Talk:Deir Yassin massacre

See /Archive for discussions mostly around Autumn 2003. Evidently these discussions led to a rewrite of the page and are difficult to follow now. Gadykozma 04:52, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Sid Zion, again

I've exercised the following sentence from the text:

His testimony has lately been challenged by Sid Zion of the Zionist Organisation of America and other right-wing Jewish organisations.

(regarding Meir Pa'il's testimony). Meir Pa'il was a general and one of the most respected Israeli public figures. His personal integrity is beyond doubt. Sid Zion is an American right wing nobody. These people would say any old thing if they thought that it is congruent with their twisted view of what's in Israel's interests. If they care so much about us, why don't they take their noses out of our business? In short, this sentence gives a false impression as if there is some controversy about Meir Pa'il. There is none. Gadykozma 09:56, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You wanted some evidence...

“Paradoxically, the Jews say about 250 out of 400 village inhabitants [were killed], while Arab survivors say only 110 of 1,000.”38 A study by Bir Zeit University, based on discussions with each family from the village, arrived at a figure of 107 Arab civilians dead and 12 wounded, in addition to 13 "fighters," evidence that the number of dead was smaller than claimed and that the village did have troops based there." Sharif Kanaana and Nihad Zitawi, "Deir Yassin," Monograph No. 4, Destroyed Palestinian Villages Documentation Project, (Bir Zeit: Documentation Center of Bir Zeit University, 1987), p. 55.

Contrary to claims from Arab propagandists at the time and some since, no evidence has ever been produced that any women were raped. On the contrary, every villager ever interviewed has denied these allegations. Like many of the claims, this was a deliberate propaganda ploy, but one that backfired. Hazam Nusseibi, who worked for the Palestine Broadcasting Service in 1948, admitted being told by Hussein Khalidi, a Palestinian Arab leader, to fabricate the atrocity claims. Abu Mahmud, a Deir Yassin resident in 1948 told Khalidi "there was no rape," but Khalidi replied, "We have to say this, so the Arab armies will come to liberate Palestine from the Jews." Nusseibeh told the BBC 50 years later, "This was our biggest mistake. We did not realize how our people would react. As soon as they heard that women had been raped at Deir Yassin, Palestinians fled in terror." 45"Israel and the Arabs: The 50 Year Conflict," BBC.

According to Irgun leader Menachem Begin, the assault was carried out by 100 members of that organization; other authors say it was as many as 132 men from both groups. Begin stated that a small open truck fitted with a loudspeaker was driven to the entrance of the village before the attack and broadcast a warning to civilians to evacuate the area, which many did. Most writers say the warning was never issued because the truck with the loudspeaker rolled into a ditch before it could broadcast the warning. One of the fighters said, the ditch was filled in and the truck continued on to the village. "One of us called out on the loudspeaker in Arabic, telling the inhabitants to put down their weapons and flee. I don't know if they heard, and I know these appeals had no effect."

Contrary to revisionist histories that the town was filled with peaceful innocents, residents and foreign troops opened fire on the attackers. One fighter described his experience:

My unit stormed and passed the first row of houses. I was among the first to enter the village. There were a few other guys with me, each encouraging the other to advance. At the top of the street I saw a man in khaki clothing running ahead. I thought he was one of ours. I ran after him and told him, "advance to that house." Suddenly he turned around, aimed his rifle and shot. He was an Iraqi soldier. I was hit in the foot.

The battle was ferocious and took several hours. The Irgun suffered 41 casualties, including four dead.

Surprisingly, after the “massacre,” the Irgun escorted a representative of the Red Cross through the town and held a press conference. The New York Times' subsequent description of the battle was essentially the same as Begin's. The Times said more than 200 Arabs were killed, 40 captured and 70 women and children were released. No hint of a massacre appeared in the report.

At least some of the women who were killed became targets because of men who tried to disguise themselves as women. The Irgun commander reported, for example, that the attackers "found men dressed as women and therefore they began to shoot at women who did not hasten to go down to the place designated for gathering the prisoners." Another story was told by a member of the Haganah who overheard a group of Arabs from Deir Yassin who said "the Jews found out that Arab warriors had disguised themselves as women. The Jews searched the women too. One of the people being checked realized he had been caught, took out a pistol and shot the Jewish commander. His friends, crazed with anger, shot in all directions and killed the Arabs in the area."

And so on, and so on... Mike23

So you have learned how to do copy and paste. Congratulations! Please come back when you have read the original sources cited by this article and so have the basis to make an informed report on it. Here's just one morsel for you: you copied "Surprisingly, after the “massacre,” the Irgun escorted a representative of the Red Cross through the town and held a press conference." Perhaps if you knew that the Red Cross representative wrote "All I could think of was the SS troops I had seen in Athens" you would start to realise that there is a little more to the story than you realise. --Zero 11:52, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Terrorism, definitions, and consistency

Jayjg; when we last got into this, in another artice, you wrote: "(cur) (last) 22:58, Aug 11, 2004 Jayjg (Lebanon - the athletes deaths didn't just happen either, nor were they shot by German police; rather, they were actively killed by the terrorists)"

Now, considering the fact the the 'attacks' on civillians: 'The Jewish forces participating in the battle belonged to two Jewish groups widely considered terrorist- the Irgun (Etzel) and the Lehi (the Stern gang). Both groups were known for their direct, aggressive tactics that included attacks on civilians'. In respect to the changes made today, are these not also terrorist attacks? Why is it that the definition of these groups has to be softened in some way?

Is not any attack on a civillian not a terrorist attack in its very nature?

Is there not a contradiction here? In all due respect lets not gloss over the fact that these two groups were terrorist groups (para-military or not). There can be no dispute about this.

If Palestinian attacks against civillians are classified as terrorism, which I believe they are, then so too has to be the actions of these two groups: Irgun (Etzel) and Stern (Lehi ).

I have not changed the revert back, yet... But I am hoping you will do the right thing. In fact, I think the whole paragraph should be re-worded. I will wait to see how you re-phrase it, if you do, but here are two rough suggestions:

"The Irgun (headed by Menachem Begin) and the Stern Gang (headed by Yitzak Shamir [sp]) attacked Deir Yassin, a village with about 750 Palestinian residents. The village lay outside of the area to be assigned by the United Nations to the Jewish State; it had a peaceful reputation. Deir Yassin was slated for occupation under Plan Dalet. The mainstream Jewish defense force, the Haganah, authorized the irregular terrorist forces of the Irgun and the Stern Gang to perform this takeover, which quickly turned into a massacre."

or

"Between 9 and 11 April 1948, over 100 Arab townspeople were massacred by Jewish terrorist paramilitaries in Deir Yassin near Jerusalem, in the British Mandate of Palestine. These Jewish terrorist paramilitaries were called the Irgun (Etzel) and Stern (Lehi ) gangs, and had been responsible for the killings of other civillians in other terrorist operations."

In any case give it some thought, and let me know, or I will change the paragraph[s] myself. I just wanted you to discuss any changes here before we make more changes to a page that has at best been controversial.

In respect and peace.

Joseph 16:24, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

The issue is not whether attacks on civilians are terrorist. The previous sentence already says that the groups are "widely considered terrorist"; the addition of the word "terrorist" before "attacks on civilians" is redundant, since deliberate attacks on civilians by military organizations are terrorist by definition, and since it was just stated in the previous sentence. In addition, terrorist is a highly emotive and controversial word; this article should be about describing the events, not about asserting what is "terrorist" and what is not. Jayjg 16:42, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In response:

Well look at it this way, are they terrorists or not? If they are, how can they be "widely considered terrorist"; please lets just be fair, and consistent...I have been very tolerant when it comes to allowing sometimes slightly inaccurate statements about Palestinians go unchecked in Wikipedia.

In fact I have shown many of these articles and edit comments to others, Library Profesionals, scholars, Arab people I know, and others. You do not want to know what they think. So many have advised me to stop wasting my time here, as the truth will come out one day. Think about it, do you want this Wikipedia project to be respected or not?

If this project is to remain an unbiased objective source of information, even the most unpleasant truths will have to be accepted for what they are. If some people from the Zionist side are ashamed of these actions from the past so be it. I am personally very ashamed of the actions of any Palestinian groups that have taken innocent lives in the past and present.

These guys Irgun and Stern gang members were/are terrorists, and even became heads of the Zionist state. Lets at least be honest about this aspect of history.

It cannot be one way in reference to Palestinian Fedayeen freedom fighter groups, and another way when it comes to Jewish forces freedom fighter groups (I do not know how to phrase it another way) who were/are considered terrorists. Both are the same side of the same coin, killing civillians and innocents is a crime and considered terrorism.

Please correct that paragraph or the introduction.

BTW: I have not done so because I do not want another edit war, I am trying to find a peaceful solution.

Thank you!

Joseph, you are taking this much too hard. The sentence already says they are terrorists. Why does it need to say it twice? You are seeing "denial of terrorism claims" where there is none. Really. They were terrorists. Your addition was removed because of style reasons, not contents.

If you really think the sentence is too weak, just replace the "widely believed" with a stronger text. Don't wait for Jayjg. But use the word terrorist only once.

Oh, and please don't use so much bold in your comments. It's hard to read. Italics is the way to go. Gadykozma 20:14, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Please read Gadykozma's excellent comment carefully. No-one is denying terrorist claims, but there's no need to say it twice in two sentences. The addition added nothing because the point had already been made. Jayjg 21:45, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

OK,look I defer to both of your council, but look I guess when I read it, it struck me as needing clarification, do you want me to do this?

How about I delete - widely considered and replace with:

The Jewish forces participating in the battle belonged to two Jewish terrorist groups - the Irgun (Etzel) and the Lehi (the Stern gang). Both groups were known for their direct, aggressive tactics that included attacks on civilians? Joseph 03:17, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)

Actually, I think that's fair. The crackpots that would have started an edit war over this in February seem to have left Wikipedia... but Jayjg's view is different from mine. Gadykozma 11:06, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Thanks then, it is done, I appreciate your help and wise council with this issue. Joseph 15:21, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)

Irgun was a paramilitary group fighting British occupation; much the way Hizbullah and Hamas describe themselves, except that the Irgun's hands were considerably less bloody. Jayjg 04:02, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

OK, maybe I overdid it when I said Joseph's formulation was fair. I take that back. However, your formulation is too much in the other direction. Consider might be better than believe but still does not really represent the facts, namely, that they were terrorists, and that only the right wing of Israel does not admit that. Both of you, what do you think of my formulation? Gadykozma 04:37, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"generally acknowledged" are weasel words. Who are the people who have "generally acknowledged" this? At least I gave a reference that actually matched the descriptions of these groups in other Wikipedia articles. Jayjg 05:30, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

True, these are weasel words, but "by the British" is POV, since it implies much more contention of this fact than there really is. This is the literal interpretation of events such as the King David Hotel bombing, the murder of Folke Bernadotte, and many others. You are free to suggest a different formulation, as long as it doesn't imply there is a serious disagreement about this issue. Gadykozma 11:45, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

What do you mean "there isn't serious disagreement" on the subject? The King David Hotel was British military headquarters, a legitimate military target i.e. non-terrorist. Are we expanding the definition of terrorist to military targets now? Exactly which "terrorist" activities was the Irgun noted for. By the way, Bernadotte was murdered by Lehi, not the Irgun. Jayjg 14:56, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In the case of Lehi, they seemed to like being called terrorists and repeatedly described themselves that way (using the English word "terror" transliterated into Hebrew). That's why I didn't hesitate to use the word in their article Lehi. I don't recall the Irgun agreeing to the word "terrorist", though if they weren't terrorist the word has little meaning. The mainsteam Zionist organizations such as Mapai called the Irgun terrorists all the time (even while secretly collaborating with them) and so did most of the Jewish press. The headline in the Palestine Post after the King David bombing was "41 dead, 53 injured, 52 missing, in terrorist attack on secretariat". The Jewish Agency and Vaad Leumi are quoted as calling them a "gang of desperados". Almost everyone except the Irgun's active supporters called them terrorists. Despite all this, I would vote against using the word "terrorist" in this article at all. It adds no information and this game of sticking on labels doesn't excite me. --Zero 15:33, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for making that interesting post. I differentiated between Lehi and Irgun for precisely that reason. My issue with the use of historical views of what was a "terrorist" group is that it is not clear to me that the same definition was used 60 years ago as is used today (if we can even find agreement on what the term means today). From what I can tell the meaning back then included any non-governmental group that attacked military targets, which would be much more controversial usage today. As for your final point, I think that is the clincher; is Joseph Saad insisting that in this case we refer to them as "terrorist attacks on civilians" because in other cases deliberate attacks on civilians are not terrorist? If so, then we have a fundamental disagreement on what is or isn't terrorist. If not, then the label adds nothing. Jayjg 15:50, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Zero, not sticking labels is also a POV. You can't really avoid the problem by hiding. Oh, and another thanks for the interesting information from me. Gadykozma 16:38, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I disagree again strongly, and again there is one term being used when these Terrorists, are Zionist and when the Terrorists are Arab, what? So nothing the Irgun or the Stern gang did was terrorist in its very nature, attacking civillains? They are a terrorist group, plain and simple. Deny all you want, it is a lie. The King David hotel was not a military target, come on; you have got to be kidding. The barrel bombs thrown at villages, this too military targetting? Come on, you get real Jayjg

This is not NPOV, the fact is this is getting very frustrating, and quite frankly a waste of time. Only because I am sick of the lies and falsehoods do I fight on this cursed project. What is the next step, now? I disagree, and want some arbitration.

There are three areas that need to be corrected:

1) That these were terrorists groups, in fact there was discussion of a massacre before the actual attack, which proves they were planning on committing an atrocity beforehand. It was the villagers of Givaut Shaul who later on chased the killers away, they were shocked by what they found. It is a well known fact, they were terrorists and attcked a peaceful civillian village. The Haganah records themselves show this.

2) These were not all teens, and it was some sort of adolescent adventure. These were I agree green troops, but there is no proof they were teens and a bunch of kids. They were a gang of terrorists that wanted to show what they could do against a peaceful civillan village to gain acceptance by the IDF. Meir Phal goes into this at some length, he was disgusted by their actions, and no where calls them teens or kids, etc.

3) They did not in fact capture the village, in the end it was the Haganah (a true para-military group which became the IDF), one I might consider terrorist by their actions, but not one in the strictest sense of the word, as it beacme the IDF (sanctioned by a government I do not recognize).

I will wait to hear from you guys for a time, but I want a change or abritration, or should I just simply revert it again? I am trying to avoid an edit war.

Jaygj I resent you telling me to get serious, I am very serious and offended. you change things right away, not discussing anything, and your views are showing their bias again in the writing. Please try to stick to the facts, why can you not just admit a fact? Try for once to see the other side. Joseph 21:22, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)

Made changes, I hope that is ok? tried to keep the original meaning of the article intact. Joseph 16:00, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC)

If you read the above discussion carefully, you will note that I retracted my support of your version, leaving you as the only supporter (out of 4) of qualifying the Irgun and the Lehi as terrorists with no caveats. Therefore I restored the caveat which was accepted by the other three. If you read carefully Wikipedia:Neutral point of view you will agree with us that an article must represent minority views too. Please do not try to convince us they were terrorists again. This is irrelevant. The fact that a certain group views them as non-terrorists should be reflected in this page. If you have some other formulation that represents the minority view as well, don't hesitate to suggest it.

Other changes I did to your text were concerned mostly with style. Please feel free to discuss them. Gadykozma 18:50, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Joseph, if you don't think the King David Hotel was a military target, then I encourage to research this whole topic carefully before attempting to make any more edits. As the article points out, "[t]he hotel was the base for the British Secretariat, the military command, and a branch of the Criminal Investigation Division (police)". Jayjg 20:00, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC) 19:59, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Reply

I am not too concerned about support or lies, in truth I am, what you are all saying now is lies are allowed to be represented as fact see: [Nationmaster.com]

Encyclopedia: Stern Gang - Lehi (Hebrew acronym for Lohamei Herut Israel, "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel") was a radical Jewish underground military group which was terrorist according to both its own description and that of its opponents. It was active during the British Mandate of Palestine prior to the founding of the State of Israel and during the first part of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. The British authorities dubbed it the Stern gang, after its founder, Avraham Stern.

And - Noted Lehi attacks: November 6, 1944 - Lehi assassinates Lord Moyne, a British government representative blamed for the White Paper immigration policy, in Cairo. This act rocked the British government, and outraged Winston Churchill the British Prime Minister. The two assassins were captured, sentenced to death, and executed.

April 9, 1948 - Lehi and Irgun attack Deir Yassin (see Deir Yassin massacre).

September 17, 1948, Lehi assassinated the UN mediator Count Folke Bernadotte. Bernadotte's insistence on the right of the Palestinian refugees to return to their homes was the cause for his murder. The assassination was directed by Yehoshua Zetler and carried out by a four-man team led by Meshulam Markover. The fatal shots were fired by Yehoshua Cohen. Lehi leaders Nathan Yellin-Mor and Matitiahu Schmulevitz were arrested two months after the murder. Most of the suspects involved were released immediately and all of them were granted general amnesty on the 14th of February, 1949.

In 1980 Israel instituted the Lehi ribbon, red, black, grey, pale blue and white which is awarded to former members of the Lehi underground.

Pronunciation: "Le" as in "let", "hi" as in "he" but with a hard guttural "h" similar to German "ch". Accent on first syllable.

Quotation

Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can negate the use of terror as a means of battle.

...We are quite far from moral hesitations on the national battlefield. We see before us the command of the Torah, the most moral teaching in the world: "Obliterate - until destruction." We are particularly far from this sort of hesitation in regard to an enemy whose moral perversion is admitted by all.

But primarily terror is part of our political battle under present conditions and its role is large and great: *It demonstrates, in clear language, to those who listen throughout the world and to our despondent brothers outside the gates of this country of our battle against the true terrorist who hides behind his piles of papers and the laws he has legislated.

*It is not directed against people, it is directed against representatives. Therefore it is effective.

*If it also shakes the Jews in Israel from their complacency, good and well.

Only so will the battle for liberation begin.

-- The Front (Lehi underground newspaper), Issue 2, August 1943. The italicised quotation is a combination of two Biblical references to the Amalekites, Ex. 17:14 and Num. 14:45: Utterly blot out their remembrance...and destroy them completely.

Also see: [JEWISH VIRTUAL LIBRARY] and I quote:

As a result of its activities, Lehi found itself isolated in the yishuv. The yishuv's institutions condemned it and the British police hunted its members. On February 12, 1942, Avraham ("Yair") Stern, the leader of Lehi, was captured in a Tel Aviv apartment and murdered by British detectives. The remaining fighters continued to wage his war, and a new command structure was established. Terrorism continued to be the organization's guideline, in the belief that a series of painful attacks would force the British to re-evaluate the wisdom and price of remaining in Palestine.

On November 6, 1944, two Lehi members assassinated Lord Moyne, the British Minister for Middle East Affairs in Cairo. The perpetrators, Eliyahu Beit-Tzuri and Eliyahu Hakim, were caught, tried by a military tribunal, and hanged on March 23, 1945.

When the Hebrew Resistance Movement was founded in November 1945, Lehi joined it, along with the Haganah and Etzel. Lehi carried out several operations as part of the movement, the largest of which was the bombing of the Haifa railroad workshops in June 1946, in which 11 Lehi members were killed. After the Hebrew Resistance Movement broke up following Etzel's bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on July 22, 1946, Lehi continued with its harassment and attrition policy.

For Irgun-

[Britain's Small Wars]

Kidnappings, Beatings, Murders and Hangings - Attacks by the Irgun and Stern Gang Jewish resistance to the British mandate had begun before the Second World War when Jews extremists set up an organization called, "Irgun Zvia Leumi" (IZL) or simply, "The Irgun". Their aim was to campaign for the establishment of the state of Israel.

At the outbreak of the Second World War most of the Irgun selected to support the Allies and fight the common enemy, "Nazism. "A splinter group led by a Abraham Stern decided to continue the fight against the British. This group, better known as the "Stern" gang, was responsible for many terrorist atrocities and murders in the following decade, though Stern himself was killed in a gunfight with the Palestine Police in the early 1942.

In 1944, with the end the war in sight, Irgun, now under the leadership of Menachem Begin , the future Prime Minister of Israel 1977-83, began to attack the British administration in Palestine, starting with bomb attacks on the immigration offices, tax offices and police stations. Because the war was not yet over these activities met with condemnation even from the Jewish Agency and Haganah, the main Jewish Defense Force, and the forerunner of the Israeli Army. This disapproval did not deter Irgun or the Stern Gang, and in 1944 the Stern gang murdered Lord Moyne the British Minister of state for the Middle East in Cairo, and started a series of bomb attacks on British installations.

In November and 1945 there were some serious Arab Jewish riots in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. These riots were put down by the 3rd Parachute Brigade part of the newly arrived 6th Airborne division. These riots lasted seven days resulting in some loss of life.

During December 1945, the focus of the Jewish attacks shifted to RAF airfields, police stations and armories. There was frequent exchanges of fire and some loss of life on both sides. The High commissioner, Lord Gort , left Palestine in November 1945 and was replaced by another British general Sir Allan Cunningham. Cunningham decided to mount a major blow against the IZL and on the 28 to June 1946, 17,000 British troops flooded into Jerusalem to carry out Operation Agatha. The Jewish Agency offices were raided, arms found and the agency shut down, with a large number of Jews suspected of terrorism being arrested. Jewish terrorists soon started planning the a reprisal for Operation Agatha and made plans for the bombing attack on the King David hotel.

The British response to the King David bombing was another 48 hour cordon and search, code named Operation Shark. This operation was mounted by the men and 6th Airborne division. The aim of Operation shark was to remove the few remaining hard core terrorists left on the scene. British and American press agencies were quick to take the opportunity to sell more newspapers but the result was to place the British Army in a bad light, as in Aden years later, propaganda pictures of British soldiers seemingly being brutal to women and children were splashed in the world newspapers.

Again: [JEWISH VIRTUAL LIBRARY] and I quote:

Etzel rejected the “restraint” policy of the Haganah and carried out armed reprisals against Arabs, which were condemned by the Jewish Agency. Many of its members were arrested by the British authorities; one of them, Shlomo Ben Yosef, was hanged for shooting an Arab bus. After the publication of the White Paper in May 1939, Etzel directed its activities against the British Mandatory autorities.

At the outbreak of World War II, the organization declared a truce, which led to a second split (see Lohamei Herut Yisrael). Etzel members joined the British Army's Palestinian units and later the Jewish Brigade.

From 1943 Etzel was headed by Menachem Begin. In February 1944, Etzel declared war against the British administration. It attacked and blew up government offices, military installations and police stations. The Jewish Agency and the Haganah moved against the Etzel in a campaign nicknamed the Sezon. Etzel joined the Jewish Resistance Movement and after its disintegration in August 1946, Etzel continued attacks on British military and government objectives.

In April 1947, four members of the organization were hanged in Acre prison. In May 1947, Etzel broke into the fortress at Acre and freed 41 prisoners. In July 1947, when 3 other Etzel members were executed, the I.Z.L. hanged two British sergeants.

As far as the King David Hotel, I am willing to modify my position on that, as it was in fact being used (in part for military and administration), but also had many civilians in it as well.

See:The Outrage - The Bombing of the King David Hotel - On the morning of the 22nd of July 1946 a party of between 15 and 20 Jews, dressed as an Arabs entered the King David Hotel. The hotel housed the Secretariat of the Government of Palestine and Headquarters of the British Forces in Palestine and Transjordan. The terrorists were able to enter the building without arousing too much attention because part of the building was still being used as a hotel and other people frequented it. The Jews pretended to be an Arab working party. Having unloading from their lorry several milk churns filled with 225 kilogram's of explosive, they placed them in the basement of the wing of the hotel occupied by the Secretariat.

I only chose this one source, but have found numerous instances of the same thing.

About the other changes, these guys were not teens, please correct,

and also Deir Yassin was a peaceful village, please correct. In fact the villagers at Givaut Shaul [sp], were outraged as many had been dealing with the villagers and had peaceful relation until the attack. Please correct.

I again ask for outside arbitration, if we can make no agreement, facts are facts. If the trend you outline is the way Wikipedia operates, why then are Palestinian POV observations routinely singled out and dubbed not NPOV?

All I am asking for is the truth to be laid out for all to judge and discern for themsleves, not one persons version of the truth. Joseph 20:30, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC)

How many were killed?

The article header says At least 107 Palestinian civilians were killed. Some sources report many more deaths, but their accuracy has been disputed. The body of the article has a long discussion of death numbers, which includes the statement It can now be said with certainty that the death toll did not exceed 120. These statements need to be reconciled. Jayjg 17:02, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

120 is larger than 107 (take my word for it, I'm a mathematician). But seriously, I don't see here any contradiction. The article goes into great length to dispute these other sources so it can finally make that certain claim. Gadykozma 17:23, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, if it fully refutes that, then the summary claim should list the conclusion of the debate, not the start of it. Also, the number given in Israeli massacres article (sorry, the actual name escapes me at the moment) is 100-110. These should all be reconciled; I propose the number be given as 107-120 in all three places. Jayjg 17:29, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In this I agree with Jagj, the number most commonly accepted is around 107-120, we will never know for sure, it may also have been a bit higher, but survivers testimonies, and the evidence show the number in that range somewhere (not all the bodies were recovered). The exhaustive Birzeit study showed that. The numbers were exagerated by both sides, but the flight of refugees because of the Deir Yassin story is very real. Even Begin, the former terrorist, admitted it was worth a division or more I believe.

As far as I know I do not think there were any rapes, no real accounts, it may have been covered up or been hushed up due to shame, but unlikely? Again who knows? A small number of children and adults survived the attacks.

We do know for sure there was quite a bit of widespread looting, and theft of jewellery from dead bodies (cutting rings off, etc.) It is eneough the homes became the property of new Jewish immigrants. The ground was still warm Joseph 21:22, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)