture?" I would prefer more guidance from more experienced Wikipedians before I would make this change. However, do as you wish. Be Bold! Danlovejoy 16:28, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Hmm. I like the idea of "Tulsa in Pop Culture". That section could also mention films taking place in/around Tulsa, etc. Perhaps even the entertainment-oriented Famous Tulsans could reside there? Thanks for the exhortation to be bold. However, I'm brand-spanking new to Wikipedia. There's bold and then there is reckless. N35w101 21-jul-2005
There certainly would enough material for a "Tulsa in Pop Culture article". Off the top of my head I, there's Bob Wills and "Take me Back to Tulsa", Don Williams and "Tulsa Time" (plus the Eric Clapton cover), a movie called Tulsa (imdb entry, and the fact that the character in Chandler from Friends was sent to Tulsa for one season. Some of S. E. Hinton's novels which were made into movies were set in and around Tulsa, and at least one, The Outsiders was filmed there. Dsmdgold 18:50, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
OK, I propose the following semi-major mod: creating a new section called "Tulsa's Impact on the World". For discussion, I've shown it below. If there's no object to the mod, I'll pull it out of the talk area for the sake of brevity. --N35w101 21:46, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
OK. I've made my mod. Decided to call it Influence on Society and Culture.

Of all the famous people from Tulsa, I find it so amzing how most of them left Tulsa and Oklahoma and rarely come back , Will Rogers moved to California and stayed, Garth Brooks has a house in the Tulsa Area, but he mostly lives in California

America's Favorite Zoo?

Microsoft has recently named the Tulsa Zoo as "America's Favorite Zoo" in an Internet contest related to a new video game they've produced. An anonymous editor added the appellation without any attribution. I have removed this reference, because it's a marketing contest, a non-scientific Internet poll, and "America's Favorite Zoo" doesn't mean anything. Thoughts? Danlovejoy 02:46, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm not arguing for or against, but I offer these for consideration --N35w101 13:31, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
* the appellation is noted on the Tulsa Zoo's own website (albeit with a trademark identifier).
* the contest did result in a cash grant for zoo upkeep and improvement
* the contest gave the city additional national exposure.
* the contest generated positive interest in the zoo by local citizens (unlike another recent incident)
* the city has at least one other meaningless phrase associated with it: "Oil Capitol of the World"

Surely you mean Capital? But seriously, why not let the zoo bear the title? It's rather impressive (and shocked all of us, I can assure you) Sir Elderberry 23:12, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Entertainment and Attractions section

I've made a major edit, in an attempt to start pulling together sections and miscellaneous mentions of things to do in Tulsa. I hope, by pulling it all together, it will make the article flow better and make it easier for readers to get a comprehensive overview of Tulsa's offerings. --N35w101 08:35, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

America's Most Beautiful City?!

Does anyone know the source of this motto? I found some indication that it was a Readers' Digest contest in the 1950s. I'm dubious of superlatives and wonder if anyone has heard Tulsa called "America's Most Beautiful City." Danlovejoy 00:47, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

  • A quick Google turned up a whole plethora of cities claiming that motto, even some in Canada. Interestingly, Tulsa was the first hit. I've never heard of Tulsa being referred to in that way before.--N35w101 17:53, 9 August 2005 (UTC)


Excerpt from editorial, "Tulsa can compare with best U.S. cities" by Jim Sellars, 9/30/1992, The Tulsa Tribune

"A little research revealed that the title of America's most beautiful city came from a 1957 Reader's Digest article, a bit of happy puffery that was the payoff for some attentive wining and dining of the author by local civic and business leaders. There also was a nugget of truth in that article which is extremely important for this city today, and it has nothing to do with titles.

"Tulsa east of the Arkansas River in 1957 didn't go much beyond 41st Street, much past Sheridan to the east, or Pine Street on the north. Visitors saw a tight little town dominated by the ostentatious, baronial mansions built in the '20s, when oil was king and Tulsa's other title, Oil Capital of the World, made more sense."

TulsaTV 19:50, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

A 1957 Chamber of Commerce magazine-style brochure ("Tulsarama") uses the title. The Reader's Digest reference was in the June 1957 issue, if I recall, and said that Tulsans claimed the title of "America's Most Beautiful City" -- not that they'd been awarded the crown. I remember hearing the phrase used through the late '70s as I grew up in Tulsa. Michael Bates -- 07:25, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Hi Michael! Good to see you on the Wikipedia. Glad people could make that clear. Tulsa IS a beautiful city. Danlovejoy 20:40, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Americas most beautiful city? I think this is highly laughable, I am surprised Americas most beautiful city has virtually no tourists.

Count Basie in Greenwood in 1927? Doubtful.

Hard to believe that 6 years after the burning of Greenwood that it was rebuilt enough to include a dance club that would be the site where Count Basie decided to 'focus on jazz'. I think this merits an actual reference.

LOl! Tulsa is one of America's stinkiest cities! You can smell the feces from Riverside for miles away. The stench of that river is as sickening as the bigoted, fundamentalist society it flows by.

I have to agree

RE: Count Basie in Greenwood in 1927? Doubtful.

Actually, Basie began playing jazz after that visit in Tulsa, being impressed by some local pioneering jazz performers. And the odor of the Arkansas River had nothing to do with it, I'm sure. But considering how quickly the Empire State Building was erected, why is six years not enough time to establish ONE night club? Go play in the traffic, kiddo.

Shameless!

I love Tulsa. Spent half of my life there - off and on.

But! Wikipedia in not a commercial or a Chamber of Commerce presentation. As this article currently stands, it reads like a brochure. There is no doubt that most of the info, facts, figures, etc. need to be here and available, but without all of the spin.

The descriptions of some of the districts and neighborhoods are fine(need a little more current info), but the sections on 'Midtown' and 'South Tulsa' are embarassing. If I didn't know better I would think I was reading a 'Dining & Shopping Guide' pamphlet. Pottery Barn?! Krispy Kreme?! You should be ashamed. Don't misunderstand me, I love to shop there and eat donuts with the rest of the yuppies, but this stuff does not belong here unless it contributes to the article. I found at least three exclamation marks(!) - with very specific exception, these don't belong in articles on Wikipedia! Except on Talk pages! Everyone knows that inventive small businesses are going to try to slip in a blurb now and then about 'Joe Bob's Used Cars', but this stuff is blatent and systematic commercial propaganda. Shameless!

And, while I'm on my box, if you don't know anything about a certain part of town (probably because you don't go there), then don't patronize the people who do live and work there. Leave that section blank and invite others to add to that section. Don't just spout out the first thing that comes to your mind. Why? Because it comes off like: "here's the black side of town, and, oh yeah, over here are the Mexicans". I now what the author was trying to say, but that's not how it came out.

I will continue to work on this page and try to make it worthy of the Great City of Tulsa, but others with knowledge and resources in these area need to be found to contribute. If you have verifiable facts, by all means, contribute. If you have spin, get a job with the Chamber of Commerce or the Tourism Office. If you support or have a legitimate arguement in opposition to this article, by all means speak up. I am always up for a good debate and not afraid to admit when I'm wrong.--Master Scott Hall 19:29, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

history

Tulsa's page is getting really long. Lets move most or all of the history stuff to the article actually of Tulsa's history. If no one has objections, I'll make this change in a few days. Gatherton 07:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Why Tulsa Companies are better than any other cities

Its really a great place to live

I dont know how great it is, Phillip Petroleum, Citgo, Sunoco, Vintage, Wiltel bought out by Level3(they didnt buy the building) plus many more have left. if Williams and American Airlines go South the city is in big trouble,because they are all Tulsa has right now other than a small metal fabrication industry.

Its great if you enjoy the boring life and life on the "plains" they don't call it the plains for nothing.

Tulsa Race Riot

I've lived near Tulsa all my life, and the one thing always covered in History classes is the famous Tulsa Race Riot. It was one of the bloodiest riots in history but I'm surprised to see that this article has no hint of it. Someone should put in an article that at least covers the basics of it. I know there is a seperate article on wiki about this but at least a link would be good. Also, the demographics of the city are very much needed as east, west and north sections of tulsa are most commonly referred to have a dominate race. DrkBlueXG 10:22, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

There's been a link ever since as far back as I cared to look in the article history, which was October 2005. It's in the History of Tulsa section. Tex 00:25, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Tulsa Companies

The list Tulsa businesses headquartered or having a large presence is way too fluffy,

Rib Crib? come on, they only exists in the Tulsa area,

Mazzio's, again only in the Tulsa area with a few in Missouri and Arkansas

Cingular, a large presence? They have a large presence in every city


If resorting to putting Mazzio's on the list of Tulsa companies headquartered in Tulsa, It really show what bad shape Tulsa is in. Every small business owned in Tulsa IS headquartered in Tulsa, that does not make it worthy of putting on the list.

Most of the Article is a vain attempt to sell Tulsa as something it is not anyways.

It should be streamlined into this:

Companies headquartered in Tulsa

1.Williams Co.(probably will move to Houston, in the next 10 years)

2.Thrifty Car Rental (pretty big in their own regards, but not a huge company)

3.Quiktrip (regional, a few in Dallas and some in Atlanta)


Companies with a large presence

1. American Airlines (the largest of 3 maintainence facilities)

If Williams leaves and AA goes out of business, Tulsa is in trouble

Leave Tulsa Alone

Ok, people: Mazzio's has a presence in a dozen states and has hundreds of restaurants from Chicago to Atlanta, so it definitely qualifies as a regional business and listing it as headquartered in Tulsa certainly does not "show what a bad shape Tulsa is in". Let’s keep Wikipedia accurate and fair here, ok? First of all, its unfair to say that Williams and AA are the only companies with large presences in Tulsa. What do you consider to be a "large employer"? According to the Tulsa Metro Chamber, Tulsa has almost 40 companies with over 1,000 jobs in Tulsa, and as near as I can tell, the companies that are listed in the article are most of those same companies. Secondly, and while this isn't relevant to the discussion, it is relevant to these who say "Tulsa is in trouble": The vast majority of businesses in Tulsa are small businesses, yes; this is a major plus for the economy, not a low point. In fact, Entrepreneur.com rates Tulsa as the 10th best city mid-sized city in the U.S. for small businesses. Small businesses provide a very stable economic foundation and eliminate the uncertainty of huge swings in unemployment, making it almost completely certain that Tulsa can survive large employers leaving the city. That's just a point for those of you who think Tulsa is in trouble. (Not that AA or Williams will leave; Williams, for example, has been logging its best numbers for years now, and has recently shot its profits through the roof [in lamest terms] according to several Tulsa World articles in April of '06).

Everytime the national ecomony takes a dip Tulsa and other Southern and Midwestern cities get hit twice as hard because there economies are half as strong as the East-West, Gulf Coast cities. Plus I dont see small business thriving here in Tulsa, not like other large cities. All the locally owned gas stations are being put out by Quiktrip and there are more Walmarts per capita here in Tulsa than any other city. Most of the cities real estate is devalued and not worth much.It is wiser to sell and leave than buy here. The only reason to move here is- its cheap, but so is a greasy digusting 99 cent cheeseburger from Macdonalds.

Also the crime rate is very high, which hard to believe with the large amount of tax revenue that goes into law enforcement. People seem to be getting their kicks with violent crime, in my opinion the reason is they are so bored and fed up with living in such a backward boring place. Most people here are narrow minded and the city is not an acceptable place for young professionals and bright minds.We have a high crime and we are in the bible belt? This part of the country will never get it right. Take my advice if you are considering a move here, stay out of the midwest, you will be bored because there is nothing to do but watch TV and gain weight, you wont do things outdoors because it is either cold and windy or hot and humid.You wont be able to walk here or there because most places have no sidewalk,you have to drive there, and all the bars and clubs are spread out which leads to a crime-DUI, the city is horrible, half vacated, and about half the population is 65 and over.

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2656

Plus I lived in Chicago and I never recall a Mazzios until I came to Tulsa, so I would'nt say a large presence.

-Hey it's a free country - go ahead and move if you don't like Tulsa so much. I tend to agree with Southern Living Magazine and mostlivable.org, which rate Tulsa as one of the top 10 most attractive large cities in the country, and one of the top 10 best places to live. :)

http://www.mostlivable.org/cities/tulsa/home.html

The only reason the population is growing is the cheap unskilled workers coming from south of the border. I will probably move somewhere in the next few years, like I said before, there is a reason why people say "Tulsa sucks", you never hear people say "Maui sucks". I think that instead of saying "If you dont like Tulsa-leave" problem, I would rather hear "If you dont like Tulsa-Change it!"

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-04-11-most-livable_x.htm

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4182/is_20060105/ai_n15995862

http://www.ciremagazine.com/20040807.htm

28% office vacancy rate

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:GsMu0Z2sWpQJ:www.tulsachamber.com/new/general.asp%3Fid%3D221+tulsa+office+space+vacancy+high&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=17

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:SYxFcanxLSgJ:localmarketmonitor.com/Sample/Tulsa.pdf+tulsa+weak+economy&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=21

Im not saying Tulsa is the worst city to live in the USA, but it is damn close

I have to agree Tulsa sucks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.207.222.130 (talk • contribs) 5:28, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Tulsa Rocks!

I have come to Tulsa to establish two new businesses, which I've added to the list. It's not wrong to do, because Tulsa is a unique market that is strong enough to attract new businesses, and this fact needs to be pointed out. wbsorens, May 19, 2006, 7:55 p.m.

Good luck to your business in Tulsa, I am positive that you are not from a coastal state, Because the only people who think that Tulsa is strong enough to attract new businesses is people from the small towns in Oklahoma and surrounding states, go see other parts of the country and you will be amazed at the lackluster of Tulsa.

Government

How come no mention of the city government? evrik 16:37, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Removed "Center of the Universe" section

This section, which appears to be merely Original Research was removed, until a source can be found for the claims:

Another unique local downtown landmark is the "Center of the Universe", an echo spot located on the arched pedestrian bridge, next to the old Tulsa Union Depot (the future home of the Oklahoma Jazz Hall of Fame). To experience the acoustic phenomenon of the Center of the Universe, all one needs to do is to stand in the middle of the circle on the arch of the bridge and speak. This part of downtown is always fairly empty of people, especially at night, and is a good place for urban exploration. At the bottom of the steps, next to the train tracks, is a sewer grate which, as legend has it, leads eventually to Tulsa's defunct system of underground tunnels, which supposedly stretch throughout downtown.

--LeflymanTalk 18:55, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with removing it. I live in Tulsa and I know that the "center of the universe" really is a true local legend... but I don't think it needs to be in an encyclopedia article about Tulsa.

The section on the port of Catoosa states that it is the most inland port in the world, this is false,the its the most inland in the USA.

Long article

Standard disclaimer: native Tulsan, newbie Wikipedian, etc etc. That out of the way, does this article really need some of the sections it has? I don't see why a listing of every branch of TCCL is necessary. Nor do I see the need for a description of how the road system works or an enumeration of churches in the area. These problems were highlighted back in December but I'd like to emphasize the statement: this is an encyclopedia article about Tulsa, not the Chamber of Commerce Guide to Tulsa. This article reads like it was written by a marketing committee and the extensive external linkage smells to me of SEO firms capitalizing on Wikipedia's high visibility and reputation.

Suggestions:

  • Condense the section on the neighborhoods. Some of it's good, some of it's pointless name-dropping, and I've never heard anyone refer to Terwilleger Heights in my life.
  • Condense the Healthcare System section. In the first place, it's hardly encyclopedic, and in the second place, it's absurdly biased toward St. Francis. The section is filled with meaningless accolades of St. Francis and misses entirely mention of Hillcrest and TRMC. Not to mention, despite the fact that everyone in town calls it St. John's, the proper name of the hospital is St. John Medical Center -- please see [2].
  • Business and economy. Is there any reason that can't become, say, List of major employers in Tulsa, Oklahoma, or at least just feature the top 10 in each category? As it stands it's nothing but a long list of redlinks, which says that these companies are not important or notable enough to merit creation of even a stubpage for them.
  • Excise mention of the street network. Totally NN.
  • The list of schools needs trimmed. I think mentioning the public school systems and maybe the first five private schools is enough. The list of parochial schools is mostly redlinks and school inclusionists notwithstanding, they're really NN.
  • The section about TCCL needs removed. Completely. There is no reason for this information to be here, other than useless padding of an overlong article. The map of library facilities on the TCCL website does an excellent job of helping people to locate their nearest library.
  • The Faith and Worship section needs to go. I realize that Tulsa is a deeply religious town with more than its share of churches -- after all, Oral Roberts built there, didn't he? But merely being "popular" doesn't make a church notable and there are some churches included that I'd quibble with the popular designation anyway. The megachurches like Rhema, Victory Christian and Higher Dimensions might be worth a mention, and Boston Avenue because it is a noted work of Art Deco. Everything else should be removed.

Look, I get being proud of the city, but that pride has spilled over the line here into a meaningless puff piece. This article has been bothering me for months but I've hit the point where my frustration at this useless article is boiling over. I figured I'd throw my concerns on the talk page before I grabbed a pair of shears and started pruning. (janeway216 17:39, 5 May 2006 (UTC))

Oh, I intend to go for it, I just wanted to throw up a notice on the talk page in case this bothered anyone and also so people had warning of what was going to happen. I didn't figure this was that controversial, but everyone's seen the edit wars and arguments elsewhere -- so, propose, then implement. (janeway216 21:31, 5 May 2006 (UTC))

Corporations in Tulsa

There are a few instances in this discussion where there is very similar word usage, all of which talking about "how bad Tulsa is"... I am ?beginning to think it is the same person, and all I ask is to stop polluting the Tulsa discussion board. I thought discussions were meant to help wiki editors discuss how to edit pages, not to throw far-flung opinions about the topic in question. So stop it, seriously. I don't care if you don't like Tulsa, but who ever you are, you're not helping anyone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.255.195.70 (talk • contribs) 21:05, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

To whom it concerns,
This is a discussion board to discuss Tulsa, I would not consider my opinions to be far flung , to consider Mazzios and other companies to be MAJOR companies that are based in Tulsa ,THAT IS FAR FLUNG!!!! This is a discussion board, if you want to paint a rosy picture of Tulsa and decieve people, this is wrong. I am just helping people to save their time and money on a plane ticket and go somewhere else if they want to enjoy life. If you are into facts you should tell the truth-the economy sucks,the city is one of the most bigoted in the nation, real estate is cheap because no one wants to buy it, etc, etc, stop with the picture of Tulsa through rose colored glasses of Tulsa, come on Sobo? South Boston? give me a freakin break, no one calls south Boston "Sobo" "Uptown Tulsa"? bullcrap, This article is so bogus and rose colored. It needs to be downsized, without all the references to all the little details like a list of churchs, or all the Tulsa library branches, companies with a large presence, Cingular? Cox cable? Direct TV? they have a large presence in all cities. Stop with the fluffy hype, it is deceptive.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.207.222.130 (talk • contribs) 14:52, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
..again, Mazzios has hundreds of locations in over a dozen states. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.244.174.143 (talk • contribs) 17:28, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I am not the only one writing negative comments about Tulsa, its not just one person, and if Mazzios is considered to be a MAJOR company to Tulsa, you just confirmed how bad the economy really is in Tulsa.Mazzios has most locations within Oklahoma, with a handful out of state.Your comment above is misleading— Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.207.222.130 (talk • contribs) 11:36, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
  • The anonymous poster above apparently hasn't checked the Mazzios.com Web site, which lists 11 states, and hundreds of locations. Mazzios also owns the "Zios" corporate chain of Italian restaurants with 17 locations in 6 states. A recent corporate news release notes, "Mazzio's Corporation employs over 4,000 people." That's not a minor company. Note to the both IPs above: this is not a "discussion board to discuss Tulsa"; it's a work-space for discussing improvements/changes to the article. Do not use it for uncivil comments. And please sign your posts. —LeflymanTalk 18:03, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

As I said before most are in Oklahoma actually 102, 30 in Arkansas,,12 in Missouri,16 in Texas,2 in Kansas,1 in Iowa,1 in Illinois,1 in Tennessee, 9 in Mississippi, 2 in Georgia, they are in 10 states, and dont have hundreds of stores, and they are not major, they are regional at best with most stores in Oklahoma, they have 1 store in three states, and 2 in two states, you are trying to be misleading, they are not a MAJOR company. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.245.163.1 (talk • contribs) 16:53, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

  • The anonymous IP again makes a weak claim. The Oklahoma Department of Commerce would differ with him: Mazzios is listed as one of the "Major Oklahoma Employers, with an estimated 2400-2500 employees in 2005. (See: OKCommerce.gov PDF) It is behind Braums (whose entire milk and store operations comprise 3600 people) and Yum Brands (3000-3500 people, which includes KFC, Pizza Hut, Long Johns).—LeflymanTalk 01:48, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

And what about Ribcrib? The are a MAJOR company? LOL!!

  • Bama Pie? There products are only found regionally
  • BC and BS of Oklahoma? Never heard of them, and they sound as if they only serve Oklahoma, not major
  • Casillas Energy? Never heard of them
  • Excel Energy? Never heard of them
  • Flintco? Regional
  • Gallagher Bryce Insurance? Never heard of them
  • Helmerich and Payne? Never heard of them
  • John Zink Co? They are regional
  • Lowerance Electronics? Small electronic manufacturing company
  • Manhattan Construction Company? They only build in the Tulsa Area
  • Matrix services? Never heard of them
  • McElroy Manufacturing? Never heard of them
  • North American Galvinizing and Coatings? Never heard of them
  • Public Service of Oklahoma? They serve only Oklahoma
  • Syntroelum? I think they are out of business
  • Unit Corp? Never heard of them
  • Webco? Never heard of them
  • Vanguard? Never heard of them
  • I'm still confused as to why a company can only be considered major if you've heard of them. I'm sure there are plenty of major companies nationwide that you haven't heard of and that does not take away from that company's importance.--Nmajdan 19:48, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Ive been in Tulsa for a while and these are not MAJOR COMPANIES,most I have never heard of and the others small manufacturing type companies — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.245.163.1 (talk • contribs) 16:53, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

  • I would highly suggest this anonymous poster to stop injecting his uninformed personal opinion into an encyclopedic article. For example, Rib Crib started at 16th & Harvard in 1992, now has 40 locations in seven states-- according to one source [3] they have over 1600 employees system-wide and revenues of $47million-- which certainly qualify as a major Tulsa enterprise. Likewise, a simple search of the Internet reveals that the Bama Pie Companies have over 1000 employees, revenues of $200 million and have products sold in major retail/food stores worldwide. Hint: 13,000 McDonalds sell Bama apple pies. Bama received the 2004 "Malcom Baldridge Quality Award" from the U.S. Department of Commerce's National Institute of Standards and Technology [4] (Apparently the first Oklahoma company to get the award.) It is a major company. The other claims above are likewise un-researched opinion.—LeflymanTalk 01:48, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Again, if these are considered MAJOR companies for Tulsa, I see why Tulsa gets hit twice as hard as the national economy when it takes a dip.And the discussion board is for discussion, If you dont like my opinion, maybe you are not ready for discussion. On a NATIONAL LEVEL Tulsa has only a handful of Major companies, Williams, Quiktrip and Thifty Car Rental. Most of these companies might be considered "MAJOR" by Oklahoma standards,but so is a gas station in a town of 100 people. What you considered a MAJOR company is relative to Tulsa and Oklahoma and not what is considered a MAJOR company nationally or internationally. If you believe Mazzios is a major company ask people outside of Oklahoma,SW Missouri, Western Arkansas, what a Mazzios is, no one would know.And if you take a look at the Oklahoma City site they list Braums as a "smaller" company based in Oklahoma City, and Mazzios is smaller than Braums.

Someone else agrees with me- Business and economy. Is there any reason that can't become, say, List of major employers in Tulsa, Oklahoma, or at least just feature the top 10 in each category? As it stands it's nothing but a long list of redlinks, which says that these companies are not important or notable enough to merit creation of even a stubpage for them.

Why dont you revert the article when you agree it should be changed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.207.222.130 (talk • contribs) 11:56, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Dont accuse me saying Tulsa Sucks, somebody else said it, I would'nt disagree with him either, he seems to be correct in his opinion! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.207.222.130 (talk • contribs) 13:28, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Yea I do, I claim that if Mazzios is a MAJOR company for Tulsa, It only proves that Tulsa does'nt have much going for itself. OK I did say Tulsa sucks, I admit it, I think many people agree to. Tulsa is backwards, potholed, bigoted, depressing, boring and not very pleasant. Have you ever known people to come to Tulsa for vacation? Hell no!They go to nice pleasant places.This article on Tulsa is misleading, and sounds like a tourist brochure.Why dont you change the article instead? I might have said Tulsa sucks, but Im not the only one posting negative comments about Tulsa on the discussion board. I wont say Tulsa Sucks anymore OK?Im sorry

Back to the dicussion , These are not MAJOR COMPANIES

Ribcrib? They are a MAJOR company? LOL!!

  • Bama Pie? There products are only found regionally
  • BC and BS of Oklahoma? Never heard of them, and they sound as if they only serve Oklahoma, not major
  • Casillas Energy? Never heard of them
  • Excel Energy? Never heard of them
  • Flintco? Regional
  • Gallagher Bryce Insurance? Never heard of them
  • Helmerich and Payne? Never heard of them
  • John Zink Co? They are regional
  • Lowerance Electronics? Small electronic manufacturing company
  • Manhattan Construction Company? They only build in the Tulsa Area
  • Matrix services? Never heard of them
  • McElroy Manufacturing? Never heard of them
  • North American Galvinizing and Coatings? Never heard of them
  • Public Service of Oklahoma? They serve only Oklahoma
  • Syntroelum? I think they are out of business
  • Unit Corp? Never heard of them
  • Webco? Never heard of them
  • Vanguard? Never heard of them

Ive been in Tulsa for a while and these are not MAJOR COMPANIES,most I have never heard of and the others small manufacturing type companies.WHO ARE MOST OF THESE COMPANIES? THEY ARE COMPANIES WITH A REGIONAL PRESENCE PERHAPS, BUT A MAJOR NATIONAL OR INTERNATIONAL THEY ARE NOT.

What about the library system in the article, you think that every branch of the TULSA LIBRARY SYSTEM needs to be in the article? Or every award a hospital recieved? UPTOWN neighborhood? Ive never heard of UPTOWN Tulsa,the CLIMATE portion makes Tulsas' weather seem very pleasent, the truth is SUMMERS ARE BRUTALLY HOT, WINTERS ARE COLD AND WINDY, AND SPRING AND FALL ARE SHORT LIVED.this article is full of FLUFFINESS to fill a void that Tulsa lacks-very few real points of interest.And Local labels like Green Country should be excluded because no one knows what Green Country is outside of NW Oklahoma. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.207.222.130 (talk • contribs) 12:53, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I think it's really funny you're complaining about every branch of TCCL being listed, considering that you're posting from there. Well, at least when you're not posting from TJC (at IP address 199.245.163.1). And, you know, we know exactly what times of the day you're posting based on the logs. Oh, and there are 2-3 other IPs I've linked you to as well. Anonymity? Not.
Isn't there a setting where we can lock this (and the main page) to be registered users only? And why hasn't anyone suggested shunting some parts of this article into sub-articles? --D Wilbanks 02:25, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

So what if you know what time of the day I am posting at. Why do you care about that? the article is about Tulsa. And I am not the only person writing negative comments about Tulsa, so go investigate other people. Why are you investigating me? Did I break some law? I said Tulsa sucks, you are investigating me for that? I wouldnt worry about me, I would worry about the condition of Tulsas corporate presence, Citgo Petroleum moved to Houston, Sunoco Petroleum Moved to Houston, Vintage Petroleum moved to Houston, Occidental Petroleum vacated 24000 jobs in Tulsa in the 1990's, Phillips Petroleum moved to Houston, Wiltel got bought out, but who has filled the place of these MAJOR companies? MAZZIOS, WHICH IS A REGIONAL PIZZA JOINT? and RIBCRIB, A REGIONAL BBQ RESTAURANT? If the rose color tint hasnt wore of your glasses yet, I guess my arguments are futile. Maybe they left Tulsa because Tulsa is Lame and Plain, They dont call it the "Great Plains" for nothing!— Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.207.222.130 (talk • contribs)

But you're not editing the file. You're not contributing. You're just bitching. This is an encyclopedia, not a Tulsa Sucks forum. Can you define "major company?" How many employees? What's the minimum annual revenue? And you work under this assumption that all the people editing this file are these Chamber of Commerce lackeys. I don't live in Tulsa. I got out when I graduated from high school and never looked back. I live 2000 miles away in a better city. But I'm helping to edit this document. You're not. You're just a sad, sad person who can only talk about how "lame" Tulsa is.
Let me say it again: I don't live in Tulsa. You do. So, who is the lame one in this conversation?
In the words of my father, "Piss or get off the pot." Contribute. Change the page and don't editorialize when you do it. Or get out, troll. --D Wilbanks 19:59, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I have contributed to the article, I shortened it a bit, but it keeps getting reverted. I find amazing that the Tulsa is a little bit longer than the NEW YORK CITY, DALLAS, HOUSTON, articles. I dont think that is warranted.

First off, please sign sign your messages with the four tildes (~~~~) so we know who you are and can recognize your posts. About your message, while I do agree the article is a little long, some of those larger cities have a lot of "see also" and "main article" links whereas the Tulsa article has all the information in the main article; this is perhaps why it is a little longer. Any contributions you make are appreciated.--Nmajdan 01:51, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Please don't feed the trolls. --D Wilbanks 03:05, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Whats wrong, I hit a nerve? Tell me, do you only you agree the truth as long as it doesnt violate your view of Tulsa?

You still didn't sign your name. I want to see your edits so I can determine for myself why they were reverted. And you only chose to comment on insulting comment and not the constructive one. You should've answered the constructive comment and ignored the other.--Nmajdan 16:08, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Tulsas Roads

With more toll roads than any other state in the union, It is hard to believe that even with the revenue from toll roads, Tulsa and the State of Oklahoma have the worst roads in the nation.

Williams Co.

Williams energy company is rumored to be moving their headquarters to Houston Texas in coming years, They already occupy 40 stories in the Williams Tower in Houston.

Major league soccer

Somebody added to the article that a major league soccer team is coming to Tulsa. Is there a source for this?--Nmajdan 17:51, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

News to me. I can find no cite for this on Google News or on the MLS website. Last I heard they were adding teams in Toronto and the Philadelphia area but weren't considering Tulsa or OKC at this time. --D Wilbanks 22:44, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok, then I'm going to remove it. If somebody has a source, they can readd it.--Nmajdan 23:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

List of churches, libraries is gone

I'm taking the advice that is so often given. I'm being bold. List of churches- gone. List of libraries-gone. I've never seen anything like either of those in an encyclopedia, and they're unnecessary, so I took them out. Jedck 03:50, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

WHAT??? What have you done??? Seriously though, if somebody really wants that list, it needs to be on its own page. Like List of churches in Tulsa, Oklahoma or something.--Nmajdan 14:34, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Yah this list isn't really bad (seriously, I've needed a list of churches before). List of churches in Tulsa should be a good place for them. Other similar lists: List of churches in the United Church of Canada, List of churches in London, and List of churches in Fort Wayne, Indiana. Clearly most aren't going to be notable enough for their own articles, but some are (like Holy Family Cathedral, etc.). -- Ash Lux (talk | contribs) 03:39, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Look at http://www.churchangel.com/WEBOK/tulsa.htm for a starter list of Churches in Tulsa. And here's a list for Broken Arrow http://www.churchangel.com/WEBOK/brokenarrow.htm. If we do a list of churches, we might want to go ahead and have a seperate list for each city. -- Ash Lux (talk | contribs) 03:41, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I've started a list of churches on my page and am working to expand it using the list Ash Lux provided. I will start the article when I get a little further along. Here's the link: User:Nmajdan/List of Churches in Tulsa, Oklahoma.--Nmajdan 13:36, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Man, there are a lot of Baptist churches. I've gone about halfway through the website so I'm going to go ahead and create the article and I'll continue to expand it over time. I will be placing it here: List of churches in Tulsa, Oklahoma.--Nmajdan 14:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I would recommend that your well formatted "List of churches in Tulsa" be Moved to a "List of places of worship in tulsa" or something like that. That way you could include synagogues and mosques.--Paul E. Ester 02:53, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Please remember that Wikipedia is not a directory or repository of links. Having said that, inclusion of Tam Bao Buddhist Temple and the Hindu Temple of Tulsa would seem to be appropriate.--LeflymanTalk 01:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
I read your post as saying we should not have this list at all. So should it be deleted or not?--Nmajdan 03:48, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Opinions about tulsa

http://www.utulsa.edu/collegian/article.asp?article=1832 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.187.154.33 (talk • contribs)

Can we start the RFC process on this user? I'm really tired of this endless stream of "Tulsa sucks" material. Tulsa may well suck, but it's not NPOV, and this user has not contributed to this article in any substantive way. I think it's bordering on trolling. --D Wilbanks 02:26, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I didnt say Tulsa sucks, I said this is what people think about Tulsa! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.187.154.33 (talk • contribs)

Religion Section

I think there should be a section on Religion in Tulsa. Something covering the highlights like ORU/REMA etc. I don't have enough of the background but it seems to me there could be a NPOV narrative mentioning the highlights. Just looking at it as a economic perspective there is a lot to cover.--Paul E. Ester 02:53, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Street Networks

Needs to be removed, who needs a whole section on how the streets are situatated,

Some the external links should be removed too, The tulsa talk message board links to a site that hasnt been used in a year and hardly at that

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