Talk:Arab–Israeli conflict

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Marxists, buddhists, AAs, and the sufferers of appendicitis

Let's not turn this conflict between 2 sides into a world war, other wise rename the article. Q: Why are the Marxists so important? A: because today they reflect mostly anti-Israel POV, therefore should be put into anti-Israel camp. Everything else about their beliefs is irrelevant. Following this stance, Marxists believe that Zionism is a form of colonialism -- who cares? What do the other groups in the title of this section beleive? The text about single state also doesn't belong to this article. Proposals for a Palestinian state perhaps. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 06:36, 28 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

I cut & pasted what was the entire Marxist views section into Talk:Proposals for a Palestinian state ←Humus sapiens←Talk 06:45, 28 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

"in most of which the remaining Jews are discriminated against"- says who?

"Arabs have created twenty two Arab states, in most of which the remaining Jews are discriminated against." Prove it. Even offhand, I can add Mauritania, Somalia, Qatar, Oman, and Bahrain to Morocco and Tunisia, if only because many of them have never had any to discriminate against. In any event, the burden of proof for such a statement is on the one making it. - Mustafaa 23:00, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hi Mustafaa, I'm no expert in this field, but one could easily say that in Egypt and Saudi Arabia such persecution happens. In the countries such as Saudi Arabia, where non-muslim religions are not legal, discrimination against other religions could be assumed since they are outlawed.--Josiah 22:42, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

60% Palestinians in Jordan

'More than half' does not contradict '60%'. Fafo speaks of 44% refugees, I can imagine that not all Palestinians fall into this category. The last link is broken. The following links claim 60% or more: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10]

There are plenty of sources giving lower figures, and some giving higher figures. I think the problem is that there is no agreement on the definitions, especially of who is a Palestinian, also of whether to count Palestinians who are eligible for Jordanian citizenship but didn't officially take it up, and importantly because the Jordanian government regards the issue as sensitive enough to suppress the necessary details from the Jordanian censuses. So people employ various guessing methods. My suggestion is that we quote an academic source on this question. In "The Palestinian-Transjordanian Rift: Economic Might and Political Power in Jordan" by Yitzhak Reiter, The Middle East Journal. Vol. 58, 2004; pg. 72-92:
"The rate of the Palestinian population in Jordan is a controversial and debatable issue in Jordan since figures broken out by ethnic denomination have never officially been published. The estimates vary between 38-83% according to the estimator's extraction. Most scholars in the field estimate the Palestinians as constituting between 50-60% of the Jordanian population."
Can we agree on that? --Zero 15:52, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Sounds plausible to me. - Mustafaa 18:13, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

"Plenty" and "some": can you give any figures? Ditto for "most scholars". As the evidence now stands, I believe that 60% is justified. It is inside Reiter's estimate (the mean of 38% and 83% is 60.5%), as well as Islamic Relief's and Jordan Times'.

You need an actual objection. None of those numbers are Reiter's estimate; they are his report of what other people have estimated. Since he is an expert in the subject far more qualified than you or I to make such a summary, we could do worse than accept his opinion. If you want to know who "most scholars" are, you can write to him. I'll give you one, Asher Susser: The Palestinians in Jordan: Demographic Majority, Political Minority (reprinted in Minorities and the State in the Arab World, Ofra Bengio and Gabriel Ben-Dor (eds.), Lynne Rienner Publishers, Inc., 1999):
"After the annexation of the West Bank the Palestinians had a two-thirds majority in the kingdom. Palestinians constantly migrated from the West Bank to the East Bank (the administrative and economic center), and in the wake of the 1967 war another 300,000 Palestinians left the West Bank and Gaza for the East Bank. In the East Bank alone the Palestinians totalled approximately half of the population. Since the return to Jordan of another 230,000 to 300,000 Palestinians from the Gulf in 1990–1991, they are now definitely a majority of just over half."
Canned bio of Asher Susser: senior research fellow at the Moshe Dayan Center for Middle Eastern and African Studies, a former head of the center, and associate professor in the Department of Middle Eastern and African History at Tel Aviv University. He specializes in the history and politics of Jordan and the Palestinians and religion and state in the Middle East. He is author of Between Jordan and Palestine: A Political Biography of Wasfi al-Tall (1983, in Hebrew), The PLO After the War in Lebanon (1985, in Hebrew), and On Both Banks of the Jordan (1994) and coeditor of At the Core of the Conflict: The Intifada (1992, in Hebrew) and The Hashemites in the Modern Arab World (1995).
I liked your joke about the taking of an average of the minimum and maximum. --Zero 16:44, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Questionable section

I have just read this article. When it says "Arafat, under massive pressure from the Israeli government and their occupation of Palestinian territories, has recently fired moderates when they have spoken out against suicide bombings." it seems to be saying that Israel is pressuring Arafat to fire the moderates who speak out against Suicide Bombings. Am I mistaken in my reading?--Josiah 22:34, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Indeed you are correct in your reading, Josiah. The PLO is under tremendous pressure from the Israelis and also from 'extremist' internal groups like Islamic Jihad and Hamas and paradoxically the pressure is making Arafat make the government more hardline, as there is no political gain in the current situation for Arafat to have doves in his administration and if he has hardliners, they can at the very least put on a strong face against all their opponents. Dissention among high-level leadership just looks bad and isn't tolerated in Israel nor in Palestine. Hauser 21:56 3 August 2004 (NZEST)

Please provide some evidence for your claim that Israel does not support the denouncing of suicide bombings. It seems like a twisted fantasy to claim this, at best.--Josiah 14:38, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

A few pictures

I uploaded a few pictures which are available here under free licences (GFDL and CC-BY-SA). Feel free to ask. Yann 15:41, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

HistoryBuffer

HistoryBuffer, I haven't made any edits on this page except for minor grammar stuff, so it can't be my "propaganda". Please bring proposed changes to Talk: Jayjg 04:08, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)