Talk:Transhumanism

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IMPORTANT: New Contributors

Having invested a lot of time and energy in editing the Transhumanism article, the primary contributors insist that all claims for and against transhumanism, or otherwise, be accurate, properly attributed, and well-referenced. We want the article to be the best possible resource for anyone (e.g. students, journalists, cultural critics) who is interested in the subject. Despite having conflicting views, we all cooperated in an effort to make the article comprehensive, rigorous and stable enough for Featured Article status. Therefore, we recommend that you take the time to discuss any major addition or deletion of article content in this talk page before proceeding otherwise the article may be reverted to an older version. --Loremaster 00:50, 15 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While it is indeed an excellent article, I don't think any special procedures for handling future edits are warranted. I would worry about setting a precedent for other Featured Articles, some of which fall far below the quality standards set here (see the May 31 Nostradamus article for an example).--Chris 01:17, 2 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't proposing any special procedure. I was simply pointing out something that is common sense on Wikipedia. --Loremaster 18:01, 2 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Adding images of transhumanists?

Max More: http://www.kurzweilai.net/bios/images/more.jpg

Natasha Vita-More: http://www.extropy.org/images/Image11.jpg

Nick Bostrom: http://transhumanism.org/images/Nick%20Bostrom.jpg

A colleague of mine who has contacted Nick Bostrom tells me that he gives us permission to use the image linked to above or any image found on his website at http://www.nickbostrom.com or http://www.fhi.ox.ac.uk/Nick%20Photos.htm. --Loremaster 23:33, 1 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I just read an announcement of this article and I am impressed with the quality. You all have my full premission to use a picture of me, and you can best get one at http://www.extropy.org/directors.htm . Other images are at http://www.natasha.cc or http://www.transhumanist.biz

Max More also gives permission to use his image which you can find at http://www.maxmore.com

Now I am going to read more about this piece. Best wishes, Natasha Vita-More

I've uploaded the images I had selected and listed at the top of this section. They can now be found in the respective articles of More, Vita-More and Bostrom. However, I'm still debating whether or not we should add these images to the Transhumanism article. I'm concerned with the possible self-promotion factor... --Loremaster 22:42, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I share Loremaster's concern. I suggest just leaving the MM, NV-M and NB in their respective articles.--StN 22:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your suggestion. --Loremaster 23:04, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure where to make this comment, so I'll just put it here. Why are you resistant to giving credit to Max More? I sense some tension here and I don't understand it. You have "In 1988, philosopher Max More founded the Extropy Institute and was the main contributor to a formal doctrine for apolitical and libertarian transhumanists," This is another low-blow. Please understand that you must put your political directives behind you and realize that Max More first wrote about transhumanism before FM, and before Nick Bostrom. Nick is a fine person and made many important contributions to transhumanism, but that does not affect the fact that Max wrote about transhumanism without reference to any political viewpoint. I remember it because I first read Max's writings on transhumanism in a magazine in the late 1980s. Just rewrite what you have and give credit to Max for being the father of transhumanism. He earned it. Best wishes, Natasha Vita-More

Mrs. Vita-More, I've edited the article to reflect your criticism. --Loremaster 18:25, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please do call me Natasha. (I'm Ms. anyway, not very traditional)

If we have permission from Max More and Natasha Vita-More to use their images, let's do so. I don't see any issue of self-promotion. I see it as people who have been extremely important to the history and development of transhumanism being kind enough to show an interest in what's going on here, and helping us get around any copyvio problems with things that we'd like to do anyway. They both have my thanks.

Natasha, I don't think any low blows or acts of damning with faint praise are intended (they certainly are not intended by me). Getting those historical paras just right, from a distance of some years now, is quite tricky, and we are required to rely on public sources. I hope that what is there now strikes you as more accurately reflecting the historical reality. It seems obvious to me that Dr More pretty much invented transhumanism, as opposed to merely coining the word "transhumanism" (which we attribute to Julian Huxley). I thought the article said that, but maybe it's now clearer. Best wishes, Metamagician3000 08:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Transhumanist Art Manifesto

I don't see emphasis about the Transhumanist Art Statement manifesto which had critical impact on how transhumanism was expressed in the 1980's. It should be included since it written about in Wired and covered at the London Museum of Contemporary Art. It is also in a collection of earthly artifacts on the ESA space probe to Saturn. (Impressive). Christopher Sherman

The Transhumanist Art Statement is mentioned in the last sentence of the fourth paragraph of the History section. However, I have no problem with someone emphasing its importance. We could also work it in the Fiction and Art section. --Loremaster 02:53, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The link is missing within the article. Here it is for you http://www.transhumanist.biz/transhumanistartsmanifesto.htm I noticed that a link is missing from the Transhuman UPdate as well. This is not a very good link, but it authenticates the show and perhaps I can ask my webmaster to fine tune that page. http://www.natasha.cc/activist.htm Thank you. Natasha Vita-More

The first link you mention is in the Reference section. However, we should include the second one that is missing. --Loremaster 22:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

External links

A comment from the Featured Article Candidate page:

There are 20 external links to organizztions not disccused in the article. I would like to see these dealt with within article or changed to See Also wikilinks to their corresponding articles. If they are not notable enough to have an article I wonder if we should be linking to them at all --Birgitte§β ʈ Talk 17:30, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that something could be done to improve the External links section. However, according to a Wikipedia rule of thumb: 1) if something is in See also, try to incorporate it into main body 2) if something is in main body, it should not be in see also and therefore 3) good articles have no See also sections. --Loremaster 21:46, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We should follow the Wikipedia:External links guidelines. --Loremaster 20:07, 13 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Enough section

I've found the source for Bailey's criticism of Bill McKibben' argument: Enough Already: A leading environmentalist makes a foolish case against technological innovation --Loremaster 18:00, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Enough counter-argument needs to be expanded with some other source as well. --Loremaster 18:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion the last sentence of this section is unfair to McKibben. Is calling something "Neo-Romantic" a counter-argument? It sounds pretty nice to me, but in the context it seems it is meant to be unpleasant. However, it it not explained why. Also, saying that close scrutiny of the Ming Dynasty, the Amish, etc. show them to represent the opposite of what McKibben claims, without describing what he says about them, is uninformative. The arguments in the article should be self-contained. Bailey's argument in the next-to-last sentence is relevant; the one in the last sentence is not.--StN 02:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to be with StN here. I don't think we need so much detail about what Bailey says. The idea is just to give a quick idea of what has been said in response to McKibben's argument (as reported). I'd be happy to see the last sentence edited down somewhat. Metamagician3000 03:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Userbox

Is there currently a Transhumanist userbox? There was one previously, that I was using, but it was deleted in one of those random userbox deletion sprees. Thanks.

MSTCrow 00:54, 2 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is no template - which I think is appropriate as I think that all such userboxes expressing adherence to a religious, political , philosophical, etc., belief should gradually be removed from template space. However, if you want I can help you userfy the old box, or you can feel free to copy the code for the box that merely expresses interest in transhumanism from my userpage. Metamagician3000 02:06, 2 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How is expressing interest different from expressing support? Oh, and if you look at the tail end of my userboxes, you'll that I'm strong supporter of userspace expression.

MSTCrow 02:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There's obviously a huge difference between expressing interest in something and supporting it. I am interested in many belief systems that I actually disagree with (not so much transhumanism, as it happens, since I have a lot of sympathy for it, blah, blah). Anyway, this is not the place to debate userbox policy. I told you my view and offered in good faith to help you. Do you want my help or not? Metamagician3000 07:04, 2 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nice and bizarre

"Body Modification's Role in the Coming Human-Robot Apocalypse". Going one toke over the line God did not intend Man to cross. I found this via Crank Dot Net, quite an enjoyable little site. Anville 21:25, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Anville, since this is the talk page for discussing changes to the Transhumanism article, did you think this article on body modification could be cited as a source or did you simply want to discuss the content of the article itself? If it is the latter, this isn't the right place. --Loremaster 22:10, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for this link, Anville. While the material there is not ready for prime time in the TH article, it provides food for thought concerning possible future tweaks.--StN 16:52, 8 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Having now read it, I agree. --Loremaster 17:01, 8 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you; I appreciate your responses. (I'm sure the sum total of the irrelevant things I've said in improper venues pushes the limits of what surreal number theory can enumerate.) I'd also like to express my esteem for the people who pushed this article to FA and, to the best of my knowledge, didn't explode with anger when the Main Page exposure brought along the inevitable vandalism. You people do good work. What's next? Anville 19:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, before moving to a new article such as Digitalism, I think we still need to 1) summarize and mention Natasha Vita-More's book CREATE/RECREATE in the History section; 2) mention Robert A. Heinlein's work in the Fiction and Art section; 3) mention Omega point (Tipler) in the Spirituality section; 4) expand the Enough counter-argument using Ron Bailey's Reason article and some other source; and 5) find appropropriate images for various sections of the Transhumanism article to make it look as esthetically stimulating as it used to be before it was a featured article. --Loremaster 20:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

About the fairness and accuracy dispute

Despite my removal of one POV sentence, I am satisfied with almost all of StN's recent edits to the article. --Loremaster 17:36, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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