Talk:List of Slovaks

I don't understand, how do you have the right to Slovakize people, like Mednyászky László or Thököly Imre. They just lived in the former North Hungary as all the Slovaks did. If somebody lived/lives in the today's territory of Slovakia (finalized in 1947) is automatically a Slovak?

I agree. There are many more things in the list pushing it too far. I corrected Kempelen's name, do not translate personal names, please. rado 09:40, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Maximilian Hell was one of dozens of astronomers who observed the 1769 transit of Venus from various parts of the globe. Their collective efforts at this transit (and the previous one in 1761) led to a determination of the parallax and the distance to the Sun. Note the parallax method, by definition, requires at least two separate observations at widely separated points, so it is impossible to single-handedly determine a parallax. Also, it is not accurate to say he was "one of the greatest" astronomers of the 18th century. Not to diminish him in any way, but a quite a few other 18th century astronomers have a considerably greater claim to fame. Curps 01:40, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

This was a quote from a relaible source. I hope you know what you are writing about.

Yes. See the article at Transit of Venus, and the Economist article linked to at the bottom of that page. Maximilian Hell was one of many distinguished scientists who participated in the first international scientific collaboration, going on expeditions to observe the transits of Venus in 1761 and 1769 from as many different parts of the world as possible, in order to determine the Sun's parallax and thereby determine its distance. They all made their observations on the same day (the day of the transit), and the data was collected together to come up with the result. The original wording in the article made it seem as if Maximilian Hell did all this by himself.

I would guess that your source article was not written by an astronomer, so the person did not get the details exactly right. By the way, the next transit of Venus is in only five days (June 8), and it's the first one since 1882. There might be stories about it in the newspaper. Curps 18:35, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Petofi does not belong to Slovak poetry

IMHO, Slovak poetry page should be about *Slovak poetry*, not about poets who might be (controversially) considered Slovaks, but who did not wrote a signle line of Slovak in their life. rado 12:58, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have hoped someone would express this opinion. You can delete him. (I just did not want another edit war) ...Juro 15:52, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

So many saints...

I am surprized by the amount of Slovak saints. Actually, there should be only one saint, who is certain to be a Slovak, and that is St. Gorazd. The martyrs of Košice (Pongratz, Krizhin, Grodziecki) were not Slovaks.

For obvious reasons, all the lists of Slovaks etc. in the Wikipedia are no lists of strictly ethnic Slovaks etc. only and this one is no exception...Juro 23:17, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but how do you define Slovaks then? Since the ethnic composition in territory of present-day Slovakia was much more diverse over the centuries (besides Slavs who may or may not be referred to as Slovaks during the Middle Ages, Hungarians and Germans (Zipsers) gave a fundamental contribution to the cultural landscape of today's Slovakia. In my humble opinion (ethnic identity was a tricky thing in the Middle Ages and the population in the former Kingdom of Hungary shared a common "hungarus" national consciousness), the most important criteria for identifying a person as a "famous Slovak" are the following: 1. Did the person have Slovak ethnic ancestry? 2. Did he/she possess Slovak ethnocultural consciousness (and is this documentable)? By these standards, persons like István Pongrácz (who was a Transylvanian Hungarian nobleman) can be readily excluded from the list, just as for example Maximilian Hell, Wolfgang Kempelen or János Selye who just happened to live and work in an area that was to become Slovakia later on. WiseGentleman 21:13, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Complaint from 195.56.63.199

"Jedlik nem tót, hanem magyar vót. Mint még sokan ezen a listán. Mivan totocskák? Csak nem vagytok féltékenyek?" (It coud be translated as: Jedlik wasn't a slovak, he was Hungarian! And so were many other people on this list. What's up with you, slovakians? Are you envious of us [-> because we had more famous scientists]?)

The fact that I moved this complaint here and translated it - thinking that someone might be interested - does not mean that i agree with this anon user. I've no clue whether Jedlik or other ppl on this list were (or weren't) of Slovakian origin...

Štefan Anián Jedlík was a clear native Non-Magyar (more exactly a Slovak), as anyone who knows languages can see already from the name. The rest shows the contributor's intelligence. Juro 21:39, 30 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As for Jedlík, it may be true, but names are often misleading. For example, from his name, I couldn't find out that former president Rudolf Schuster is a Slovak politician (obviously, because of his german ancestry), or that Martin Van Buren was an American one. And there are cases which are even more complicated - Ján Vlk Kempelen is a good example of this. On DeWikipedia, one can read that Slovak sources state that he was a Slovak, German sources state that he was German, and of course, Hungarian sources state that he was Hungarian. So shall we include him on the List of Hungarians, the List of Slovaks, and on the List of Germans, too? :-) --Ali 21:31, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)~

(1) This was not supposed to be a proof, just a hint. (2) The sentence in the German article stems from me. In reality, Kempelen was German, maybe also Slovak, he was definitely not Hungarian. The problem with Hungarian texts is that they confuse the Kingdom of Hungary with Magyars - they denote everything "Hungarian" and cannot believe then if someone denoted "Hungarian" was in reality no Magyar, which was a very frequent case. Juro 01:24, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Oh I see, I didn't know about that. But anyway, it's sometimes very hard to tell to which nation did some people belong, especially if we don't know anything about their opinion. --Ali 17:17, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That (namely the frequent lack of exact information) is exactly why this topic cannot be taken too strictly here (their personal opinion however is not decisive, more decisive are the parents and the mother tangue) Juro 04:12, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nevertheless, an exact proof would be needed to establish that Jedlik Ányos was still a Slovak, or he had Slovak mother tongue or Slovak self-consciousness. 81.182.209.198 22:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

____

Lipszky János was also a Hungarian person, not a Slowak one. The most recent literature shows his career completely. The Slowaks say he is a Slowak hero, but they had destroyed his house in early 1980's... -- a sceptic H.

They destroyed their house??? What a persuasive argument...Juro 03:35, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Juro, I understand your passion. It was not an argument, it was a fact (they destroyed his house, not as you understood) Is Lipszky mentioned as a Slovak cartographer? Yes. Are the Slowaks proud of him? Yes. Did they solve his house, for a personal or professional museum? Sorry, no. If you doubt in his "Hungarus" self-identification, I search you the proofs. Do you want it? Or you are simply ashamed instead of destroyers?

Thököly, Báthory, Selye

I don't see why these people are listed as Slovakians. The article on Hans Selye states his father was Hungarian, his mother Austrian. The one on Imre Thököly makes no mention of his Slovakian ancestry. The fact he was born in Kežmarok doesn't prove anything. Germans, Hungarians, all kinds of people lived in Kežmarok at that time. As far as Elizabeth Báthory is concerned, her family was from Nyírbátor (she was actually born there), a town in what is today Szabolcs-Szatmár-Bereg, in Hungary proper. She had no Slovakian ancestry whatsoever. Please remove these people from the list.--Tamas 23:09, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed those people from the list and anybody else whose inclusion is tantamount to cultural identity theft (Slovak nobility - yeah, right!!) 81.182.208.161 18:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted your change because the lead of this article states explicitly: "This is a list of Slovaks and of individuals of significance to Slovakia." In other words, not only ethnic Slovaks are included, but the second criterion is significance for the territory of Slovakia. If you want to challenge this basic framework, feel free to discuss your arguments with other editors of this article. But without such a discussion, please do not remove content from Wikipedia. Tankred 20:13, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thököly, Báthory, Kossuth could simply not have been significant to Slovakia because during their lives, Slovakia, as a country or a territory did not exist, period. It is foolish to include Kossuth as a famous Slovak when he is probably the most demonized Hungarian historical figure in Slovak nationalist discourse. The grave-robbing must be simply stopped. 81.182.208.155 03:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just another note, if you want to distinguish between ethnic Slovaks and "people of significance to Slovakia", at least stop Slovakizing their names for Christ' sakes. (Take the "Balasa", as an "ancient Slovak family" for instance from which one of the greatest Hungarian literary figures, Balassi Bálint emerged. Sounds fishy, doesn't it?) 81.182.208.155 03:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It was not me who added the names you mentioned to the article. But those people were certainly significant to Slovakia's history, so I think they should remain a part of the article unless the definition of who should and who should not be included is changed by consensus. You are absolutely right that Slovakia was not politically independent in the 19th century, but I hope you do not claim that it did not exist at all. As for some of the cases you highlighted: Elisabeth Bathory spent most of her life in what is now Slovakia and I doubt she understood the concept of "national" identity in the same way as we do since its Romantic redefinition in the 19th century; Kossuth had Slovak ancestors and his uncle supported the Slovak national movement, though Kossuth strongly identified himself with the Hungarian nation; Balint Balassi wrote poetry also in Slovak, etc. In general, aristocracy in Central Europe used to be multicultural, multilingual, and divided more by political and confessional cleavages than by the so-called ethnicity. Personally, I would prefer all names in their most frequent form, but there is no consensus in this regard. In the articles about Hungarian kings, for instance, the names are sometimes written in their original Latin form, sometimes in their English form, and sometimes in their modern Hungarian form. How would you fix it? Tankred 08:19, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The answer is very simple. Slovakia did not exist as a political or cultural entity until the beginning of the 20th century, when it denoted an occupied part of Northern Hungary (and later on, codified into peace treaties). The list of "famous Slovaks" should be restricted to those persons who have some Slovakian ancestry or Slovak national consciousness. Thus, persons like Benyovszky or Báthory or Kossuth could be excluded from the list. Unfortunately, just as with other nations lacking significant historical figures or any significant history, a tendency exists in Slovakia to appropriate cultural figures from other nations. Take the "Slovak literature" section from Wikipedia as an example where Slovak literary figures born in Thessaloniki (!!!!!) are listed (has Thessaloniki ever been a part of Slovakia by any chance)?

I am sorry if you find my following comment offensive, but I am becoming fed up with the never-ending discussions, in which some editors (I guess the same ones all the time) argue that countries around Hungary miraculously appeared in 1918 despite the fact that their inhabitants had had no other political or cultural identity than Hungarian. I have already seen all sorts of Romantic legends on the Wikipedia’s talk pages, from the alleged Sumerian origin of the Magyars, to the claim that the Magyars flooded the deserted Danube basin even before the Slavs, to the persistent effort to proclaim all the Croats, Slovaks, and Germans living in the former Kingdom of Hungary to be ethnic Magyars. I am sorry, but I have no interest in discussing this nationalistic agenda. You must find yourself another sparing partner. Tankred 10:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As a matter of fact, these countries did not "miraculously appear" but they were artificially created to destroy a thousand year old political, geographic and cultural unity. I am not denying that non-Magyar nationalities (including Slovaks) lived in the Carpathian Basin but I insist that the name "Slovakia" is anachronistic in the Middle Ages, just as the name "France" would be anachronistic to describe Gaul in Roman times. The persons we are discussing here (Balassi, Báthory) could be rightfully called ethnic Magyars not just because of their ethnic origin but also because of their national consciousness.81.182.209.198 22:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please, do not remove content from Wikipedia. It may be considered to be vandalism. I reverted your last change because you are the only editor trying to cripple the article for the sake of your nationalistic POV (more precisely, your belief that Slovakia did not exist before 1918 and it is an artificial entity, established in order to destroy the Greater Hungary). As you know, this is "a list of Slovaks and of individuals of significance to Slovakia". So, there are many cases belonging both to this and to other lists (e.g. Lajos Kossuth who was of Slovak descent but identified himself with the Hungarian nation or Eugene Cernan who was a Slovak American). Many other people included in the list lived in the multicultural Kingdom of Hungary (which had not been a Magyar nation state until its Magyarization started in the 19th century) and they did not understand "ethnic identity" in its modern exclusive form. A typical example is Bálint Balassi who wrote poetry both in Hungarian and in Slovak. If you stick with your ethnic cleansing of this list, you must be consistent and remove content also from other lists. For example, you can find Mircea Eliade (a Romanian scholar) and Charlemagne (a Frankish, not a French Emperor) in the List of French people. Well, maybe you should also consider removal of all the members of the Croatian Zrinski familly from the List of Hungarians. Or you think, they were ethnic Hungarians, as was Charles Robert, an Italian king of Hungary who belonged to the French House of Anjou, spoke Italian with his Italian advisers and Latin with his subjects (yet is included in the List of Hungarians)? Can you see my point? It is absurd to project your modern exclusive notion of ethnic identity to all historical periods and some individuals were significant to several nations. Tankred 10:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The exact fact is that before the Ottoman occupation, the population of Hungary was largely Hungarian-speaking (i. e. Magyar), I am speaking about 80%, this is proven by tax censuses and mainstream historical research. I am sorry if it is painful to hear that Slovakia did not exist for the most part of history (or you would need to come up with an exact historical proof of the name Slovakia before the 20th century). Expressions like "Slovakia in the Middle Ages" or the "Renaissance in Slovakia" or "Slovak Gothic Architecture" or "Slovak nobility" are clearly nationalist POV, not only because the major exponents of art, culture, and history in the respective territory were clearly not Slovak and they have nothing to do with present Slovakia, since Slovak culture, language evolved not earlier than in the 18-19th century in an essentially Hungarian and German cultural soil. Calling Balassi, or Báthory Slovak is just as incorrect as referring to Julius Caesar as a Frenchman. Moreover, the example of Zrínyi is not correct since (despite their Croatian origin), they had a strong Hungarian consciousness just as it is obvious from their writings, whereas it can be hardly proven that Elizabeth Báthory or Jedlik Ányos or Benyovszky for that matter had any Slovak consciousness. I know it is off-topic here but maybe this "cultural identity theft" is the reason why Hungarian schoolgroups were recently attacked by the police in Pozsony because their teachers wanted to show them the Hungarian relics in our ancient coronation town. Sorry if I sound harsh but you should stay with what you have (bryndza, parenica, Jánosik, Stúr, Bernolák, etc.) and stop messing with our millennial history.

Samo

This list also includes "individuals of significance to Slovakia". That is why I think Samo should be included. Neither of medieval rulers can be characterized as having strictly "Slovak" nationality. They spoke a Slavic language and belonged to the Slavic tribe of the Moravians. The modern Slovaks are their descendants. Samo was a Frank, but he ruled the territory of present-day Slovakia and he left here his offspring (at least according to Fredegarius). IMO this is a case similar to many other persons from the list, e.g. Chatam Sofer (a German Jew living in Bratislava) or Jan Selye (a Canadian born in Komarno to Austrian-Hungarian couple). If we include them despite their non-Slovak origin, we should not exclude Samo. Tankred 22:38, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that (1) there were no Slovaks in the 7th century (because there were no Czechs, Poles, Russians etc. before the 8/9/10th century, there were just generally "Slavs"), (2) Samo was explicitely Frankish and (3) the Empire of Samo was only partly in a part of what is today Slovakia - in sum, these are too much "buts" (restrictions) to include him in this list. All the other rulers in the list can be characterized as proto-Slovak or Slovak at least under a certain point of view, but not this one. In other words, including Samo is equivalent to including all rulers of the Kingdom of Hungary and the Austrian monarchy in the list. Juro 22:44, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That is a good point. Tankred 23:08, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A notice to all Slovak nationalists on this site (whether you are supporters of Matica or Jan Slota), I am giving you one week to prove with exact facts that the Hungarian persons you have listed in this article were indeed famous Slovaks, after this deadline, the gloves come off and your entries will be deleted.

Juraj Tóth

Dear 81.182.167.190 and other IPs who see Wikipedia as a war game between nationalists, your attempts to “hungarize” articles about Slovakia and other countries in Central Europe are unbelievable. Why have you removed Juraj Tóth from this list? Indeed he is a Slovak astronomer, born and living in Slovakia, currently working in the Institute of Astronomy of the Slovak Academy of Sciences. Please, stop vandalizing this page. You are welcome to make serious edits, based on your knowledge of the subject. But do not remove content if you have not a slightest idea what it is about. Tankred 19:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

At least you should agree to delete Kossuth from the list since he is the most demonized Hungarian historical figure among Slovak nationalists, most of his statues were destroyed after 1918 in the Felvidék, the remaining ones are subject to constant abuse (Do Kotleba or Slota ring a bell?) 84.2.101.29 19:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Since you have raised no objection, I have removed Kossuth from the list 81.182.208.176 21:32, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I stopped reacting to your offenses in general. If you think this decision gave you carte blanche to POV pushing, you are wrong. Kossuth was of Slovak descent and it is very unfortunate that there are some politicians from the extreme right (Slota and Kotleba that you have mentioned) denying it. However, this is Wikipedia and not their party manifesto, so I do not care much about what they think. I would like also to encourage you to create and consistently use your user account because your IP is dynamic and people who do not know your previous edits (blanking large portions of text, adding non sense, and offending non-Hungarian nationalities at the talk pages) can assume your good faith. Tankred 08:15, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]