User talk:Mav
If you've been frequenting the RecentChanges page, you might already expect that I am a Wikipediholic -- yep, I admit it (score = 82).
Problem now is, sleeping has switched from a full (i.e. normal) to part time occupation.... oh well - you only live once, there's plenty of time to rest later...
I oftentimes give quick, seemingly unkind and terse comments on talk pages and especially in edit summaries. However meanness is not at all the intent, just efficiency. This is a quirk of my rare personality type: INTJ. I do try to moderate what I say and how I say it -- mainly because my terseness sometimes leads to inefficient chit chat to resolve misunderstandings on talk pages.
Just wanted to say that you are doing a lot of good here and that's good. Vera Cruz
- Thank you! In spite of our differences I think the same about you. :) --mav
Mav, I wanted to say a word of thanks for your part in putting together the new main page. It's a real improvement and a lot of it is a result of your hard work - thanks! Enchanter
- Thank you! Although this really was a group effort. If it had only been me then the product would not have been nearly as good. --mav
Hi mav. you mentioned on Main page talk that "Come to think of it we might want to eventually consider moving all day pages to the [day month] format." eeeek! that's going to be even more work than the orders of magnitude stuff. but count me in for the grunt work if we eventually decide to go ahead with this. -- Tarquin 11:34 Jan 15, 2003 (UTC)
- Will do. But I'm doubtful that moving these pages will be a popular idea. We may have to settle with making 366 redirects. --mav
Hi, I've tweaked the Recent Changes at the test wiki yet again ([1]), using the ± for diff, and Ø for history (lacing a nicer symbol and the time to draw an icon;-) Should I better work on that table? I vaguely remember some proposal of an advanced table, from someone... --Magnus Manske 22:45 Jan 15, 2003 (UTC)
- Having the cur and hist in front is a big help. But please do use "cur" and "hist" instead of the special characters - I was lost at first. I seem to be one of the few people who actually used the table in Phase II so I don't think making a table would be a priority. But it would be nice nonetheless. --mav
- They're now diff and hist (currently in the Godfather version ;-) --Magnus Manske 16:22 Jan 16, 2003 (UTC)
Those condemations were mostly from Ericd and Zoe. If you look at the articles to which I have contributed and the related talk pages, you’d see that the vast majority of these crticicisms have been discounted by other users who were more informed about the topics of those articles. You’d also see that the vast majority of all my contributins have survived dozens of revisions by some highly intelligent, expert contributors.
If those charges were anyting but baseless slander, why would the vast majority of my contributions remain intact, in spite of the fact that I stopped paying attention to most of those “controversial articles” weeks ago?
Those attacks, by the way inadvertenly attack higly valued contributors who have edited and embraced the bulk of these contributions.
- This isn't about the "vast majority" of your edits. It is about the few that cause edit war after edit war and your seemingly arrogant attitude in general. I have not yet expressed an opinion on whether you should be banned because I have seen you improve greatly in the NPOV department since your first edits. But now I am beginning to think that you can not improve any more. You really should try to talk about this on the mailing list - otherwise the only people Jimbo will be hearing from is the group of people (yes there are more than two) who either are calling for you to be banned or at least think you are a disruptive influence. --mav
Edit wars regardless. I can’t think of a single instance when expert contributors did not jump in and save the bulk (not all, of course) of my contributions in a single edit war. Many of these wars involved several users in particular (I won’t name names) just arbitrarily deleting any contribution that I made. It’s also strongly evident on talk pages (New Imperialism in particular) that I’m the first to embrace changes to my text when it is taken seriously and not dismissed off-hand. In academia I never encountered such cannibalistic, off-hand dismissal. I was just thrown-off by that at first, explaining the issue of arrogance. My instinctive response has been to reciprocate these uninformed dismissals with arrogance. Now, I’m a bit more used to that.
As for that page that you’re recommending, I’m not sure how to use it.
- Trying to prove yourself right to me won't help you on the mailing list (as a matter of fact the arrogance you continue to show is making me begin to favor your banning). I've already stated this is not about the majority of your edits -- it is about the small, but constant steam of edits that are disruptive. --mav
But I’m trying to suggest that those “disruptive edits” were usually eventually embraced.
I’m not exactly sure what this mailing list is either.
I’d appreciate it if you could paste these notes on it, whatever it is.
- Follow the link I provided on your talk page to sign-up. For background on the list see Wikipedia:Mailing lists. It is up to you to show that you can be a productive and non-disruptive member of the community. --mav
Tens of thousands of words of text embraced after dozens of edits by dozens of contributors already demonstrate this. You yourself admitted that I balanced many articles. That’s what I’ll continue to do to prove that I can be a productive contributor. If that doesn’t work, then ban a historian from working on the history articles. I get paid for other "contributions" anyway.
- Again, arrogance and overstating both your support and the quality of your contributions. I have better things to do than argue with you - I hear there is an encyclopedia to write here. --mav
I will try to articulate why I make each revision better in the talk pages. That I’ll do from now on. I’ll better explain why older versions need to be balanced, understanding that some users are not familiar with some perspectives better.
Keep in mind that I’m a relatively new user who wasn’t familiar with the cooperative nature at first. For that I’ll apologize.
But bias is another story. I have not been “biasing” articles, just failing to articulate flaws in earlier versions well enough.
As for overstating quality, it can be empirically verified that dozens of well-informed contributors have accepted the bulk of my text in dozens of edits.
- Just because much of your edits stand does not make them brilliant prose. But I do detect a willingness on your part to change so for now at least I will mildly support not banning you and will point others to your talk page and mine. --mav
IMHO you're also overstating the vigilance of many contributors about NPOV. Ericd
There are also those of us who have given up in disgust at doing anything with any of 172's "brilliant prose". -- Zoe
Like you and me ? Ericd
Do you see what I mean? Knee-jerk, sarcastic personal criticisms from the same people, Zoe and Ericd. But they’re inadvertently attacking the users who have welcomed my contributions. Again, why have mostly they survived dozens of rounds of editing if they’re all as questionable as Zoe and Ericd feel?
- Speaking of quality, can you write in complete sentences and perhaps tell me what page you are talking about? --mav
What are you so testy about? Been spreading your stamp of approval too thinly?
I was trying to be descrit: Turn every comma into a period capitalize as usually. Full sentences. Authority falls to Quality.
You don't even like me and I am trying to save you boat loads of embarrasment? You know where to find it
- If you are going to continue being obstinate then please stop trying to "warn" me. I am involved with mediating half a dozen article disputes at the moment and I don't care to play guessing games. It also wouldn't be the end of the world if I were wrong about something - it wouldn't be the first time. --mav
Mav, per the NPOV policy please do not state opinions as facts. Your latest contribution to the Joseph Smith article looks like an anti-Mormon plug-cut&paste. In accordance with NPOV policy, pertinent opposing views related to the LDS Church or Mormonism should be included. However if you are going to add these yourself and you can't find a good attribution to the opinion at least put something like, "dectractors of the LDS Chuch claim...." Frankly some things you added were just plain lies. E.g., while the KSS may have been indebted to its patrons, Joseph was not personally indebted himself. Further, the material you presented made it sound like Joseph skipped town to avoid trial as well. In fact, Joseph was still in town when the case was decided and later appealed the ruling as illegal. Mav, what I'd like to suggest to you, is that when you find something interesting about the LDS religion is to please research further and look at all sides of these issues. Many of these so-called controversies have been addressed and the amateurish anti-Mormons completely ignore the research and rehash or cut&paste the same lousy and slanderous claims. Catch-you-around. B
- I was updating nearly every article on the January 12 page and this was a piece of information I came across. The information in the Jan 12 article differed from that in the Jo Smith page so I did a little Googling to find some additional information. Several sites I visited had the information that I put into the article. Yes, I should have qualified the statement given who Mr. Smith was - I understand that the Morman church may not be particularly proud of that point (if true). But I don't have any issue with the text you replaced it with and don't care to look through court papers to see the exact date of the trial and whether Mr. Smith was there so I will leave it alone. --mav
Mav how did you track down those recipes, my googling couldn't pin them down. Mintguy
- Er, uh, I Googled. [2] --mav
Why is there a horde of people calling me a troll? Vera Cruz Why is this Isis person saying these things and refusing to even hint at what I did to make her upset? And likewise Tarquin!
- Because you are causing petty edit wars and causing a great deal of work and frustration for other users. I know you can do better - please lay low for a while or you will be banned again Adam. --mav
My name is not Adam. Vera Cruz
- Oh? Brion did some checking and found out that the email address you have specified for your user account is registered to a Adam Rinkleff. --mav
I changed my email. It is now cddvdlenscleaner@yahoo.com The only edit war Im involved in is at New Imperialism with 172. That isn't really "petty edit wars". Thats one edit war on a article that needs editing. Vera Cruz
- Again - it would be best if you dropped that one. You also seem to now be in the minority as to what is best for that article. --mav
- Nice dodging answering why you're here since you're Lir, though. Koyaanis Qatsi
Well if I was Lir and I said I wasn't, you wouldn't believe me. And if I was Lir and I didn't respond you'd keep thinking the same, so really all answers are the same so why bother answering?
As for being in the minority regarding the article, first off there isn't really any discussion there so there isn't a minority or majority. Second, there isn't any discussion there so there...yah...
If you are interested...should an article on the period 1870-1914 with emphasis on international politics take time out for a two paragraph reminder that america and russia are both empires, although different from each other, and a reminder that rome was an empire, and a discussion of when the word imperialism was coined and by whom and what they meant and then how it came to mean what it means today by the time that the period in question began...or should it be moved to imperialism where the text is talking about that subject...
I think wikipedia should add some chatrooms, would solve a lot of problems. Vera Cruz
- The reason there currently isn't much discussion is because your actions have driven-off the other participants - who were getting through to and working with 172. Please stop trying to justify yourself - I am one of the few people who think you can be a productive member of the community due to the improvements in character you have made since you changed your user name. There still are some rough edges though. --mav
Hi, Mav! I saw your note to Arthur. That would not explain why I am also blocked from certain pages, TTF-Bucksfan for one. Especially since I also have sysop status. Danny
See what I mean? If I say too little then Im criticized for that and If I say too much thats no good either. I mean jeez. All Im saying is why is it necessary to discuss the complete evolution of the word imperialism on a page besides imperialism. Vera Cruz
mav lockdown Sv rule has been inaugerated. Two16
- Talk:Irish Potato Famine and follow the links.
Learn how to play a role:
- Learn to stop an edit war EPR paradox
- Learning how I leveraged my self to improve scalability. scientific method
That's all for now. You were on the wrong side of the histories for a very long time, Militiaman.
- That's funny - Only you and Sv seem to tink so. In addition, everybody else who has looked into the matter agrees. --mav
mav I have credibility that you have lost fratranizing with the enemy you don't have to go down in with the tyrant. You do not understand the geometry of the situation. [two16]]. mav you must follow the trail. Didn't you read the brand new article about how to read a poem. Number three in the search engine poem. talk archive 7 mav you signed off on the article as npov Find out where the ridicule leads. Something is happening and you don't know what it is. You have had significant lapses of judgement and it shows. I have work to do, figure it out mav. mav lockdown Sv rule has been inaugerated. Two16
- "lockdown Sv rule"? What the hell are you talking about? You have 0 credibility around here BTW. And I'm not the only one to think so. Have you even read all my posts to the famine talk page? The last one was against deleting all of Sv's genocide section. You really need some serious help - you tend to see tyrants were there are none. --mav
- Your silence speaks volumes. --mav
It speaks to other priorities. You must slow down. Take cognitive control of your temperment:
You were on the wrong side of the histories for a very long time, Militiaman. (original posting is directly above your 1st comments)
mav there is an end game still being played, it was won long ago. I don't need to have credibility because its all in black & beige. All I need is a hearing. You will not be able to stop me. The Ethos will not let you. When You and Jtl tried to lockdown Sv, he turned the words against Jtl and YOU. How much credibility do you have? You and he are both hystercally on record as saying that the article was npov and a bunch of other thing too. I'm Canadain: We stand on Guard. And that's exactly what I am doing in IPF. I read the article till I came to a paragraph that I could not accept in any encyclopedia. When I left a comment I was treated as a stereotype for no reason whatsoever. My objection was not met let alone understood. When follow-up produced more logical fallacy and repetition.
I knew that I was in for the long haul. An historian had become the dictator on IPF, aided and abbetted by a sysop. When response must be given, you will have to give account and you will not be able to give a good one. I am not trying to be mean and hurtful.
Did you not notice that I was not in the edit war? What the Heal was I doing? All that time, all those ignored words, what purpose would they serve? With a sysop overseeing it, there couldn't possibly be a more futile thing. Well I was there to see that went further wrong. I used the talk pages as I should. I went into the article to pull quotation marks from around genocide in a subtitle. "Irony Quotes" Say it and make the finger motions like Seinfeld. Some historians need sensitivity. The text is littered with that punctuation. And you had the hubris to call it npov. So lockdown --- like a prison
Sv ------------ wikipededian
Even after Sv, who was locked out of discourse, capitalized a sample of egreious words, you mav didn't get it. Jtl who uses the convention of internet shouting didn't get it. He even posted it on talk:Ipf. He actually read them, selected them, chose which page to post. I thought that Sv had made his point: the text was pov and that authority abusing npov. There is no other possible explanation. Why did it take you so long to get it?
I didn't get involved with the edit war: you did. You did. You however made it worse. You increased its ferocity and its length. And then you dictated.
I think that you are less credible than you think. mav's Boo Balloon burst.
mav I know that edit war: I was studying it. It was war and it was abuse of power. I wrote for posterity. You failed on so many levels and I save it in real time. Even if you had used your sway, to have proper archieving, you would have earned my respect. You were so blind to Wikipedian Ethos that you did get the opposing sides to frame each others arguements. You imposed you will over reason. You didn't critique faulty arguements. You didn't get summaries done. Were you so blinded by authority that you lost sight of of our ethos. mav a little graciousness would help now. 216
- No balloon to burst - esp by you. If you think Sv's very POV charged edits that were marked as minor and summarized as being formatting-related were at all justified (even to make a point) then there really is no reason trying to reason with you (see [3] that was marked as minor with the summary of "typo - overwhelming to overwhelmingly" -- and I am the one with the problem? Look at your own Martyr). And nobody was "locked out" of anything - the page was not protected and that is the only way to lock-down anything around here (other than an IP ban). And if you think I was the only one on Jt's side then you are either blind or insane. --mav
Where did this come from?
- (1944) The first jazz concert is held at the Metropolitan Opera House in New York City; the performers are Louis Armstrong, Benny Goodman, Lionel Hampton, Artie Shaw, [[Roy Eldri
Does it meant the first jazz concert at the Metropolitan Opera House? That, I'd believe but jazz had been around for some forty years before that -- I'm sure there was a "concert" before then. Tokerboy
- I'm updating the year pages from January 18. The former is true - there were other concerts before that one - I will fix. --mav
Mav, I am requesting your intervention as a sysop. Please look at New Imperialism. On 1/18/03, the article went through (by my count) twelve rounds of revert. The reversions seem to go back and forth between two sides: a user called User:Vera Cruz on one side, and User:Tannin, User:172, User:Ortolan88, and myself on the other. If you start about halfway down on the talk page (I know it is tedious but it is worth reading to the end to get a complete picture) you will get a very good idea of what has been going on. Personally, I think the article should be frozen at the most recent pre--Vera Cruz point for a week or two, or people should consider a temporary ban on Vera Cruz. Honestly, I do not make such suggestions lightly -- just please review the case and reach your own conclusion (or if you feel uncomfrotable please forward this request to Danny or another sysop).
By the way, things are looking nasty again on the talk page for Irish potato famine. I noticed you tried to have a calming effect. From User:two16's latest entry, I am not so sure it has worked. But I have had my own troubles with two16 and also with JTD, and I do not think my involvement would be constructive. Slrubenstein
- Well VC (aka Lir), in spite of my aksing him to play nice and lay low, has been re-banned to reflect the consensus of the mailing list. I did not express an opinion either way in the matter because I was hoping VC would further improve over his Lir days (as much as a pain in the ass as VC was, it was a marked improvement compared with Lir). 172 also now seems to be getting things under control on the IPF page. I'm probably damaged goods as far as that dispute goes; both Sv and Two16 think I am blindly bowing to whatever the "Tyrant PhD" (Two16's words) wants. This of course isn't the case but perceptions are often very strong. --mav
mav, just to let you know (because you're much more active in interpersonal things here than I am, I think): there is an intermittent problem some AOL users have where it will appear that they have been blocked from editing one specific article. THis is not possible in the wikipedia software, and is a result of AOL's use of proxies combined with a caching problem. The cause of the problem is an older ban on a different AOL IP. Anyway, I'm just letting you know because it's happened to a few users so far, including Danny, and people have questioned Isis as to why she banned them (when she did not ban them, but someone else, weeks ago). Best, Koyaanis Qatsi
- Thanks for the information - I will pass it along whenever somebody complains about it again. --mav