Talk:Wrocław
Who decided alphabetic order had anything to do with order of other language names? Since it was officially "Breslau" for many years in "modern history", the German should be first. Was it ever officially a Czech possession? I would put that last in this English article. Who removed the pronounciation guides? That's useful info. Bwood 01:41, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Yeah, it was Czech for over 300 years and German for only 74. Space Cadet 02:31, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Right, Space Cadet. The city was part of the Holy Roman Empire from 1335 until 1806, so it was a Roman city for almost 500 years. And Poland once was a globe, wasn't it? I look forward to learn more of your history, my dear!
- Right, Sweetheart. If everything included in HRE was Germany then Bohemia was practically always part of Germany? Yes?
- Err... you don't know anything about European history, do you, Space Cadet? It is wrong to say that "everything included in HRE was German". The best example against this is Upper Italy, which was part of the HRE, but never German. On the other hand, Bohemia was indeed practically always part of Germany. The king of Bohemia was one out of seven electors who do determine the next king. Note that they do not elect the next emperor, instead they just elect the next German king, who then have to be crowned by the pope to be Roman emperor. It was the highest position in Germany for a noble to be one of the electors of the German king, and the king of Bohemia was one of them from the beginning. Please also note that in English language as in German language there is a difference between the words "Bohemian" and "Czech". If someone is Bohemian, he might be a German or a Czech. If someone is a Czech, he might be from Bohemia or from Moravia. Since 1306, except one single king, no king of Bohemia was an ethnic Czech. The capital of Bohemia, Prague, often was also the capital of the empire, the residence of the German king. The first university within the HRE was Bologna, but the first German university was the university in Prague. Until the 19th century a majority of Prague's citizen were Germans. Since 1626, German was the official language in Bohemia, before that point she has no official language at all..
Breslau and Silesia became property of the Bohemian King in 1335 and were past over to the Austrian Habsburg house in 1526. So you might say that Breslau was under Bohemian crown for about 200 years, but among these ten kings in 200 years only one single was a Czech. Breslau in fact never was Czech, not for over 300 years and not for 200 years. Breslau wasn't Czech for a single day. There is a difference between "Bohemia" and "Czech", and there was never in history a "King of Czech", only a "King of Bohemia". Furthermore, belonging to the crown of Bohemia does not means being Bohemian itself. Breslau of course was always part of Silesia, not part of Bohemia. When the King of Bohemia was a Habsburg, Silesia and Breslau were under rule of the house of Habsburg, that's all.
- Err... you don't know anything about European history, do you, Space Cadet? It is wrong to say that "everything included in HRE was German". The best example against this is Upper Italy, which was part of the HRE, but never German. On the other hand, Bohemia was indeed practically always part of Germany. The king of Bohemia was one out of seven electors who do determine the next king. Note that they do not elect the next emperor, instead they just elect the next German king, who then have to be crowned by the pope to be Roman emperor. It was the highest position in Germany for a noble to be one of the electors of the German king, and the king of Bohemia was one of them from the beginning. Please also note that in English language as in German language there is a difference between the words "Bohemian" and "Czech". If someone is Bohemian, he might be a German or a Czech. If someone is a Czech, he might be from Bohemia or from Moravia. Since 1306, except one single king, no king of Bohemia was an ethnic Czech. The capital of Bohemia, Prague, often was also the capital of the empire, the residence of the German king. The first university within the HRE was Bologna, but the first German university was the university in Prague. Until the 19th century a majority of Prague's citizen were Germans. Since 1626, German was the official language in Bohemia, before that point she has no official language at all..
- For clarity we have to remember, that before 1525 kings of Bohemia and some of governors of Silesia were Polish Jagiellons. Szopen 08:44, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I was only being sarcastic and you missed it, though you sound pretty intelligent. Next time I'll just go straight to the point for you.
"What is your point, Space Cadet?"
Oh, my God, you missed that, too!
Space Cadet 01:37, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This official Polish website lists several inaccuracies. It states that in 1741 Frederick the Great of Prussia changed the name to Breslau. A 1493 engraving of the city in the [[:Schedelsche Weltchronik|Schedelsche Weltchronik]] shows the city as Bressla .
It also fails to mention, that land between the Oder and Warthe river , such as Silesia etc had been given as landlien to Moravia, Bohemia by previous emperors, such as Arnulf of Carinthia .
In AD 995 by a patent of Holy Roman Emperor Otto III Silesia was attached to the see of Meissen under the archbishopric of Magdeburg. Soon after emperor Otto III and Boleslaw I Chrobry founded Breslau bishopric and Breslau city.
Boleslaw I Chrobry , son of Mieszko I , first piast ruler had conquered Silesia from Bohemia ,Moravia ( parts of the empire) and it was conquered back and force several times. For a more detailed history see : http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02761a.htm Breslau, also Moravia, Bohemia, Silesia .
Since appr. 1300 Silesia was directly under the emperor .
The name as published on old maps is NOT a reliable guide to the people or the language of a city. For instance, Franconia is not only the Latin but also the English name. If *I* look at most books in my office I'll see Franconia. Does that mean that the residents called it Franconia? Well, actually, yes, since they mainly wrote Latin in the period *I* care about, it does. Does that make them Romans? No. Franks? Actually, no. We in English-speaking history call them Franconians, to distinguish them from the Frankish tribes who set up the Frankish kingdom. All this is to say that Wroclaw/Breslau is not to be solved from old maps. --MichaelTinkler.
I rearranged this for clarity, and English. The former German name isn't the most important thing about a Polish city. Similarly, the entries for New York and Oslo don't start with "Former Dutch colony Nieuw Amsterdam" and "Formerly Christiana." Vicki Rosenzweig
user:H.J. -- you might as well stop removing the word "ethnic", because I'm going to replace it until someone gives me a good reason not to. There was no such thing as Germany in the sense that we know it today -- just Germans. Even your precious HR Emperor was not King of Germany, but King of the Germans. Any attempt by you to say otherwise merely points out your anachronistically nationalist beliefs.HK
Julie, first of all Breslau was not the former German name, Breslau is the German name.
The HR emperors were Kaiser des Heiligen Roemischen Reiches Deutscher Nation, or Holy Roman emperor of German Nation. In 1871 this became : Deutsches Reich, German Empire.
It is incorrect for you to constantly change every German name into a different language. Is this the Polish Wikipedia ? then it would be ok to speak of Wroclaw or Gdansk or whatever the Polish language that the Soviet Union Communists renamed the cities and localities to.
You are one of the ones, that always preach, this is the English language wikipedia, the German names must be changed to English names. Why then do you change them all to Polish (or Czech, or Russian) language names?
And you can keep the name calling to yourself. user:H.J.
user:H.J., I haven't ever called you names, more's the pity -- my psyche would be better off for expressing it. You will note that I left Breslau for most of the pre-1945 references, but since the article is on Wroclaw, it doean't make sense to rename it all to the German. Also, the name of the HRE changed a couple of times over its time -- and the first references were actually not in German, but Latin. And the Empire was originally a way for the Carolingians and later the Ottonians to lay a claim to lots of ITALY, as well as the prestige of the original Roman Empire. The word Nation is a fairly late addition, and even in the middle ages, it meant more a people -- not something geographical. Your understanding of these things is flawed at best, tainted by the 19th century and early 20th century scholarship of von Herder and Ranke. THey were brilliant scholars, but we've come a long way since then. We now know a lot about the various peoples -- and even groups of Germanic peoples -- than they did. also, the HRE didn't rule over everything technically in the empire -- if he had, then we could talk about the world as you imagine it. As it was,the weakest candidate was often elected emperor in order to keep him from interfering with the German princes, dukes, etc. Sorry, but here, as in so many other places, you're just wrong, you clearly don't want to learn anything that doesn't fit into your warped picture of European history, and I actually don't know why we all try to put up with you. HK
Notes
First written mentioning about Wroclaw according to my sources is from 1000, when Boleslav Chrobry founded bishopry there, at least according to www.wiem.pl szopen
- Confirmed. N. Davis quotes Thietmar's Chronicles – city called Wrotizla. Przepla 22:24, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
Found exact story about what happened in 1241. The population, according to my sources, was evacuated, city burned and castle prepared to defense. Tatars arrived, take the city, but had no time to siege the castle so they withdrew (and later defeat Poles at battle of Legnica). If nobody would came with sources backing that Wroclaw was decimated, i will correct the seemingly erroneus informations.