Talk:Falun Gong/Archive 16
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Archived discussions
- /archive1, 1 April 2003 - 29 May 2005
- /Archive2, 29 May 2005 to 30 July 2005
- /Archive3, 31 July 2005 to 20 January 2006
- /Archive4, 21 January 2006 to 2 March 2006
- /Archive5, 3 March 2006 to 21 March 2006
- /Archive6, 22 March 2006 to 10 April 2006
- /Archive7, 10 April 2006 to 25 April 2006
- /Archive8, 25 April 2006 to 26 May 2006
- /Archive9, 26 May 2006 to June 2, 2006
I reinsert my edits on origins
Yesterday I made edits "01:10, 4 June 2006 Fnhddzs (→Origins - add info. for the biography) ". But they were deleted without reasonable bases.
I cannot find the original of biography now. But according to my memory, your edits on that biography have inaccuracy. I also looked up Penny's paper. I could not even find "numerous masters" there. I could not find things like "very embodiment of Truth, Compassion, Forbearance" either even in Penny's paper. It is not in print any more. I don't think it is appropriate to put it here. Fnhddzs 17:19, 4 June 2006 (UTC) I remember it is 1 or 2 page biography in the last page of Zhuanfa lun (old version). Fnhddzs 17:20, 4 June 2006 (UTC) How could you guys say it is 17 pages? Fnhddzs 17:21, 4 June 2006 (UTC) Below is what I copied from Penny's paper (on China quarterly) on his notes of finding that biography. " http://www.compapp.dcu.ie/�dongxue/biography.html, downloaded on 9 March 2001. The “Translation Group of Falun Xiulian Dafa” is credited with the translation and no author is given. By 1 May 2001 it had disappeared from this site and I have been unable to locate another website on which it appears. All citations come from this text. Another translation is available in Chinese Law and Government, Vol. 32, No. 6, pp. 14–23. This translation is, in many ways, more readable than the falun gong version but as it does not have the imprimatur of the movement, the official version is preferred. The Chinese version of this biography can be found in Li Hongzhi, Zhuan falun (Turning the Wheel of the Law) (Beijing: Zhongguo guangbao dianshi chubanshe, 1994) pp. 333–345 under the title “Zhongguo falun gong chuangshiren, falun gong yanjiuhui huizhang Li Hongzhi xiansheng xiaozhuan” but has not been published in that book since 1996. An English language internet version of Zhuan falun, translated by the “Translation Group of Falun Xiulian Dafa” and dated 1997 has the biography listed in its table of contents but the relevant link leads to the message, “The page cannot be found” (http://www.nb.net/�boying/ZFL/en_zfl.htm and http://www.nb.net/ �boying/ZFL/Biograf.htm)."Fnhddzs 17:43, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
This bio was seventeen pages long used to introduce the Master as a saint to the public from 1995 to 1999. Before 1995 a shorter version was used. Why are you practitioenrs trying so hard to hide information about Li?--Samuel Luo 17:45, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the biography you referred to was the one in Zhuan Falun (please see Petty's paper). If you like to refer to other biographys, please say clearly. Why you want to hide Li's quotes on Canada lecture?Fnhddzs 17:51, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Don't make major edits to the intro
We don't have agreement on what the intro should be yet. I've just reverted a bunch of edits that weren't discussed here first. CovenantD 17:42, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Why people remove stuff without my agreement either? If the article owned by "we", who are "we"? Fnhddzs 17:44, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
ok. let's discuss the following edits of mine. People say it changed the meaning of the first paragraph. So what is the meaning of the first paragraphy supposed to be?
In Li Hongzhi’s Canadian lectures held on 23 May 1999 in Toronto, a question was asked to Mr. Li:
"I want to recommend to a newspaper that they publish the Master’s biography. Is this appropriate?" and he answered:
No. I don’t want to speak about my own situation. Nobody should. Because everybody wanted to find out about me there was a very, very simple biography in Zhuan falun. Now I had asked them to take it out. What I tell you about is the Law, everyone should study this Law. Have no interest in my circumstances! Just study the Law and that will lead you to consummation.
Fnhddzs 17:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
To be fair, if we are going to revert intro to an earlier version it is this long standing one 05:20, 4 June 2006. Changes have been made since this time without consensus. --Samuel Luo 17:50, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
The first two paragraphs, after my revert, are the same as when the page was last unfrozen, with one sentence added after nobody objected on the talk page here. The third paragraph of the intro is under discussion here. CovenantD 17:54, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
What do you mean by fairness? To be fair, the biography should not be put here at all. That will make the article clean and neat. Fnhddzs 17:52, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Samuel just reverted back to the complete intro that was in place when the page was unfrozen. I accept this revert as it does remove any edits that may still be in contention. CovenantD 18:02, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
No, the biography is in dispute. We don't like it be there alone without other info. like Mr. Li's answer. Fnhddzs 18:07, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Paragraph on numbers (3rd intro para)
Samuel and I have engaged in numerous reverts over this paragraph. I'm glad that the NY Times content has been accepted, but there is still more that is in dispute. Here are the two versions.
Mine:
- There being no membership or formal organization in Falun Gong, the exact number of practitioners is not known. A figure of 70 million was quoted in two NY Times articles, both published on April 27, 1999, before the crackdown began. According to the articles, this figure was the estimate of Chinese government. [2][3] On Thursday, August 24, 2000, the Chinese government presented a figure of 2.1 million. [4] Falun Gong websites state a figure of 100 million practitioners worldwide including over 70 million in China.[5]
and Samuel's:
- The Chinese government presented a figure of 2.1 million. [2] Falun Gong websites state a figure of 100 million practitioners worldwide including over 70 million in China.[3] A figure of 70 million was quoted in two NY Times articles in April 1999 [4][5] The exact number of practitioners is not known.
Differences:
- Mine mentions why the numbers are of dispute and states it first. The NY Times' statements are before the others and, rather than giving a specific date, it states that they were published before the crackdown. It mentions that the Chinese government's statement was given after the crackdown. Mine also mentions the source of the NY Times figure.
Can we come to a consensus on which version is preferable? Mcconn 17:56, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
The first version, but after substituting actual date for references to the crackdown and suppression. That puts the presentation of the numbers in chronological order and doesn't allow for bias in any way. CovenantD 18:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- I made a change in bold based on what you said. What do you think? Also, by saying "mine" I'm referring to the version I prefer. I'm not saying I wrote it. Mcconn 18:13, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- Um, I need to look at the references. I just realized that I haven't actually confirmed the information being presented, so caught up in style and checking reliability of sources. I also want to confirm the dates that are used. CovenantD 18:28, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- This sentence is a POV "There being no membership or formal organization in Falun Gong." Taking out this unimportant sentence also shortens the article "According to the articles, this figure was the estimate of Chinese government." --Samuel Luo 18:22, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- That's why I originally had a {{citation needed}} tag on it. :-) The first sentence of that paragraph needs to say what the figures are talking about. CovenantD 18:28, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Confirmed the People's Daily number and date, made the change above. CovenantD 18:35, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- What's POV about it? I think it's entirely relevant to state why we can quote exact figures. The reason we can't is because there are no members or formal organization to keep track of them. I don't think we need to cite something that doesn't exist unless there are others who say that it does exist. This statement is pretty undisputed. Mcconn 18:39, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Confirmed the two NYT articles, corrected the date to the 27 of August, 1999. Confirmed the ClearWisdom numbers.
Mcconn, here's what I suggest. We move the second NYT citation to support the "no organization" assertion, changing the wording give proper attribution. Thus the first sentence becomes, "There are no conditions for membership, and people can come or go at any time, says Yi Rong, an associate of Li based in New York, according to the New York Times.[1]" The exact number of practitioners is not known." CovenantD 18:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Summary Of the three intro paragraphs, this is the one that's had the most discussion. I think we're close to an agreement. So far we seem to be in agreement on including all three sets of numbers and a statement that the true number in not known. Does everybody agree to that? I think a straw poll might be in order. CovenantD 18:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Straw poll There should be a statement that the true number of practitioners is not known. All three sets of numbers should be presented, in chronological order.
- Support CovenantD 18:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
origin
The folowing statements talk about the bio itself rather than Li and the Falun Gong. It serves no purpose here. Can I take it out?
In Li Hongzhi’s Canadian lectures held on 23 May 1999 in Toronto, a question was asked to Mr. Li: "I want to recommend to a newspaper that they publish the Master’s biography. Is this appropriate?" and he answered:
No. I don’t want to speak about my own situation. Nobody should. Because everybody wanted to find out about me there was a very, very simple biography in Zhuan falun. Now I had asked them to take it out. What I tell you about is the Law, everyone should study this Law. Have no interest in my circumstances! Just study the Law and that will lead you to consummation.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Samuel Luo (talk • contribs)
- It addresses the issue of the legitimacy of the bio. IF the legitimacy of the bio is in dispute then that should be noted somewhere and this becomes relevant. IF the legitimacy of the bio is not in doubt then there's no need for it. That's my take on it anyway. CovenantD 19:39, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- No, you can't take it out. Your reasoning demonstrates a POV which, I assume, is meant to support Li's decision to pull his authorized biography from subsequent editions of Zhuan Falun. If this were a Falun Gong web page, it would be understandable that you wouldn't want to report the content of this biography. However, this is an on-line encyclopedia, and as such relevant information which is verifiable...and this early biography is certainly verifiable...needs to be reported. Frankly, how can you even suggest that an early authorized biography of the founder of Falun Gong isn't relevant to a report on its origins? --Tomananda 19:51, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- Tomananda, please assume good faith. CovenantD 20:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- Actually I do. I assume good faith, but also POV for all of us. The intent in my post above was to point out that even though we all have our POV's, the Wikipedia standard is not to allow the suppression of information in edits merely because of one editor's POV.--Tomananda 20:38, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- Ooops, I see my post was a total non-sequitor, since I am referring to the biography itself (as reported in the second paragraph) and not the related Li quote. My post was meant to appear above. Sorry about that. --Tomananda 21:32, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- Tomananda did a good job in tracking down Li's bio. Since the legitimacy of the bio is no longer in question, I am deleting those statements in question here. It makes the paper read better. --Samuel Luo 01:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I recommend that we have an independent section on Origins
Having read the Penny article and the authorized biography, I feel there is a wealth of material here that warrants its own section. The origins section could include highlights of Penny's analysis of the edit changes done between the first version of the biography and the shortened Zhuan Falun version. I believe all of this provides an insight into the origins of Falun Gong which won't be available any other way. I am here copying some excerpts from the Zhuan Falun (authorized) version so people who haven't been able to download their own copy can get an idea of the material:
A Short Biography of Mr. Li Hongzhi Founder of Falun Xiulian Dafa, President of the Research Society of Falun Buddha Science
(List of teachers)
- At the age of four, Mr. Li received personal instructions from Law Master Quan Jue, the 10th heir to the Great Law of the Buddha School which has been handed down to only one disciple each time, and began his cultivation of the supreme qualities "Zhen Shan Ren" ( Truth Compassion Forbearance).
(break).
- His first master left him when he was twelve. On the point of leaving, the master said to him, "A new master will come to teach you." The second master mainly taught him Taoist Gongfu. He began to practise boxing,sword-and-spear play and did the integrated cultivation of both external and internal exercise. The master would take him to an isolated place and keep him company when he was practising. When doing the riding stance, he would keep the posture for hours. He practised so hard that he often dripped with sweat.
(break)
- Soon his second master, for whom he had a deep affection, was also to leave him. On the eve of departure, the master said to him, I'm called Eight-Pole-Immortal. I'm wandering about without any destination. After I am gone, the only thing you should keep in mind is: Practise diligently
(2)
- Mr. Li got a job in 1972. That year, a third master - a master of the Great Way School with the Taoist alias of True Taoist came from the Changbai Mountains. Unlike his two former masters, this master wore no Taoist's robe, but he was dressed like an ordinary man. He never said where he lived. This master mainly taught inner cultivation.
(break)
- The master of the Great Way School was gone in 1974. Later, came a female master of the Buddha School,who chiefly taught Buddha School's cultivation principles and exercise to him.
(break)
- Over a period of about a dozen of years, he received instructions successively from more than twenty masters from both the Buddha School and the Tao School, with a different master teaching him at each different level of cultivation.
(break)
(Supernatural Powers)
- Now, Mr. Li's energy potency has reached an extremely high level. Some of his supernatural powers are difficult for ordinary people to imagine or understand.
(break)
- Mr. Li's energy potency reached an extremely high level. Above all,he has been able to see the truth of the universe, many more beautiful things which have existed there for a long time, as well as the origin, development and future of mankind.
(3) (break)
- With the growth of his energy potency, he came to understand mankind and human life better and better.
(break)
(Creation of a great law)
- He decided to create a great Law suitable for ordinary people to cultivate based on the great Law which had been imparted only to himself and which he had been cultivating alone for so many years as a means of achieving this goal.
(break)
- From 1984, Mr. Li started making a serious investigation into different qigong activities at home and abroad and attended a number of qigong impartment classes. He analysed the characteristics of modern people, as the Great Law, which would find its cultivators among ordinary people, should adapt itself to their way of life.
(break)
- Everybody looks forward to a happy life, but they meet with every kind of misfortune because they have lost their true selves. Therefore, Mr. Li was determined to create a great Law- Falun Buddha Law suitable for the cultivation of contemporary people (because the Great Law of Falun Cultivating the Buddhas Mr.Li had cultivated in the past was a grand-scale cultivation way and could not be popularized on a large scale). Beginning from 1984, Mr. Li devoted his whole body and mind to the adaptation work of Falun Buddha Law. The Law Wheels of the Buddha School, the Yin and Yang of the Tao School, and everything in the ten Directions, all find their reflections in Falun Buddha Law without exception.
(break)
- The design of Falun Dafa was basically finalized in 1989 . But Mr. Li was not anxious to make it public at once. .
(4) (break)
- Besides, Mr. Li also plants Falun into other parts of the students' bodies to cure their diseases or help them practise. These Falun never stop rotating. They adjust the practitioners' bodies automatically. In order to help the students grasp the essentials of the exercise, he also plants Qiji ( the energy mechanism) around the students' bodies. Like Falun, it circulates incessantly, guiding the students to the correct movements and enabling the energy in their channels to circulate along the Heavenly Circuit.
(break)
- Being enlightened, Mr. Li has a deep insight into the mysteries of the cosmos, which enables him to dispel the miasma in which the present-day world of qigong is shrouded.
Penny treats these biographies with great respect as examples of the form of religious biographies found in the Buddhist and Daosist tradition of China. The actual text is presented as a poem, broken up into five different chapters. If there is consensus, I am willing to work on a summary of Penny's findings in order to create an article on Origins which I think would be very interesting for readers of Wikipedia. --Tomananda 23:14, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
PS: When accessing this document on the Way Back archive machine, I found that there are two ways to get to it. You should get to a screen which shows horizontal years and under two of the years there are clickable months and dates for pages that were archived at that time. If you get to that screen, you need to click on one of the specific dates under one of the months (sorry, I didn't make a note as to which date, but I think it was January). However, I have also found that sometimes you wind up with a verticle listing of 865 pages, and many of those pages don't open. So if you're having trouble with this, the alternative URL that should work directly is: [2] --Tomananda 03:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- Well, I'm just here to artibtrate and increase the quality of these articles, so I'd rather hear what others think. CovenantD 03:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
The question is who wrote it?? and what is it based on? This was written by a journalist.. of what relevance is that?
Please show all the sources (website links etc) for all these materials. /Omido 09:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- Who wrote the authorized biography of Li Hongzhi? Why not ask Li? The point is that it appeared in copies of Zhuan Falun for several years and therefore counts as an authorized biography. The more pertinent question to ask is this: Why did Li decide to remove the biography from later editions of the Zhuan Falun? Why was it ok to publish that biography in the early years and then all of a sudden it became not ok? Li said in his answer he wanted people to focus on his Dafa rather than the details of his life. That's fine, but then why did he ever allow the biography to appear in one of his official publications?
- As to web pages, I have already given the link to the authorized biography which is an archived copy of a page on a Falun Gong website. It's the authorized version of the biography we are discussing now, so I don't see any point in tracking down sources for the other biography at this point.--Tomananda 18:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Removed abusive messages
I have removed some abusive messages on this talk page from Archaos2. See here and here.--MrFishGo Fish 12:58, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- And from a bunch of IP addresses too. I've semi-protected this talk page. If the article page and/or subpages and/or talk pages of subpages and/or user pages gets vandalised repeatedly, get someone to semi-protect those as well. (I can't after 9 AM PST, that is UTC -800.) -- Миборовский U|T|C|M|E|Remember 6/4! 15:36, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
New York times figure delted again, article says falun gong banned for "illegal" activities.... the intro needs to be made factual.. < Falun Gong (Traditional Chinese: 法輪功; Simplified Chinese: 法轮功; Pinyin: Fǎlún Gōng; literally "Practice of the Wheel of Law") is also known as Falun Dafa (Traditional Chinese: 法輪大法; Simplified Chinese: 法轮大法; Pinyin: Fǎlún dàfǎ; lit. "Great Law of the Wheel of Law") is a system of mind and body cultivation introduced by Li Hongzhi in 1992. Central to Falun Gong are the teachings of "Truthfulness, Compassion and Forbearance" and five sets of meditation exercises (four standing, and one sitting meditation).) The system has been growing in popularity world-over with the teachings translated to over 40 languages and practitioners present in over 80 countries.
On July 20, 1999 the People's republic of China began a Nation-wide Supression of Falun Gong. This has been considered a major Human-rights violation world-over.
There being no concept of organization of membership in Falun Gong, the exact number of practitioners is not known. Falun Gong websites state a figure of 100 million practitioners worldwide including over 70 million in China. After the supression began, the Chinese government presented a figure of 2.1 million. A figure of 70 million was quoted in two NY Times articles before the crackdown began.[29][30] According to the articles, this figure was the estimate of Chinese government.
Please point out anything non-factual or irrelevant to the introduction
Samuel and I have engaged in numerous reverts over this paragraph. I'm glad that the NY Times content has been accepted, but there is still more that is in dispute. Here are the two versions.
Mine:
- There being no membership or formal organization in Falun Gong, the exact number of practitioners is not known. A figure of 70 million was quoted in two NY Times articles, both published on April 27, 1999, before the crackdown began. According to the articles, this figure was the estimate of Chinese government. [2][3] On Thursday, August 24, 2000, the Chinese government presented a figure of 2.1 million. [4] Falun Gong websites state a figure of 100 million practitioners worldwide including over 70 million in China.[5]
and Samuel's:
- The Chinese government presented a figure of 2.1 million. [2] Falun Gong websites state a figure of 100 million practitioners worldwide including over 70 million in China.[3] A figure of 70 million was quoted in two NY Times articles in April 1999 [4][5] The exact number of practitioners is not known.
Differences:
- Mine mentions why the numbers are of dispute and states it first. The NY Times' statements are before the others and, rather than giving a specific date, it states that they were published before the crackdown. It mentions that the Chinese government's statement was given after the crackdown. Mine also mentions the source of the NY Times figure.
Can we come to a consensus on which version is preferable? Mcconn 17:56, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
The first version, but after substituting actual date for references to the crackdown and suppression. That puts the presentation of the numbers in chronological order and doesn't allow for bias in any way. CovenantD 18:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- I made a change in bold based on what you said. What do you think? Also, by saying "mine" I'm referring to the version I prefer. I'm not saying I wrote it. Mcconn 18:13, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- Um, I need to look at the references. I just realized that I haven't actually confirmed the information being presented, so caught up in style and checking reliability of sources. I also want to confirm the dates that are used. CovenantD 18:28, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- This sentence is a POV "There being no membership or formal organization in Falun Gong." Taking out this unimportant sentence also shortens the article "According to the articles, this figure was the estimate of Chinese government." --Samuel Luo 18:22, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- That's why I originally had a {{citation needed}} tag on it. :-) The first sentence of that paragraph needs to say what the figures are talking about. CovenantD 18:28, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Confirmed the People's Daily number and date, made the change above. CovenantD 18:35, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- There are several sources that can serve as citations for the fact that there is no concept of membership in Falun Dafa. Just like it wuold be hard to find the number of Tai Chi practitioners.. it is hard to find the number of Falun Dafa practitioners.
Dilip rajeev 20:41, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- What's POV about it? I think it's entirely relevant to state why we can quote exact figures. The reason we can't is because there are no members or formal organization to keep track of them. I don't think we need to cite something that doesn't exist unless there are others who say that it does exist. This statement is pretty undisputed. Mcconn 18:39, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Confirmed the two NYT articles, corrected the date to the 27 of August, 1999. Confirmed the ClearWisdom numbers.
Mcconn, here's what I suggest. We move the second NYT citation to support the "no organization" assertion, changing the wording give proper attribution. Thus the first sentence becomes, "There are no conditions for membership, and people can come or go at any time, says Yi Rong, an associate of Li based in New York, according to the New York Times.[3]" The exact number of practitioners is not known." CovenantD 18:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
my suggestion
There being no concept of organization of membership in Falun Gong, the exact number of practitioners is not known. Falun Gong websites state a figure of 100 million practitioners worldwide including over 70 million in China. After the supression began, the Chinese government presented a figure of 2.1 million. A figure of 70 million was quoted in two NY Times articles before the crackdown began.[29][30] According to the articles, this figure was the estimate of Chinese government. Dilip rajeev 19:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
the following version has no POV: In July, 1999, the number of Falun Gong practitioners in China was estimated by the government at 2.1 million .[1] The number of practitioners claimed by Falun Gong is much larger, with 100 million followers worldwide including over 70 million in China.[2]--Samuel Luo 19:35, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Dilip, any version that uses the words suppression and crackdown is not acceptable. See the discussion about New York Times numbers and other 3rd paragraph discussions for the reasons why using dates is NPOV.
Samuel, I know this is the version that is in place. It's already been discussed how to improve it. Let's not ignore all of that work. CovenantD 19:53, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Summary Of the three intro paragraphs, this is the one that's had the most discussion. I think we're close to an agreement. So far we seem to be in agreement on including all three sets of numbers and a statement that the true number in not known. Does everybody agree to that? I think a straw poll might be in order. CovenantD 18:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Straw poll
There should be a statement that the true number of practitioners is not known. All three sets of numbers should be presented, in chronological order.
- Support CovenantD 18:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- SupportDilip rajeev 20:32, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- Support Fnhddzs 20:43, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- Support Mcconn 18:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
- Support --Fire Star 火星 01:05, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Including three figures is fine with me, why Don't you show the revised third paragraph here? --Samuel Luo 21:04, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I want to make sure we all agree on what should be included before we agree on the wording. I'm just waiting on a few more people... CovenantD 22:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- I support the straw poll proposal as well. --Tomananda 22:19, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Now that we've had a chance to hear from people, here's what I suggest we use for the third paragraph. I've confirmed that all of the references are accurate. CovenantD 03:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Covenant's suggestion
- The exact number of Falun Gong practitioners is not known. "There are no conditions for membership, and people can come or go at any time," says Yi Rong, an associate of Li based in New York, in a New York Times article.[4]" A figure of 70 million practitioners was quoted in another NY Times article published on the same day, April 27, 1999. According to the article, this figure was the estimate of Chinese government.[5] On Thursday, August 24, 2000, the Chinese government presented a figure of 2.1 million in the People's Daily.[6] A Falun Gong website state a figure of 100 million practitioners worldwide, including over 70 million in China.[7]
- Haven't engaged much in the number discussion/debate, but this version seems fine to me. --Yenchin 05:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I strongly object to this POV statement "There are no conditions for membership, and people can come or go at any time," says Yi Rong." This paragraph should just provided the fact/figures presented by all parties. Also the Chinese government provided its estiate in July, 1999 on a Chinese Xinhua article. This article is not cited only because it is in Chinese and not availble on line. --Samuel Luo 06:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree, but the problem is pro-FG editors demand material in English and I am sure they will fight over anything that they can not get their hands on. They even deleted Li's bio for that reason. --Samuel Luo 06:55, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
- ConventD the FG figure is published on its "official website" this point has to be included. --Samuel Luo 06:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
- There is no "official website" for Falun Dafa. Mcconn 18:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I also strongly object to including that quote from a Falun Gong spokesperson. All that needs to be said is that no formal membership records are kept. Certainly e-mail lists are maintained and even though Falun Gong denies it is "organized"...how do you think they manage to get so many practitioners from so many different cities to show up to their big protest events? When President Hu was in Seattle, Washington recently, the Falun Gong organized hundreds of people coming from different cities, many taking chartered buses to get to that out-of-state destination. According to a relative of a practitioner who lives in Seattle, there are only a handful of practitioners who actually live in the Seatle area!
This kind of organizing is not possible without some kind of lists, whether they be called "member" lists or not. The same was true back when Falun Gong practioners were showing up in the thousands to protest in China. There is a definite leadership hierarchy among the Falun Gong volunteers. In a recent speech...I believe it was in San Francisco...Li actually talked about the practitioners who are "in charge" for that area. The idea that there is no "organization" of the Falun Gong is a myth. There is no formal legal organization, but there certainly is organized communication, as well as levels of volunteer responsibilty. I can provide the name of one of the Bay area organizers for the Falun Gong. Her name was recently cited by one of the San Francisco supervisors as a top local leader.
Also, once a practitioner has internalized Li's teachings, there is strong pyschological pressure for that person to remain in the group. Although no one is physcially constrained, Li has his disciples believing that if they do stop practicing Falun Gong some day, they will forfeit their one and only chance for salvation. Li warns them that if they stop cultivating, they will no longer be protected by him (or his Fashen) and bad things will happen, such as the return of illnesses or other bad things caused by demons or "the old forces." Of course practitioners will deny all of this, but there most definitely is a different POV than the one expressed by Yi Rong above. --Tomananda 07:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I think this edit proposed by CovenantD is fine with me. I don't see POV since it already cite Yi Rong from a quality source. Of course, Yi Rong's statement is his/her POV. But it is totally fine since we just report this. Right? Fnhddzs 07:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
No it is not ok to have a one-sided quote like that appear in the introduction. If we have that kind of POV appear as part of a general introduction, we will need to add a counter statement or quote. But then we will dilute the whole paragraph on material that is not needed in an introduction. --Tomananda 07:31, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
As to the "leadership", you can look up here[8]. You can see each area has a volunteer assistant who could be contacted especially for new comers asking help. As far as I know, the form is very loose and situations are very different geographically. In my area, the volunteer assistant has changed many due to relocation. Actually I think everybody is a leader and everybody has responsibility. "Your enlightened, original nature will automatically know what to do." said by Master Li.[9]Fnhddzs 07:42, 6 June 2006 (UTC) I understand in American culture, people expect somebody would walk out to speak. So sometimes there do exist such spokesmen, spokeswomen for Falun Gong. But I don't think that makes up membership. If you ask how many students enrolled in a University, there must be one. If you ask a list on who are practitioners, there is NO such a list. That's why people say no concepts of membership. Fnhddzs 07:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
- That is what practitioners say/believe, however it is a POV and therefore should not be included in the intro. Should there be a section call Falun Gong organization? --Samuel Luo 08:02, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Tomananda, most of the things you just wrote, are all your own opinions which does not mean anything at all. "This kind of organizing is not possible without some kind of lists.." and these kind of things are all your own opinions, how do you know it is not possible? Also, you seem to be a person who have really missunderstood the Falun Gong teachings, so your own opinions regarding the teachings can't be included as well. /Omido 10:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Samuel Lou, you say that it is POV when FLG practitioners say there is no organization. Then I say, please show me evidence that it has a organization. If you can't, then everything else is POV. /Omido 11:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
There is absolutely no such thing as membership or organization. Falun Gong is a cultivation practice.. and many practice it.. just like many practice yoga. Volunteers are just volunteers helping others learn the system. Dilip rajeev 13:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I've looked at the comments above and here's my replies and a revised suggestion.
Yenchin - You're a party to this so your viewpoint is welcome.
Samuel & Fnhddz - While the statement from Yi Rong is POV, the fact that it appear in the NYT means it could be used. I am, however, taking it out as non-essential. I've also altered the sentence about the People's Daily number so it doesn't imply that this is the first time the Chinese gov't has used the 2.1 million number.
Tomananda - same thing. The quote is out, substituting your wording "no formal membership records are kept." As far as your theories about organizing protests, well, I've got some experience in organizing large events. Often all that is needed is an announcement that something is happening and people will find their own way. That doesn't require a list of any kind, just a means of distributing the info, such as a website.
Omido - Please be nice and don't say that Tomananda's opinions don't mean anything. They can't be used in the article, but they have meaning.
Im sorry, that was what I meant, that they can't be used in the article, nothing else. /Omido 18:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
All the rest of the comments seem to be a debate about what constitutes membership, a topic for another section (not the intro).
Revised suggestion
So here's the revised suggestion. If everybody agrees to this one, we can put it in place today. Woo hoo!!! CovenantD 14:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
- The exact number of Falun Gong practitioners is not known.
; no formal membership records are kept. "There are no conditions for membership, and people can come or go at any time," says Yi Rong, an associate of Li based in New York, in a New York Times article.[10]"A figure of 70 millionpractitionerswas quoted in anotherNY Times article publishedon the same day,April 27, 1999. According to the article, this figure was the estimate of Chinese government.[11] OnThursday,August 24, 2000,the Chinese government presenteda figure of 2.1 million practitioners was presented in the People's Daily.[12] A Falun Gong website states a figure of 100 million practitioners worldwide, including over 70 million in China.[13]
Agree. But I feel "no formal membership records are kept" could be improved as there is absolutely no concept of membership... I learned the exercises using the website and I am a practitioner because I do the exercises and study the books -as simple as that. Omid heard about Falun Dafa from a webpage and taught himself the system using the videos and books on the FalunDafa.org website.. there is no concept of membership. It would be like saying "a Tai Chi member".. Overall, I agree to the paragraph. And I hope the new version is put up ASAP. Dilip rajeev 17:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Support. As for the issues raised, there's always more space to add/edit/discuss. --Yenchin 18:37, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
- I think this version can go up, but I also agree with Dilip. Why not simply say "there is no membership in Falun Gong"? To say "no formal membership records are kept" might suggest that there is some kind of loose membership, which isn't true. There's simply no membership at all. Hey, I used to skateboard a lot with my friends. We all liked skateboarding so we would often hang out and do it together (it's often more fun that way). Sometimes we even organized a big group of us to go to a skatepark downtown for the day. I guess that made me a skatboarder member? Mcconn 18:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, what is membership? AAA membership, IEEE membership, SIAM membership, whether free or not free, you must have registered it. But Falun Gong does not have this registration progress. Whether you are a practitioner is only decided by your heart and with no conditions. We do have volunteers to contact to help. But a website is also enough to teach yourself. So please delete "formal". Fnhddzs 19:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
- Since there are volunteer lists, email lists, and so on, it could be argued that their are informal membership lists. I think it works best the way it is. CovenantD 19:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
- Infact there are no email lists or anything of that sort. If you are willing to volunteer to help others learn the exercises, you can more people know by putting your name up on some website. Any practitioner can be a volunteer if they are willing to help.. you dont need yuor name to be on any website..And there are absolutely no email lists. Websites like FoFG have email lists for news-update... and not everybody sbuscribing to the FoFG newsletter is a Falun Gong practitioner.
Dilip rajeev 04:40, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
How about LAN party? People play games together? I do see they have online maps[14] with contact person/email indicating where they can find a party. So you think that is a kind of membership? Fnhddzs 21:44, 6 June 2006 (UTC) The fact is, there is a way somehow people find how to practice Falun Gong, but nobody keeps track on who come and go. Even practicing in a park together, people don't even ask each other's names (maybe only spies are interested in getting a list of practitioner names). In my understanding, Falun Gong does not have any form of membership according to the definition of this term. If we redefine the word, or use another word, we could describe such a kind of form of "no form":) But I would say NO on implying an informal membership. Fnhddzs 22:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Also please keep in mind that we are living in an Internet times. We are easier to communicate than before. But communications do not imply a membership. Fnhddzs 22:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
- I'm just here to facilitate this process. I'll change it if nobody objects. CovenantD 00:08, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
- this statement should be taken out "no formal membership records are kept." I don't think anyone can make this statement here since none of us represents the Falun Gong. Also as Samuel has pointed out the Chinese government's figure was provided on July 22, 1999 when the ban of the group was announced. The date has to be changed.--Yueyuen 01:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
- I think all numbers here are POV. We just report them. I think we should include Yi Yong's words. Fnhddzs 02:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Yueyuen, do we have a source for that July 22, 1999 date? It's gotta have a source and it's got to be verifiable. CovenantD 02:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
- Well, to avoid POV on either side, the first sentence can just read "The exact number of practitioners is not known."
Concerning Dilip's statement about no e-mails lists, we know that is not correct at least for the United States. Keep in mind that Li travels to many cities in the US to give lectures which are never open to the public and require a ticket for attendance. Practitioners themselves are not told if he will show up, but they are told about the meetings and travel arrangements ahead of time because often they may have to travel hundreds of miles to get there. There is no doubt that the Falun Gong uses large e-mail lists to communicate with practitioners as well as other groups. In a recent LA speech[15], Li was asked the following question:
- Disciple asks: We have been clarifying the truth and exposing the evil from the angle of human rights by regularly sending emails to mainstream society, governments, and organizations in different countries, and have had great results. We now have a database that contains millions of addresses. Some people think that this precious resource of ours should be used primarily for our main tasks, which are clarifying the truth and exposing the evil, while others think we should maximally utilize this resource by using it to send out other things such as event notices, announcements, Gala promotions, and communications on activities related to the advocacy of human rights in China, etc. This is a specific question, but it's very important, because if it's not handled well it could have a negative effect.
- Teacher: You first have to be clear about what you are doing today. You are saving sentient beings, so things that are unrelated to saving sentient beings are not among the things you need to do. Once you have told people the facts about the persecution of Dafa disciples and about Dafa, the other things are less important.
- Of course, these specific matters should be looked at case-by-case. Motivating them to join ordinary people's rights advocacy movements is not a responsibility Dafa disciples have. The media you run can focus somewhat on those activities, provide information on them to the public, and expose the vile CCP. There's one thing you must be clear on, though. The purpose of your existence is not for rights advocacy efforts; rather, the rights advocacy efforts have taken place to assist Dafa disciples in validating the Fa. (Applause) You need to keep your priorities straight! If you are promoting Gala tickets, that of course is meant to help them learn about Dafa and Dafa disciples. (Teacher smiles)
Notice three things about Li's answer:
- 1) He assumes the role of manager of his organziation by answering these types of very mundane organizational questions. He played the same role in China and issued many specific directives while visting his different Falun Gong centers.
- 2) Although he says that the priority use for these large e-mails lists should be clarifying the truth and exposing the evil, he also gives his approval for using these large e-mail lists for promoting events (other than joining civil rights organizations) and specifically approves a mailing for the upcoming Falun Gong Gala. (Can I get a ticket?)
- 3) Finally, Li tells his practitioners in LA that "the media you run can focus on" promoting the joining of civil righs groups. Essentially he is saying that internal Falun Gong events can be promoted by their own mailing lists, but those promoting other organizations, such as encouraging practitioners to join their local chapter of Amnesty International (so they can lobby for anti-China resolutions), do not justify the use of the internal e-mail lists.
Despite all the denials, the Falun Gong definitely has a kind of organizational structure, rather like the organizational structure of un-incorporated grassroots groups in the West. But unlike grassroots organizations which encourage bottom-up decision making and frequently elect their leaders, in the Falun Gong there is only one decision maker, the Master himself. --Tomananda 07:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Tomananda, of course he will answer when disciples ask him questions. He did not say: "Come and ask me these kind of questions". Disciples ask him questions because the disciples think their Master is wise, and also disciples does not want to do anything that can have a bad influence to Dafa, so they ask their Master if it is okey to go ahead with this or that. I don't see how this has anything to do with "membership" or "organization". /Omido 10:52, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Also, it is not a Falun Gong Gala, it was the Chinese New Years Gala, which was arranged and done by Dafa disciples. /Omido 10:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Tomananda, the only line in all of that that really matters is, "Well, to avoid POV on either side, the first sentence can just read 'The exact number of practitioners is not known.'" :-) All the rest, and Omido's reply, is best dealt with in the body of the article somewhere.
So, with Tomananda's revision of the first sentence, I think we have consensus. I'm making the change. CovenantD 13:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, I don’t believe there is consensus. Tomanda has given us nothing more than pov towards allegations of membership or email lists. Clearly the email lists the practitioner is referring to in the question above are those of VIPs or organizations, rather than of practitioners themselves. Like Omid said, practitioners ask questions related to problems they seek their Master’s guidance on. Since many practitioners are very busy working in various organizations to stop the persecution they often ask questions related to their work. This in no way implies that Mr. Li is some kind of manager or someone controlling all these things. As for mailing lists (newsgroups), I’m on a number of Falun Dafa mailing lists. Some local, some international. So what? This is to facilitate communication on various things related to what we may be concerned with. You don’t have to join mailing lists to practice Falun Gong. There are many practitioners who don’t even have computers. This has nothing to do with membership. Bottom line: there is no membership in Falun Gong. This is undeniable and no evidence has been presented to prove otherwise. This is the reason we don’t know how many practitioners there are in the world and it should be included in this paragraph. Mcconn 18:19, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Samuel, thank you for providing a citation for the July date. Can't get more official than the Embassy website.
Mcconn, this is as close to consensus as we're going to get without spending another week on it. Any further information can go in the article itself. If it's this contentious an issue, then it needs space to explore that and the intro isn't the place. What we have now is bare-bones and NPOV. CovenantD 18:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
- Covenant, I agree...the introduction needs to be as neutral and basic as possible. There are two sides to the issue of Falun Gong's organization, and I can picture a whole section being written on that topic alone. But none of that is needed or appropriate for an introduction.--Tomananda 22:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
- Put it up. I'm fine with it being up, but I think it can be better. As I said before there's no evidence or even reasonable claims to suggest that Falun Gong has some kind of membership or that the organization is more than very loose, but there are lots to suggest otherwise. I've given you first hand experience and it is reinforced in Mr. Li's statments regarding organization. Simply because a couple editors do not believe this doesn't mean that we shouldn't include it. It's not a matter of POV or neutrality. This is the way it is and it is a simple, basic fact about Falun Gong. I understand the desire to move forward and I also want to. I just think that this a very basic point, and there is little reason to not include it. I think this point is on the verge of resolution so can we move forward while maintaining this discussion? Mcconn 19:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not saying that it can't be included in the article, but I'd rather we didn't get bogged down in the intro. CovenantD 19:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
One last dispute on the numbers
Let's talk about the new date, July 1999, and the reference http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/zt/ppflg/t36570.htm that Samuel provided. Dilip, what do you think it wrong with it? CovenantD 17:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Besides the fact that it shows a November date. CovenantD 17:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
The figure was provided in July, 1999, but the statement is in Chinese. The November date is the the day that statement was posted, I am changing the wroding to make that clear. --Samuel Luo 18:16, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
- Adding words like "however" and "main" are not part of what we agreed to. Please don't change the implication. I've reverted to the last version we had consensus on until this is resolved. CovenantD 19:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
- CovenantD, I remember disagreeing using this statement “On August 24, 2000, a figure of 2.1 million practitioners was presented in the People's Daily.” See [16] This statement has no consensus among editors. Also “alleged” was added without consensus as well. --Samuel Luo 20:42, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
CovenantD, What is wrong with the following statement? “However, according to a statement posted on November 1, 1999 the membership estimated by Beijing was 2.1 million.” I can understand if you want me to explain why “however” is needed. But what is your logic reverting the statement back to this “On August 24, 2000, a figure of 2.1 million practitioners was presented in the People's Daily?” --Samuel Luo 22:14, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
- I don't have a problem with it. Dilip sent me a message about it, so I reverted until it's settled. I thought I was reverting to the last version we had consensus on. Do you want be to go all the way back to the frozen version? I think what's there at least represents some progress. If Dilip hasn't explained why he has a problem in a day or two, we'll change it to an earlier date. CovenantD 22:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
- Since we're talking about the same number estimate, I think the earliest appearance of that number...coming as it does from the Chinese goverment's own website...is better. --Tomananda 22:18, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
- I'm willing to accept any citation that the two "sides" of this issue can agree on. If it's the July date, fine. I don't read Chinese, but if there's agreement, I'll trust those who do. CovenantD 22:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Falun Gong's main/official website
Clearwisdom.net is the English version of Chinese Minhui—the Falun Gong’s official/main website. Li has stressed the authority of the minhui net: “On important matters, practitioners watch the position of Minghui Net. The purpose of posting my photo and the article 'The Knowing Heart' on Minghui Net was to build a trustworthy website for practitioners." This statement was included in an article call “On Important Matters, Practitioners Must Pay Attention to the Attitude of Minghui Net” published on July 14, 2000 on the Falun Dafa Bulletin Board.
I notice that two practitioner-editors objected to calling clearwisdom.net a “main” website of the FAlun Gong in the 3rd paragraph, intro. This is just another denial/lie from practitioners. As Li’s statement unmistakably points out the status of this website, it should be labeled as “main” or “official” website of the group. --Samuel Luo 23:13, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Minghui or Clearwisdom was mainly for cultivation experience sharing among Falun Gong practitioners. Most articles were written by practitioners. However, practitioners are just practitioners, humans on the way of cultivation. Not gods. Any views of practitioners cannot stand for Falun Gong teachings. Yes, the Minghui or Clearwidsom has been used as a website to release Master Li's new articles/talks. Master Li stressed its creditability on releasing his articles because, in my view, some people pretend they are Master Li and spread faked stuff such as "the Tenth Talk" of Zhuan Falun. However, this does NOT imply endorsing everything published on the website as Falun Gong teachings.
So Clearwisdom is not an official/main website standing for Falun gong teachings. Even falundafa.org are established by practitioners. Everything except the Falun Gong teachings originals cannot stand for Falun Gong teachings. On the www.falundafa.org [17], it is said
All of the content in this site – excepting the founder's writings – represents the ideas and opinions of Falun Dafa practitioners, and should not be taken as representative of Falun Dafa itself.
On clearwisdom website [18], it is said
Created and maintained by Falun Dafa practitioners, Clearwisdom.net is designed to serve both fellow practitioners and the general public with daily articles that provide insights into Falun Dafa cultivation practice, expose the harsh persecution in China, and report the news of Dafa activities around the world.
If you are new to Falun Dafa, we encourage you to first visit our introductory site www.falundafa.org to find out more about the original teachings of Falun Dafa.
In sum, ideas, understandings, writings, speeches of Falun Gong practitioners are not Falun Gong teachings. Fnhddzs 01:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
- Since the master stressed the importance of that website, and that his teachings as well as experiences of practitioners are shared in this website, is it wrong to call it the main website of Falun Gong? --Samuel Luo 01:18, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
- Honestly, Samuel? I think if it's controversial we should keep it out of the intro. Using the word main just isn't important enough to argue over. We can deal with it in the article. There used to be a section called Media. It needs to come back, I think, or maybe the Controversies article. CovenantD 02:27, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
It is controversial only because Falun gong practitioners are trying to conceal the truth. Anyone with common sense will see that it is a "main" website. I can not give in to their unreasonable demand. --Samuel Luo 03:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
- Since there is no concensus on changes, the intro shoud be reverted back to the protected version. --Samuel Luo 03:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
- Enough of this going back to the protected version. This straw poll shows consensus on having a basic statement about the number not being known and including all three figures in chronological order. These are the numbers that were present when the straw poll took place, so this is the last version to have consensus. THIS is the one that we revert to.
- The exact number of Falun Gong practitioners is not known. A figure of 70 million practitioners was quoted in a NY Times article published April 27, 1999. According to the article, this figure was the estimate of Chinese government.[19] On August 24, 2000, a figure of 2.1 million practitioners was presented in the People's Daily.[20] A Falun Gong website states a figure of 100 million practitioners worldwide, including over 70 million in China.[21]
- CovenantD 19:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Even FalunDafa.org introduces clearwisdom.net as the “main” Falun Gong website. The following statement is from FalunDafa.org:
- Clearwisdom.net: The main Falun Dafa web site for practitioners and whoever is interested in Falun Gong issues. It is mainly for telling the truth of Falun Gong, sharing insights and information in Falun Gong and cultivation practice, and disclosing the persecution in China.[22]
I hope this statement settles the issue. --Samuel Luo 19:17, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
ok. Thanks. I had never known that. It is only stated in the English (sorry I don't know other languages than English or Chinese) version of falundafa.org written by the website owners. I don't care it too much though. Fnhddzs 22:44, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Fnhddzs, does that mean that you agree to have it in the 3rd paragraph? Dilip, what about you? CovenantD 00:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- When the group itself calls this website a main website I don't think consensus is needed. Are we going to stop calling the Chinese government a authoritative regime if there is no consensus? --Samuel Luo 00:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- I just don't want another revert war over this. I want them to put in writing that they agree to this. CovenantD 00:47, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
I am ok except that I added a "A" before it. "A main Falun Dafa website" Fnhddzs 00:53, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Sure, it should say "a main Falun Dafa website." --Tomananda 01:33, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- Dilip, elsewhere on this page, has expessed his approval of the 3rd paragraph. We've done it folks. We have a paragraph that everybody has explicitly agreed to!! CovenantD 16:52, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
3rd Party Intervention
What we truly need, although contrary to major Wikipedia principles, is a third party to look into the issue of Falun Gong that has very little to no prior knowledge. This suggestion, being the only solution left in editing this article, is incredibly idealistic in and of itself. Debating about Falun Gong is currently more controversial than debate about the existence of Jesus. People on both sides will never reach a consensus, and as new back-up evidence continues to surface for both sides in this issue, it is really impossble to ever complete this article in any of our sentient lifetimes. Colipon+(T) 23:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
The 3rd Paragraph
The NY Times figure has disappeared one more time. I am reverting it to the version Covenant introduced. And deleting Samuel's personal website from the references section. Dilip rajeev 18:16, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Citing sources
I'm going to start revamping the References list based on the guidelines found at Wikipedia:Citing sources. I also want to add a short list of Wikipedia articles for people to read at the top of the this talk page. It would include stuff like Wikipedia:Reliable sources, Wikipedia:Notability, and Wikipedia:Verifiability. CovenantD 00:52, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
ok. try to work together with you all. Fnhddzs 01:00, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- Due to the instability of the article, there isn't much point in formatting them because they'll just get reverted and then you'll have to do it again. Waste of time really. Edit wars are easier with inline links. Skinnyweed 09:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Related Legal Cases
Template:Cawley v. Malin Cawley v. Malin - New York State Supreme Court, U.S.A. A divorce case filed on the grounds of fraud, adultery and mental cruelty as a result of espionage for the Falun Gong against the Chinese Government. www.courts.state.ny.us [23]
- Note - the court system does not permit hyperlinks directly.
You can search on court case reference number 24648/2003 I can fax you copies of the court documents if you insist. Also, Rick Ross has been retained as an expert witness. Likewise, I can fax you a copy of the fee agreement.
Dear Falun Gong members:
You can remove this section; however, you can not remove THE TRUTH.
Sincerely Chris Cawley
Plea to pro-Falun Gong editors
User pages of several non-Falun Gong practioner editors, as well as this main article page, have been hit again by apparently pro-Falun Gong vandal(s) today. A few days ago there was a similar incident, user pages and this talk page as well as the main article were all hit.
It goes without saying that vandalism is counterproductive for Wikipedia. As such, in the (hopefully unlikely) scenario that you might know who carried out or was behind these attacks, other editors and I hope you would advise them to stop their vandalism. Thank you. -- Миборовский 05:46, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
this user Redzsuckz has also vandalized the article. It was created earlier today. --Samuel Luo 08:11, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- It was blocked indefinitely. We can revert any change he makes without breaking a sweat, so he ends up wasting much more manhours than we will. Though it would be good if we didn't have to, which is where vandal-hunting bots come in handy... :D -- Миборовский 09:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
You know, that vandal really reflects badly upon you FLG folks. Zhen Shan Ren? Heh. Look, we'd really appreciate a page without vandals. So please, if you can do anything to stop it, please do. -- Миборовский 09:25, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Please do not add junks on the article
Fnhddzs 05:57, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- It has been removed. Now, if there wasn't that annoyingly (but harmlessly) persistent vandal this would probably not have stayed there as long as it did. ;) -- Миборовский 06:00, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Continuing with the Edits
Covenant.. Lets carry on with the job of scrutinizing material on the main page and cleaning up the article.
We have reached consensus on the 3rd paragraph of intro. It is hoped that nobody would change it.
The first and second paragraphs of the intro
The second paragraph said Falun Gong was banned for "illegal activities".. somebody again deleted the "alleged" word. I have deleted the phrase which is completely non-factual and and an unnecessary extrapolation. Dilip rajeev 15:59, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Covenant.. I think we must carry on the discussion of the first two paragraphs..
A few suggestions:
- Have a section on talk page for keeping paragraphs on which a consensus has been reached. That way a lot of arguments can be saved
- Set deadlines for discussing each paragraph on talk page.
Dilip rajeev 15:59, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- I think I want to move the 3rd paragraph discussion into /Archive 10. I'll put a placeholder in so they can be integrated as we finish other paragraphs.
- Already suggested one for midnight (UTC) for the second paragraph.
- CovenantD 16:56, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Li Hongzhi biography
Could somebody please explain why "In “A Short Biography of Mr. Li Hongzhi” which appeared as an appendix in Chinese Zhuan Falun from 1995 to 1999..." is still there? As I know, this biography was not a official Falun Gong material, also...this has no verifiable source, does it? If it does, I would like to see it. I am a Falun Gong practitioner and still have not even seen any bipgraphy. /Omido 19:16, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- Funny you should ask... I've just finished setting up the references for the Intro and Origins sections and the biography was one of them. You can follow the inline link or you can go down to the References section and find a full reference and link there. Hope that helps! CovenantD 19:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
That is a biography, not an autobiography. Also it is funny about the date from 1995 to 1999. I don't think that is right. It existed as of 1994. And it was removed since 1996.
"The Chinese version of this biography can be found in Li Hongzhi, Zhuan falun (Turning the Wheel of the Law) (Beijing: Zhongguo guangbao dianshi chubanshe, 1994) ... but has not been published in that book since 1996." Fnhddzs 20:00, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- Omido has a point there. The biography certainly appeared in a version of Zhuan Falun by a publisher in China. But thats something a publisher chose to add as an appendix and the material was written by some journalist. It really isnt of much relevance to the article.
Dilip rajeev 20:06, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
I would suggest it be removed from the origins part. It is not teachings. not related to Falun gong practice. not related to the article. It is not in press any more. It is out of dated. It is odd to put there. This paragraphy was not there before. Not a consensus to put it up. The article is in a warped shape, with an odd "origins" and lengthy "ethics". Fnhddzs 20:16, 10 June 2006 (UTC) I added more contents in the Origins. Everything was from the same biography. Fnhddzs 20:28, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- I knew when I looked at this one that it was going to be trouble...
- Omido, I've given you the reference.
- Fnhddzs, so what if it's a biography rather than an autobiography? That's not enough reason to rule it out. And, where did you get that quote you use? It could be important. Also, just because something is out of print is not reason to exclude it. A version of the paragraph was in place when the page was frozen, as seen here [25].
- Dilip, if it appeared in published copies of Zhuan Falun for multiple years, that tends to indicate that it's not a publishing mistake. Again, the fact that it was written by somebody else is not enough reason to rule it out.
- I think we should leave it in place for now and give Tomananda or whoever added it a chance to respond. We've only heard from one side so far.
- CovenantD 20:34, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
It is a biography and Li Hongzhi has not officialy recognized it. Further, of what relevance is a biography written by a journalist in an article of Falun Gong. Should it be taking up a major part of the page? An article on Christianity wont carry pages of criticism on Christianity... A page saying "Criticism of Christianity".. in itself is a POV if it takes up a huge portion of the article .. Anybody( with a strong POV + ulterior motives) can pull two sentences out of The Bible, put them out of context and say "elitism" and "intolerance".. and then get two books from the market to "substantiate" his claim. Dilip rajeev 21:06, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- Unauthorized biographies are still valid sources.
I'll grant that some of this may be more appropriate for Li's article than this one.
To use an example that's been cited here before Scientology has a criticism article and a pretty extensive summary right in the main article.
But that's starting to get into structure, and this section of the talk page is about Li's biography so I'll stop. CovenantD 21:17, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
If you don't like the stuff in the same biography, then do not use it at all. Fnhddzs 21:51, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- What are you talking about? CovenantD 22:09, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
You suggest removing the text I added from the biography. I think we cannot hide information if the biography is used. Either do not use it or keep full information. Fnhddzs 22:13, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
I've been busy with non-Falun Gong related political activities recently and have not been able to keep up with all these postings. Even though I was not the editor who added the paragraph about Li's authorized biography in the Origins section, I feel strongly it belongs there. Here's why:
- Early writings about the biographies of historical figures are definitely relevant to a report on their "origins"...in fact, these writings are likely to be more relevant than material that comes later, since over time leaders and organizations tend to re-invent themselves and modify their messages.
- The existing biographical records about Jesus were written by contemporaries after his death. The "gospels"...Mathew, Mark, Luke and John...were all written decades after his death, and the gnostic bible material was written a century or more after the gospels. These sources do not agree on historcial points, but nevertheless they are key historical documents for the life of Jesus. And religious scholars (eg: Karen Armstrong) generally give the most biographical weight to earliest writings for obvious reasons.
- The fact that Li had this early biography deleted from subsequent editions of Zhuan Falun is, of itself, relevant to his biography and needs to appear in Wikipedia.
- Although the Zhuan Falun version of the biography was partially based on an earlier version written by a journalist, it is by no means the same document. As Penny points out, there are significant differences between the longer earlier version and the edited (and changed) Zhuan Falun version.
- Penny has used the term "authorized" to describe the Zhuan Falun biography and for good reason. Practitioners may be reluctant to acknowledge the degree of control Li Hongzhi exerts over his publiclations, but that control is easily proven by many of Li's own statements. Here's a good example from Li's 1996 writing called "Awakening" in the Essential for Further Development:
- Disciples must remember: All Falun Dafa texts are the Fa that I have taught, and they are revised and edited personally by me. From now on, no one may take excerpts from the tape recordings of my lectures on the Fa, or compile them into written materials.
- Notice that Li sid that he revises and edits all Falun Dafa texts. Since the Zhuan Falun is Falun Gong's most important text, and the master said in 1996 that he reviews and edits the content of these books, how can anyone question the "authenticity" of that biography? The fact that the biogrpahy no longer is authorized by Li does not diminish it's relevance. In fact, I think it becomes more relevant precisely because Li had it pulled from subsequent editions of Zhuan Falun.
Finally, as Covenant points out, even unaothorized biographies can be used as sources for people's lives --Tomananda 22:19, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- That Bio was not written by people outside of the Falun Gong but the Falun Dafa Reseach Society chaired by Li. Also this Bio was written under Li’s authorization, he is the only one who knows his many masters and training. It was published in Zhuan Falun from 1994 to 1999 and provided info about the origin of the Falun Gong and Li’s wisdom and supernatural power. Falun Gong practitioners are again trying to conceal the truth. You guys are abunch of liers --Yueyuen 01:10, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- As far as I know, it wasnt written by the research society but by a journalist. None of the sources say the research society wrote it.[26]. Using the biography, is alright with me but just pointing out. Dilip rajeev 04:38, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- Yueyuen, NO personal attacks! We get enough of that from anonymous vandals, we don't need it from each other. CovenantD 01:25, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
ok. Let's use the biography. Please do NOT delete my edits! They are all from the same biography. Fnhddzs 04:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Origins v History
As I said, please do NOT delete the edits fromt the same biography! Why you want to hide information ? Fnhddzs 19:21, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- I don't know about the others, but I told you to take it to the correct article, History of Falun Gong. Origins deals with how it came into being. History is what happens after it's begining. That's not my opinion, that's the definition. CovenantD 19:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't care much the structure. I care exercising the same standard. If you put them in the history. Put them ALL. Otherwise, keep them ALL. Thanks. Fnhddzs 19:45, 11 June 2006 (UTC) Exactly, it is about how it came into being. It fits beautifully in the Origins. The age 4 or 8 stories have less relation with Falun Gong's origins.Fnhddzs 19:49, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- For the record, I've read the first English translation of Zhuan Falun which has Mr. Li's biography. According to the related discussion, there are apparently two versions. I'm not sure if the one I read is the same as the one we're using. If it is, then I have no quams with using this information responsibly. If it's included as a section of the book, then it's acknowledged by Mr. Li. Mcconn 15:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Article structure
Now that we've had some success on finding agreement on a paragraph of the intro, do you think we should look at the structure of the article again? Many of the daughter articles have been created and editing is going on in them, but we should decide which ones are good and which ones need to be renamed or combined or split. I think it's time, if not now then when we finish the second paragraph. CovenantD 20:34, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- It's important to look at the other articles too, but I recommend we at least try to finalize what we have agreed to in the introduction section while the topics are fresh in everyones' mind. Could you just post below what you conisider to be the approved text, or did you do that above and maybe I missed it. Also, I'd like to finish the second paragraph first --Tomananda 22:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- The only one we've agreed on is the 3rd paragraph and that's already in the article. The discussion for the 1st and the 2nd are somewhere above this. I can refactor so that they're at the bottom again if people want. CovenantD 22:41, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- Yeah, if you could sort of put it all together so we can see where we're at, that would help at least me and probably others as well. --Tomananda 05:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Back to the intro
We're still trying to finalize wording on the three paragraphs of the intro. I'm linking to the relevant parts of this talk page - please add your comments there. Let's get this done folks. CovenantD 18:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
agree, let's only make changes after reaching agreement here. To show my good faith, I am adding the NY Times figure to the third paragraph. I am sure pro-FG editors woud not have problem with this. --Samuel Luo 19:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
My Suggestion
Falun Gong (Traditional Chinese: 法輪功; Simplified Chinese: 法轮功; Pinyin: Fǎlún Gōng; literally "Practice of the Wheel of Law") is also known as Falun Dafa (Traditional Chinese: 法輪大法; Simplified Chinese: 法轮大法; Pinyin: Fǎlún dàfǎ; lit. "Great Law of the Wheel of Law") is a system of mind and body cultivation introduced by Li Hongzhi in 1992. Central to Falun Gong are the teachings of "Truthfulness, Compassion and Forbearance" and five sets of meditation exercises (four standing, and one sitting meditation).) The system has been growing in popularity world-over with the teachings translated to over 40 languages and practitioners present in over 80 countries. Dilip rajeev 19:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
The following version has no POV:
Falun Gong (Traditional Chinese: 法輪功; Simplified Chinese: 法轮功; Pinyin: Fǎlún Gōng; Gwoyeu Romatzyh: Faaluen Gong; literally "Practice of the Wheel of Law") is also known as Falun Dafa (Traditional Chinese: 法輪大法; Simplified Chinese: 法轮大法; Pinyin: Fǎlún dàfǎ; lit. "Great Law of the Wheel of Law") is a system of mind and body cultivation introduced by Li Hongzhi in 1992. Falun Gong refers to five sets of meditation exercises (four standing, and one sitting meditation).) Falun Dafa refers to a set of religious dogma which teaches that Li is the one who atones the sins of all sentient beings and provides salvation to humankind.--Samuel Luo 19:35, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay, looking at the differences - Samuel, what do you consider POV about the first version? What is said that is opinion?
Dilip, would you disagree with the last sentence of Samuel's version?
- CovenantD 19:47, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- The name Falun Dafa doenst refer to the teachings, It is the name of the cultivation system.Dilip rajeev 20:35, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Dilip: Li says his Dafa (literally translated great law) is judging all people during this period of Fa-rectification. To say that Dafa is "the name of the cultivation system" conceals the fundamental teaching of the Dafa, which is about moral judgment and salvation. If you want, suggest alternative wording for that last sentence, but the wording must not obscure the fundmental teaching of Li Hongzhi, which is that his Dafa is judging people and he (and his Dafa) are the only way to obtain salvation.
Also, just to make this point further, here are two quotes from what Li says about the Dafa:
- Dafa is the Fa (Law) of the cosmos, and Dafa has created all beings in the cosmos. “Using at Will” (June 28, 2000 ) in Essentials for Further Advancement II, item 12.
- I am telling you now that Dafa belongs to me, Li Hongzhi. It is taught to save you and spoken from my mouth. “Awakening” (May 27, 1996) in Essentials for Further Advancement I
Given these quotes, and many others I can produce from Li himself, it would not be honest to report that Dafa is the name of a cultivation system. --Tomananda 21:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- It is important that this paragraph distinguish between Falun Gong and Falun Dafa. The general public doesn't know that the exercises (Falun Gong) are not as important as Li's teachings on salvation (which he alone provides) and morality, which is his "Dafa" or "great law." Li does say he atones for eveyone's sins and is the only one offering salvation to all sentient beings at this time. That is the fundamental message of the Falun Gong. How exactly to word that can be debated, but some version of Samuel's last sentence is essential.--Tomananda 20:19, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
This sentence is a POV in my opinion. "The system has been growing in popularity world-over with the teachings translated to over 40 languages and practitioners present in over 80 countries." --Samuel Luo 20:55, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
It's not only POV, it is a piece of self-promotion that does not belong in an introductory statement. --Tomananda 22:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- Aha! I get it. It's the bit about the growing popularity world-over, isn't it? How about if that were taken out and it read, "The teachings have been translated into over 40 languages...." I think it is relevant to show the extent of it's reach, in a NPOV and factual way. Citing numbers is the best way to do that, assuming we can find numbers that we agree on. CovenantD 22:15, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- Fine with me.--Tomananda 00:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Central to Falun Gong?
Not just the five sets of exercies. The most important (I think) is the teachings. Actually, it is said in the Zhuan Falun Talk One[27]
In intellectual circles there’s always been the question of whether matter is primary or mind is primary. They’ve been talking about this and debating it for a long time. I’m going to tell you, in reality, matter and mind are one and the same.
Fnhddzs 02:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
In the book Zhuan Falun, both the terms "Falun Gong" and "Falun Dafa" are used. I could find quotes later.
I am surprised to see this article splits Falun Gong and Falun Dafa. It is not true. Falun Gong is a mind and body double cultivation system. Falun Gong is also called Falun Dafa. In Answers to Commonly Asked Questions on the www.falundafa.org website,
Q: What is Falun Dafa, or Falun Gong? A: Falun Dafa, also known as Falun Gong, is an ancient practice for mind and body, originating in pre-historic China. The practice involves some slow, gentle movements and a meditation. It is easy to learn, enjoyable to practice, and free of charge. A central component of Falun Gong practice is studying the universal principles of truthfulness, benevolence, and tolerance.
Also in falundafa.org website [28], it is also said "Falun Gong (also called Falun Dafa) is an ancient form of qigong, the practice of refining the body and mind through special exercises and meditation. " Fnhddzs 01:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Falun Dafa and Falun Gong are used interchangably amongst practitioners. A believe that the name "Falun Gong" was adopted to fit in with or be similar to the names of other qigongs, which all ended with the word "gong" (referring to exercises). "Gong" here does literally refer only to the exercises, which is one reason why most practitioners use "Falun Dafa" more often, but although that's the literal meaning it has basically taken on the same meaning as "Falun Dafa" in use. Mcconn 16:55, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
- I think this sentence (“religious dogma which teaches that Li is the one who atones the sins of all sentient beings and provides salvation to humankind”) is included in the introduction because it is simply put and is very grand. However, as grand as the statements may be, they’re not central enough to be included in the introductory paragraph. How does a person practice Falun Dafa? He does the exercises, studies Mr. Li’s teachings (with Zhuan Falun as the core), and diligently tries to improve his moral character and let go attachments by applying the teachings. This is how you practice Falun Dafa and this is what Mr. Li’s teachings are about. That sentence should talk about what Falun Dafa is, not about grand statements made by Mr. Li. In addition, whether Falun Gong is a religion is a matter of opinion and dispute, but no one will deny that it’s spiritual. So “spiritual” is a better term than “religious”. Also whether it is “dogma” is also a matter of opinion and dispute, but they are clearly “teachings”. So “teachings” is better than “dogma”. Here is my suggestion:
- Falun Gong (Traditional Chinese: 法輪功; Simplified Chinese: 法轮功; Pinyin: Fǎlún Gōng; Gwoyeu Romatzyh: Faaluen Gong; literally "Practice of the Wheel of Law"), also known as Falun Dafa (Traditional Chinese: 法輪大法; Simplified Chinese: 法轮大法; Pinyin: Fǎlún dàfǎ; lit. "Great Law of the Wheel of Law"), is a system of mind and body cultivation introduced by Li Hongzhi in 1992. Central to Falun Gong are five sets of meditation exercises (four standing, and one sitting meditation) and a set of spiritual teachings which lay emphasis on moral improvement according to the principles of Truth, Compassion and Forbearance. Falun Gong is practiced in approximately 80 countries and the teachings have been translated into over 40 languages. Mcconn 18:13, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
- Agree with the above suggested by Mcconn. Hi, other editors, please express your opinions on the first paragraph. Thanks. Fnhddzs 02:23, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
- AgreeDilip rajeev 18:02, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Dilip's suggestion
On July 20, 1999 the People's republic of China began a Nation-wide Supression of Falun Gong. This has been considered a major Human-rights violation world-over. Dilip rajeev 19:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
The following verion provides more info:
Falun Gong has been the focus of international controversy since the government of the People's Republic of China began a nationwide suppression of Falun Gong on July 20, 1999 for its illegal activities. The Falun Gong came to the attention of the Chinese government when 10,000 practitioners protested peaceful at Zhongnanhai the compound of Chinese top leaders on April 25, 1999.--Samuel Luo 19:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Dilip, your version is a bit skimpy and could be seen as POV because of that.
Samuel, isn't this the version currently in place?
- CovenantD 19:49, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
One thing I want to get settled ASAP is including the word alleged in front of illegal activities. Can we get a show of hands? CovenantD 22:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- Also, we don't know the CCP's true intentions for the suppression. I think it's actually much more complicated than that. So we should say something like "the Chinese government claims...". So unless this change is made I don't support. Mcconn 18:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
- Support CovenantD 22:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- Unless there are further reports of the trials of those who were arrested at least in the Tianjin Incident, I support the usage o the word. --Yenchin 05:28, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I support introducing the word "alleged" ASAP. But, in my opinion using the word "illegal" unnecessary...The reader is completely unaware what these alleged illegal activity is. And we also need to mention that the supression is considered a major violation of Human Rights, world over. Dilip rajeev 11:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm reposting my above comment (altered version) so that it doesn't get missed. We don't know the CCP's true intentions for the suppression. I think it's actually much more complicated than that. So rather than simply say that it was suppressed for "alleged illegal activities" we should say something like "the Chinese government claims... alleged illegal activities". So unless this change is made I don't support. Mcconn 04:20, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I would like to point out that the April 25, 1999 is an appeal, instead of a protest. Here is an article from clearwisdom.net (a Falun Gong practitioners' website)[29]
Over the past several years, the Mainland police have spread lies on many occasions that "so many people went to protest, any country would suppress them." Many people have been misled by the media, and believed that Falun Gong practitioners' April 25 "besieging Zhongnanhai" lead to later suppression. In fact, firstly, "April 25" was not besieging the government, but a peaceful appeal, completely conforming to the law and reason. Secondly, Falun Gong practitioners' appeal was peaceful and out of their kindness, it was their trust to the government but not opposing the government. The third point, on the day of "April 25," with direct concern from Premier of State Council, Falun Gong practitioners and Appeals Office leaders had a meeting. They reached a common understanding and reasonably resolved the violent arrest of dozens of innocent Falun Gong practitioners in Tianjin.
Fnhddzs 05:31, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Mcconn's suggestion
I was just about to make this change in the main page since nobody has responded to mine and Fnhddzs' posts, but I changed my mind and decided it to post it here first. If no one responds after a few hours then I'll consider it ok and put it into the main page.
- Falun Gong has been the focus of international controversy since the government of the People's Republic of China began a nationwide suppression of Falun Gong on July 20, 1999'. The government claims that it initiated the suppression in reponse to Falun Gong's alleged illegal activities.' Falun Gong came to the attention of the Chinese government when 10,000 practitioners protested peaceful at Zhongnanhai the compound of Chinese top leaders on April 25, 1999.
What do you think? (actually do we have source that verifies this claim?)Mcconn 18:30, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Samuel's suggestion
- There is no consensus in adding "alleged" to this paragraph but I am not going to take it out yet. I propose using the following to replace the existing version. Finishing this paragraph by mentioning the group’s popularity introduces the next paragraph.
Falun Gong has been the focus of international controversy since the government of the People's Republic of China began a nationwide suppression of Falun Gong on July 20, 1999. The Chinese government claims to have banned the group for its illegal activities. [30] The Falun Gong claims the ban a result of president Jiang Zemin’s personal jealousy of the group’s popularity.[31]
The use of "illegal activites" must be avoided. We also need to mention that the supression has been considered a major human-rights violation. The reader doesnt know what the "alleged illegal activity" is. Dilip rajeev 20:19, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
- We should be able to accept Samuel's new wording since it simply reports both POV's and even provides links for people to get more information. We don't need any more than this in the introduction, but can introduce much more in the crack-down section. (By the way, I don't think we ever agreed to the change in title for that page from Crackdown to Persecution.) --Tomananda 22:43, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
- We didn't. In fact, I believe we were at the point where several people felt it was inherently POV. (I've been waiting for somebody to bring it up...) CovenantD 22:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
- OK, but can people at least to agree to one editing principle, which is that when there seems to be irreconcilable differences of opinion on how to report something, that we should try to agree to a "two sentence" strategy such as shown above? One sentence would succintly report one position (with a link) and the other would report the counter position (also with a link.) Unless I am missing something here, that approach should work well. If we agree to the approach in general, then we just need to agree if the wording for each sentence is reasonable and verifiable, such as Samuel has suggested above. --Tomananda 01:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
- Hmm. Samuel's new wording is good to me except the use of "illegal activites". Definitely not acceptable on that. Fnhddzs 05:47, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
- Hmm, Fnhddzs how about "peaceful activities" would that satisfy you? Please don't miss the magic word "claims." --Samuel Luo 06:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
A few things.
- The date of the first reference is 22 July, 1999, not 20 July.
- In the last sentence, President should be capitalized.
- Dilip may be right in saying that the "activities" could be expanded on in a completely NPOV manner, by using the wording from the announcement. Thus the second sentence becomes,
- The Chinese government claims to have banned the
group for its illegal activitiesResearch Society of Falun Dafa for not been registered according to law, advocating superstition and spreading fallacies, hoodwinking people, inciting and creating disturbances, and jeopardizing social stability.[32]
- CovenantD 14:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Regarding why CCP persecutes Falun Gong, it seems to me that Master Li[33] said "why the malevolent CCP wants to persecute Falun Gong" was addressed in "Nine Commentaries on the X Party". So we may refer to these two articles We Are Not “Getting Political”by Master Li and On the Collusion of Jiang Zemin and the Chinese Communist Party to Persecute Falun Gong in "Nine Commentaries". Fnhddzs 20:13, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Hey, folks. How about the 2nd paragraph? I don't agree with the current version. it is not a protest in Zhongnan hai. It was an appeal. Fnhddzs 01:26, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Fnhddz, Samuel had asked you a question just a few posts above. If you answer that, we may have a version that both side agree on. CovenantD 02:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, CovenantD. Is the question about using "peaceful activities"? it seems good to me. The Research Society of Falun Dafa quitted from Qiqong Research Association long time before 1999. That was not an issue. Before April 25, 1999, many practitioners in Tianjin were arrested and Tianjin's upper level administration is Beijing since Tianjin does not belong to a province. So in the normal channel, the next step is to go to Beijing to appeal. Everything was legal. The Appeal office is quite close to Zhongnanhai. Practitioners in the beginning just scattered on the side streets. Policemen said why not you folks circled around the wall of the Zhongnanhai? It seemed a trick. Finally Premier Zhu Rongji happened to see practitioners and promised to release the practitioners in Tianjin. Then everything was all right. Then the Xinhua agency published an artile restating China's policy to Qiqong: three-no policy. (No stick-beating, no debation, no report 不打棍子、不争论、不报导). sorry that is just my direct translation. However, things changed later when Jiang, Zemin knew this. On July 22, 1999, a statement was released funnily by China Ministry of Civil Affairs (中国民政部)[34] stating that Falun Gong illegal.
Anyway, on April 25, the appeal was peaceful and fruitful. Things changed later and had nothing to do with that appeal although the later government lies said that justified the ban. Fnhddzs 23:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
In Master Li's talk [http://www.falundafa.org/book/eng/jw_88.htm Teaching the Fa at the 2002 Fa Conference in Philadelphia, U.S.A. November 30, 2002] The true reason seems as below:
So what was the goal of this evil persecution? Was it to protect the regime? Not at all, really. Saying that Falun Gong poses a threat to China’s regime is just a huge lie that’s spread by the evil. A lot of people have asked me, and a lot of people have asked my disciples this too: what’s the true reason for this persecution? Just a buffoon’s jealousy. Since it has power it’s able do something like this. That might sound pretty ridiculous, or maybe hard to believe—how could something like this happen to mankind, right? But it really has happened. This persecution has happened, as absurd as it may be, due to that buffoon being driven by its twisted jealousy. That’s exactly the reason. That’s the real cause we see here in human society.
Fnhddzs 23:22, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Dear all: I am still waiting on a solution on this paragraph. It is not in a right shape! Fnhddzs 00:58, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Second paragraph:
- Falun Gong has been the focus of international controversy since the government of the People's Republic of China began a nationwide suppression of Falun Gong on July 20, 1999. The Chinese government claims to have banned the group for its illegal activities. [35] The Falun Gong claims the ban a result of president Jiang Zemin’s personal jealousy of the group’s popularity.[36]
I support this version. It introduces the ban and and includes claims from both sides. --Samuel Luo 06:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Dilip's 2nd suggestion
Falun Gong has been the focus of international controversy since the government of the People's Republic of China began a nationwide suppression of Falun Gong on July 20, 1999, which has been considered a major Human-Rights violation world-over[37][38][39][40][41][42][43][44]. Concerns were triggered when 10,000 practitioners appealed peacefully close to Zhongnanhai the compound of Chinese top leaders on April 25, 1999.
Hi, Folks: Please look at this version. There is no consensus on the current version. It cannot stay there forever. Can we set a deadline? Fnhddzs 06:08, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- I'm in favor of a deadline. I'd say no more than 5 days, so by midnight (UTC) Wednesday? CovenantD 13:11, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
SupportNo Opinion I thought I was supporting the deadline. CovenantD 13:11, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- :-D .. i agree to the deadline too..
- Support. I agree to the version above but I believe that mentioning that this has been considered a major Human-Rights violation, world-over is quite central to the article. I am not sure how to phrase the sentence.Dilip rajeev 18:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- I've made a change. I would add more citations. I would agree that the deadline of Midnight Wednesday. How about others? Anyway we need a deadline. Fnhddzs 18:44, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- Added one more source[45].. H Con Res 188Dilip rajeev 20:21, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Pulling it all together
It looks like everybody agrees on the opening line - "Falun Gong has been the focus of international controversy since the government of the People's Republic of China began a nationwide suppression of Falun Gong on July 20, 1999." That's a good begining. It seems the way to go now is to find out what we don't want.
We have three versions to consider. Each of them contain something the others don't. So let's ask this question; is there anything in any of those versions that I don't want in there? Cause what I'm thinking is, if nobody has strong feelings about keeping something out we could just put it all in. There's nothing that seems to contradict, it just emphasizes different aspects. I want to hear from each of you. CovenantD 06:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- I think Samuel's version plus a sentence or slight mentioning of the 4.25 incident (Mconn's or Dilip's) would be fine. I see no reasoning in using "persecution" to justify the omitting of "alleged illegal". The purpose of the article is to lay out all the facts. --Yenchin 13:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
The facts of persecution cannot be omitted. Fnhddzs 19:31, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- As well as the facts of China claiming FLG to be illegal. What's the relevance between these two? Appeal to pity fallacy. --Yenchin 20:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- Fnhddzs only said "facts of persecution cannot be ommited." Dilip rajeev 18:35, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- The question is what NOT to include. Let's answer that first then address each one in turn otherwise we'll get bogged down. To make it easier, I'm going to reproduce the differences here. CovenantD 19:14, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Differences to consider
Mcconn: The government claims that it initiated the suppression in reponse to Falun Gong's alleged illegal activities.
Samuel: The Chinese government claims to have banned the group for its illegal activities.
Dilip: (the People's Republic of China began a nationwide suppression...,) which has been considered a major Human-Rights violation world-over.
- As you can see, Mcconn and Samuel's are almost identical. Dilip wants it mentioned that it's considered a human rights violation. Is this statement in dispute? CovenantD 19:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
We can include all three statement. Between samuel's claim and mcconn's alleged I prefer claims. Mcconn's statement does not make sense, would anyone claims to do something for a alleged reason? Dilip's statement can be used to end the paragraph with a little rewrite. The supression of Falun Gong is considered a human rights violation by western human rights groups and politicians. --Kent8888 19:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Mcconn: Falun Gong came to the attention of the Chinese government when 10,000 practitioners protested peaceful at Zhongnanhai the compound of Chinese top leaders on April 25, 1999.
Samuel: The Falun Gong claims the ban a result of president Jiang Zemin’s personal jealousy of the group’s popularity.[
Dilip: Concerns were triggered when 10,000 practitioners appealed peacefully close to Zhongnanhai the compound of Chinese top leaders on April 25, 1999.
----
- Again, Mcconn and Dilip's versions are almost identical. Samuel wants it mentioned that jealousy may be a factor. Is any of this disputed? CovenantD 19:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Samuel's statement comes from a Falun Gong main website. It is the group's official view of the cause of the supression. The protest can be moved to other section. --Kent8888 19:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Concur --Yenchin 20:26, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Folks, when can the "illegal activities" be deleted or revised? It is not true. Fnhddzs 05:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
- As soon as we get enough people to give their comments on the differences. You haven't yet. CovenantD 06:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
- ok. Fnhddzs 17:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC) But we cannot wait forever. If nobody comes, we have to admit no other opinions during this timeline. It is not a stone. We have the deadline of this Wed. Fnhddzs 18:00, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Origin v History & Timeline
I see that some of the edit warring was over the name of the section. It seems to have settled down now into the compromise of calling the section "Origins" and linking to an article called "History and timeline." I just want to confirm that this is indeed the agreed upon style. CovenantD 19:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- It's the original style that existed almost from day one and its the only style that makes sense. The material in the origins section is fundamental to an understanding of the Falun Gong. It is actually more important than a mere listing of chronological events, which is what the recently created History and timeline page does. In fact, there never was consensus to creat a separate page called "History and timeline." I don't really object to it, but it's existence cannot be used to justify the suppression of important information about the origins of Falun Gong. If needed, we can simply have a stand-alone section on "Origins" that doesn't link to "History and timeline."....and by the way, did anyone ever re-write the intro to that page?
--Tomananda 19:56, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- To answer your last question, no, but then again there's been no note and no discussion about it, so you're just being facetious.
- Actually another editor...I'm pretty sure it was you...did mention that the intro to that page needed to be written, because it is just a copy of the main page intro, not specific to History and timelines, so I was being sincere and goal-oriented rather than facetious. Maybe I should have actually checked the page before posing it as a question, but I didn't. --Tomananda 20:33, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- Well, I was being a bit facetious at that point. It's in the Research into health benefits of Falun Gong article that I mention it, but you are correct in that it applies to many different articles. Now that you bring it up, I might as well go through all of them and root out the inappropriate duplicates. CovenantD 20:45, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- It's your opinion that it's essential to an understanding. Let's be clear on the difference between fact and opinion. An understanding without knowing the origins is possible, it's just a different understanding. And yes, I realize that's just my opinion. ;-)
- Yes, it is just my opinion. I think here you are merely objecting to my style of writing which can be didactic at times. I write with confidence, but when it comes to negotiating postitions I am very flexible. --Tomananda 20:33, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- Objecting to a tanget, maybe. since it doesn't effect it's inclusion or not. Of course info should be included that is relevant, reliable and properly sourced. It's just a matter of where. CovenantD 20:45, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- I'm don't care either way, or even a different way, (I haven't even looked at the differences yet) but I want to make sure that this issue is discussed and decided so we don't get into another edit war over it. CovenantD 20:11, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- Couldn't agree with you more. Anything that prevents another revert war is cool with me! --Tomananda 20:33, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
So the floor is open to suggestions for the naming of the section or sections, and what companion articles should be linked to which. CovenantD 20:45, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Origin section has been there since the beginning of the article. History and timeline should have its own section. --Samuel Luo 19:39, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- Okay, I'm going to write a one sentence summary for the History and Timeline section and link to the separate page. CovenantD 22:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm reativating this thread to prevent another revert war between Fnhdzzs and others.
I think the Origins section should focus on the time before Falun Gong "was introduced to the world" and History and Timeline should focus on the time after it went public. Thoughts? CovenantD 06:05, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- I think that's a correct split. Origins means how did it get started, where did the teachings come from and who else was involved in it's creation other than Li (eg: his teachers).--Tomananda 07:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I disagree to having two such sections. The reason being all we have is some material of questionable authenticity which the publisher removed from Zhuan Falun , on being asked to do so By Li Hongzhi. Biography of Li Hongzhi, belongs to the "Li Hongzhi" article. We can have a paragraph on it and I think it is best merged with History and Timeline. Dilip rajeev 14:10, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- Considering Origins existed for quite a while before you erased it and created History and Timeline (with no discussion), I'm not inclined to agree with you Dilip. If anything, the History and Timeline should go away. Most of that stuff will be covered in other topics in the article. Origins is a distinct topic. CovenantD 19:19, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- Anyway, we cannot hide information from the same biography you folks love dearly. Fnhddzs 19:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Nobody's trying to hide anything, you have introduced major additions without discussion. Plus you're putting your addition in the wrong place. Origins deals with how it came into being. History is what happens after it's begining. That's not my opinion, that's the definition of those words. CovenantD 19:47, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
It IS about how it came into beings. Falun gong was introduced to the public as a Star Qigong system. Fnhddzs 19:57, 11 June 2006 (UTC) The story about Master's childhood has less relation with Falun Gong. Fnhddzs 19:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- No, it is highly related. It was introduced by Li. So his background of course is relevant. We're not talking about whether he was called "Xiao Laizi" over here. It's still on topic. --Yenchin 20:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- There is a wiki article on Li Hongzhi. Theory of relativty was introduced by Einstein so an article on Special Relativity discusses Einstein's childhood?
Dilip rajeev 18:27, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- If there were aspects of his childhood that were relevant to relativity, yes. I'm not saying that every bit of his life is important to the "Origins" section. But it appears that some aspects, such as his early training, are. Only those parts should be here, probably with a better link to the article on Li. Information should not be reproduced on both pages. CovenantD 18:41, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I just realized this discussion is straying (again) from the topic, which is what to put into each section and writing up a summary for History. CovenantD 18:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- Biography or not, I support the split as proposed. Even if LHZ pulled his ideas out of a hat we still need to say how he got the hat. Everything after he "Honged" is Fa is history of the movement. This is not a hard concept to understand. Scientific workers still have to cite who's work they're based on, how they formed their thought, and so on. --Yenchin 20:36, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Order of the subtitles
I am concerned about the order in which the subtitles appear. The article being on Falun Gong, the Persecution of Falun Gong adn othe section must appear above the "criticism" section. Especially when the persecution is recieving so much attention world-wide. Dilip rajeev 14:14, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- It's been requested that we finish up the 2nd paragraph of the intro before we look at structure. (In principle, I agree that Criticism should appear further down and be summarized better {Scientology}). CovenantD 19:24, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
From Hoerth
Because this talk page is semiprotected, a new editor asked me to post this here. I do so without endorsing anything s/he says. CovenantD 14:42, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
"Falun Gong practitioners as well as supporters of the Communist Parties crackdown on Falun Gong, each have there own websites on which they each have allready extensivly stated their point of view. So why is there so much conflict, and discussion and no consent? Because each party wants to see the content of their websites in the wikipedia article. And why is that so important to them even though it allready is on their respective sites? Because they think if they are able to get their stuff in the wikipedia article, people will be more likely to belive them if they see their point of view in an "independent encyclopedia entry". So this is the actuall cause of the entire despute. But I think it's pretty stupid, because there is one very simple way to solve this, and make it less interesting for both parties to vandalize the article. I suggest that the first thing we do is to remind the viewers at the top of the article that everbody can edit wikipedia, and that there is no independent staff or team of experts, and that supporters of Falun Gong as well as supporters of the Communist Party ::are frequently changing the article, and therefore on this subject wikipedia might very likely not be NPOV, and is as credible as something writen with chalk on the sidewalk. (Actually as I understand it Wikipeda being like Chalk on the side walk is basicly the reason why Larry Sanger left it :-) Okay, putting it that way might be putting Wikipedia down a bit, but the comparison is not all that wrong, and many people don't realize this. But most importantly it will end those sensless debattes and endless edit-wars. I am sure that if you don't put something like that in the article, you can continue to debate for another 5 years and still won't be able to get to any consent. So this is my suggesion. --Hoerth 12:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)"
- Hoerth: Yet despite what you say there has been some progress over the past 4 months in creating a balanced article. I don't agree with the dichotomy you present between supporters of Falun Gong and supporters of the Chinese government. I am neither.
- Li Hongzhi is every bit as totalitatarian as the Chinese government and both want to destroy each other. Having said that, I am really only concerned with presenting the truth of what Li teaches and what his disciples believe, and the harmful aspects of the Falun Gong apart from any political considerations. Because of the practice of Falun Gong western families have been broken up. Husbands and wives have gotten divorces and some practitioners have suffered health consequences because of Li's teaching for practitioners not to seek medical care when they are sick. If it were not for the conflict between Li Hongzhi and the Chinese government, people in the west would have a much better understanding of the Falun Gong.
- But because the western media has failed to take a critical look into Falun Gong teachings and practices, the public still thinks about the Falun Gong as just a regular eastern meditation group. That is the PR image Falun Gong promotes of itself...they don't even want to acknowledge that Li Honghzi is a god and savaior who warns that corrupt people, including homosexauls, will be weeded out. So Wikipedia needs to report on more than the politics, the crackdown, and allegations of torture. It needs to also do what the western media has failed to do: give an in-depth report of what the Falun Gong is all about in its own right. --Tomananda 16:40, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Ofcourse Tomananda, these things that you just now stated above is entirely your understanding. You say Li Hongzhi is "totalitatarian", but somebody else may say he is a really compassionate man and his Dafa is really good for people. You say you want to present the "truth" of what he teaches, somebody else can say that the "truth" you are holding on to is your own truth, so you are not presenting them the "truth", but you are trying to make others think like you do. You say alot of families have broken up, 100 million practitioners world-wide as well as alot of private people say that Falun Gong has made their family more harmonius and peaceful. You say practitioners have suffered health consequenses, still there are 100 million practitioners that say that they have been miracously cured from all their diseases. Please tell me, do you still think that your own so called "truth", really can be the truth? If your "truth" really is the Truth, then why are 100 million people who THEMSELF practice Falun Gong disagree with you? How can you, as a third party spectator, who only has a very very shallow understanding of this Dafa, represent the Truth? Maybe you say: "But I read all the Falun Gong books, so I know what I am talking about." Then I would say that Dafa or Dharma has different manifestations and different forms of existence on different levels. If you read the books of Falun Gong with negative thoughts and negative intentions, do you really think you can understand the Dharma of Falun Gong? Do you really think you can understand the truth? I recommend, that you once again read the whole book Zhuan Falun with a clear heart and harmonius mind, without any bad thoughts, and after that you can come with your own opinions. /Omido 17:49, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay, this doesn't seem to be about edits to the article. CovenantD 19:09, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
The article edits cannot be separable with understanding what Falun Gong is. Instead, it is essential. Please do not interrupt. Fnhddzs 19:23, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
The "everyone can edit" nature of Wikipedia is quite clear when one is looking up articles over here. Unless there is some new policy there will always be edit discussions/wars on controversal articles.
Omido: Here's a hint for you. Why don't we add a sentence in the "Beliefs and Teachings", as well as on the FLG website links saying that "These should be read in a clear heart and harmonious mind without any bad thoughts to understand. They are the truth." Like the readers are sheep and can't judge for themselves? --Yenchin 21:07, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
3RR violations
Both Samuel and Fnhddzs have now reverted at least 4 times each. I'm requesting that an admin give both of them a short block. CovenantD 20:02, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- Fnhddzs’s material was rejected by Tomanada, Firestar, ConventD and I today, yet he continues to insert his material. I reverted him about 4 times but he reverted us at least 7 times. If we are serious about not allowing anyone adding material without a consensus then I am simply trying to enforce this understanding and therefore should not receive the same treatment as Fnhddzs. --Samuel Luo 20:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- Niether one of you are talking about it except in the edit summaries as you war back and forth. CovenantD 20:13, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- 24 hours each. All of those involved should already have been aware that 3RR is independent of who's right and who's wrong. -- Миборовский 20:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Covenant,I think the Origins section fits into the History section.
Further, I think we cant present a partial picture on the mainpage.. I am concerned the biography is presented in a very misleading manner... just keeping a copy of fhndzz's edits on the main page too (temporarily). Dilip rajeev 21:04, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- Convent did the right thing to move that material to history of Falun Gong. Dilip as a respect for others you should refrain from reintroducing that material. --Yueyuen 21:28, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
THE WORD ALLEGED SHOULD NOT BE DELETED AND THE PERSON WHO DELETES IT AGAIN SHOULD BE BANNED
The word word alleged has been deleted MANY times now. Despite discussing this on talk page REPEATEDLY a user has been deleting it repeatedly. If this behaviour continues the user should be banned. Dilip rajeev 21:38, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- There is a discussion about this paragraph above. You might not want to insert “allege” by ignoring this discussion. --Kent8888 23:48, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- There has been no consensus to include the word alleged. I think it should be in there, but we're not talking about it enough to justify including it at this point. CovenantD 18:35, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Continuing with edits
I would like to have a majority consensus on something. The article is a terrible mess. No user who sees the page is going to take it seriously. Its time the page is cleaned up.
- No adding/deleting material to the article till the present material is cleaned up though discussion.
- Set a deadline of five days to reach consensus on summaries for the sub-pages we have now.
- Decide if the material on the "Origins" section, pulled from a biography is that relevant to an article on Falun Gong.
Dilip rajeev 21:19, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Vote / Opinion
That depends on what you mean by "take it seriously". I hope you don't mean "advertise Falungong" by that statement. Discussion is going on, and people are working to keep the article neutral. You are going to have be more specific about what you want. --Fire Star 火星 04:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
What we want are facts, don't we? But if people could not even agree "persecution" is fact[46][47][48][49][50][51][52][53]. I am afraid I can't flatter people's discern ability. Fnhddzs 18:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC) If people intentionally hide facts out of personal emotion, I would say they are not serious. Fnhddzs 18:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Discuss sub-section summaries here
Discuss biography here
I have never seen any falun gong website present the biography as the "origin" of Falun Gong. Master Li Hongzhi has talked about the origin of Falun Gong in the book Falun Gong. Thats the primary source. A biography of Albert Einstein wouldnt be discussed under the relativity article. Dilip rajeev 21:23, 11 June 2006 (UTC) Dilip rajeev 21:19, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree, the biography gives out the wrong picture, it is not even something that is a part of Falun Gong. /Omido 22:10, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Please read this section of the discussion about the biography. CovenantD 22:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
yes, I have read it, but it doesn't give a good enough reason to include the biography. All the texts in Falun Gong are available on the website, but not the biography. Why? Because it is not something that is a part of Falun Gong, then how can the biography (which is not a part of Falun Gong) be a part of the Falun Gong wikipedia article? /Omido 13:52, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- Are we talking about the origins of Falung Gong or Falun Gong itself here? --Yenchin 14:19, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- Omido, again, a biography need not be in current publication or provided by the topic of discussion to be considered as source material. That is like saying that a movie review could not be included in an article about the movie. Your reason for excluding it is not sufficient. CovenantD 15:24, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I reverted my edits
I removed the presonal references and left the basic facts of the divorce case. In accordance with the wiki policies, I updated the information to search for the appropriate case reference. BTW, You(FLG) have incoming. It's completely legal and there will be no defense against it.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Cj cawley (talk • contribs)
- You have yet to provide evidence of it's notability. Until you do, it's going to be removed every time. Wikipedia is not a place for you to publish your personal information or for you to push your personal gripe against Falun Gong. CovenantD 15:33, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- You can send me your fax number I will will send you back the court papers.
Cj cawley 17:35, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- I don't want to know about your personal life, I want to know what makes your personal life notable enough to be included in an encyclopedia. Has it been the subject of a newpaper article? Has it been reported on TV? What makes it important? You have yet to address that question. CovenantD 18:33, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
What are these divorce cases? I have not heard of it. /Omido 18:26, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- Fair enough. I was questioned by the State Dept, FBI, etc. for a divorce case? The story was blocked for quite a while with the FLG "activists" trying to shut me up. No such luck on their part.
Cj cawley 20:58, 12 June 2006 (UTC) As for Omido, I filed for divorce from a FLG wife for fraud, adultery & mental cruelty as a result of espionage against the Chinese government. The FLG have been absolutely ruthless in protecting their "good image". My case contradicts them. In the end, it may well bring about their end.
- Can you prove anything you say with third party reporting? A single divorce case that has yet to go to hearing is not notable enough. Maybe once there's been a ruling, but not now. Not unless you can SHOW it's been reported elsewhere. Otherwise, it's all original research. CovenantD 21:03, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- That's fair. Once again, send me your fax #. I will dump out a book to you. Also, you can troll through the CCP's various websites to view some of the opposing points of view. As usual, the FLG will not allow any of this information to come to light.
Cj cawley 21:08, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- Side note - Who appointed you God to determine what is right & wrong. Typical egomanic. You should join the cult. You would have a grand old time.
- Oh yea, :)
Cj cawley 21:10, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- Cj, you also need to familiarize your self with the Wikipedia policy about no personal attacks. CovenantD 01:16, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Cawley, I don't understand, you divorced your wife because she practiced Falun Gong? What is it related to espionage for the Chinese Communist Party? /Omido 21:12, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
In a nutshell, yes. It was for mental cruelty as a result of espionage AGAINST the Chinese Government. After all, we do have laws here reguarding "foreign agent" status. Basically, my wife went on a "fact finding" mission in China where she acted as in interpreter for a foreign reporter. This is illegal there. She was going to take my son with her, but I was able to stop that. She did have other help on her trip. Cj cawley 21:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
"cj cawley",
The case has been stalled in court for the past several years. The ex even went so far as to get a divorce in Mexico to avoid a trial here. This also failed.
Cj cawley 21:17, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- I asked for third party reporting, not a book that you wrote. Check out this bit on sources for why it's not acceptable. In fact, you should read the entire page, then try again. CovenantD 21:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Cawley, these things that happend to you are private matters, why are you bringing them up here? /Omido 21:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Mr. Cawley, I am sorry about your story. But I would like to point out that spies hurt Falun Gong a lot. Some people pretend they are Falun Gong practitioners. You could see Master Li's recent article on spies. Eliminating the Evil Also the dirty things you mentioned are all opposite to the principle of Falun Gong. Falun Gong teaches not to have ex-marriage relationship. Teaching the Fa at the Conference in Europe May 1998
You may have a wife or a husband. This is the normal way of life for human beings. But you are committing a sin if you have sexual activity with someone who isn’t your husband or your wife. The gods in every upright religion of the East and West have emphasized this point strongly. When normalizing how humans should be, they discussed this very seriously.
Teaching the Fa at the Eastern U.S. Fa Conference March 1999
For you to live as husband and wife is fine, but if you aren’t husband and wife and have sexual relations, then you are doing the filthiest thing. That is something gods absolutely cannot accept—not a single god would accept it. So be very sure to pay attention to this. A person’s course of cultivation is that cultivator’s history. Innumerable, immeasurable, countless gods are watching Dafa disciples’ every thought and every act. As cultivators who are determined to reach Consummation, why can’t you pass this test? I’ll stop here for today.
But practitioners may had mistakes. Just like Havard University students may got 'Fail' in a coursework. That is possible. Individual practitioners could not denote Falun Gong. Anyway I hope you could understand and wish you good luck. Fnhddzs 00:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay, Fnddzs, this is not the place to be preaching Falun Gong. Let's keep this focused on the article. CovenantD 01:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree we should be focused on the article. But I believe my efforts are helping towards this direction. Since I believe such communications could help Mr. Cawley, all of us and the article. I have never wished to persuade other's belief. Fnhddzs 05:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that you really understand. I come as your potential doom. As for the ex, she used to work directly for Gail Rachlin, serves as a reporter for the epoch times & currently is in your marching band. If that's not the defintion of a cultivator, then I don't know what is. Any one who is a two time adulterer(as in, two times with two different husbands), pro-abortionist(likewise 2x), etc. hardly qualifies as a "cultivator" of anything but evil. I am going to chalk both Fnhddzs & CovenantD as sockbots. I am working on one of my own. This way, it will be easier to keep up with the updates. I would call you by your name(s); however, I don't who what they are. Oh yea, I revert my edits. Since they are facts. Cj cawley 07:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
- I did not she is not a practitioner. I say if your claims are true (spies or adultery), that was not taught by Falun Gong (and to the opposite), that is her own mistake. With correcting mistakes, one still can continue practicing Falun Gong. Master gives chances to everybody no matter how bad s/he was. Fnhddzs 17:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Like I said last time, give me a fax # & I will send you the court papers. They don't exist on the net. Cj cawley 07:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
CovenantD, you are right about the personal attacks, my apologies. As for the court case, it will be similar to the ones currently faced by the Catholic Church for sexual abuse. It may very well crack the FLG wide open. I don't know what the reaction from the Chinese Government is going to be. The FLG have done a good job at keeping negative things out of the papers. Cj cawley 07:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
- Apology accepted. And when your case does hit the papers, as you seem certain it will, then you can include it as relevant and notable. Until then, I'm afraid it just doesn't meet the criteria for inclusion. CovenantD 07:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree. Court papers are a matter of public record. If that is not the definition of truth, then I don't know what is. As for the case, the FLG will have to settle and they know it. The amount of damage that will probably result will cripple their organization in China & abroad. To put it bluntly, it would not surprise me if the Chinese capitally punished people. As for the value to the press, the FLG would loose face.
Cj cawley 08:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Mr. Cawley, while I'm sorry for what happened to you, I'm sort of confused on what point do you want to make, what parts of FLG do you want to address, what significance is this case to FLG? There are articles of trials on Wikipedia. But these trials address to various significant issues, such as Evolution vs. Creation, the Separation of Church and State, and so on. So back to the question, what does this case stand for and how is it relevant to FLG? --Yenchin 08:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
- Yenchin, there are other cases where the divorce case ended up in the public venue. There was recently a case where, I believe it was the CEO, of Ernest & Young went to divorce court. As a result of the divorce court, they had to evaluate how much E&Y was worth. Likewise, the Jack Welsh(GE) case ended up in public. He had to disclose what his retirement package was & give some of it back. In my case, I filed for divorce on the grounds of fraud, adulerty and MENTAL CRUELTY AS A RESULT OF ESPIONAGE AGAINST THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT FOR THE FLG. In the case of the ex, she went on a fact finding mission for a U.S. congressman working with an Aussie reporter. A U.S. Dept. of State official helped her burn the documents in the U.S. embassy in Beijing prior to her being arrested by the secret police. The only reason why the Chinese Government believed my story was because they had the arrest record, etc.
According to the ex, she told them "everything". Cj cawley 08:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry, I forgot. At the time, the ex-wife was working directly for Gail Rachlin. She's the head of marketing for the cult. This is one of the few cases that link directly back to someone who is "in a position of authority" for the FLG. The FLG are past master's of the "They is not us" when things go bad and "we is them" when things are perceived as going good.
The Dr. who was arrested for protesting the Bush/Hu visit is another example. She was able to get in with an Epoch times id. Notice how quickly the "newspaper" distanced themselves from her. It would not surprise me if they are shut down after this. Likewise, my ex has a reporter's id. Cj cawley 08:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
- Aha. You are comparing Dr. with your ex. Note that Dr. Wang does not do anything constituting a crime[54]. The reporter who muffled her mouth should be charged. Fnhddzs 17:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
- CovenantD, Is there one part that you are protesting or the whole thing?
Cj cawley 08:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
- Just a personal observation, in the FLG's search for "enlightenment", there are those who end up destroying everything around them. They become so obsessed that they loose sight & perspective. My case is one good example. There are others in many "religions", etc. You can reference the Jeff Warrens case. The key is obtaining "critical mass". Enough people need to get up & complain before something is done. The alternative? Jim Jones, Heaven's Gate, Waco TX.
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Cj cawley 08:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Cawley, I disagree with you. I don't know where you have gotten your understanding from, but it is wrong. In Falun Gong one has to be compassionate and balance their relationship with the envoirement and live a normal life. I could give you a bunch of other reasons, but this is not the place for it. Here we are discussing the article, not individual opinions on Falun Gong, so you should stop doing that. Thank You /Omido 08:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
- Another one who does not use their name. As for my understanding,
I got it from the ex.
- As for the article, would you include pieces about the Catholic Church's recent sex scandal's? I would. This case falls into a similar vein. It exposes the "dark side" of the cult.
Cj cawley 09:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Mr. Cawley, please correct me if I'm wrong. From what I gather your case is still in the court. I'd suggest you to cool down and focus your efforts on the case. Eventually the judge will make a decision and the significance of the case will be revealed in a more formal way. I'd also suggest you to take a look at the list of case law lists in Wikipedia and see if there are examples you can use for the article. Or maybe see if you can get the press on a investigative report of your situation. --Yenchin 09:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Yenchin, In the interestes of fairness & "case law", most of the FLG cases should also be removed. At least, one case was thrown out of court. What proof did they offer? I gave a website that had the case scheduled. I saw no such information for the pro FLG references. As for your advice, thanks. I am working on it. Cj cawley 12:00, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Friend,
Falun Gong requires practitioners to always consider others before doing things.. and always be compassionate and understanding to others.. not to mention one's own family members. Say I ignore all that and dont treat my family members well.. then, isnt the mistake mine.. The teachings repeatedly point out one must be kind and understanding to all..
"So everything that you do, be it your balancing well your family relationships while you live among ordinary people, balancing well your relationships in society, how you perform at your workplace, how you conduct yourself in society, etc., none of these are things you can just go through the motions on. All of these are part of your cultivation format, and are serious matters."
Dilip rajeev 15:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
- And what does that have to do with the article? The issue is the notability of the new editor's contributions, not their theological import according to FLG's dogma. Trying to convert new editors to FLG isn't pertinent to this discussion. --Fire Star 火星 16:16, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks Fire Star.
Dilip, I am making a simple claim. I am divorcing my ex-wife BECAUSE OF HER FLG ACTIVITIES. The court papers will bear the case out. My son is an even better example. If the Catholic Church has acknowledged the activities of pedofile priests, why can't you acknowledge the existance of a "bad" FLG member? I will leave the rest of them out of it for now. As for the divorce, it is a matter of fact, truth, etc. I can provide you whatever information you require. Just expect it to be ignored by the FLG. They are REALLY GOOD AT THAT.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Cj cawley (talk • contribs)
- aha. What do you refer to as falun gong activities? Individual behaviors of a Falun Gong practitioner especially when s/he made mistakes are not FLG activities although I did not say she cannot be a practitioner after correcting mistakes (If your claims are true). If you really divorce just because of her belief, then that's your personal flavor. Fnhddzs 17:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay, it's time to end this conversation. It's taking up too much room, too much time and too much attention that should be focused on the second paragraph. Back to work, folks! :D CovenantD 16:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
- Agreed, hold everyone to the same standard. I am putting my court case back in & taking their "torture" claims out. If I have to provide a reference, then the FLG does too. I gave you mine where's theirs.
- CoventD You are alos held to the 3RR rule. I provided 3rd party information & offered more. You kept putting the pro FLG info back without any supporting citations. Sorry, I put mine back once again. Also, I will report you to the admins.
- The article has most references provided. If there is a place you need reference, we will try to fix it. but your (cj.) edits are not conforming to wiki article's policy. 1) not notable to put on encyclopedia. 2) not verifiable (death claims are not verifiable.) 3) contents (your personal story) are not related to the article. We have a lot of personal stories about how Falun Gong are benefical (for example, my stomachache is gone, my car flies to the ditch but no harm happens to either car or me, an old pracitioner could cook for her family again while she was ever paralized before cultivation) that could be put if yours could. Fnhddzs 21:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Final draft proposal for the 2nd paragraph
“ | Falun Gong has been the focus of international controversy since the government of the People's Republic of China began a nationwide suppression of Falun Gong on July 20, 1999, when it banned Falun Gong for its alleged illegal activities. Concerns were triggered when 10,000 practitioners protested near Zhongnanhai, the compound of China's top leaders, on April 25 of that year. Falun Gong claims the ban was a result of President of the People's Republic of China Jiang Zemin’s personal jealousy of the group’s popularity. The supression of Falun Gong is considered a human rights violation by many human rights groups and politicians. | ” |
This incorporates information from all (Dilip, Mcconn, Samuel, Kent8888) suggestions, reworded so they flow together. I even consulted a professional editor on the wording and grammar. I decided to include in my draft everything because it all seems relevant to the "international controversy." What do you think? Remember, we have less than 18 hours to reach consensus. CovenantD 04:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Support except protest --> appeal would be better. Fnhddzs 05:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Support.
No problem with it.I agree that "Concerns were triggered..." needs to either be reworded or removed unless someone can provide evidence for these so-called "Concerns". --Yenchin 05:50, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- REJECT. personal jealousy is an FLG assumption and ploy to gain support. There is no basis for this claim Cj cawley 06:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Then ask for a source. CovenantD 14:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Reject. I find this version without neutrality. Too much material from pro-FG editors is inserted and the one sentence that intends to introduce the Chinese government’s claims in order to provide a balance in the paragraph has been removed. Please consider including this sentence “The Chinese government claims to have banned the group for its illegal activities.” Also I agree with kent8888 that this sentence—“Concerns were triggered when 10,000 practitioners protested near Zhongnanhai, the compound of China's top leaders, on April 25 of that year”—can be moved to a more appropriate section. Finally, the word “western” should be added to the last sentence. Human rights groups and politicians that have supported the Falun Gong are from the west. --Samuel Luo 06:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- That's not true. A ton of support has come from Taiwan. Mcconn 16:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- The "one sentence" you refer to was incorporated into the first, "when it banned Falun Gong for its alleged illegal activities." The professional editor I consulted said that "claims to have... for it's alleged" is unclear and redundant from a grammar perspective. I felt the "concerns" sentence was important because it explains WHY the Chinese gov't initiated the crackdown. (It does need some supporting sources though.) I don't know exactly who the human rights groups are or where they are from, which is why I phrased it the way I did. CovenantD 14:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- By combining the first two sentences you limited the weight of the government’s claim and you pushed that further by excluding the link to the government’s statement. I am not saying that I support the government, what I want is balance. You said that your version included input from everybody but you left out Kent888’s “western.” Why the Chinese government was concerned about the FG is a big subject that warrants it own section, that sentence suits that section better. --Samuel Luo 20:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Reject. It is not balanced. --Yueyuen 07:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Here is the revised text:
Falun Gong has been the focus of international controversy since the government of the People's Republic of China began a nationwide suppression of Falun Gong on July 20, 1999, when it banned Falun Gong for its illegal activities. Falun Gong claims the ban was a result of President of the People's Republic of China Jiang Zemin’s personal jealousy of the group’s popularity. The suppression of Falun Gong is considered a human rights violation by many western human rights groups and politicians.
- Support This shorter version is balanced and reads better.--Yueyuen 07:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Support I like the shorter version as well. --Tomananda 07:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Support This version truely includes everything. --Samuel Luo 07:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Reject I want the word "alleged" infront of "illegal activities". Omido 10:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Reject Same reason as Omid. Plus, support has also come from the East. I prefer the first version, while changing "protest" to "appeal". Mcconn 16:44, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Reject why we need to talk about persecution reasons in the introduction. Also I disagree not including alleged (the word claims does not work in this context) and disagree that only western considers it is a violation. Does United Nation only represents western countries? If you think "short" is good. I would like an even shorter sentence. "Falun Gong has been the focus of international controversy since the government of the People's Republic of China began a nationwide suppression of Falun Gong on July 20, 1999." Fnhddzs 21:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The Taiwanese government is a strong FG supprter, it gives the FG money and material. And from what we read on the news we all known how corrupt the Taiwanese government is. --Samuel Luo 20:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Would everybody be able to support the second version if it included alleged illegal activities? CovenantD 17:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes. Omido 18:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
No.
- Support is not limited to the west. That will have to be removed. Regarding the April 25 appeal, I have no problems with its inclusion and I don't think that I damages the readability. The only reason I could see for not including it is that it may be too complicated to be summarized in the intro paragraph, otherwise it is very relevant to why the persecution began. Mcconn 18:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Would everybody be able to support the second version if it included alleged illegal activities and omitted the word western? CovenantD 17:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- We are here to present the facts, that means to present what Beijing and FG have claimed and done. No one should manipulate the words to suit his or her own personal view which often if not always lead to edit wars. I believe a simple structure like “A says B about C” works better here. Please take a look of this revised version. --Kent8888 19:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
No, "alleged" should not be included. --Samuel Luo 20:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
NPOV Version to vote on:
Falun Gong has been the focus of international controversy since the government of the People's Republic of China began a nationwide suppression of Falun Gong on July 20, 1999. The Chinese government claims to have banned the group for its illegal activities. The Falun Gong claims the ban was a result of President of the People's Republic of China Jiang Zemin’s personal jealousy of the group’s popularity. The suppression of Falun Gong is considered a human rights violation mainly by western human rights groups and politicians.
“Alleged” is not included because the word “claim” has the same effect. “Western” is needed here because the group mainly receive support from the west. --Kent8888 19:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- I support this version. It was proposed some time ago and is about as neutral as we are ever going to get. By having two statements, each one reprsenting the POV of one side or the other, Wikipedia itself remains neutral, but also suggests where the controversy lies so that readers will be inspired to read further. Can we take a stray poll on this version? --Tomananda 21:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Support --Tomananda 21:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Support --Samuel Luo 21:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Support. "Claim" in some ways is between "alleged" and nothing. --Yenchin 22:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Support--Yueyuen 00:43, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
The relation between Falun gong and China government should not be put on the introduction. If we really want to report facts, we should also report the facts when China government awarded Falun Gong. Fnhddzs 21:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC) The word claim is in another sentence. "western" is not needed. Are Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan western? Fnhddzs 21:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- As far as I know these governments have not supported the FG except Taiwan. --Samuel Luo 21:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Frankly speaking I'm skeptical on how much support Taiwan gives to FLG. I've been in Taiwan for 5 years after 1999 and I hardly saw strong support from the government or people. Followers spam discussion boards with activities and most of the ones mentioned are saying that they hold a demonstration at some local area and "a lot of people understand the truth". Big deal. Vice President Annette Lu has attended some activites but there isn't much voice from her. President Chen Shui-Bian at best only replied at his website saying that China should let people investigate the organ harvesting. The KMT isn't better, Mayor Ma Ying-Jeou at best only said that China must tolerate FLG. The Pan-Blue and Pan-Green are busy fighting each other. FLG issues have no place in this Taiwanese political fundie fest. FLG members tried to ask some people in the Legislative Yuan to discuss issues, they recieved nothing but empty promises (and FLG still posted news on the website, so much for "Truth"). As for human rights groups, I have yet to see any group strongly voicing about FLG issues. In Taiwan FLG is just another excercise group holding activities to be ignored and with people who spam or troll the discussion boards. --Yenchin 22:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
As for the word "alleged". I'm leaning to not including it. FLG followers didn't care to appeal the case through court. Deal with it. --Yenchin 22:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- The entire western v eastern is going to sink this if we're not careful.
- Yenchin, your perceptions of Taiwanese support cannot be included because it's "original research." Which version are you talking about with the word "alleged?" It's not in the version just above your comment, so I have no idea which one you mean. CovenantD 22:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Yes. I'm aware, I was trying to point out that there isn't much proof on this so-called "Taiwan supports FLG" but I went into rant mode. As for "alleged" I missed the new version when I was posting. --Yenchin 22:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- I've reformated slightly to make the versions easier to find. CovenantD 22:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- The word western is used by practitioner-editors in “Falun Gong outside China” section. The first sentence in the summary says “The persecution of Falun Gong practitioners has been regarded by most Western governments as a major international human rights issue.” I did not persisted in including the word “however” in the 3rd paragraph even thought it fits there. I hope practitioner-editors can show some compromise. --Samuel Luo 22:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Yenchin does this mean that you support the last version the one without "alleged"? FG claims to have about three hundred thousand members in Taiwan is that true?--Samuel Luo 22:43, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Yes I support the one labeled "NPOV Version to vote on".
- As for the members I really have no idea since I always consider their numbers as inflated. According to this website: [55], there are 957 FLG sites in the Taiwan area (including Pescadores, Kinmen, and Matsu). If there is really 300,000 members that means nearly 300 people per site. Which is quite unlikely. I sometimes do some morning excercise and I've never seen any individual group able gather so much people, including FLG. For an index, most FLG protests held in Taipei at best gather around 10,000. If we assume these FLG members are all from Taipei (which is unlikely). Then a 10,000/2,000,000 ratio at best gives us a number of roughly 100,000 members (That is, using 20,000,000 as the total population). --Yenchin 23:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- This means the Falun Gong is lying again. It really does not surprise me though. --Samuel Luo 23:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Well if they can pull a 5 million number (1/4 Taiwan population) in one year[56] there's a lot of faith to leap. --Yenchin 23:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
About the Persecution section
Finally after careful checking, I found what I mainly disagreed are the new edits in the persecution section summary. I suggest putting the new edits in the history article. Since the new edits tried to describe many details before the persecution. Fnhddzs 05:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
CawleySockBot01 is responding. You provided not citations for anything. They are removed in accordance with the "accepted rules". I reinserted my edits about the Chinese Publications. Unlike you, I will provide the references; however, the material is currently being used for the court case. Cj cawley 07:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Fnhddzs, the Persecution summary that I placed is nothing more than a paraphrase of the one of the paragraphs of the intro to the Persecution article. CovenantD 13:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- All right. Leave it for now. I will look at it further. Fnhddzs 21:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Health Claims
CawleySockBot02 responding. You need to have a CONTROL GROUP for the survey. Either that, or we go down the Joe Pescipo route of "I'm from Jersey. You from Jersey?" line of reasoning.— Preceding unsigned comment added by CJ cawley (talk • contribs)
You're mistaking a research study with a survey. CovenantD 15:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
???
CawleySocjBot03 responding. You need to include the publications provided by the Chinese in response to the shutdown of the cult. I will work with Sam to put up the summaries of the people who died PRIOR TO THE CULT BEING BANNED.— Preceding unsigned comment added by CJ cawley (talk • contribs)
- I'm interested to know how you decided you were going to work with "Sam" when you two haven't even exchanged talk page messages. Seems like you're assuming quite a bit. CovenantD 15:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Cawley, Falun Gong is not a cult, it is a cultivation practice within the Buddha-School, that is to say, it is the Mighty Buddha-Fa. I would appreciate it if you would stop calling it a cult. Also, what exactly do you mean with people who died? Do you mean the Communist Party's propaganda about 1,400 people dying because they did not take their medicine? Thank You /Omido 16:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)