Talk:Baseball

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My objections - Please read

Having being deeply involved in reworking the cricket article, and seeing to objections last week to make cricket a featured article, here are some objections, that I feel need to be addressed in the baseball nomination. Those maintaining this page should please check out the structure of the Cricket page and try and incorporate similar changes here.

• Last para in lead-in section is too country specific. It should be made more global. "National pastime" can remain to show its significance in the US. Would also like to see the origins of the sport in the lead-in.
• In history, nothing is mentioned signifying the close relationship between cricket and baseball. Both share similar terminology and play strategy.
• History is too US specific. Relegate specific history to a seperate article & merge international baseball federation and the latter half of professional leagues + olympic sport history.
• No objective of the game. (teams with most runs win should be delinked and put under a seperate heading) (was already there)

• Play of the game:
  • Baserunners? sorry not introduced to them. When do they come on to the field? Contradicts first para. (linked to)
  • Introduction to the 4 bases poorly introduced. Do they run clockwise or anticlockwise? Are the bases an area or an object on the ground? What size? (added)
  • Mention what is force play and strikeouts. Ways in which a batter is can get out is not mentioned anywhere in the article. (Included as links)
  • Clueless regarding "fair territory". (explained)
  • A baserunner who successfully touches home plate scores a run. Does this mean that only those on 3rd base and proceed to 4th score a run? Is that run also credited to him or the person who hit it (his career stats)? (explained, linked)
  • Does the base runner have to touch the base with is foot/body/bat?
  • Does a batter have to scamper for a run if he hits the ball? (added)

• Fielding team:
  • I'm not introduced to the mound. Please mention the dimensions, height above ground and distance from the batsman. (linked)
  • Pitchers also assist fielders as necessary by fielding the ball themself, covering bases Covering bases? what is meant by that? (added link)
  • Is the catcher the captain of the squad? (no captian, no need to state absence of a fact)
  • Can fielders swap fielding positions?
  • force out? (I don't want to click links to know what they mean.) (linked to, see talk below)
  • I would prefer a diagram with the field placements along with the article.
  • teams tend to emphasize defense at that position. Also, the center fielder is considered the outfield leader and left- and right-fielders should cede to his direction when fielding a fly ball.. Please clarify the above jargon.(linked fly ball, no other jargon left unexplained)
  • Nowhere is it mentioned that the fielding team is the defensive team.
  • third basemen often play a shallower infield -- Shallow?

    • [At this juncture, an intro to field description is sorely lacking.]

• Pitching:
  • Does "retiring batters" mean that they are out? can they retire on their own accord?
  • members of the bullpen? no idea
  • Consider renaming location,speed,movement to accuracy,velocity and trajectory changes
  • Pitcher's rubber?
  • Can multiple batters/baserunners be dismissed in a single pitched ball? Not mentioned at all. (very important, as in cricket only one batsman per delivery)
  • is there a limit on the max no. of pitchers that can be used? (added)

• Team at bat:
  • A hit that allows the batter to score on the same play is a home run. -- please simplify the jargon.(no fix to make, its a definition of the jargon)
  • bases loaded makes no sense. (fixed in baserunning) Does the batting team send a single batter during the start of an innings? if so what of he hits a triple? What happens next?
  • line drive -- what line? (linked)
  • Can a batter be 'out' on a ground ball/line drive?

• Balls and strikes
  • If the batter misses the ball and the ball does not place within the 'strike zone', is it a strike? Is the strike zone thus called, prone to human judgement error by an umpire? (already there)
  • What about the lateral measurements of the strike zone -- How far away from the batter? (already there)
  • The last para on "bunts" etc. is totally greek to me. (huh?)

• Running bases
  • first para on base running should be promoted to meet above (done)
  • Second para on tagging is confusing. Suppose the batter hits the ball in the air, I am on first base. When a fielder catches the ball I have reached the third base. Do I have to go all the way back to the first or is second sufficient? Can I be tagged on my way back? And what are the dimensions of my safe zone in which I cannot be tagged? (added about tagging up, dimensions of safe zone are mentioned --touching the base)

• Innings:
  • Too much detail on how a winner is declared (song et al). First three paras sufficient.

• Further rules
  • How many substitutes are allowed? Is the substitution rule valid for 1 innings only? or the entire game ? Using a relief pitcher means that pitcher #1 can no longer play? Similar case for a pinch hitter & designated hitter?
  • double switch? -- give a brief intro or consider a dedicated article on subsitutes, their usage and use of a double switch.
• How many umpires in an official game?
• Style of play not central to this article, consider moving it to a separate page.
• Professional leagues should be in a seperate article it doesn't fit in here. Instead of "Professional Leagues" consider having a topic "Governance of baseball" to mention who sets the rules of baseball in the US and in international tournaments, plus a very brief mention of nations having a strong baseball presence and major leagues. At the end mention See also: [Professional Leagues in baseball] (moved to Professional baseball)
• External Links should point to explainations of baseball not MLB, Negro leagues etc.
• After scrutinising all the text. I am puzzled by this glaring inconsistency. The bases are 'loaded' and two people are already out. This means that 4+2=6 players have/are batting. Now if any player gets out, innings over. So what happens to the remaining three, why/how would a pitcher ever bat? Please explain this to me.

• Further objections:
  • TOC too lopsided. Refer to Cricket to rectify this. Can do without many unnecessary sub-headings.
  • {Main article: whatever} is wrong wikisyntax. Correct syntax is { Main article: whatever }
  • No idea who Barry Bonds is or what is his significance in this article.

I hope I haven't been too critical. Consider the above as constructive criticism to improve the article. PLEASE do not fragment the above by adding bulleted replies etc. Reply below my signature. If you have addressed any points that I have raised please <s>strike out the point. [[User:Nichalp|¶ ɳȉčḩåḽṗ | ✉]] 19:08, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)

Replies to above

These are all good points and I think we should address them one by one. It sounds like you know cricket but are not familiar with baseball; thus, you are a good person to point out what is unclear to someone trying to figure out this game from this article. However, I think if we address all your concerns, the article would be twice as long! --Locarno 20:22, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yes, that is correct. I do however have some knowledge of baseball though thanks to cricket. But the page won't be so long as you fear as I have suggested removing certain sections. Also adding an extra sentence here and there to clarify won't make the page large. [[User:Nichalp|¶ ɳȉčḩåḽṗ | ✉]] 20:33, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)

I think many details will have to stay on clickable links to other articles, such as baserunning. --Locarno 20:34, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Linked articles are fine if you give about six/seven words as an intro to the term. I don't want to know too much details about baserunning (I can guess though, as it is similar to cricket). But I still don't get an idea who a base runner is. Consider adding a sentence such as -- a baserunner is a member of the offensive team who runs from a base to the next after a batter hits the ball. (I'm vague I know, but I feel that's needed.) [[User:Nichalp|¶ ɳȉčḩåḽṗ | ✉]] 19:49, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the question. I think the method by which batters become runners is now more clear in the first paragraph in "Running the Bases". --Locarno 20:46, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think those phrases deserve a promotion, higher up in the article. [[User:Nichalp|¶ ɳȉčḩåḽṗ | ✉]]

I have begun editing the intro paragraph; take a look. I think the sentence about football and racing is good to make sure we don't exalt baseball as #1 in the U.S. in every respect. --Locarno 20:38, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In regard to your "scrutinising" point above: once a runner reaches home plate, they score a run, and then are "removed" from the bases (they go sit down). Thus as few as three or as many as 6, 9, or perhaps even a few dozen batters may bat in one half-inning. You may note that the sum of the number of runs, outs, and runners left on base always equals the number of plate appearances. Furthermore, the batting order continues in successive innings. I added the final sentence in the "Team at bat" section to clarify this. --Locarno 20:48, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'm glad you clarified, since this thing does not happen in cricket. But a dozen batting (isn't the team of nine players)? Plus, if I'm on third base and my 1st innings is over, do I continue on the same base in the next batting innings of mine? And now if all 9 players are 'out' will player #1 take strike? [[User:Nichalp|¶ ɳȉčḩåḽṗ | ✉]] 19:49, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, only nine batters bat. The #1 batter follows the #9 batter; I believe that is implied by the concept of "taking turns in order" mentioned in the article. Thus, if there are a total ten batters in a half-inning, one batter would have batted twice. In a crazy example, Kansas City batted 16 batters in the top of the 3rd inning yesterday--here's the play by play. Also, some other terms: Only three batters (or runners) can be "out" in a half-inning; the other batters either score or are "left on base"; that is, they are removed from the bases without scoring once there are three outs. I added a bit about what happens to the "left on base" runners in the "team at bat" section.--Locarno 20:28, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

From my angle, the above two queries have to be addressed on the page. It seems to me the fundamental run scoring play, in baseball. Anyone who looks at baseball from the cricket angle will not have a clue as when a batsman "sits" after a home run, or the subtle implication of "batting in turns". [[User:Nichalp|¶ ɳȉčḩåḽṗ | ✉]] 20:29, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)

I moved Barry Bonds to the "at the plate" section. Seems appropriate to me. Bonds is the greatest batter of our generation. --Locarno 20:48, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Your questions about substitutions above are fully and clearly answered, IMO, in the first paragraph in "further rules": Each team is allowed to substitute for any player at any time, but no player, once removed from the game, can return. It also makes clear that a pinch runner is nothing but a substitute for a player while he is a baserunner, and (earlier) that a designated hitter is a position, not a substitute. --Locarno 21:29, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Look at this from this angle: A player who substitutes for another's turn at bat is referred to as a pinch hitter; similarly, a pinch runner may be used to substitute for a baserunner. When you use substitute now, immediately I reckon that he is done away with rather than a temporarily replacement. So a clarification is needed. [[User:Nichalp|¶ ɳȉčḩåḽṗ | ✉]]

No, your reckoning is correct. A player who is substituted is out of the game. In professional baseball, he cannot reenter the game.

Nichalp, this article is meant to be an encyclopedic overview of baseball, it used to have a much higher attention to rules details which were entirely inappropriate and would have bored and confused a casual reader, most of your points, while entirely valid, are addressed in other articles (or should be). I'll continue to work on this article taking all of your suggestions into account though. Of course be bold and make any syntactical changes you think are necessary (like the main article thing) —siroχo 21:30, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)

I'm not really asking for detail. I know it is a problem to add the entire details, as reader such as me would get bored. I'm just asking for a sort of defination of the term in question so that I don't have to break my browsing, figure out what the intricacies are and resume by browsing (eg. a bull pen sounds like a place where bulls are locked. ;) )

I won't be editing the article though as I am busy with another article. [[User:Nichalp|¶ ɳȉčḩåḽṗ | ✉]] 20:02, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

The double switch is nothing but a clever way of substituting. It has its own article--definitely sufficient. Also, I added "one or more umpires" to the "play of the game" section. --Locarno 21:37, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Double switch is ok. Could you be specific with the exact number of umpires? [[User:Nichalp|¶ ɳȉčḩåḽṗ | ✉]] 20:02, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

No. The major leagues use four usually, but sometimes three and other times six, like in the postseason. High school uses two, but only one for JV games and perhaps three or four for postseason. It is up to the league how many umpires to provide.

Ok, but at least mention how many umpires are present for an international match such as in the Olympics. [[User:Nichalp|¶ ɳȉčḩåḽṗ | ✉]] 20:29, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)

International baseball really is not all that popular ANYWHERE right now. I believe they used six umpires in the olympics gold medal game, but I don't know if they always did. Nobody cares, though, because the baseball structure was horribly set up by the IOC (single-game elimination in baseball just does not work) and nobody watched it (except perhaps in Japan?). This could change as MLB starts to throw its marketing muscle behind international baseball, but right now it is much less important than the professional leagues in each country. Furthermore, the number of umpires is too much detail for this page, especially when there isn't any standard across different leagues.

Regarding the Innings and determining a winner section. We can't really take out any full paragraph, we could cut some stuff, but the article needs some flavor (ie the mention of the longest game ever). Everything else pretty much mentions important stuff about determining the winner. Also, take me out to the ball game is the most common/important/loved part of baseball culture, that deserves a mention, thats why we put it in. Also the style of play is really truly what baseball the soul of baseball is, IMO it belongs in this article even more than most of the rules mentioned, some of which are almost incidental to this article. —siroχo 02:52, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

The para after that I find objectionable as it mentions only MLB exploits. Would be more suited in another article. Also all 'players coming under pressure and scrutiny' is not solely a baseball trait, its common to all sports. Lots of other sports can also lay claim to what is mentioned in the subsequent para. [[User:Nichalp|¶ ɳȉčḩåḽṗ | ✉]] 20:16, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

It would be too much for me to verify if all the above objections are addressed. I place my good faith in you all. What I would like to stress on is; by all means link a term such as bullpen but also define what it is to avoid breaking the flow.

1. See this A hit that allows the batter to score on the same play is a home run could be rephrased to A hit that allows a better to score a run in that pitched ball is called a HR
2. does tagging also involve touching a player with the ball in his hands (or throwing it on him as a cruel alternative)?
3. how far away from the batter should the pitcher be? ~18 metres, I'm I correct?

[[User:Nichalp|¶ ɳȉčḩåḽṗ | ✉]] 20:34, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

1. Perhaps we should just define early on that each pitch is the beggining of a play (thats an accepted standard, nobody would argue that a play can extend for more than a pitch, I'll get on edititng this)

Actually, a "play" in baseball is almost always "an attempt to retire a runner." Think about how we talk: "Did you see that play at home? The catcher tagged the runner, got up, and threw--there was another play at second!" The sequence of events that begin with a pitch doesn't have a good term--I usually say "continuous playing action" when I need to be precise.--Locarno 13:50, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'm afraid I didn't catch the jargon [[User:Nichalp|¶ ɳȉčḩåḽṗ | ✉]] 19:59, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)

A "Play" in baseball continues until the action stops. Whenever two runners are retired after one pitch, it is scored as a double play (even if the second is caught in a rundown, its scored as a long double play), not as two unrelated outs (even a strike-out, throw-out play is a double play) Thats why I think we can safely mention what a play is in baseball. —siroχo 21:44, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)

I disagree--we never use this definition in common baseball speech, nor is it used in the rules. I think you are trying to apply a common term in other sports to baseball, where we actually use it differently in baseball. Think about how you would use the term "play", or how commentators use it: "Here's the play at the plate...he's safe!" Or "Hunter dives and he makes the catch! What a play!" This is also how we use the term in the context of force play, tag play, or appeal play. A double play is just that--continuous action with two plays. See also other authorities: [1]

I think we actually agree, as I said, a play continues until the action stops. Yes, announcers also use it to mean the individual interactions, but that doesn't mean its more correct than what the official scorer uses it to mean, both have a level of acceptance. Also, if I think about how I would use it, I use it both ways, like on an 8-3-5-4-6-1 flyball/rundown double play (which I've seen hehe), I'd still tell my friend "What a play! He caught it in shallow center, and tried to get the guy at home, but the first baseman cut it off, as the guy on second tagged up, and they caught him in a rundown", rather than "What a play on that catch, and also what a play on that rundown" —siroχo

Perhaps we will have to disagree, then. We umpires almost always define "a play" as "an attempt to retire a runner". I believe that is the definition that most people use without even thinking about it. A play that retires a runner at home starts with the throw to home, not with the pitch. For the purposes of explaining what a play is, I don't think we should be too precise; we can just explain the immediate context of what we are trying to say.

1. I'll try to define tagging in a way that doesn't break the flow. A ball must be held by the player when tagging, either in his glove or his bare hand, and the hand with the ball must do the tagging.
2. The pitcher's rubber is 60'6" from the plate, he must push off that to pitch. The batter stands in the batter's box which is in the vicinity of home plate, I'll look up the dimensions. That said, I think these exact facts might be better left in sub articles. They're a little incidental to the game, especially since the distances have changed over time (except for the 90' basepaths) and baseball field is the perfect article to get in depth with these. Someone reading about baseball for teh first time doesn't need to know too many specifics.

—siroχo 06:25, Sep 12, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, extra details can be kept on another page. Basically the following details IMO should be mentioned to get an idea of the playing area.

1. Distance between each base
2. Distance between pitcher and batter (also mention that the mound is centered in the diamond)
3. Height of the mound
4. General radius of the perimeter of the field
5. Safe zone area of the baserunner

That's all that I am really interested in. [[User:Nichalp|¶ ɳȉčḩåḽṗ | ✉]] 19:59, Sep 12, 2004 (UTC)

This is not the first time these criticisms have been addressed. About a year ago, the article was similarly confused and disorganized. I suggested that it be written, perhaps with [2] as a basis; I think this article is a brief, but clear and complex explanation of the important parts of the rules, suitable for an audience that is not familiar with baseball. This was eventually done. Then the article was edited and altered into the state in which you see it now. -- Dominus 14:20, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

---

This is what we have done in cricket:

1. There are two types of cricket played at the international level: Test cricket and One day internationals (ODI).
2. There are two types of cricket played at the international level: Test cricket (which consists of 2 innings per team, with batting alternating after the end of an innings; spread out over five days) and One day internationals (ODI) (single innings per team; each innings generally lasting for about three-and-a-half hours).

Which of the above two would you find more informative? Both the above are linked, and no doubt vastly different, but the most fundamental aspect of play between the two forms are mentioned in the latter. Can you replicate similar clarifications here? ✉]] 20:47, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure how important the two types of cricket are to explaining cricket, but my suspicion is that all I need to know as a stupid 'murrican wanting to learn cricket, that a match may consist of one or two (or more?) innings for each team. I see your point, though, and I'll look if there's any that need this, but this is a hard line to walk.

PS I've begun to edit the baseball page. [[User:Nichalp|¶ ɳȉčḩåḽṗ | ✉]] 20:47, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)

Statistics

First off, it'll be impossible to embed a discussion of each statistical element discussed in this article or it will become dry, long, and overly technical (as it was earlier, when many objected to it becoming a FA). If it seems reasonable, to skirt the problem of not including them at all, i've included a short section called "Statistics" that talks about their importance and some of the more common statistics. Is this what people want? —siroχo 07:36, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

I think the general idea of this proposal is right on target.

--Michael Snow 17:41, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Maybe this section should be even shorter, with more of its info moved to Baseball statistics? --Locarno 20:16, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Change in editing strategy

Instead, of solely nit-picking, I will try and clear up some disambiguations as I understand the sport. If what you find is slighty off base, then please make the necessary corrections, however, the above are needed to be explained as I have no clue as to what they mean --specifically "Shallow field"; line drive; bunt; field measurements (raised above) . [[User:Nichalp|¶ ɳȉčḩåḽṗ | ✉]] 19:59, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)

Fistly, thanks for your continued help with this article, even if I am a bit quick to defend things sometimes, I do appreciate your constructive criticisms and outside view. Anyways, I explained bunting in the batting section (this is basically what it is, a tap, anyone who really needs more info can use the bunt article). Also, I made some changes to your recent changes to the gameplay section. Baseball is different than cricket in that it is expected that runs will take more than one play (most of them do), so the over-emphasis that a batter may stop running seems a counterintuitive way to explain the game from scratch (in comparison to cricket, of course, it would be appropriate). Explaining that a batter may become a baserunner should be how this is conveyed. Also part of the main goal of batters is to enable other runners to score, so i put that part back in. —siroχo 21:28, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)

I'm not really satisfied with that paragraph, I will further edit it, we can agree on it. However, that edit of mine was not to my linking as I had messed it up. I have one minor objection -- that is (internal) bookmarking of the baserunner link. [[User:Nichalp|¶ ɳȉčḩåḽṗ | ✉]] 20:27, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

Forfeit necessary?

Siroxo, I noticed that you added a paragraph explaining forfeits. My inkling is that this is very rare and too obscure of a detail to explain in this article. Perhaps move to forfeit (baseball)? Another fact: a forfeit is recorded with the current score if the forfeiting team is losing after the game has become official. Also, please try again to make the article non-MLB-centric; 7-inning leagues' forfeits are 7-0. I'll wait for a reaction before I make these changes. --Locarno 13:20, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

They need not be explained in detail, but should be mentioned (at least briefly) for the sake of completeness. -- Emsworth 20:07, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Fix whatever you need to, I've never seen or participated in a forfeited game, I just got that info from Emsworth's post on FAC and from other websites. —siroχo

Problem sentence, introduction of info earlier?

Nichalp, you added this sentence into gameplay:

The goal of the pitcher is to get a batter out — dismiss him so that he cannot bat unless the remaining eight team members are out.

That is not entirely correct, all remaining 8 do not have to be out in order for him to bat again, his spot in the order simply needs to come up again (players who have not gotten out can be on base while he bats). Also, getting outs is the end in itself, the batter not being able to bat for another 8 batters is more of a side-effect. Also very few pitchers can consistently get batters out themself, most rely on the defense to get most of the outs. For now, I've changed it to this:

Each inning, the goal of the defending team is to get three members of the other team out.

However, this brings up the problem that we'll need to introduce the game structure earlier (innings, etc). This should probably be done anyways. I'll try to figure out how to do this without repeating too much information. —siroχo

Okay, i've added a bit of info about the nine innings, and three outs per inning early on in the gameplay section. The outs are explained soon after they are introduced so I don't think there's a problem introducing them so early. —siroχo

Plate appearance vs. at bat

This sentence was just added to the article in the Team at bat section, and I've removed it for reasons i state below.

A plate appearance always results in an at-bat unless the batter walks, is hit by a pitch, or hits a sacrifice fly or sacrifice bunt.

This is correct and important to baseball statistics, but I'm not sure if we should be introducing the reader to these nitpicky rules in the general baseball article. (Note that this sentence introduces the reader to HBP, Sac flies and Sac bunts all in one sentnece. We don't want to be stuck explaining those things in this article, and people dont' want to have to click a million new terms when they read the article (as Nichalp has alluded to before). For someone who wants to read a general article about baseball, the difference between the two don't really matter, they'll still get a good understanding of the game. For a newbie to baseball, it is actually somewhat confusing. Also this info is nearly irrelevent to the game of baseball, and only matters with regard to baseball statistics. Its included in the at bat article, and we should include it in the baseball statistics article (which will be expanded into a real article). So, thats why I've removed it —siroχo

My edits -- nichalp

Siroxo and Locarno: I have rewritten the baseball article to address all my objections and posted it here Baseball/temp/article. I have mostly promoted matter, made a few sections, removed redundant and repeated matter. I copied all the text to my word processor and hence links and images are absent. This was done offline. I also researched more on some more ways to get out. This is the way I see it, and I hope you can incorporate the same in the main page after copyediting. The part mentioning out, since the defination I gave is not correct, you will have to mention the correct defination. I have simplified all the jargon. However here's some matter I need to know:

• If a batter hits the ball does he have to compulsory run off?
• What is each base composed of? is it a rubber/concrete/earthen slab?
• Relief pitcher awarded a save?? what's that?
• limit to the number of substitites that can be used? most sports have a cap on the number of substitutes that can be employed in a match.

[[User:Nichalp|¶ ɳȉčḩåḽṗ | ✉]] 19:42, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)