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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by SimonArlott (talk | contribs) at 21:09, 13 September 2004 (→Removed list: dab). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Misc thing that didn't fit anywhere and that I just shoved here to be deleted quickly

Rumors of Enterprise's cancellation seem inappropriate - this is not a television forum, and the information is going to be outdated in a matter of weeks. Best to wait those two weeks and comment then, I think.Snowspinner 06:03, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Abbrev.

Why are the pages for the various series under strange abbreviations and not under the right names: Star Trek VOY versus Star Trek Voyager. It would be easier to link to them under their right names. ---rmhermen

I agree that Star Trek/Voyager would be better.

Also, what should be call the ships? I assume USS Enterprise-A (for example) not NCC-1701-A. Do we want U.S.S. or just USS?

-- General Wesc
I think we should give the full name and number once, like U.S.S. Enterprise (NCC-1701-A), then call them in a brief version, like Enterprise-A. -- Magnus Manske
I meant in the entry title. -- General Wesc

Okay, I've decided, until somebody disagrees, that entries for ships will be /USS Shipname (or /USS Shipname-A or whatever.) One thing I've learned, it's best to have a standard before we've got twenty-thousand entries all pointing to different places for the same ship. -- General Wesc

Agreed. --PSzalapski 20:31, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Star Trek's genre

Is Star Trek space opera, or science fiction/soft science fiction? I'm tempted to class it as space opera, but sometimes it does get a little bit philosophical about pseudo-scientific issues.

IMHO we might say Trek is Haute Space Opera.  :-)
ST (with the possible exception of DS9) doesn't really qualify as Space Opera under the "traditional" sense of, say, Doc Smith. Bob McDob 02:49, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
A friend of mine described Trek as Technofantasy with the assertion that there is relatively little "science" to the fiction and that the Transporter, Replicators, Warp Drives, Dilithium, Latinum, and other trappings are really more akin the swords & sorcery genre. I'm inclined to agree with him. I wouldn't class Trek as "space opera" because it simply isn't operatic --- it's episodic rather than epic. They are morality plays but they are not about events that are greater than the characters involved. (The DS9 war against the "Founders" in the Gamma Quadrant was the most epic ongoing plot development from all of the series). I dont' mean any of the pejoratively either.JimD 06:21, 2004 May 23 (UTC)
Star Trek has got to be "soft science fiction", unless you claim that nothing can be popular if it is true "science fiction"! --PSzalapski 20:34, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

TREKKERS vs TREKKIES

  • A few notes: one, why make this a subpage of Star Trek? What other kind of Trekkies have you heard of? two, it's not universally considered derogatory; in fact, some "trekkies" prefer to be called "trekkies," while other fans prefer "trekkers."
Ok, here's the deal. In the beginning all Star Trek fans were Trekkies. Then about the time when Star Trek started having conventions dedicated to it a new class of fan emerged. Instead of just enjoying the show these fans wanted to participate. For instance, these fans are likely to own Star Trek uniforms that they wear to conventions, club meetings and in extreme cases to work. They more likely than not consider Klingon a second language and own English to Klingon dictionaries. It is these super fans that decided Trekkie was demeaning and adopted the term trekker. The casual Star Trek fan doesn't mind being called a Trekkie.

A comment on this (Feel free to delete if inappropriate) --

  • I had always believed that "Trekkie" refers to fans who are new to the universe of Star Trek, while "Trekker" refers to those who have been fans for many years. For example, I consider myself a "Trekker" because I have been a fan since about 1994, whereas I consider my nephew a "Trekkie" because he has only been a fan for a year or so.
    • The distinction I always understood was that a Trekker might go to a Star Trek convention to see Leonard Nimoy and ask him what it was like playing such an interesting character, whereas a Trekkie would go along to meet Mr Spock and ask him to teach them how to mind-meld. (I was a babbler: I went to the Babylon 5 Wrap Party and actually met JMS and all I could do was babble :-) --Phil | Talk 07:11, Jun 17, 2004 (UTC)
      • That matches my understanding. --Locarno 15:20, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)
      • That's the opposite of how I always heard it. -Branddobbe 08:17, Jun 17, 2004 (UTC)

TNG Star Trek/Star Trek TNG now needs some new data, as I just deleted the overly-biassed description.

How do we link episodes? I'm thinking of doing a list of the episodes with the Borg that I know of for the Borg page.

-- Peter Winnberg

Subpages

I propose that we kill the / pages in the Star Trek articles in the same way as the / pages were removed in the Star Wars articles. The subpage functionality no longer works with the new wikipedia software so there is no real reason why the / pages should still extist. How many other instances of the terms Klingon, James T. Kirk or tribbles are likely to crop up in any context or mean anything other than they do in relation to the Star Trek universe? If an ambigutity issue does crop-up we can create disambiguation pages on a case by case basis and turn Star Trek term X into X (Star Trek) if another term is nearly equally used in English. However, if the non-Star Trek term is not nearly as widely known in English than the Star Trek one, then the text of the article should be about the Star Trek term with a link at the bottom to the non-Star Trek term. See Paris for an example of this type of disambiguation. Either way, we sould try to make linking to Star Trek terms as easy and natural as possible within edit windows -- I for one would not enjoy having to write [[Star Trek/Star Trek TNG|Star Trek: The Next Generation]] each time I wanted to link to that article and not expose the ugliness of the subpage link. In addition - contributions to the Star Wars articles seem to have significantly increased since I killed the / pages there (this probably has a lot to do with Attack of the Clones but easy linking within the articles couldn't possibly hurt the rate of contribs). If there are no loud protests, I will do this myself in a day or two. --maveric149, Sunday, May 26, 2002

OK, it's been a week since my warning and I am now going to follow through on my threat on killing the / pages in these articles and moving them to non-/ed titles. --maveric149
This is taking way longer than I thought due to slowness of the wikipedia server and the fact that I am having to hand fix hundreds of links and reformat each article. There are still several articles left over that need moving. I will get around to these later. Watch for broken links. --maveric149
Done. <rant>Damn! Moving everything around, and reformating each Star Trek page and link took almost 5 hours! This could have easily been done in 2 if wikipedia wasn't do dang slow.</rant> --maveric149

Theme music lyrics

I've read that Roddenberry wrote lyrics for the TOS theme music. These were suppsedly atrocious, and never intended for use, rather they were a way of getting a share of the royalties. However I've never actually seen them, and I have my doubts as to whether the royalties ploy would work (since the lyrics aren't part of the performed work...)

Can anyone substatiate this, or is it just an urban myth? -- Tarquin

someone's added them to Star Trek The Original Series. Seems they're not by GR. Another mystery solved at WIkipedia! -- Tarquin
Roddenberry did write them so that he would receive half of the music royalties, even though they would never be sung. This is documented in Solow and Justman's "Inside Star Trek". (Snopes has a page on this: http://www.snopes.com/radiotv/tv/trek1.htm ) -- Arteitle

The Klingons: Asian-Look-Alike

"...quite progressive and daring for the time, with the exception of the depiction of the Klingons as resembling Asians in their facial features." Is there any truth in this? I didn't think they look Asian-like. -- 203.109.254.51, 13 Feb 2003

Reset Button - term coined by some Trekkies to describe disturbance of time stream continuity." Isn't wikipedia supposed to be edited for better readability?
Also, "'"...quite progressive and daring for the time, with the exception of the depiction of the Klingons as resembling Asians in their facial features.' Is there any truth in this? I didn't think they look Asian-like. " In The Original Series, Klingons did look Asian. Tjdw 01:23, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)
They always looked like mongols-in-space to me, which I think was the intention. Roddenberry long claimed that they always were meant to look like the did in the films and in TNG, but they didn't have the budget in the 60s to show them that way. But since Roddenberry wasn't closely involved with the series when they were created (Gene Coon was in charge by that point, and he even wrote "Errand of Mercy"), and he was never one to shy away from taking credit for anything he could possibly take credit for, I've never really believed him. (I always thought the bumpy-head Klingons looked pretty stupid, anyway.) -mhr 04:19, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)
As I understand it, the Klingons were always supposed to have a sort of Mongolian look to them, especially in the original series. Trek made a habit, for good or ill, of creating alien races with strong parallels to Earth cultures in various degrees. The Romulans, for example, were clearly taken straight from the ancient Roman Empire. The Klingons were supposed to be Communist analogues in their conflict with the Federation, but were also apparently intended to be something like the invading Mongolian hordes in some respects. I can't comment too directly on the original intentions of the writers or makeup artists, but that's how I've always perceived them. -- MinutiaeMan 14:57, 2004 Jan 5 (UTC)
The Original series Klingons resemble Asians in the 30's pulp stereotype sense, i.e. Ming the Merciless - greasy-faced schemers. Bob McDob 02:54, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Romances of the captains

"forgotten what should be at the heart of the series and instead focus on action and scantily clad female aliens."

Ironcially The original series was all about scantilly clad women (that kirk always bedded in the end), and actions (which usually involved kirks shirt getting ripped) Paul Weaver 21:26, 11 Oct 2003 (UTC)

LOL! True... There was actually a Futurama episode like that, actually featuring the Star Trek crew, and Kirk was making out and shirt ripped. --Menchi 10:56, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)
"Where no fan has gone before", production series 4. Paul Weaver 20:33, 24 Nov 2003 (UTC)
This is something of a myth, since if you count it up (which I was once geeky enough to do), even stretching a few episodes a lo-o-ong way, only about 1/3 of the episodes end up with Kirk getting the girl. But, of course, it's more fun to perpetuate the myth. -mhr 04:19, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Maybe Kirk isn't particularly sex-stuffed when compared to real life people, but when I compare Kirk to Archer, Sisko, Janeway and Picard just from memory, Kirk seems to get the most. The rest get like...one romantic situation per season! Of course one can say Picard is too old and too wise to have any sex drive left... --Menchi 04:42, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Kirk's Lineage

Is "European-American" appropriate to describe Kirk? Shatner is Canadian, of course, and Kirk always struck me as a "very" American, with no real European ties.

-- Jordan

Well, considering 'european-american' is a euphemism for 'white', i guess so... Of course, Shatner claims Kirk is Jewish. Morwen 10:49, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)
In Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, I think Kirk says he's from Iowa (he "only works in outer space").
That is correct. --mav

Capt. April

Someone added this to the USS Enterprise page:

April (a precursor captian to Kirk)

Any truth to this? Or is it a joke? --rmhermen

Truth. Captain Robert Aprils was captain of the NCC-1701 before Christopher Pike, who preceded Kirk. --General Wesc
See also: Starship Enterprise. --Menchi 02:06, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)
The basis for this is a single episode of the animated series, but it's reasonable to include it on that basis, I think. It's prolly a good idea to shy away from treating anything from novels or comic books as "official". There are enough contradictions in the TV shows alone. -mhr 04:19, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)
He's actually on the "commemoration plaque" on the bridge set used on the original Star Trek's live action series, and they had an actor pose for a photo as April for some publicity once. It's definitely part of Star Trek lore. April and Pike both piloted the ship before Kirk, in Star Trek lore. -- user:zanimum
FYI, that publicity photo is Gene Roddenberry in a "Where No Man Has Gone Before" gold uniform. And the commemoration plaque for the NCC-1701 is simply "U.S.S. Enterprise, Starship Class, San Francisco, Calif." -- DarkHorizon 04:13, 2 Jan 2004 (UTC)
This is the first I've heard of it in nearly 30 years of being a Star Trek fan. My understanding is that "Robert April" was an early name for the captain of the ship (might have been the name in Roddenberry's original proposal to the network), but that the name Christopher Pike was eventually used. The first mention on screen of April was in the animated series. I'm extremely skeptical of reports like this at this late date; I'd want to see info from an original source dating before (at the very latest) 1980 before giving any credence to such a story. The Trek rumor mill is just too susceptible to taking stories that sound good and treating them as truth. -mhr 04:10, 2 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Diane Carey's book Final Frontier has Robert April captaining the Big E on its first trip out. April's a small part of the deuterocanon but not just rumor. Salsa Shark 04:17, 2 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Robert M. April was the name of the Captain of the "S.S. Yorktown" (the ship wasn't called Enterprise yet) in Roddenberry's initial pitch for the show[1]. This name was changed to Christopher Pike for the first pilot, and changed again to James T. Kirk for the actual series. AFAIK, the animated episode "The Counter-Clock Incident" first suggested that April 'really' existed within the Star Trek universe. -- Harry 22:38, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Memory Alpha

Through Google News, I discovered Memory Alpha, a Star Trek wiki project... Any idea if there was some melt down in the Star Trek section, and that's why this person decided to start up their own wiki? There's great information in here, it's not too inane to go in Wikipedia, if we could lure them in. - user:zanimum

  • Sounds like a good idea to me :) --Raul654 20:49, 30 Dec 2003 (UTC)
    • There's not been any fall-out that you know of? I can't remember any of the disgruntled Wikipedians having anything to do with the Star Trek section... we wouldn't be inviting a beast back into our lair or anything? -- user:zanimum
      • I'm one of the contributors to Memory Alpha. AFAIK, it has no connection to disgruntled Wikipedians (although at least one of our sysops is a user here), the Star Trek pages here, or Wikipedia, apart from the format, obviously. I've passed this link onto the sysops, so they can get back to you with the full story. -- DarkHorizon 04:22, 2 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I'm one of MA's sysops. The project is not in any way related and/or affiliated with Wikipedia. It was my idea to start up a Star Trek wiki, because there wasn't one yet, and the majority of 'conventional' databases are usually quite limited in their scope and POV. Together with a fellow Trekker, we settled for the MediaWiki software. Of course, you're all invited to join in. Wikipedia experience might even prove to be helpful, as we're still in a somewhat early stage. And FYI, the URL is http://memoryalpha.st-minutiae.com -- Harry 17:14, 2 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Hi Harry. Wow, you came to us, before I could even contact you! What my proposal is to you, would you like to merge your content into ours. All of your content so far is relevant, non-stubbish, well-written, and NPOV. You and your friend would still be able to write the same content, as you do in Memory Alpha, but we'd be able to make it higher profile and all. We'll be able to provide better access to your content, as we have higher search ratings, and we can help with promotion. No matter what your choice, I whole-heartedly encourage your wiki. Don't think of this as being assimilated, but more like joining the Federation. - user:zanimum
Exactly! Wikipedia is an encyclopedia of interlinked encyclopedias, so there is no reason not to have one of those encyclopedias be devoted to the Star Trek universe. --mav

I'm inclined to start putting a link to the corresponding Memory Alpha page (in an "external links" section at the bottom of the page) on Star Trek-related pages in Wikipedia? That would help funnel those who really want to create Star Trek pages to somewhere truly appropriate. Given some of the concerns folks have had about fictional universes proliferating in Wikipedia, I think it'd be reasonable to help funnel some of the Trek-related enthusiasm to this fantastic new Wiki. Anybody else agree? - Seth Ilys 14:43, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Good idea, no way to do it automatically I guess Paul Weaver
I'm the other founding sysop of Memory Alpha. As Harry said, we have no direct relationship with Wikipedia, although we both obviously contribute here. I had actually never even heard of Wikipedia before Harry suggested the idea, so I'm still fairly new to the whole concept and I'm still learning the ropes.
The idea of sharing the content back and forth with the Trek pages in Wikipedia is an intriguing proposal, to say the least. I definitely agree that it would help us get some more traffic and help build the web with more contributors. I'm somewhat concerned about the potential conflict in the differing policies between Memory Alpha and Wikipedia -- mainly, the fact that Wikipedia is a real-world reference project, and so requires certain phraseology that we can avoid in Memory Alpha, since we're "speaking" from inside the Trek universe. Also, as a Wikipedia contributor I'm not sure yet if I'm in agreement with the practice of including so much fictional information. But I just keep telling myself that Wikipedia is supposed to be big enough for everyone. <g>
This sure is a long post, isn't it? At any rate, I think we're definitely open to the prospect of sharing content across wikis. I've already used the Wikipedia article on Gene Roddenberry for our own page on him (with appropriate credit, of course). So I think there's definitely some potential there. -- MinutiaeMan 15:09, 2004 Jan 5 (UTC)
Actually, is there any need to give credit? --Raul654 16:21, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Yes, there is need to give credit! See Wikipedia:Copyrights. --mav 19:02, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Q as enemy?

Is Q really the "enemy" of TNG? I see him as more of a Puck-like figure, sometimes with bad results, sometimes with positive results, but I never got the impression he was evil, but just rather inconsiderate and amoral.

MSTCrow 11:56, May 22, 2004 (UTC)

I reworded the paragraph you're referring to, adding your excellent Puck allusion. He was usually treated as an enemy, but you're right that he went beyond this limited term in some novel ways. Hopefully I did him justice. -- Jeff Q 13:02, 22 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]


Enemy was certainly the wrong word. Antagonist? Adversary? Sure, but not "Enemy."JimD 06:21, 2004 May 23 (UTC)

"Franchise" is too specialised a wording?

This is indeed an excellent article and very worthy of its featuredness. I have one minor disagreement with it, which is the use of the word "franchise" to define it. "Franchise" is I think rather too mediaspeak for a generalist encyclopedia and might be baffling to those who just want to read the article but don't usually think about things in such terms. It would in my view be much better if the definition sentence explained really what it is without using jargon - it would be fine to then introduce "franchise" later on once it is becoming clear what happened in the history of its development. And remember TOS was not a franchise, so doesn't even fit into that definition - how many spinoffs and successors do you need to achieve franchise-hood? :) To most people (OK not maybe most wiki editors, SF fans, and Media Guardian readers [please substitute local equivalent here], but ordinary people) "franchise" means what it used to mean - burger bars or card shops or whatever! I'd be grateful if you could consider this point. Thanks. Nevilley 12:38, 22 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

No reply to this. Does this mean no-one has a view? :)
I agree, "franchise" should be removed entirely. - Centrx 19:21, 31 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]
As a non-native speaker of English I have come across this sense of the word "franchise" a couple of times. It is hard to find in dictionaries, which mostly deal with the burger bar thing. A better explanation would be welcome. Perhaps someone could add something to franchise and link to that from here?

I want to figure out what to call it, too. The dictionary doesn't list any meaning of "franchise" which fits the way it was used here. So, what is Star Trek? A "universe" consisting of several sequels and movies? I want to know what to call the larger collection which includes all the canon and non-canon material, but I have no idea what word to use. - Brian Kendig 15:13, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"Universal" style?

... a major departure from the more philosophical/intellectual and universal style of previous intros.

In the text quote above (from the Star Trek: Enterprise section), I don't understand what the author means by "universal" style. The Wiki link to the "Universal" disambiguation page doesn't provide any clue. I'm tempted to delete it and leave "philosophical/intellectual style". If there is some additional meaning "universal" contributes, it should probably be made clear. -- Jeff Q 13:14, 22 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

"most popular", or "second most popular" ?

"Star Trek is ... is, along with Star Wars, the most popular science fiction franchise of the late 20th century."

Well, which is it ? Is Star Trek "the most popular science fiction franchise of the late 20th century", or is it "the second most popular science fiction franchise of the late 20th century" ? Enough with the ambiguous waffling. I may just rewrite it unambiguously (but as far as I know, incorrectly),

"Star Trek is ... is the second most popular science fiction franchise of the late 20th century (Star Wars is the first)."

just to get enraged Trekkers to (a) fix it and (b) document the numbers. -- DavidCary 16:14, 22 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

What makes you think there is an answer to this question? Who would you expect to be the final authority? How would you compare Star Trek's multiple TV series and movies to the Star Wars sexalogy, since TV shows don't have box office numbers? Should book sales be included? How about pop merchandise? Fan clubs and their membership totals? Longevity? Prevalence in popular cultures around the world? Seems like a very hard thing to nail down. The only thing you could probably state with confidence is that Star Wars movies have earned more revenue than Star Trek movies ($3.5B vs. $1.1B worldwide, by one measurement), but that's hardly the only element of a late 20th Century science fiction franchise. ☺ -- Jeff Q 17:33, 22 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

This is an encyclopedia. It's supposed to contain a pile of objective facts. If this is subjective, we should say something like "Many people believe Star Trek is the second most popular science fiction franchise of the late 20th century".

I have no idea. But I have high hopes that some other Wikipedian does have a clue.

"a late 20th Century science fiction franchise" ? You make it sound as if this is a broad category of dozens of different franchises. Other than ST and SW and perhaps Babylon Five, I wonder what else fits in that category ?

Can we objectively say "The Star Trek television series was the most popular science fiction television series of the late 20th century" ?

I'm really just reacting to the ambiguity of "... is, along with ___, the most popular ...". It reminds me too much of meaningless phrases like "one of the only ..." and "...up to $10,000 or more.".

-- DavidCary 03:24, 23 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, DavidCary, it's bad Wiki practice to insert new comments into the middle of another person's comments. It works in emails because those are typically dialogues, but on a Wiki Talk page, it makes it very hard for people coming in later to identify who said what and to understand the flow of the discussion. I've committed a second wrong to make a right by restoring my original comment and making yours contiguous. I apologize for this.
Second, I agree with your dissatisfaction over the vagueness of the statement. I'm inclined to go along with your lastest wording suggestion because it removes both the ambiguity and the controversy. I would also say it's accurate. Personally, I think Babylon 5 (the original series) was a better show, but Star Trek, in all its forms, has been vastly more popular. I don't think it has any serious competition on that popularity front. -- Jeff Q 03:52, 23 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]
I would say it's a toss-up as to whether Star Trek or Star Wars is the more popular franchise. Mainly because there's no common basis for comparing the popularity of the two, since they mostly exist in slightly different media (television vs. cinema). I think it's accurate to say that Star Trek is one of the two most popular science fiction franchises, but not demonstrably accurate to place it either first or second. -mhr 05:10, 23 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]
Let me make an explicit suggestion incorporating DavidCary's phrasing and a nod to Star Wars.
The Star Trek television series is the most popular science fiction television series of the late 20th century, and arguably the most popular science fiction series of all time. Its cultural impact and financial success is rivalled only by the massively popular Star Wars movie series, which repeatedly set box office records.
I'm still not happy about "most popular SF series", since this discounts classic written SF works like Asimov's Foundation series (although it could be argued that Star Trek characters and storylines are much better known among the general population than Hari Seldon and the Foundation). I'd like to phrase it explicitly about moving-picture (vs. book) SF, but my frazzled brain can't come up with a satisfactory term that elegantly includes both movies and TV.
I don't plan to add this entry or other variation myself, as I don't really have a vested interest in this article (despite my initial, pesky comments!), but I offer it as grist for the contributor mill. ☺ -- Jeff Q 09:28, 23 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

DS9 Bajoran or Fed outpost?

A recent update changed the wording of Deep Space 9's description from a "Federation outpost" to a "Bajoran outpost under Federation control". Even though that sounds right to me (though I'm not absolutely sure), it raises an interesting question. Why would a Bajoran outpost adopt the name "Deep Space 9"? The "Deep Space" nomenclature comes from Starfleet; i.e., the Federation. (Witness the occasional mention of other Deep Space # stations throughout ST:TNG and the other series and movies.) Wouldn't the Bajorans change its old Cardassian name of Terok Nor (sp?) to a Bajoran one? The station certainly isn't in "deep space" relative to Bajor! -- Jeff Q 10:01, 24 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

The station was established as officially Bajoran early and often, and this fact was also used as a plot point several times. Some Bajorans on the show were quite upset that the Federation was running their station--these characters saw it as a change from one evil regime to another not-quite-as-evil regime! The name of Deep Space 9 certainly doesn't fit in with all the other Federation "Deep Space #" stations. Perhaps one could rationalize that the Federation gave it a name when the Bajorans failed to do so? The station was constructed by Cardassians, so it is likely that the Bajorans called it nothing but "Terok Nor" previously. Thanks for the comment! --PSzalapski 20:50, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Characters

These lists of characters should be in the articles for the respective series' and films. They remain here for reference. Characters common to many of the "regions" of characters, like Q, still belong in this article.

Star Trek characters

Original crew of the USS Enterprise NCC 1701

Regular crew of the USS Enterprise NCC 1701

Regular crew of the USS Enterprise NCC 1701-D

Regular crew and civilians of the Federation Station Deep Space Nine

Regular crew of the USS Voyager NCC-74656

Regular crew of Enterprise NX-01

Other Characters

Star Trek computer/video games producers

In section Games, "subsection" Computer/video games, I would very much like to see the year of release and the producing company's name, for each game, instead of a list of producers on top. I have started doing this for a few games (listed the producers at least) but could do with some help. Also, in the future, we should perhaps list the games' platforms, so readers might get a picture of which computers/video game consoles have been 'supported by Star Trek' at various times. --Wernher 21:42, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)


Comparisons: alien races vs. real world ethnical groups

How can you seriously mean that Bajorans have anything to do with Israel or Jews? Their great pride is art and culture, and it's quite obvious that this planet (read country) is Greece. Greeks were also under occupation for a long time, treated badly....read: cardassians are probably Turks. :-)

  I feel that the section at the end of the "Star Trek and society" part is quite vulnerable to POV. People have a lot of different interpretations, and different aspects of an alien race could be interpreted different ways. Take a look at the bajorans. I noticed that somebody just changed their affiliation from "jews" to "greek". When it comes to the work/internation camps, I agree that one would compare it to the jews in Europe during WW2. But when it comes to religion, it would probably be closer to the greek. Living in occupied land, I think about the palestinians.
  A similar approach could be taken on the Federation. "Socialism" is mention as the represented ideology. I don't think everybody agree to that. As a social-liberal, I would claim that it's just as much (and maybe more) social-liberalism being represented. Somebody told me that Roddenberry was an objectivist. That could well be, considering Picard protecting the prime directive's isolationism (not interfere with other species interal affairs etc.).
  The point is, there is not one correct interpretation, so if we are going to have a list like that, we must be open to allow different views, and ADD to the list, instead of REPLACING entries. Mendalus 03:48, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Removed list

"Alien species and political powers in Star Trek often have iconic properties. In some cases these have been directly envisioned by writers, and in others perceived such by fandom. Some examples:

"

I removed the above because it looks suspiciously like offensive, racist crap based on nothing but someone's stupid perceptions. If Earth had been intended to represent the USA then wouldn't it have been called 'USA' and Enterprise not given a multiracial crew? DJ Clayworth 15:27, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

A few of the above are pretty well substantiated. The Romulan-Romans association, for example, has been obvious since "Balance of Terror". I think the connection between Earth (or the UFP) and the United States has some merit, too. Many of the internal problems the UFP faces are those of living in a democracy—the best government, except for all the others. In Insurrection, our heroes face evil machinery set in motion by the government which must be overturned using the democratic process. (Remember Ru'afu's rant about "Federation opinion polls"?) This resembles a present-day America, expanded to Galactic scale to make its problems more evident (perhaps the classic trick of science fiction). At other times, the UFP resembles what its creators think Earth and the USA should be. I trust everyone remembers "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield", where Lokai and Bele chase each other across the Galaxy, the last two survivors of apocalyptic racial hatred. Spock overhears Lokai haranguing the crew in the cafeteria, and Chekhov delivers the immortal line, "But there was prejudice on Earth once. I read about it in history textbooks." In The Undiscovered Country, the President claims to be "not above the law"; we certainly hope this to be the case in America.
I've heard that the powers-that-be cooked up the name "Suliban" to follow "Taliban"; this sounds so corny it just might be true. (Anyone have any Paramount memoranda to back this up?) Rather than merely listing the correspondence, it may instead be more useful to give the historical basis—i.e., the writers made it that way—and then describe how their portrayal has changed in the following years. (Had there been no 11/9, wouldn't the United Statesians see the Taliban rather differently? I can see an alternative history where the producers never needed a new set of baddies, and the Xindi were never invented.) Similarly, the rationale for comparing Bajorans to Greeks is interesting, and I find it quite titillating to see the same group joined with both Palestinians and Jews. Wouldn't it be better to make the comparison a paragraph, instead of a bullet point?
OK, OK, I should have researched before yapping my mouth off. Berman and Braga reveal their dark secrets in an interview[2], linked from the ST:ENT page.Anville 13:48, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The list contains Jews in three places, linked with Vulcans, Ferengi, and Bajorans, as if three different aspects of the stereotype were being parodied. (Talmudic logic, lending money at interest, and suffering persecution, I suppose.) Historically, of course, none of these traits are unique to the Jewish diaspora, and a Star Trek article is probably not the proper place to investigate whether we more commonly associate Jews to those characteristics than any other groups. If Trekkers have made substantial speculation on this matter, we should report the speculation, but otherwise I don't see the point. Whoever first invented the Ferengi, for example, may have wanted to satirize capitalism in general; if we then turn around and say that the Ferengi were built out of Ashkenazi stereotypes, we are not only being prejudiced, we are committing a logical fallacy. (Worse than a crime, it's a blunder.)
If there is a solid historical reason for linking Bajor to Palestine, say—if the writers admit to it—or if the fan community has discussed long and hard about it, then the article should report that, and indicate which way it is. Being even-handed Wikipedians, we should naturally report all sides to these debates: any statement that Bajorans resemble Jews for being persecuted should be paired with the note that the same logic joins them to the Palestinians. (Sorry historical commentary, isn't it? But this isn't the place. . .) I'm sure that fannish discussions bring up one such argument right after the other, in true Trekker fashion. (This might be a special case of a general trait; compare the cultural portrait drawn in the Jargon File. I've been a party to many SFnal debates, and most of them delve into—sorry to say it—almost Talmudic reasoning.)
The United States is pretty damn "multiracial"; I can only assume the "races" mentioned above are different humanoid species. Well, again, expanding Terran problems to a wider scope is one of the canonical ways science fiction addresses modern society and makes itself relevant. (This is one reason I love Asimov's human-only Galaxy, since it avoids the Trekkish problem of giving entire species the same personality type. Oh, sure, the best Trek stories rise above this, but we all know what Klingons are like, and when one isn't a war machine we certainly make a grand occsion out of it. But anyway. . .) Cyberpunk SF does the same thing by expanding human issues into societies of cyborgs and AIs, but having been born before Neuromancer, the Original Series had to include Vulcans, Romulans, Andorians and the lot.
I suggest taking the best-supported items from this list and expanding them into (brief) paragraphs. As such, they may be better suited in the articles on the respective races, but they would certainly be easier to discuss and clarify. I'll attempt to do this; someone had better beat me to it.
Anville 18:03, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The subject needs to be dealt with. Star Trek is famous for taking real-world ideological/political/ethinic groups and then thinly disguising them, and dealing with their issues in storylines. Sometimes 'Trek' didn't even disguise the allegory, and bluntly hit you over the head with it, as with "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" on race relations, and "Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country" with its oh-so-subtle (NOT!) take on the collapse of the Soviet Union. Whether or not anyone agrees with the list's presence in the article - and I agree with Mendalus that it is vulnerable to POV - the overall fact that Trek has always used human and alien races to present perspectives on real-world issues needs to be addressed in an encyclopedic article about 'Trek.'

If the list is not the right way to do it, fine, then we need suggestions. A paragraph might cover it, though I think it might be possible to write a whole article about the subject. How do we tackle the subject here in a sensitive, NPOV manner? Kevyn 22:13, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I'm the one that added this section to the page. I expected it to be controversial, but am surprised at how long it took.
I'm sure that most of the stuff I posted has been substantiated in books/magazines. When I get a chance, I'll go through and see, unless someone else does first.
This is the list as I originally stated:
"Alien species and political powers in Star Trek often have iconic properties. In some cases these have been directly envisioned by writers, and in others perceived such by fandom. Some examples:
This info is based in part on a thread from rec.arts.startrek.tech
There's plenty of material there for discussion.
As for the Suliban/Taliban (who someone changed to Al-Qaeda), the link someone posted here says that they only have the name in common, with no thematic connection, so I'd remove that.
Regarding DJ Clayworth's comment "the above [...] looks suspiciously like offensive, racist crap based on nothing but someone's stupid perceptions," I think a lot of philosophy is garbage, but I still acknowledge that other believe in it. The article did not state that these comparisons were facts; only that "in some cases these have been directly envisioned by writers, and in others perceived such by fandom."
Finally, I think this list belongs on the main Star Trek page, while explanations can be given on individual races' pages. (The above post was made by StAkAr Karnak) - Acegikmo1 03:20, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)
IMO, some of the list should stay, some should go. Comparing the Ferengi to Jews may have a historical precedent, as Jews were moneylenders during the Middle Ages, but I think it's open to accusations of racism. The Suliban-Taliban connection is documented in the Star Trek: Enterprise article, so it should stay. I'm not really sure how the comparison of Vulcans to the British came about.
Acegikmo1 03:16, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"There is indeed plenty of material for discussion, and rec.arts.startrek.tech is exatly the place for it. An encyclopedia should deal with facts. I think we should restrict our parallels to cases where the authors intended there to be such a parallel.

It looks to me as though there are several categories of association here. First there are ones clearly intended to be parallels by the authors, into which seem to fall the Romulans/Rome, Suliban/Taliban. Some are a bit more generic - for example the Cardassians are clearly intended to be Imperialist agressors, but is there really any reason to think they represent one particular apressor rather than another. Finally there are cases where someone has clearly just though "Hey these guys remind me a bit of....". Vulcans=British clearly falls into that category. What we really need to do is distinguish between these (and preferably eliminate the last one, since it's wildly subjective). DJ Clayworth 15:09, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC) DJ Clayworth 14:01, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Bad rendering

Why is the following failing to render in bold?

Acegikmo1 04:18, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Because it sees a group of 3, then a group of 2, and a group of five, and gets confused. Put a space in the middle of the last group as I've done, to make it look like '' '''' instead of '''''. --Golbez 05:32, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Should Star Trek have it's own Stub page?

Just wondering... should we have a Star Trek stub page? Allyunion 14:14, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You mean a list of Star Trek stubs, or what? --Golbez 14:26, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Ya, that's what I'm specifically referring to, with maybe a template to go with it. Something like trek-stub: This article is a Star Trek stub. You can help Wikipedia by expanding it. Allyunion 13:18, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Moving to series articles

This article is far too long. It contains more information about TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY than their individual pages do. I think a lot of information needs to be moved out of this article and into the pages about each specific series, but I'm not sure how to determine what should still remain here. Any ideas? - Brian Kendig 18:03, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I've taken the first step by merging the TOS section into Star Trek: The Original Series. I intend to work on merging data from here into the other series' articles as soon as I get a chance. I figure this Star Trek article has enough to do, summarizing the planets, characters, comics, undeveloped series, novels, fan fiction, pop culture, and future of the franchise; it doesn't need to duplicate too much info about the individual series. Though I'd still like to have more than just a link to the series articles - what do you think belongs here from 'em? - Brian Kendig 17:05, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

  • I propose a brief summary, maybe one paragraph and then link to an approprate lengthly article. I think we should keep the fan history here and the overall show history. --Allyunion 06:57, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I changed the "Star Trek: The Next Generation" and "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" headers into links, that link to their obvious own section. It had already been done for Enterprise and Voyager, so I didn't see a reason for them not to be done. If TOS and the animated series have their own sections, I suggest doing it there too, for consistency. Spinboy 16:50, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this up. I was pondering this - I think it doesn't make sense for a section heading to be a link to another article. Especially since I put "For more information, see Star Trek: The Next Generation" in the section to make sure people know there's another article, and that links to the same place. I feel that the section headings shouldn't be links, and I was also considering removing the years from the section headings, because that's also redundant and IMHO the heading should just be a simple statement of what's in the section. What do you think? - Brian Kendig 18:00, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

wp WP:MOS

I think the Manual of Style agrees with you. "Avoid links within headings. Depending on settings, some users may not see them clearly. It is much better to put the appropriate link in the first sentence under the header." Common usage is " Main article: Main article " - David Gerard 18:18, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I think even though they have their own sections, they should have a paragraph or two summary of the series, and I've seen the header's linked in other articles, so I see no reason it can't happen here. I also think the other articles should link back to the main one. Spinboy 18:19, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Star Trek Timeline or History

A thought came to me when I was exploring the Wikipedia and I ran into the World War III article. Is there some kind of Star Trek timeline or something regarding the events of the future in some kind of outline or something? Star Trek's history with the 20th century is slightly different from the actual history of our own. Perhaps it may be worthly to create an entry on the subject regarding the difference between actual history and Star Trek's fictional history -- along with any jumps and visits in time that should be included... obviously, the top of the page would require a spoiler warning. Kind of like a timeline of all the shows in a brief summary, using Stardates and real dates (whenever possible). --Allyunion 10:38, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Is Timeline of Star Trek along the lines of what you are considering? Right now it has only spotty coverage, without much indication of which series portrays or refers to any given event.
Anville 13:06, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)


Star Trek: TAS not canon?

I noticed on the TAS page it states that Gene Roddenberry also requested soon before his death that the series not be considered canon Can this be supported with evidence? Mysteronald 23:24, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Spot (Star Trek)

The article Spot (Star Trek) is currently up for VfD. Please see the VfD Discussion page to either help keep or delete the page. --[[User:Allyunion|AllyUnion (Talk)]] 06:03, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The Kiss

It's entirely possible that they have inserted the "kiss shown" version in newer broadcasts of the show. But the original broadcast had it blocked, according to the IMDB and other sources I've read. But I WAS wrong; I said it was Kirk's head, it was actually Uhura's. Relevant passages from the IMDB:

The first interracial kiss on American network television was in the episode "Plato's Stepchildren," which aired on 22 Nov 1968, when Captain Kirk ( William Shatner) kissed Lieutenant Uhura ( Nichelle Nichols). The studio expressed some concern, and it was suggested instead that Spock should kiss Uhura 'to make it less of a problem for the southern [US] audience'. Some stations in the South originally refused to air the episode. Kirk did not kiss Uhura *voluntarily*; they were forced to do it by aliens controlling their bodies. So the first interracial kiss, although between two of the good guys, was the moral equivalent of sexual assault.
Despite the controversy of the first interracial kiss of Kirk and Uhura on television in the episode "Plato's Stepchildren," they never actually kissed on-screen - Kirk turns away from the camera as they draw closer keeping Uhura in front of him, obscuring the fact that their lips stay an inch or so apart.

They could be wrong. --Golbez 14:36, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

Make no mistake about it, in many, many interviews and books, Mr. Shatner has admitted that he had, up to that point, wanted to kiss Ms. Nichols on screen. --AllyUnion 13:26, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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